So when we gonna change the mounts? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

So when we gonna change the mounts?

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  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    Warclaw brought more cheese, more people scared to fight,ganking, k-trainers, rallybots and took away build diversity.

    PvP wise Warclaw is a disaster.

    If you say so, most havoc/raomers I know haven't had a single problem dealing with the warclaw, and in some cases increased the ammount of small scale fights they've gotten. It might have to do more with other factors BEYOND the warclaw (time of day playing, map, what objectives you own vs enemies). If you have a totally covered map owned by your server(s) chances are you aren't going to find many fights anyway.

  • Anput.4620Anput.4620 Member ✭✭✭

    @JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

    @Anput.4620 said:

    @JonnyForgotten.4276 said:
    On the "mount speed is a nerf to mobile classes" thing: Well, sort of. Don't know if this is true for other classes, but a daredevil with a shortbow and the dash dodge can actually outrun the war kitty, at least in enemy territory (and dang near in friendly territory). Know it is an edge case argument, but there is still a purpose behind really building for movement speed, at least in the context of scouting/roaming. Plus trailing 5-10 mounted opponents behind you across the map is good for the lolz. :)

    Except no because i tried, even with quick pockets you can't.

    No, really, you can. Neglected to mention I was also using the DD heal, SoA, and endurance food, but it is actually possible, although it does mean burning everything you've got to stay ahead.

    I mean yes i kept up for like 3 seconds without being able to land any attacks and burning all my ini and cds which basically makes it useless, if that's what you mean.

  • spectrito.8513spectrito.8513 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karnasis.6892 said:

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    Warclaw brought more cheese, more people scared to fight,ganking, k-trainers, rallybots and took away build diversity.

    PvP wise Warclaw is a disaster.

    If you say so, most havoc/raomers I know haven't had a single problem dealing with the warclaw, and in some cases increased the ammount of small scale fights they've gotten. It might have to do more with other factors BEYOND the warclaw (time of day playing, map, what objectives you own vs enemies). If you have a totally covered map owned by your server(s) chances are you aren't going to find many fights anyway.

    Most roamers i know quitted the game.
    I spent a whole year doing only solo roaming, mostly on green and blue BL's to avoid zergs.
    I find way less fights than i used to pre-mount.
    Roaming wasnt great before, but now its reduced to ganking groups, its just not worth the time and frustration.
    If i didnt like to fight in zergs i would quit like most of my friends did.

  • JonnyForgotten.4276JonnyForgotten.4276 Member ✭✭✭

    @Anput.4620 said:

    @JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

    @Anput.4620 said:

    @JonnyForgotten.4276 said:
    On the "mount speed is a nerf to mobile classes" thing: Well, sort of. Don't know if this is true for other classes, but a daredevil with a shortbow and the dash dodge can actually outrun the war kitty, at least in enemy territory (and dang near in friendly territory). Know it is an edge case argument, but there is still a purpose behind really building for movement speed, at least in the context of scouting/roaming. Plus trailing 5-10 mounted opponents behind you across the map is good for the lolz. :)

    Except no because i tried, even with quick pockets you can't.

    No, really, you can. Neglected to mention I was also using the DD heal, SoA, and endurance food, but it is actually possible, although it does mean burning everything you've got to stay ahead.

    I mean yes i kept up for like 3 seconds without being able to land any attacks and burning all my ini and cds which basically makes it useless, if that's what you mean.

    Ah, I see the misunderstanding here. I am talking about being able to GET AWAY from a mounted group and then circle back to your objective, not chase and down a mounted opponent. THAT pretty much takes getting the drop on them, although I find the steal burst (using DA and the confusion ticks from Trick) does work sometimes.

  • ruller.2084ruller.2084 Member ✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    You know what this is? A roleplaying MMO.

    But for some reason people cant accept the fact that in the dedicated group combat mode, they may need to rely on other players with classes that are better suited to dismount enemies.

    Its weird.

    Open world PvP in a Role Playing game is supposed to be just that, not a mode to taxi from zerg to zerg to PvDoor without actually learning to fight.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Anput.4620 said:
    Just another PvE'er that wants WvW to be a PvE mode.

    I've been playing WvW on Kaineng since the first tournament, but you go right on projecting your biases and insulting people.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • spectrito.8513spectrito.8513 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @Anput.4620 said:
    Just another PvE'er that wants WvW to be a PvE mode.

    I've been playing WvW on Kaineng since the first tournament, but you go right on projecting your biases and insulting people.

    can you borrow me some karma ?

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    Most roamers i know quitted the game.

    Then good? They didn't adapt, so I guess it's fine they quit.

    I spent a whole year doing only solo roaming, mostly on green and blue BL's to avoid zergs.

    A whole year, oh boy.

    I find way less fights than i used to pre-mount.

    You know this can also be affected by lots of factors, in case you missed it. Time of day, how much you own on a map, what tier you are in, if you are fighting relinked servers. Some servers even have weak OCX/EU coverage and have strong NA. This is a factor folks forget when talking about roaming.

    Roaming wasnt great before, but now its reduced to ganking groups, its just not worth the time and frustration.

    *Solo roaming hasn't been great, running in a group of 3 or more isn't bad. I've taken a lot of objectives and have some of the best fights in a small scale roaming group.

    If i didnt like to fight in zergs i would quit like most of my friends did.

    Okay? I need to congratulate you for this?

    @Anput.4620 said:

    Boo-hoo im so sad because i want game balance, look at me, the sad PvP player that wants to PvP in their PvP mode.

    Well, I mean you DID start multiple threads about the warclaw calling for nerfs/removal, so I mean you are crying about it. But hey, instead of thinking about your builds/classes and focusing on how you could POSSIBLY defeat a warclaw rider, you've only called for nerfs. I dunno, condi wrecks a warclaw pretty well, maybe you might wanna try that (worked for me multiple times).

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    @Karnasis.6892 said:

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    Most roamers i know quitted the game.

    Then good? They didn't adapt, so I guess it's fine they quit.

    I spent a whole year doing only solo roaming, mostly on green and blue BL's to avoid zergs.

    A whole year, oh boy.

    I find way less fights than i used to pre-mount.

    You know this can also be affected by lots of factors, in case you missed it. Time of day, how much you own on a map, what tier you are in, if you are fighting relinked servers. Some servers even have weak OCX/EU coverage and have strong NA. This is a factor folks forget when talking about roaming.

    Roaming wasnt great before, but now its reduced to ganking groups, its just not worth the time and frustration.

    *Solo roaming hasn't been great, running in a group of 3 or more isn't bad. I've taken a lot of objectives and have some of the best fights in a small scale roaming group.

    If i didnt like to fight in zergs i would quit like most of my friends did.

    Okay? I need to congratulate you for this?

    @Anput.4620 said:

    Boo-hoo im so sad because i want game balance, look at me, the sad PvP player that wants to PvP in their PvP mode.

    Well, I mean you DID start multiple threads about the warclaw calling for nerfs/removal, so I mean you are crying about it. But hey, instead of thinking about your builds/classes and focusing on how you could POSSIBLY defeat a warclaw rider, you've only called for nerfs. I dunno, condi wrecks a warclaw pretty well, maybe you might wanna try that (worked for me multiple times).

    Make me a video of a DD Tempest with Celestial gear dismounting someone. If you can, your words hold truth. If not...

    Personally I find the mount is immune to most of my attacks, my cast times are too slow to hit a moving mount and my class mechanic being overloads cant stay ontop of a moving mount but after reading your informative post I believe you have the answer or knowledge to back what you say with a video.

    Thanks in advance.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    Personally I find the mount is immune to most of my attacks, my cast times are too slow to hit a moving mount and my class mechanic being overloads cant stay ontop of a moving mount but after reading your informative post I believe you have the answer or knowledge to back what you say with a video.

    Thanks in advance.

    Can't, but not all classes/builds should be good at dismounting, nor should all classes/builds be good at roaming, or zerg play. Some builds will excel over others at specific tasks. That is how games are usually balanced. It's basically how GW2 is "balanced" (especially in WvW, or we would see more build diversity in zerg play after all). I also don't play a roaming ele (becuase while it's good vs other players, I am bad at ele gameplay).

    But it's not impossible for some classes to dismount a warclaw rider. Condi builds ruin a warclaw, and as others have pointed out in previous threads about this mount, it's not impossible. Also, if the person on a warclaw is out and out avoiding you, they might just not be worth your time. Unless you are one of those players that expect free kills. You want to kill someone in WvW now you should have to work for it a little.

    I'm also confused as to why you would run tempest still over weaver, but then again I don't ele so maybe that's lost on me.

    And for context, I've been playing roaming Mesmer builds since Pre-Hot until now. It's how I primarily play WvW. Condi specifically with a dabbling of power from time to time. No I'm not a superior mesmer player, but by far not the worst either. Average. And I can still take down a warclaw with really no issues.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's a possibility of fights not happening every time opposing players pass and at least one would prefer to be doing something else right now than stopping right there to fight. You just don't have to run specific classes to disengage anymore.

    And even if you could easily dismount players, you'd still have to chase them down if they don't have any interest in fighting you right there. They're not obliged to fight you just because they're on foot, and if you're running a troll build they'd be silly to waste their time on you.

    If you actually want fights, figure out where those people are trying to get to and fight them there. Otherwise you're going to have to make do with the dregs that couldn't run fast enough, or the people that actually do want to fight you.

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    You speak of balance as if mounts have been around for 6 years and classes were designed and built around mount play... They werent.

    Right, but just because mounts were added doesn't mean the classes that were good for roaming aren't still good for roaming, just as the classes that were good in zergs haven't changed.

    What we are asking for IS balance.

    Good luck with that, balance is an ever changing wheel of a waste of time. You will never get true balance, because true balance would make the game a giant game of rock paper scissors. For example Necro (Rock) would beat Mesmer (Scissors), and Mesmer would beat Elementalist (Paper), and Elementalist would beat Necro. And the game would be boring and awful. If you fought your opposing class, you'd lose, every time. That's what True Balance would look like. It's awfully boring, and not suited to MMO's.
    And there might be a small group that would absolutely try (and maybe succeed) and going against that norm, but not everyone would succeed in that environment.

    Mounts are great but not at the expense of obliterating classes and play-styles. Just a smidgen of balance can help a lot of players without effecting anything but for what ever reason people insist on "boo hoo you cant kill anyone" mentality without considering I couldn't kill anyone before mounts but now cant even get an engagement.

    They haven't? I have seen the same amount of all classes that used to roam still roaming. And if you couldn't kill anyone BEFORE mounts, then the mount isn't your problem now is it?

    I play Tempest because after playing 32 characters for the past 6 years, Tempest offers a lot of fun just in the build itself. Not only that but the versatility of the class is almost unmatched, with a simple weapon swap I can go from being a solo roamer, havok roamer or zerger.

    Cool

    @Anput.4620 said:

    The sole reason everyone should be able to dismount someone is because otherwise there is a posibility of fights not happening, why shouldn't everyone be able to dismount poeple? Everyone should be able to attack someone and play the game if they want. I have heard of a whole server using it to avoid any fights and then just ktraining at nighttime which is ver uninteractive.

    And who cares if there is a possibility of fights not happening. Overall in the grand scheme if someone walks past another player on their mount and that person doesn't try to pursue a chance at dismounting the other player, then the problem isn't the mount, but that player that didn't even TRY. However as I stated before I'm not against dismount skills, what I am against is any FURTHER nerfs to the mount.

    Also, if that server wants to ktrain, and avoid fights, that's on that server. They would have done it with or without mounts as ktrain'ing isn't a new thing that came out when mounts launched. It's a legitimate thing in wvw to just ktrain, just as is solo roaming, small scale roaming/havok and scouting.

    Working for something also makes zero sense, you don't get a kill when you dismount someone, you get a fight. You work for the kill by winning the fight, not by dismounting them. No one is entitled to a kill, but everyone should be entitled to a fight.

    Lol, no. If I didn't want to fight you on my mesmer, I could easily stealth, mimic, blink, blink away (I wouldn't, I like fights, just saying how easy it could be for me to get away if I wasn't up for it). Just as a thief could disengage at will. Oh and lets not forget Nike warriors and any other super sustain build/class that doesn't interact at all if they don't want to. So no, not everyone is entitled to fight. Mounts

    You also literally can't get close to a mount if they have half a brain and you are roaming in the open, even on my thief i didn't have enough ini left to do anything when trying to keep up, especially if they bolt as soon as you are spotted.

    I haven't had any issues keeping up with a mount player on my mes, but I had a bunch of teleports and blinks. Axe is actually pretty good for this.

    Also about not being worth someones time, i believe every player gives the same about of warscore and lootbags and every player will take your teams objectives aslong as they are alive aren't i correct?

    No, because some die so often they give no xp/loot, and others die infrequently and give better xp and sometimes a loot bag. Also if you are outnumbering another server (or they are just outsumbered) if I recall the give 0 warscore on death

    There is literally no other open world PvP game that offers free safe passage.

    Good for them, this is GW2. It doesn't matter what other games do.

    Mount is clearly overtuned and offers way too much without drawback so we just want it pulled in line to be more balanced. Anyone calling the mount in it's current state balance is either biased or deluded.

    It isn't, I have had no issues getting fights since the mounts, in fact my fights have doubled in some cases as they run back in double the time to fight me. Add a dismount skill and it'll be balanced. After that nothing more needs changed.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    Doesn't matter. Those here who suffer from Warclaw Derangement Syndrome won't ever be happy until the mount is gone. The list of nerfs the mount has received goes unnoticed, and whenever the dismount ability is added to the game, they still won't be happy and will still be posting angry threads about it.

    If hordes of roamers have quit the game, I sure haven't noticed. I have no problems getting fights, whether I'm out alone, running with a few randos, or in a squad. If anything this means lower queue times and more room for people who actually want to contribute to the game mode, rather than just cry like children on the forums.

    But don't let me stop the crying, please continue...

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Doesn't matter. Those here who suffer from Warclaw Derangement Syndrome won't ever be happy until the mount is gone. The list of nerfs the mount has received goes unnoticed, and whenever the dismount ability is added to the game, they still won't be happy and will still be posting angry threads about it.

    Warclaw Derangement Syndrome, can it be a fatal disease (non transferable)?

    If hordes of roamers have quit the game, I sure haven't noticed. I have no problems getting fights, whether I'm out alone, running with a few randos, or in a squad. If anything this means lower queue times and more room for people who actually want to contribute to the game mode, rather than just cry like children on the forums.

    Exactly...

    But don't let me stop the crying, please continue...

    Well, I mean as long as no actual changes post dismount skill arrive, they can cry all day/night.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    When alliances come out lol

  • zengara.8301zengara.8301 Member ✭✭✭

    I honestly don't get it. Why do people want ganking to be stronger o.o?
    People got builds made for blobs, these builds are not good in a 1v1 combat therefor they are trying to reach their blob, yet they are not able to switch fast enough to counter a thief/ranger even though they would defeat them on their other builds.

    If it was actually about skill, or people abusing the mounts to win fights (1v1, roaming or blobs), then I would get it. But this post is directly and only about making ganking targets easier, so they will get dismounted and jumped by xx ppl.....?

    At least this thread is somewhat direct though, and is not trying to hide that to an extreme measure like other threads.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zengara.8301 said:
    I honestly don't get it. Why do people want ganking to be stronger o.o?
    People got builds made for blobs, these builds are not good in a 1v1 combat therefor they are trying to reach their blob, yet they are not able to switch fast enough to counter a thief/ranger even though they would defeat them on their other builds.

    If it was actually about skill, or people abusing the mounts to win fights (1v1, roaming or blobs), then I would get it. But this post is directly and only about making ganking targets easier, so they will get dismounted and jumped by xx ppl.....?

    At least this thread is somewhat direct though, and is not trying to hide that to an extreme measure like other threads.

    Cuz wvw is more than just bobbing,if it weren't it get boring fast. U are right people run builds for blob but others may prefer to run builds for small group or roaming as people prefer to play different roles and player styles in a open world pvp mode. Having more options and diversity within the game mode sets it apart from mode capture conquest :)

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karnasis.6892 said:

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    Warclaw brought more cheese, more people scared to fight,ganking, k-trainers, rallybots and took away build diversity.

    PvP wise Warclaw is a disaster.

    If you say so, most havoc/raomers I know haven't had a single problem dealing with the warclaw, and in some cases increased the ammount of small scale fights they've gotten. It might have to do more with other factors BEYOND the warclaw (time of day playing, map, what objectives you own vs enemies). If you have a totally covered map owned by your server(s) chances are you aren't going to find many fights anyway.

    havoc no, roamers arent the people on thief/ranger/mesmer only..

    no i have no problem dealing with warclaw on thief/ranger (i dont play mesmer much)
    yes i do have massive problem dealing with warclaw on my Ele/warrior (warrior also not playing much so maybe it can deal with it)
    then i read here somewhere maybe ur class not suppose to deal with warclaw.

    fine so what as ele im suppose to deal with?
    range attacks i dont have as D/D build even if i had Range attacks most ele attacks take ages before actually landing
    so basically ur saying ele should beat it from WvW.

    not really, benefits of warclaw is far superior to the downside of being on 1 and getting knocked off..

    maybe they should put warclaw HP to 0 and use instantly the owners HP so all dmg u take is directly on your own HP bar so when ranger/thief (or w/e can do it) pops you off ur insta downstate also, id say insta stomped to make it more funny.
    but thats not fair right? only thing that is fair in WvW is when blobbers can K train their kitten on the map.

    id love to go sPvP but sadly i like the freedom i dont really wanna cap stuff all the time like u have to in sPvP else id be long gone.
    but maybe i should make the switch slowly cus the way wvw is heading isnt the right way either and claiming im wrong is okay but the servers say other wise.

  • zengara.8301zengara.8301 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:
    I honestly don't get it. Why do people want ganking to be stronger o.o?
    People got builds made for blobs, these builds are not good in a 1v1 combat therefor they are trying to reach their blob, yet they are not able to switch fast enough to counter a thief/ranger even though they would defeat them on their other builds.

    If it was actually about skill, or people abusing the mounts to win fights (1v1, roaming or blobs), then I would get it. But this post is directly and only about making ganking targets easier, so they will get dismounted and jumped by xx ppl.....?

    At least this thread is somewhat direct though, and is not trying to hide that to an extreme measure like other threads.

    Cuz wvw is more than just bobbing,if it weren't it get boring fast. U are right people run builds for blob but others may prefer to run builds for small group or roaming as people prefer to play different roles and player styles in a open world pvp mode. Having more options and diversity within the game mode sets it apart from mode capture conquest :)

    Yeah I dont disagree, not even on the previous post I made about roaming. My problem is with the ganking aspect of it (I solo roam myself ). I find it hard to support direct ganking. If a person gets off their mount to fight, I get it. But lower HP on mount, for no other reason but to snipe another person because they are bronze/silver or currently got a wrong build, is really hard for me to support.

    To say it simply, I very much agree on the diversification. And therefor I find it very good that warclaw lets players who want to blob, blob. And those who want to roam/roam. You can still gank people who are trying to capture a point of interest or go 2-3v 5+ for hardcore content, or even roam around better with the mount. What has changed, is that 3 people just snipe 1 bronze player or w/e over and over.
    And people seem to not like that change, which I find weird.

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭

    @reddie.5861 said:

    havoc no, roamers arent the people on thief/ranger/mesmer only..

    I never said these classes were the only roamers

    no i have no problem dealing with warclaw on thief/ranger (i dont play mesmer much)

    Okay? Proving my point that certain classes excel at dealing with the warclaw

    yes i do have massive problem dealing with warclaw on my Ele/warrior (warrior also not playing much so maybe it can deal with it)

    Again, proper balance makes it so not all classes can deal with the warclaw.

    then i read here somewhere maybe ur class not suppose to deal with warclaw.

    fine so what as ele im suppose to deal with?

    Ele's are still great at actual fights (which btw you can easily still get regardless of the warclaw being there or not)

    range attacks i dont have as D/D build even if i had Range attacks most ele attacks take ages before actually landing
    so basically ur saying ele should beat it from WvW.

    No, I'm saying pick your battles, or decide that you should run one class for roaming and another for zerging (I run FB/Ele for Zergs, Mesmer for roaming). Gear isn't hard to get after all now

    not really, benefits of warclaw is far superior to the downside of being on 1 and getting knocked off..

    In your opinion, but builds are out there that can one shot a warclaw. 11k hp really isn't much.

    maybe they should put warclaw HP to 0 and use instantly the owners HP so all dmg u take is directly on your own HP bar so when ranger/thief (or w/e can do it) pops you off ur insta downstate also, id say insta stomped to make it more funny.
    but thats not fair right? only thing that is fair in WvW is when blobbers can K train their kitten on the map.

    Dunno where you are getting this idea from, because that's not at all what I'm saying

    id love to go sPvP but sadly i like the freedom i dont really wanna cap stuff all the time like u have to in sPvP else id be long gone.
    but maybe i should make the switch slowly cus the way wvw is heading isnt the right way either and claiming im wrong is okay but the servers say other wise.

    Servers haven't been saying that at all, in fact a good portion of the servers don't care anymore about the Warclaw.... it's the roamers now that can't get easy kills (yes kills, not fights as some claim) that are upset. I got 2 fights in 20 minutes this morning, warclaw had nothing to do with it either. And one 3 person group ran from me and 2 others on the warclaw. I said "Guess they don't want to play with me" and moved on with my life. Those 3 probably would have ran away regardless of the warclaw existing or not.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:
    I honestly don't get it. Why do people want ganking to be stronger o.o?

    Spoilers: they're the gankers, and they don't like that Anet has deprived them of easy prey. Literally almost all the complaints about the warclaw boil down to that.

    That's a bingo.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • zengara.8301zengara.8301 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:
    I honestly don't get it. Why do people want ganking to be stronger o.o?

    Spoilers: they're the gankers, and they don't like that Anet has deprived them of easy prey. Literally almost all the complaints about the warclaw boil down to that.

    Suddenly everyone who wants a fair chance to get a fight is a ganker lol.

    Come on now, how can you not see that the mount helps the real "gankers" more than regular players? I mean, to get a dismount you need to deal a quick burst of damage before the target runs away (which is easier with a group rather than solo), and when giving chase to someone the best way to prevent them from escaping is to keep them in combat while the rest of the group mounts up and catches up to them. If anything, the mounts makes ganking easier to the point the "ungankable" classes like thief, mesmer, warrior or ranger don't stand a chance with how much free mobility it gives.

    The way I see it, the mount forces you to seek help from a group in order to get a dismount. Hell, sometimes not even a zerg is enough to get a dismount, I've run through them with no problems while they were sieging our objectives because of how broken it is.

    But ok, keep telling yourselves the same lies, living in denial of what the mount actually accomplishes. Using "gankers" as an excuse to keep your new toy in its current broken, non-interactive state.

    Living up to the name I see xDD
    Your whole comment is kinda funny, because you are trying to defend the idea that it isnt gankers that are being nerfed, but other players, yet somehow argue yourself out of that, by stating that gankers have to work together to see any result sometimes and then argue that even amazingly huge numbers have problems with catching a warclaw. If I have to completely honest, funny af to read xD.

    So.......what you are saying is that Warclaw made it harder for gankers, because now it requires 5-10 gankers, to maybe sometimes catch 1 person who want to run away o.o?

  • Creaitov.6328Creaitov.6328 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    @zengara.8301 said:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:
    I honestly don't get it. Why do people want ganking to be stronger o.o?

    Spoilers: they're the gankers, and they don't like that Anet has deprived them of easy prey. Literally almost all the complaints about the warclaw boil down to that.

    Suddenly everyone who wants a fair chance to get a fight is a ganker lol.

    Come on now, how can you not see that the mount helps the real "gankers" more than regular players? I mean, to get a dismount you need to deal a quick burst of damage before the target runs away (which is easier with a group rather than solo), and when giving chase to someone the best way to prevent them from escaping is to keep them in combat while the rest of the group mounts up and catches up to them. If anything, the mounts makes ganking easier to the point the "ungankable" classes like thief, mesmer, warrior or ranger don't stand a chance with how much free mobility it gives.

    The way I see it, the mount forces you to seek help from a group in order to get a dismount. Hell, sometimes not even a zerg is enough to get a dismount, I've run through them with no problems while they were sieging our objectives because of how broken it is.

    But ok, keep telling yourselves the same lies, living in denial of what the mount actually accomplishes. Using "gankers" as an excuse to keep your new toy in its current broken, non-interactive state.

    Living up to the name I see xDD
    Your whole comment is kinda funny, because you are trying to defend the idea that it isnt gankers that are being nerfed, but other players, yet somehow argue yourself out of that, by stating that gankers have to work together to see any result sometimes and then argue that even amazingly huge numbers have problems with catching a warclaw. If I have to completely honest, funny af to read xD.

    So.......what you are saying is that Warclaw made it harder for gankers, because now it requires 5-10 gankers, to maybe sometimes catch 1 person who want to run away o.o?

    No, I'm saying that a single person can't dismount a warclaw reliably while gankers are still capable of ganking people with no problems, even easier now with the warclaw.

    Regarding the zerg part, you can't compare them to a gank group. They have a completely different focus. I mentioned zergs because with all the AoE they have, specially during a siege, going through them should be a death sentence yet with the warclaw you can do that pretty easily with no consequences. I guess I should've specified.

    In any case, if for some reason an angry zerg wants to get you instead of capturing an objective, they only need to focus fire you for the dismount (for example the hammer revs) and then you're dead. It doesn't matter that the blob as a whole lacks mobility, they just need to mount up and get you while you're still in combat. I've been there. One time I even got chased from NWT to garri west gate in alpine borderlands by a zerg, only because this one guy kept me in combat while the rest catched up to me with the mount (I was playing a chrono build that allowed me to kite and survive for a long time but clearly not enough to escape the stupid mount boosted zerg).

    So in conclusion, the mount makes it easier for gankers. Don't try to change what I said.

  • Anput.4620Anput.4620 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    It is funny that poeple are waving the word ganker around framing it as a negative when there isn't any logical reason on what they refer to ganking is negative making all their arguments empty really.

    Roaming is just another playstyle, even if you only care about killing randoms, nothing bad about that, don't make it sound like it is because it is the sole "argument" yall have.

    Ganking also means outnumbering or +1ing in most games, it's only use in a 1v1 is to indicate a max level killing a non-max level so can we start saying engaging in single combat now?

  • zengara.8301zengara.8301 Member ✭✭✭

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:
    I honestly don't get it. Why do people want ganking to be stronger o.o?

    Spoilers: they're the gankers, and they don't like that Anet has deprived them of easy prey. Literally almost all the complaints about the warclaw boil down to that.

    Suddenly everyone who wants a fair chance to get a fight is a ganker lol.

    Come on now, how can you not see that the mount helps the real "gankers" more than regular players? I mean, to get a dismount you need to deal a quick burst of damage before the target runs away (which is easier with a group rather than solo), and when giving chase to someone the best way to prevent them from escaping is to keep them in combat while the rest of the group mounts up and catches up to them. If anything, the mounts makes ganking easier to the point the "ungankable" classes like thief, mesmer, warrior or ranger don't stand a chance with how much free mobility it gives.

    The way I see it, the mount forces you to seek help from a group in order to get a dismount. Hell, sometimes not even a zerg is enough to get a dismount, I've run through them with no problems while they were sieging our objectives because of how broken it is.

    But ok, keep telling yourselves the same lies, living in denial of what the mount actually accomplishes. Using "gankers" as an excuse to keep your new toy in its current broken, non-interactive state.

    Living up to the name I see xDD
    Your whole comment is kinda funny, because you are trying to defend the idea that it isnt gankers that are being nerfed, but other players, yet somehow argue yourself out of that, by stating that gankers have to work together to see any result sometimes and then argue that even amazingly huge numbers have problems with catching a warclaw. If I have to completely honest, funny af to read xD.

    So.......what you are saying is that Warclaw made it harder for gankers, because now it requires 5-10 gankers, to maybe sometimes catch 1 person who want to run away o.o?

    No, I'm saying that a single person can't dismount a warclaw reliably while gankers are still capable of ganking people with no problems, even easier now with the warclaw.

    Regarding the zerg part, you can't compare them to a gank group. They have a completely different focus. I mentioned zergs because with all the AoE they have, specially during a siege, going through them should be a death sentence yet with the warclaw you can do that pretty easily with no consequences. I guess I should've specified.

    In any case, if for some reason an angry zerg wants to get you instead of capturing an objective, they only need to focus fire you for the dismount (for example the hammer revs) and then you're dead. It doesn't matter that the blob as a whole lacks mobility, they just need to mount up and get you while you're still in combat. I've been there. One time I even got chased from NWT to garri west gate in alpine borderlands by a zerg, only because this one guy kept me in combat while the rest catched up to me with the mount (I was playing a chrono build that allowed me to kite and survive for a long time but clearly not enough to escape the stupid mount boosted zerg).

    So in conclusion, the mount makes it easier for gankers. Don't try to change what I said.

    I think you are mistaken rare scenarios with how things work really in game, and therefor missed everything I wrote.....I will try to explain it in greater detail in this scenario then....

    Like how many of these groups of 5+ do you think are generally around picking people off, because they figured out it is easiere to gank together, and how many of them are simply just defending their own camps/towers or roaming together to cap towers/camps? (personally only seen 1-2 actual ganking groups, that are comparable with actual gankers that basically want to kill people bronze/silver and almost nothing else but that and run away.

    And arent people only able to create these group ganking in their own field, since they would need to catch up with the other person in the first place, would like to see anything that proves that logic wrong, personally got a lot of hours roaming on twitch, I can showcase a lot of people grouping together doing exactly as you described, hunting me down....but the difference here is that they are defending their stuff, not actually ganking, and when people are on my field I can easily escape, even when they try to burst me down, literally dont think ive died yet by random people running around on my field of the map and me trying to escape.

    That part is called defenders advantage, in RTS games, which is pretty different from actually ganking....

    If there are ganking groups just running around killing people off whom are trying to do something else, like PPT/run dollies/run to zerg, then sure I get your logic, but the problem is that I have not seen that....Thiefs/mesmers/rangers used to run to players/stealth to them and literally be able and did kill bronze/silver players whom are just trying to reach their blob from SM or between garri/bay, between garri hills etc....

    Now, that happens rarely. (Maybe they decided to group together and therefor are less spread, idk dude...)

    And in the end, even if we go so far to say that there are a lot of them. Wouldn't it no matter what strengthen these groups of gankers, if the warclaw got lower HP, they can kill the warclaw faster and hunt them down easier? Your argument is that these groups are stronger now because of the warclaw, but that does not seem logically at all. If they are able to hunt you down with a warclaw, by dealing enough dmg to your warclaw in the first place while you got 3 dodges and no CC can stop you + you got more speed than them, wouldnt you already be dead in scenarios where you are on equal footing????

    ~Like in a scenario where you are literally running from your mirror, you would not be able to escape, but with defenders advantage, you should be? (this is rare ganking scenario, not a silver/bronze player just trying to reach their blob, which I was initially talking about, but since we are here....why not create this "If I just lived in this timeline" theory) (By that I meant that if 5 people are able to run you down in a scenario where you got defenders advantage or are on equal speed, then obviously they would be able to without it ----your mirror + CC=you stuck etc---)

    Simply put, do you want Warclaw to have more HP, since you dont want these groups to be able to burst you down in your own scenario? Or do you actually think that you would be able to escape another group of chrono/war/thief with a lot less dodges and run through literally every CC in the game?

    I honestly dont get your argument, in the end no matter what, less HP or no mount will just make the groups have it easier bursting the warclaw/you down, this whole argument seems very much "to come close to what I mentioned previously on this thread".

    Wrote this a lot, but I got to make it very clear, this whole argument is following the idea that in this rare scenario with some ganking group, only there to kill random people on your field on the map like between Garri - bay/hills, like the good old days with stealth thief and mesmers just around 5+ of them, not there to actually cap anything, just to hunt you successfully down.....

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    @Anput.4620 said:
    It is funny that poeple are waving the word ganker around framing it as a negative when there isn't any logical reason on what they refer to ganking is negative making all their arguments empty really.

    Roaming is just another playstyle, even if you only care about killing randoms, nothing bad about that, don't make it sound like it is because it is the sole "argument" yall have.

    Ganking also means outnumbering or +1ing in most games, it's only use in a 1v1 is to indicate a max level killing a non-max level so can we start saying engaging in single combat now?

    Not to mention people keep saying roaming doesnt exist anymore because everyone left, so whats even the argument here to begin with?

    GW2: Schrödinger Edition

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Doesn't matter. Those here who suffer from Warclaw Derangement Syndrome won't ever be happy until the mount is gone.

    You are wrong here. The Cat should stay. As it was asked in the beginning. As an alternative traveling method. Without supplemental speed. Without attack power. Without any defense. Unable to influence the outcome of a battle in any way.

    If hordes of roamers have quit the game, I sure haven't noticed. I have no problems getting fights, whether I'm out alone, running with a few randos, or in a squad. If anything this means lower queue times and more room for people who actually want to contribute to the game mode, rather than just cry like children on the forums.

    To notice this you should play the WvW. Not only to login into WvW, sit on the WarCat, run from every fight, capture a camp or two and then leave, saying that no roamers left this game mode. I saw that even if the roamers left the game you are able to see the positive aspect of this - lower queue times =). I saw this before - less players in WvW that means less time on queue - less dangerous encounters with "the gankers" - more enjoyment in the 15-20 minutes we, the PvE'rs are in WvW. You are one of the persons considering that less players in WvW can solve a lot of problems - from lag issues to complains regarding the status of WvW. An universal medicine.

    Well, in my opinion less players in WvW is not something good. Even if the PvE mount fan base will have an easier time completing the "Big Spender" task for the daily.

    But don't let me stop the crying, please continue...

    What? Be patient, please. If notthing good happens (I mean good for the WvW, not good for ANet or for the economy or for the PvE) the cry will stop. Because nobody will be left there to cry.

  • Creaitov.6328Creaitov.6328 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    Oof a wall of text.

    @zengara.8301 said:
    I think you are mistaken rare scenarios with how things work really in game, and therefor missed everything I wrote.....I will try to explain it in greater detail in this scenario then....

    Like how many of these groups of 5+ do you think are generally around picking people off, because they figured out it is easiere to gank together, and how many of them are simply just defending their own camps/towers or roaming together to cap towers/camps? (personally only seen 1-2 actual ganking groups, that are comparable with actual gankers that basically want to kill people bronze/silver and almost nothing else but that and run away.

    Irrelevant. The issue here is the effects of the mount on ganking and regular combat, not if ganking is popular or whatever. But if you're interested to know, just today I got jumped on by 5+ people while capping a sentry lol. And then the same group chased me around for a while after they flipped a camp. Managed to escape in both situations because I was running PU mesmer :^) but not everyone is able to get 9s+ of stealth to get ooc to remount and run away.

    And arent people only able to create these group ganking in their own field, since they would need to catch up with the other person in the first place, would like to see anything that proves that logic wrong, personally got a lot of hours roaming on twitch, I can showcase a lot of people grouping together doing exactly as you described, hunting me down....but the difference here is that they are defending their stuff, not actually ganking, and when people are on my field I can easily escape, even when they try to burst me down, literally dont think ive died yet by random people running around on my field of the map and me trying to escape.

    That part is called defenders advantage, in RTS games, which is pretty different from actually ganking....

    I agree that a group of people defending their objectives are not ganking, they're just helping their team. But regarding "defender's advantage", it is useless if someone gets the jump on you and you can't make use of the little benefits you get from being in your own land. Not only that, but there are situations where you need to be on foot, like for example if you're capturing a sentry, running some dolyaks while giving them buffs, etc. In any of those scenarios you're completely vulnerable. And remember that objective ownership is not static. If there is a small group running around, chances are they're going to flip your stuff rendering this small advantage useless.

    If there are ganking groups just running around killing people off whom are trying to do something else, like PPT/run dollies/run to zerg, then sure I get your logic, but the problem is that I have not seen that....Thiefs/mesmers/rangers used to run to players/stealth to them and literally be able and did kill bronze/silver players whom are just trying to reach their blob from SM or between garri/bay, between garri hills etc....

    Now, that happens rarely. (Maybe they decided to group together and therefor are less spread, idk dude...)

    I kinda agree. One of the good things about the warclaw is the disappearance of permastealth oneshot backstab DE. Problem is, by giving players this "safety net" you're making it so even less builds can actually start a fight, while the usual "ganking" classes still have a chance to start fights, albeit with a much higher cost (pretty much all of your ini as a thief or a big amount of your burst cds as mesmer). The case of ranger is pretty funny because sic em + rapid fire has enough range to catch a escaping mount and since its a multi hit attack it doesn't care about the 10k health bar, it will just keep hitting you when you get dismounted.

    In any case, I don't see anything wrong with killing a player protecting a dolyak or running back to their zerg. Believe it or not your goal in WvW is to help your team win and killing dolly runners (and the dollys) and lone zerglings is a part of that. Blocking the enemy of supplies and reinforcements IS a valid strategy.

    So yeah, in short: the warclaw excels at discouraging combat and it severely limits the amount of builds that can actually start fights, a lot of them which happen to be "ganking" builds.

    And in the end, even if we go so far to say that there are a lot of them. Wouldn't it no matter what strengthen these groups of gankers, if the warclaw got lower HP, they can kill the warclaw faster and hunt them down easier? Your argument is that these groups are stronger now because of the warclaw, but that does not seem logically at all. If they are able to hunt you down with a warclaw, by dealing enough dmg to your warclaw in the first place while you got 3 dodges and no CC can stop you + you got more speed than them, wouldnt you already be dead in scenarios where you are on equal footing????

    If equal footing means literally on foot, then no, it depends on how much mobility you have compared to the people chasing you and how you manage your defensive CDs. If it means equal movespeed on the warclaw, then I guess in a perfect world situation where you see the gankers coming and you both start running at the same time they will never catch you, but it doesn't always work like this. You have to remember that people dismount with their class skills, not the warclaw itself, so the only thing the warclaw needs to do for them is to be fast enough to get in range of their burst. Regarding the evades, they just need to either bait them or to gapclose after them to stick to you. D/P thief for example has a pretty good time doing this with shadow shot and steal.

    As I said before, the amount of builds that can dismount a player is small. Lowering the warclaw's HP would help with this situation without making "gankers" stronger because they can already dismount you in the first place.

    ~Like in a scenario where you are literally running from your mirror, you would not be able to escape, but with defenders advantage, you should be? (this is rare ganking scenario, not a silver/bronze player just trying to reach their blob, which I was initially talking about, but since we are here....why not create this "If I just lived in this timeline" theory) (By that I meant that if 5 people are able to run you down in a scenario where you got defenders advantage or are on equal speed, then obviously they would be able to without it ----your mirror + CC=you stuck etc---)

    If I'm escaping from my mirror we would be running for an infinity because I would not use my evades until they dismount lol, because my dismounted self doesn't have the tools to dismount a escaping warclaw with at least 1 evade up (shows how broken the warclaw is). I don't really get the point you're trying to make here.

    Simply put, do you want Warclaw to have more HP, since you dont want these groups to be able to burst you down in your own scenario? Or do you actually think that you would be able to escape another group of chrono/war/thief with a lot less dodges and run through literally every CC in the game?

    No. Give it less HP and dodges, maybe even less movespeed. As I have said before, for "gankers" it doesn't really matter but for everyone else it helps a lot.

    I honestly dont get your argument, in the end no matter what, less HP or no mount will just make the groups have it easier bursting the warclaw/you down, this whole argument seems very much "to come close to what I mentioned previously on this thread".

    I explained earlier why this is not the case. On foot its a situation of your build vs the chasing group builds. In fact if you manage to run far enough to the point the chasing group gets split up and you end up alone with 1 or 2 of their "fast" chasers, chances are you can turn around, down one of them and then resume the chase. With warclaw this is not possible because the people left behind get ooc and then remount to catch up.

    Wrote this a lot, but I got to make it very clear, this whole argument is following the idea that in this rare scenario with some ganking group, only there to kill random people on your field on the map like between Garri - bay/hills, like the good old days with stealth thief and mesmers just around 5+ of them, not there to actually cap anything, just to hunt you successfully down.....

    Funny enough the part where you want to make it very clear is the part I understood the least lol.

    For reference, I didn't complain about gankers, I don't even care about them. In fact, I find the term kinda out of place considering WvW is mostly a objective based gamemode with open world PvP so it is to be expected to get into outnumbered fights sometimes, even if it is against your will. Its not like WoW where you're questing and suddenly a group of rogues or a max level player kills you out of nowhere for no reason.

    What I did was complain about the people that call everyone that wants the warclaw to be nerfed to reasonable levels a "ganker", which in my opinion is a very bad argument.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This whole thread amounts to players playing together in a open world pvp mode that allows multiple playstyles and a more diverse combat than the conquest pvp mode. This is the reason for alot of players choosing wvw over conquest. The players that prefer zerging have chosen the fotm meta zerg cheese class/builds that are not equiped with the tools to deal with roaming classes. On the other side of things players that prefer roaming chose the fotm cheese class/builds that are equiped for burst and small scale fights but are inadequate for zerging. Neither side was or is wrong for spending what game time they have on thier prefered playstyle. Yes its annoying when built for zerging to be caught off guard and downed by a roamer on route to a zerg but like anything take steps to avoid it if it bothers u so much, As a frequent reaper player even I was able to take utilities to help avoid fights or areas on route to the zerg. Just as zergers arent good roam builds roam builds arent good zerg builds and their not complaining about getting wrecked every time the attempt to join a zerg as they know thier class or build isn't optimal for it. Both playstyles are as valid as the other,people need to stop thinking thier prefered playstyle is the only right way and that the other is wrong because it interferes with that playstyle. After all if it didnt the playstyles wouldn't be adding much diversity would they? War claw should have been implemented in a way that allows the qol mobility for slow zerg classes to get to zergs but while also not disrupting the roaming playstyle of intercepting zergers en route back to thier zerg which is a valid way to help ur server as a roamer without actively being in the zerg.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:
    I honestly don't get it. Why do people want ganking to be stronger o.o?

    Spoilers: they're the gankers, and they don't like that Anet has deprived them of easy prey. Literally almost all the complaints about the warclaw boil down to that.

    Suddenly everyone who wants a fair chance to get a fight is a ganker lol.

    Come on now, how can you not see that the mount helps the real "gankers" more than regular players? I mean, to get a dismount you need to deal a quick burst of damage before the target runs away (which is easier with a group rather than solo), and when giving chase to someone the best way to prevent them from escaping is to keep them in combat while the rest of the group mounts up and catches up to them. If anything, the mounts makes ganking easier to the point the "ungankable" classes like thief, mesmer, warrior or ranger don't stand a chance with how much free mobility it gives.

    The way I see it, the mount forces you to seek help from a group in order to get a dismount. Hell, sometimes not even a zerg is enough to get a dismount, I've run through them with no problems while they were sieging our objectives because of how broken it is.

    But ok, keep telling yourselves the same lies, living in denial of what the mount actually accomplishes. Using "gankers" as an excuse to keep your new toy in its current broken, non-interactive state.

    Living up to the name I see xDD
    Your whole comment is kinda funny, because you are trying to defend the idea that it isnt gankers that are being nerfed, but other players, yet somehow argue yourself out of that, by stating that gankers have to work together to see any result sometimes and then argue that even amazingly huge numbers have problems with catching a warclaw. If I have to completely honest, funny af to read xD.

    So.......what you are saying is that Warclaw made it harder for gankers, because now it requires 5-10 gankers, to maybe sometimes catch 1 person who want to run away o.o?

    No, I'm saying that a single person can't dismount a warclaw reliably while gankers are still capable of ganking people with no problems, even easier now with the warclaw.

    Regarding the zerg part, you can't compare them to a gank group. They have a completely different focus. I mentioned zergs because with all the AoE they have, specially during a siege, going through them should be a death sentence yet with the warclaw you can do that pretty easily with no consequences. I guess I should've specified.

    In any case, if for some reason an angry zerg wants to get you instead of capturing an objective, they only need to focus fire you for the dismount (for example the hammer revs) and then you're dead. It doesn't matter that the blob as a whole lacks mobility, they just need to mount up and get you while you're still in combat. I've been there. One time I even got chased from NWT to garri west gate in alpine borderlands by a zerg, only because this one guy kept me in combat while the rest catched up to me with the mount (I was playing a chrono build that allowed me to kite and survive for a long time but clearly not enough to escape the stupid mount boosted zerg).

    So in conclusion, the mount makes it easier for gankers. Don't try to change what I said.

    wait so because some1 kept you in combat and rest caught up to you it made it easier for gankers?
    my god u on chrono vs me on thief u can not get away from me even if u get a headstart.

    ill port straight up youre kitten even if i cant target you ill use few npc's in WvW to use ports on to catch up faster, this mount doesnt change anything for gankers beside that people have extra +10k HP and 3 dodges which gives the person on it more chances to get away. but moment u get popped off ur still dead.

    whole point of dumb warclaw is.
    immunity to CC <-- helps vs blob fight and gankers
    3 dodges while shouldnt have any <-- helps vs blob fight and gankers
    way to fast for WvW <-- helps vs blob fights and gankers
    extra HP bar. <- helps vs blob fights and gankers

    maybe this helps u?

    when i do raid with guild i often use warclaw to take first few random aoe hits cus o hai im thief why shouldnt i use this extra HP while it has no downsides?
    i use it also to have immunity to CC
    the dodges i use to dodge tru other blob so i can go directly for weak classes in the back while i dont have to use shadowstep/stealth to go through em safetly
    the speed it helps alot when deffending garri for example ur back so fast u can just thin out ur enemy blob slowly cus u get back faster anyway.

    so did i add enough downsides for blobbing now to realise warclaw doesnt really add anything good?

    i see people deffending the mount here which is all okay for me im aware people enjoy it but they dont give me a legit reason why warclaw is a good thing for wvw.

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    @reddie.5861 said:

    i see people deffending the mount here which is all okay for me im aware people enjoy it but they dont give me a legit reason why warclaw is a good thing for wvw.

    The real answer is that it's neither good or bad for WvW, so I'm not sure what answer you are looking for or an answer you will accept.

    The honest reason it was added (beyond microtransactions) is that it shakes up WvW. The problem is different people are looking for WvW changes from different places. We all want alliances, but barring that there are some players wanting new maps, some just want "better balance" whatever that means (see previous comments on True Balance), some just want the DBL gone, and some want just a flat plain with no objectives so they can GvG all day long. I'm just saying that the Warclaw was added to change WvW's dynamic much like gliding was. Is it good or bad for WvW.... who knows. It's all subjective. Personally I find it fun.

    When gliding was added, among the other legit issues that caused, roamers cried out then just as they do now that gliding made "uninteractive game play" because if they can just glide from you, they don't have to fight. We are LITERALLY repeating history on these forums. That is why I have been advocating adapting to the new dynamic because we did to gliding. The only reason people are upset is that it does something more than just point a to point b.

    Keep in mind that that's how mounts are designed in GW2 unlike other games, so I see why they added more functionality to them in WvW. But different people are upset about different aspects of the mount. Some hate the speed, some hate the dodges, some hate the immunity of CC and a small subsection of people hate all of it. A good portion of all of these problems will be dealt with with the dismount skill coming in the future. And before anyone says we can dodge it and it'll be a waste of time, you don't know how it will be implemented yet. We have ZERO information on how it works, so maybe we can't dodge it.

  • zengara.8301zengara.8301 Member ✭✭✭

    @Creaitov.6328 said:
    Oof a wall of text.

    @zengara.8301 said:
    I think you are mistaken rare scenarios with how things work really in game, and therefor missed everything I wrote.....I will try to explain it in greater detail in this scenario then....

    Like how many of these groups of 5+ do you think are generally around picking people off, because they figured out it is easiere to gank together, and how many of them are simply just defending their own camps/towers or roaming together to cap towers/camps? (personally only seen 1-2 actual ganking groups, that are comparable with actual gankers that basically want to kill people bronze/silver and almost nothing else but that and run away.

    Irrelevant. The issue here is the effects of the mount on ganking and regular combat, not if ganking is popular or whatever. But if you're interested to know, just today I got jumped on by 5+ people while capping a sentry lol. And then the same group chased me around for a while after they flipped a camp. Managed to escape in both situations because I was running PU mesmer :^) but not everyone is able to get 9s+ of stealth to get ooc to remount and run away.

    And arent people only able to create these group ganking in their own field, since they would need to catch up with the other person in the first place, would like to see anything that proves that logic wrong, personally got a lot of hours roaming on twitch, I can showcase a lot of people grouping together doing exactly as you described, hunting me down....but the difference here is that they are defending their stuff, not actually ganking, and when people are on my field I can easily escape, even when they try to burst me down, literally dont think ive died yet by random people running around on my field of the map and me trying to escape.

    That part is called defenders advantage, in RTS games, which is pretty different from actually ganking....

    I agree that a group of people defending their objectives are not ganking, they're just helping their team. But regarding "defender's advantage", it is useless if someone gets the jump on you and you can't make use of the little benefits you get from being in your own land. Not only that, but there are situations where you need to be on foot, like for example if you're capturing a sentry, running some dolyaks while giving them buffs, etc. In any of those scenarios you're completely vulnerable. And remember that objective ownership is not static. If there is a small group running around, chances are they're going to flip your stuff rendering this small advantage useless.

    If there are ganking groups just running around killing people off whom are trying to do something else, like PPT/run dollies/run to zerg, then sure I get your logic, but the problem is that I have not seen that....Thiefs/mesmers/rangers used to run to players/stealth to them and literally be able and did kill bronze/silver players whom are just trying to reach their blob from SM or between garri/bay, between garri hills etc....

    Now, that happens rarely. (Maybe they decided to group together and therefor are less spread, idk dude...)

    I kinda agree. One of the good things about the warclaw is the disappearance of permastealth oneshot backstab DE. Problem is, by giving players this "safety net" you're making it so even less builds can actually start a fight, while the usual "ganking" classes still have a chance to start fights, albeit with a much higher cost (pretty much all of your ini as a thief or a big amount of your burst cds as mesmer). The case of ranger is pretty funny because sic em + rapid fire has enough range to catch a escaping mount and since its a multi hit attack it doesn't care about the 10k health bar, it will just keep hitting you when you get dismounted.

    In any case, I don't see anything wrong with killing a player protecting a dolyak or running back to their zerg. Believe it or not your goal in WvW is to help your team win and killing dolly runners (and the dollys) and lone zerglings is a part of that. Blocking the enemy of supplies and reinforcements IS a valid strategy.

    So yeah, in short: the warclaw excels at discouraging combat and it severely limits the amount of builds that can actually start fights, a lot of them which happen to be "ganking" builds.

    And in the end, even if we go so far to say that there are a lot of them. Wouldn't it no matter what strengthen these groups of gankers, if the warclaw got lower HP, they can kill the warclaw faster and hunt them down easier? Your argument is that these groups are stronger now because of the warclaw, but that does not seem logically at all. If they are able to hunt you down with a warclaw, by dealing enough dmg to your warclaw in the first place while you got 3 dodges and no CC can stop you + you got more speed than them, wouldnt you already be dead in scenarios where you are on equal footing????

    If equal footing means literally on foot, then no, it depends on how much mobility you have compared to the people chasing you and how you manage your defensive CDs. If it means equal movespeed on the warclaw, then I guess in a perfect world situation where you see the gankers coming and you both start running at the same time they will never catch you, but it doesn't always work like this. You have to remember that people dismount with their class skills, not the warclaw itself, so the only thing the warclaw needs to do for them is to be fast enough to get in range of their burst. Regarding the evades, they just need to either bait them or to gapclose after them to stick to you. D/P thief for example has a pretty good time doing this with shadow shot and steal.

    As I said before, the amount of builds that can dismount a player is small. Lowering the warclaw's HP would help with this situation without making "gankers" stronger because they can already dismount you in the first place.

    ~Like in a scenario where you are literally running from your mirror, you would not be able to escape, but with defenders advantage, you should be? (this is rare ganking scenario, not a silver/bronze player just trying to reach their blob, which I was initially talking about, but since we are here....why not create this "If I just lived in this timeline" theory) (By that I meant that if 5 people are able to run you down in a scenario where you got defenders advantage or are on equal speed, then obviously they would be able to without it ----your mirror + CC=you stuck etc---)

    If I'm escaping from my mirror we would be running for an infinity because I would not use my evades until they dismount lol, because my dismounted self doesn't have the tools to dismount a escaping warclaw with at least 1 evade up (shows how broken the warclaw is). I don't really get the point you're trying to make here.

    Simply put, do you want Warclaw to have more HP, since you dont want these groups to be able to burst you down in your own scenario? Or do you actually think that you would be able to escape another group of chrono/war/thief with a lot less dodges and run through literally every CC in the game?

    No. Give it less HP and dodges, maybe even less movespeed. As I have said before, for "gankers" it doesn't really matter but for everyone else it helps a lot.

    I honestly dont get your argument, in the end no matter what, less HP or no mount will just make the groups have it easier bursting the warclaw/you down, this whole argument seems very much "to come close to what I mentioned previously on this thread".

    I explained earlier why this is not the case. On foot its a situation of your build vs the chasing group builds. In fact if you manage to run far enough to the point the chasing group gets split up and you end up alone with 1 or 2 of their "fast" chasers, chances are you can turn around, down one of them and then resume the chase. With warclaw this is not possible because the people left behind get ooc and then remount to catch up.

    Wrote this a lot, but I got to make it very clear, this whole argument is following the idea that in this rare scenario with some ganking group, only there to kill random people on your field on the map like between Garri - bay/hills, like the good old days with stealth thief and mesmers just around 5+ of them, not there to actually cap anything, just to hunt you successfully down.....

    Funny enough the part where you want to make it very clear is the part I understood the least lol.

    For reference, I didn't complain about gankers, I don't even care about them. In fact, I find the term kinda out of place considering WvW is mostly a objective based gamemode with open world PvP so it is to be expected to get into outnumbered fights sometimes, even if it is against your will. Its not like WoW where you're questing and suddenly a group of rogues or a max level player kills you out of nowhere for no reason.

    What I did was complain about the people that call everyone that wants the warclaw to be nerfed to reasonable levels a "ganker", which in my opinion is a very bad argument.

    Well let me shorten it out for you then, I did like you and took it point by point. It would be better if we both took them all collected but seems like a lot of work tbh for either of us.

    1. I don't know if you generally use "irrelevant" every time you cant directly answer a question. But right here, it is very relevant of how generally ganking got less popular directly because of Warclaw. I also like that you explain that you were capping stuff, which I got into later on....I guess this whole post you have written is piece by piece instead of reading it all then actually answering. I mean its fine, you are just being answered about this single point later on though.

    2. Here you answer the 1. one as well, and that is also why I wrote: "would like to see anything that proves that logic wrong" "personally got a lot of hours roaming on twitch" basically I got proof of it, people who are coming against me are rarely hidden anymore, I have not seen it yet and hours of proof that the other stuff haven't happened yet. Later on I give your ideology full might, basically "that even if it was the case that 10+ small ganking groups were in the map, killing off people"....Besides you keep trying to entangle roaming groups with gankers.

    Seems like a general trend, but you cant really create this ideology of having actual ganking groups killing people like thiefs/mesmers used to do, between something like garri/hills or garri/bay, so I kinda get it, still dirty to try to argue like that though....

    1. Here is where you directly agree with me. "So yeah, in short: the warclaw excels at discouraging combat and it severely limits the amount of builds that can actually start fights, a lot of them which happen to be "ganking" builds."

    I will of cause read the rest, but there is no reason to take this further. You seem to in generally entangle "roaming groups or defenders" with "actual ganking" though already several times state in this post that ganking did get diminished, which I see as a good thing, or ignoring the fact that the other players would kill you in a mirror scenario since range, CC etc....

    The only thing I generally want to dig deeper into, is:

    Why do you want to give Warclaw less HP? You dont go into that part, you simply create scenarios were you presumably tried to catch something of theirs and not able to outrun them, or maybe blindsided by them and not able to get on your mount and escape with faster speed+longer jumps on your own field......No matter what, I genuinly cant see how less HP would directly stop this chasing of ooc and then run to you again, it would make it A LOT easiere for them, you cant argue against that and have that as your prime argument of "ganking group"...? (And I also genuinely believe, that you have to be in their field for that to happen)

    Obviously any videos that proves that form for ganking, as mentioned above, would be great, I can showcase 4+ where they are just defending, non where I am running to nearby zerg/tower or w/e and 4 people on mount were able to catch me.

  • I'm against mounts. I could care less if they stay or they are removed. Player should absolutely be dismounted (not necessarily knocked down state) after being hit once or reduce hp of the mount to 100 maybe 200. It's fine for fast travel but immunity to CC and having to deal 10k to INITIATE a fight if you are roaming is insane in the current state.

  • spectrito.8513spectrito.8513 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karnasis.6892 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    i see people deffending the mount here which is all okay for me im aware people enjoy it but they dont give me a legit reason why warclaw is a good thing for wvw.

    The real answer is that it's neither good or bad for WvW, so I'm not sure what answer you are looking for or an answer you will accept.

    The honest reason it was added (beyond microtransactions) is that it shakes up WvW. The problem is different people are looking for WvW changes from different places. We all want alliances, but barring that there are some players wanting new maps, some just want "better balance" whatever that means (see previous comments on True Balance), some just want the DBL gone, and some want just a flat plain with no objectives so they can GvG all day long. I'm just saying that the Warclaw was added to change WvW's dynamic much like gliding was. Is it good or bad for WvW.... who knows. It's all subjective. Personally I find it fun.

    When gliding was added, among the other legit issues that caused, roamers cried out then just as they do now that gliding made "uninteractive game play" because if they can just glide from you, they don't have to fight. We are LITERALLY repeating history on these forums. That is why I have been advocating adapting to the new dynamic because we did to gliding. The only reason people are upset is that it does something more than just point a to point b.

    Keep in mind that that's how mounts are designed in GW2 unlike other games, so I see why they added more functionality to them in WvW. But different people are upset about different aspects of the mount. Some hate the speed, some hate the dodges, some hate the immunity of CC and a small subsection of people hate all of it. A good portion of all of these problems will be dealt with with the dismount skill coming in the future. And before anyone says we can dodge it and it'll be a waste of time, you don't know how it will be implemented yet. We have ZERO information on how it works, so maybe we can't dodge it.

    @Karnasis.6892 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    i see people deffending the mount here which is all okay for me im aware people enjoy it but they dont give me a legit reason why warclaw is a good thing for wvw.

    The real answer is that it's neither good or bad for WvW, so I'm not sure what answer you are looking for or an answer you will accept.

    The honest reason it was added (beyond microtransactions) is that it shakes up WvW. The problem is different people are looking for WvW changes from different places. We all want alliances, but barring that there are some players wanting new maps, some just want "better balance" whatever that means (see previous comments on True Balance), some just want the DBL gone, and some want just a flat plain with no objectives so they can GvG all day long. I'm just saying that the Warclaw was added to change WvW's dynamic much like gliding was. Is it good or bad for WvW.... who knows. It's all subjective. Personally I find it fun.

    When gliding was added, among the other legit issues that caused, roamers cried out then just as they do now that gliding made "uninteractive game play" because if they can just glide from you, they don't have to fight. We are LITERALLY repeating history on these forums. That is why I have been advocating adapting to the new dynamic because we did to gliding. The only reason people are upset is that it does something more than just point a to point b.

    Keep in mind that that's how mounts are designed in GW2 unlike other games, so I see why they added more functionality to them in WvW. But different people are upset about different aspects of the mount. Some hate the speed, some hate the dodges, some hate the immunity of CC and a small subsection of people hate all of it. A good portion of all of these problems will be dealt with with the dismount skill coming in the future. And before anyone says we can dodge it and it'll be a waste of time, you don't know how it will be implemented yet. We have ZERO information on how it works, so maybe we can't dodge it.

    Personally i dont mind having a mount in WvW, as long it doesnt have HP, permastab and 3 dodges.

    To give you an example, i was a big wow vanilla player, mainly because open world PvP which had mounts but only used for mobility.
    Then next expansion brought flying mounts and decreased drastically the amount of fights, it killed open world PvP because it was too easy to avoid fights compared to before.
    I feel the same way with Warclaw now.

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    Personally i dont mind having a mount in WvW, as long it doesnt have HP, permastab and 3 dodges.

    But dismount skills and traps that are coming will basically alleviate a lot of the problem (I assume anyway)

    To give you an example, i was a big wow vanilla player, mainly because open world PvP which had mounts but only used for mobility.
    Then next expansion brought flying mounts and decreased drastically the amount of fights, it killed open world PvP because it was too easy to avoid fights compared to before.
    I feel the same way with Warclaw now.

    But that's just it, you are comparing apples to oranges. You have to remember this isn't WoW or any other game with mounts.

    GW2 mounts are designed to be an extension of the player, NOT just a Point A to Point B kind of mount. That's why it has utilities and hp pools and those 3 dodges (And a tether no sane person would ever use on gates) . But also keep in mind that a lot of the problems that the Warclaw supposedly brought to WvW is based on feelings. Not hard facts, not proof, but feelings.

    Getting fights myself hasn't been any harder with mounts than without. I found 2 in less than 20 minutes yesterday. I initiated those fights, not the other players. I lost the first, won the second. They saw me coming and didn't run away. If I had more than 20 minutes to play I would have found even more. What most of the players who dislike the mount should just accept that you aren't going to get a fight with every person you see, because I did have 3 people run from me on their mounts when I had 2 others with me OFF our mounts. It didn't bother me because it pushed them off an objective without having to do anything.

  • spectrito.8513spectrito.8513 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karnasis.6892 said:

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    Personally i dont mind having a mount in WvW, as long it doesnt have HP, permastab and 3 dodges.

    But dismount skills and traps that are coming will basically alleviate a lot of the problem (I assume anyway)

    To give you an example, i was a big wow vanilla player, mainly because open world PvP which had mounts but only used for mobility.
    Then next expansion brought flying mounts and decreased drastically the amount of fights, it killed open world PvP because it was too easy to avoid fights compared to before.
    I feel the same way with Warclaw now.

    But that's just it, you are comparing apples to oranges. You have to remember this isn't WoW or any other game with mounts.

    GW2 mounts are designed to be an extension of the player, NOT just a Point A to Point B kind of mount. That's why it has utilities and hp pools and those 3 dodges (And a tether no sane person would ever use on gates) . But also keep in mind that a lot of the problems that the Warclaw supposedly brought to WvW is based on feelings. Not hard facts, not proof, but feelings.

    Getting fights myself hasn't been any harder with mounts than without. I found 2 in less than 20 minutes yesterday. I initiated those fights, not the other players. I lost the first, won the second. They saw me coming and didn't run away. If I had more than 20 minutes to play I would have found even more. What most of the players who dislike the mount should just accept that you aren't going to get a fight with every person you see, because I did have 3 people run from me on their mounts when I had 2 others with me OFF our mounts. It didn't bother me because it pushed them off an objective without having to do anything.

    2 fights in 20 minutes :scream:
    I never experienced anything like this before mount, even on off hours

    Im not comparing the games, im comparing the effects of a bad implemented mount on a open world PvP enviroment.
    There's no problem with sniff, chain and even battle maul, but having its on HP and endurance bars its just too much

    There's a reason why blizzard will release vanilla wow soon and from what i see, gw2 is going the same path.

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    2 fights in 20 minutes :scream:
    I never experienced anything like this before mount, even on off hours

    Hard to tell from text, but I assume sarcasm. But some folks here seem to assume that 2 fights in 20 minutes is unheard of.

    Im not comparing the games, im comparing the effects of a bad implemented mount on a open world PvP enviroment.
    There's no problem with sniff, chain and even battle maul, but having its on HP and endurance bars its just too much

    But the mount ISN'T poorly implemented, not totally anyway, with a fix coming for dismounts. It's just perceived to be that way by a subsection of the player base. Also, it's not like fights are hard to come by anyway.

    There's a reason why blizzard will release vanilla wow soon and from what i see, gw2 is going the same path.

    I doubt Anet is going to release a vanilla version of GW2, and honestly I'm not sure why they would at this point. But if they did I guess WvW would retain everyone who actually likes the mounts and we'd never have to speak of the Warclaw again on these forums XD

  • spectrito.8513spectrito.8513 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karnasis.6892 said:

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    2 fights in 20 minutes :scream:
    I never experienced anything like this before mount, even on off hours

    Hard to tell from text, but I assume sarcasm. But some folks here seem to assume that 2 fights in 20 minutes is unheard of.

    Idk how it is now but i used to roam for hours and hours, if i had 2 fights every 20 minutes i would log off.

    Im not comparing the games, im comparing the effects of a bad implemented mount on a open world PvP enviroment.
    There's no problem with sniff, chain and even battle maul, but having its on HP and endurance bars its just too much

    But the mount ISN'T poorly implemented, not totally anyway, with a fix coming for dismounts. It's just perceived to be that way by a subsection of the player base. Also, it's not like fights are hard to come by anyway.

    They had to remove jump on dismount, make mounted players unable to cap points they are also working on traps,tricks, dismount,ranged dismount and maybe a break bar, at least it was what Ben said.
    And idk if you're aware that soulbeasts and thieves can even one shot people using skill 1.
    Without mentioning display bugs(Warclaw seems to fly when someone jumps) and skill lag is worse than before, not sure if its directly related to Warclaw.

    Look how much work will be needed to fix this because bad implementation

    There's a reason why blizzard will release vanilla wow soon and from what i see, gw2 is going the same path.

    I doubt Anet is going to release a vanilla version of GW2, and honestly I'm not sure why they would at this point. But if they did I guess WvW would retain everyone who actually likes the mounts and we'd never have to speak of the Warclaw again on these forums XD

    Well, im playing gw2 for less than 2 years, but i already learned to expect everything from Anet, so who knows

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    @spectrito.8513 said:
    Idk how it is now but i used to roam for hours and hours, if i had 2 fights every 20 minutes i would log off.

    I've been roaming in wvw since just before HoT. I can tell you that's about the average I saw, but I also tended to not just seek out fights, I would flip camps, attack towers solo, and be a general nuisance. I also tended to play on DBL more than any other map once that came out (and still like the map to this day), though when I ran alpine my experience varied. It depended on time of day and my match-up whether I'd see lots of fights or very little.

    If I did find a fight sometimes I wouldn't see another right away. If I was playing the game mode ONLY for fights I might agree with you, but since I don't, I won't.

    They had to remove jump on dismount, make mounted players unable to cap points they are also working on traps,tricks, dismount,ranged dismount and maybe a break bar, at least it was what Ben said.

    And they had to do similar things with gliding? But now it's mostly okay. It doesn't mean in it is currently in bad implementation.

    Also, the dismount is a one size fits all mechanic, there won't be a ranged dismount and a melee dismount. While they may add a break bar, I think with dismount skills coming there won't be a need for a break bar.

    And idk if you're aware that soulbeasts and thieves can even one shot people using skill 1.

    That's not bad implementation, that's the player base TRYING to break the game. That's what players do.

    Without mentioning display bugs(Warclaw seems to fly when someone jumps) and skill lag is worse than before, not sure if its directly related to Warclaw.

    It's a display bug, it's not like it actually affects anything mechanically. Unless you miss your skills for some reason. Haven't noticed skill lag being any worse than before.

    Look how much work will be needed to fix this because bad implementation

    And any other game is so much better at this. Using WoW as an example, the azerite armor system has been busted since Beta, and they are only now admitting that it was a broken flawed system and making adjustments after the fact and have been working on it for months to find a replacement. Yes it functionally works, but hasn't been in a great place. Much like our mounts.

    Well, im playing gw2 for less than 2 years, but i already learned to expect everything from Anet, so who knows

    I dunno about this one. They made so many QoL updates over the years, I doubt anyone is interested in going back (and I'm not just talking about Elite Specs)

  • Creaitov.6328Creaitov.6328 Member ✭✭✭

    @zengara.8301 said:
    The only thing I generally want to dig deeper into, is:

    Why do you want to give Warclaw less HP? You dont go into that part, you simply create scenarios were you presumably tried to catch something of theirs and not able to outrun them, or maybe blindsided by them and not able to get on your mount and escape with faster speed+longer jumps on your own field......No matter what, I genuinly cant see how less HP would directly stop this chasing of ooc and then run to you again, it would make it A LOT easiere for them, you cant argue against that and have that as your prime argument of "ganking group"...? (And I also genuinely believe, that you have to be in their field for that to happen)

    Obviously any videos that proves that form for ganking, as mentioned above, would be great, I can showcase 4+ where they are just defending, non where I am running to nearby zerg/tower or w/e and 4 people on mount were able to catch me.

    I answered that multiple times before:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:
    ...
    So yeah, in short: the warclaw excels at discouraging combat and it severely limits the amount of builds that can actually start fights, a lot of them which happen to be "ganking" builds.
    ...
    As I said before, the amount of builds that can dismount a player is small. Lowering the warclaw's HP would help with this situation without making "gankers" stronger because they can already dismount you in the first place.
    ...
    If I'm escaping from my mirror we would be running for an infinity because I would not use my evades until they dismount lol, because my dismounted self doesn't have the tools to dismount a escaping warclaw with at least 1 evade up (shows how broken the warclaw is). I don't really get the point you're trying to make here.
    ...
    No. Give it less HP and dodges, maybe even less movespeed. As I have said before, for "gankers" it doesn't really matter but for everyone else it helps a lot.

    .

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:
    I honestly don't get it. Why do people want ganking to be stronger o.o?

    Spoilers: they're the gankers, and they don't like that Anet has deprived them of easy prey. Literally almost all the complaints about the warclaw boil down to that.

    Suddenly everyone who wants a fair chance to get a fight is a ganker lol.

    Come on now, how can you not see that the mount helps the real "gankers" more than regular players? I mean, to get a dismount you need to deal a quick burst of damage before the target runs away (which is easier with a group rather than solo), and when giving chase to someone the best way to prevent them from escaping is to keep them in combat while the rest of the group mounts up and catches up to them. If anything, the mounts makes ganking easier to the point the "ungankable" classes like thief, mesmer, warrior or ranger don't stand a chance with how much free mobility it gives.

    The way I see it, the mount forces you to seek help from a group in order to get a dismount. Hell, sometimes not even a zerg is enough to get a dismount, I've run through them with no problems while they were sieging our objectives because of how broken it is.

    But ok, keep telling yourselves the same lies, living in denial of what the mount actually accomplishes. Using "gankers" as an excuse to keep your new toy in its current broken, non-interactive state.

    Living up to the name I see xDD
    Your whole comment is kinda funny, because you are trying to defend the idea that it isnt gankers that are being nerfed, but other players, yet somehow argue yourself out of that, by stating that gankers have to work together to see any result sometimes and then argue that even amazingly huge numbers have problems with catching a warclaw. If I have to completely honest, funny af to read xD.

    So.......what you are saying is that Warclaw made it harder for gankers, because now it requires 5-10 gankers, to maybe sometimes catch 1 person who want to run away o.o?

    No, I'm saying that a single person can't dismount a warclaw reliably while gankers are still capable of ganking people with no problems, even easier now with the warclaw.

    Regarding the zerg part, you can't compare them to a gank group. They have a completely different focus. I mentioned zergs because with all the AoE they have, specially during a siege, going through them should be a death sentence yet with the warclaw you can do that pretty easily with no consequences. I guess I should've specified.

    In any case, if for some reason an angry zerg wants to get you instead of capturing an objective, they only need to focus fire you for the dismount (for example the hammer revs) and then you're dead. It doesn't matter that the blob as a whole lacks mobility, they just need to mount up and get you while you're still in combat. I've been there. One time I even got chased from NWT to garri west gate in alpine borderlands by a zerg, only because this one guy kept me in combat while the rest catched up to me with the mount (I was playing a chrono build that allowed me to kite and survive for a long time but clearly not enough to escape the stupid mount boosted zerg).

    So in conclusion, the mount makes it easier for gankers. Don't try to change what I said.

    wait so because some1 kept you in combat and rest caught up to you it made it easier for gankers?
    my god u on chrono vs me on thief u can not get away from me even if u get a headstart.

    ill port straight up youre kitten even if i cant target you ill use few npc's in WvW to use ports on to catch up faster, this mount doesnt change anything for gankers beside that people have extra +10k HP and 3 dodges which gives the person on it more chances to get away. but moment u get popped off ur still dead.

    whole point of dumb warclaw is.
    immunity to CC <-- helps vs blob fight and gankers
    3 dodges while shouldnt have any <-- helps vs blob fight and gankers
    way to fast for WvW <-- helps vs blob fights and gankers
    extra HP bar. <- helps vs blob fights and gankers

    maybe this helps u?

    when i do raid with guild i often use warclaw to take first few random aoe hits cus o hai im thief why shouldnt i use this extra HP while it has no downsides?
    i use it also to have immunity to CC
    the dodges i use to dodge tru other blob so i can go directly for weak classes in the back while i dont have to use shadowstep/stealth to go through em safetly
    the speed it helps alot when deffending garri for example ur back so fast u can just thin out ur enemy blob slowly cus u get back faster anyway.

    so did i add enough downsides for blobbing now to realise warclaw doesnt really add anything good?

    i see people deffending the mount here which is all okay for me im aware people enjoy it but they dont give me a legit reason why warclaw is a good thing for wvw.

    Yep. He kept me in combat for so long I couldn't take advantage of all of that sweet juicy advantages from the warclaw you mention, while his buddies could use them to catch up to me with no problem.

    And I agree, it should be pretty hard to escape a thief. In fact they're one of the few classes that can kinda keep up with the warclaw. You're pretty much agreeing with what I said the whole time lol.

    I'm not defending the warclaw. I'm on your side, the warclaw in its current state only hurts the game mode.

    @Karnasis.6892 said:

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    2 fights in 20 minutes :scream:
    I never experienced anything like this before mount, even on off hours

    Hard to tell from text, but I assume sarcasm. But some folks here seem to assume that 2 fights in 20 minutes is unheard of.

    Im not comparing the games, im comparing the effects of a bad implemented mount on a open world PvP enviroment.
    There's no problem with sniff, chain and even battle maul, but having its on HP and endurance bars its just too much

    But the mount ISN'T poorly implemented, not totally anyway, with a fix coming for dismounts. It's just perceived to be that way by a subsection of the player base. Also, it's not like fights are hard to come by anyway.

    There's a reason why blizzard will release vanilla wow soon and from what i see, gw2 is going the same path.

    I doubt Anet is going to release a vanilla version of GW2, and honestly I'm not sure why they would at this point. But if they did I guess WvW would retain everyone who actually likes the mounts and we'd never have to speak of the Warclaw again on these forums XD

    "the mount isn't poorly implemented" lol

    Immediately breaks the game mode on release, requiring multiple hotfixes, and needs so many changes and bugfixes the devs have created a sticky for them.

    I'm having a lot of fun with core thief and mesmer lately. I think a "vanilla" WvW week with only core specs available could be a fun idea.

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    "the mount isn't poorly implemented" lol

    Immediately breaks the game mode on release, requiring multiple hotfixes, and needs so many changes and bugfixes the devs have created a sticky for them.

    Which means it's no longer poorly implemented.... so....

    I'm having a lot of fun with core thief and mesmer lately. I think a "vanilla" WvW week with only core specs available could be a fun idea.

    Sure

  • zengara.8301zengara.8301 Member ✭✭✭

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:
    The only thing I generally want to dig deeper into, is:

    Why do you want to give Warclaw less HP? You dont go into that part, you simply create scenarios were you presumably tried to catch something of theirs and not able to outrun them, or maybe blindsided by them and not able to get on your mount and escape with faster speed+longer jumps on your own field......No matter what, I genuinly cant see how less HP would directly stop this chasing of ooc and then run to you again, it would make it A LOT easiere for them, you cant argue against that and have that as your prime argument of "ganking group"...? (And I also genuinely believe, that you have to be in their field for that to happen)

    Obviously any videos that proves that form for ganking, as mentioned above, would be great, I can showcase 4+ where they are just defending, non where I am running to nearby zerg/tower or w/e and 4 people on mount were able to catch me.

    I answered that multiple times before:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:
    ...
    So yeah, in short: the warclaw excels at discouraging combat and it severely limits the amount of builds that can actually start fights, a lot of them which happen to be "ganking" builds.
    ...
    As I said before, the amount of builds that can dismount a player is small. Lowering the warclaw's HP would help with this situation without making "gankers" stronger because they can already dismount you in the first place.
    ...
    If I'm escaping from my mirror we would be running for an infinity because I would not use my evades until they dismount lol, because my dismounted self doesn't have the tools to dismount a escaping warclaw with at least 1 evade up (shows how broken the warclaw is). I don't really get the point you're trying to make here.
    ...
    No. Give it less HP and dodges, maybe even less movespeed. As I have said before, for "gankers" it doesn't really matter but for everyone else it helps a lot.

    .

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:
    I honestly don't get it. Why do people want ganking to be stronger o.o?

    Spoilers: they're the gankers, and they don't like that Anet has deprived them of easy prey. Literally almost all the complaints about the warclaw boil down to that.

    Suddenly everyone who wants a fair chance to get a fight is a ganker lol.

    Come on now, how can you not see that the mount helps the real "gankers" more than regular players? I mean, to get a dismount you need to deal a quick burst of damage before the target runs away (which is easier with a group rather than solo), and when giving chase to someone the best way to prevent them from escaping is to keep them in combat while the rest of the group mounts up and catches up to them. If anything, the mounts makes ganking easier to the point the "ungankable" classes like thief, mesmer, warrior or ranger don't stand a chance with how much free mobility it gives.

    The way I see it, the mount forces you to seek help from a group in order to get a dismount. Hell, sometimes not even a zerg is enough to get a dismount, I've run through them with no problems while they were sieging our objectives because of how broken it is.

    But ok, keep telling yourselves the same lies, living in denial of what the mount actually accomplishes. Using "gankers" as an excuse to keep your new toy in its current broken, non-interactive state.

    Living up to the name I see xDD
    Your whole comment is kinda funny, because you are trying to defend the idea that it isnt gankers that are being nerfed, but other players, yet somehow argue yourself out of that, by stating that gankers have to work together to see any result sometimes and then argue that even amazingly huge numbers have problems with catching a warclaw. If I have to completely honest, funny af to read xD.

    So.......what you are saying is that Warclaw made it harder for gankers, because now it requires 5-10 gankers, to maybe sometimes catch 1 person who want to run away o.o?

    No, I'm saying that a single person can't dismount a warclaw reliably while gankers are still capable of ganking people with no problems, even easier now with the warclaw.

    Regarding the zerg part, you can't compare them to a gank group. They have a completely different focus. I mentioned zergs because with all the AoE they have, specially during a siege, going through them should be a death sentence yet with the warclaw you can do that pretty easily with no consequences. I guess I should've specified.

    In any case, if for some reason an angry zerg wants to get you instead of capturing an objective, they only need to focus fire you for the dismount (for example the hammer revs) and then you're dead. It doesn't matter that the blob as a whole lacks mobility, they just need to mount up and get you while you're still in combat. I've been there. One time I even got chased from NWT to garri west gate in alpine borderlands by a zerg, only because this one guy kept me in combat while the rest catched up to me with the mount (I was playing a chrono build that allowed me to kite and survive for a long time but clearly not enough to escape the stupid mount boosted zerg).

    So in conclusion, the mount makes it easier for gankers. Don't try to change what I said.

    wait so because some1 kept you in combat and rest caught up to you it made it easier for gankers?
    my god u on chrono vs me on thief u can not get away from me even if u get a headstart.

    ill port straight up youre kitten even if i cant target you ill use few npc's in WvW to use ports on to catch up faster, this mount doesnt change anything for gankers beside that people have extra +10k HP and 3 dodges which gives the person on it more chances to get away. but moment u get popped off ur still dead.

    whole point of dumb warclaw is.
    immunity to CC <-- helps vs blob fight and gankers
    3 dodges while shouldnt have any <-- helps vs blob fight and gankers
    way to fast for WvW <-- helps vs blob fights and gankers
    extra HP bar. <- helps vs blob fights and gankers

    maybe this helps u?

    when i do raid with guild i often use warclaw to take first few random aoe hits cus o hai im thief why shouldnt i use this extra HP while it has no downsides?
    i use it also to have immunity to CC
    the dodges i use to dodge tru other blob so i can go directly for weak classes in the back while i dont have to use shadowstep/stealth to go through em safetly
    the speed it helps alot when deffending garri for example ur back so fast u can just thin out ur enemy blob slowly cus u get back faster anyway.

    so did i add enough downsides for blobbing now to realise warclaw doesnt really add anything good?

    i see people deffending the mount here which is all okay for me im aware people enjoy it but they dont give me a legit reason why warclaw is a good thing for wvw.

    Yep. He kept me in combat for so long I couldn't take advantage of all of that sweet juicy advantages from the warclaw you mention, while his buddies could use them to catch up to me with no problem.

    And I agree, it should be pretty hard to escape a thief. In fact they're one of the few classes that can kinda keep up with the warclaw. You're pretty much agreeing with what I said the whole time lol.

    I'm not defending the warclaw. I'm on your side, the warclaw in its current state only hurts the game mode.

    @Karnasis.6892 said:

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    2 fights in 20 minutes :scream:
    I never experienced anything like this before mount, even on off hours

    Hard to tell from text, but I assume sarcasm. But some folks here seem to assume that 2 fights in 20 minutes is unheard of.

    Im not comparing the games, im comparing the effects of a bad implemented mount on a open world PvP enviroment.
    There's no problem with sniff, chain and even battle maul, but having its on HP and endurance bars its just too much

    But the mount ISN'T poorly implemented, not totally anyway, with a fix coming for dismounts. It's just perceived to be that way by a subsection of the player base. Also, it's not like fights are hard to come by anyway.

    There's a reason why blizzard will release vanilla wow soon and from what i see, gw2 is going the same path.

    I doubt Anet is going to release a vanilla version of GW2, and honestly I'm not sure why they would at this point. But if they did I guess WvW would retain everyone who actually likes the mounts and we'd never have to speak of the Warclaw again on these forums XD

    "the mount isn't poorly implemented" lol

    Immediately breaks the game mode on release, requiring multiple hotfixes, and needs so many changes and bugfixes the devs have created a sticky for them.

    I'm having a lot of fun with core thief and mesmer lately. I think a "vanilla" WvW week with only core specs available could be a fun idea.

    ok.....

    -My answer was througout the whole text, you agree with me that ganking is almost diminished (mesmer/thief w/e jumping random people between garri/hills/bay/sm) because of Warclaw

    -I asked, what would make these ganking groups not be able to gank you.
    -Your answer: by making all forms of ganking easier, since "ganking groups" can do it, why not everyone. (Seems like a fair representation of your answer)

    We can disagree on how good ganking is for the game, idc what your mindset is there, but to presume that there is less ganking with less HP on warclaw is simply wrong, and your slightly turning to that realisation, since you can not argue against that any further.

    You already agreed on less gankers, only these random ganking groups that are jumping you in your own field apparently alot more frequently than me...0... which I would like to see a video of (maybe I generally just look around more, but still), I really do believe you are dishonest on this and the mirror part in particular....Since it does not happen to me, and people can range you/cc + be at same distance at all times/keep you in combat for others to join.....

    For that last part I asked for any form for video, again I got lots of hours on twitch, nothing along those lines of people jumping me in my own field. Cant find it on youtube either, where people usually did post about thief rage, mesmer rage etc.

  • Creaitov.6328Creaitov.6328 Member ✭✭✭

    @zengara.8301 said:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:
    The only thing I generally want to dig deeper into, is:

    Why do you want to give Warclaw less HP? You dont go into that part, you simply create scenarios were you presumably tried to catch something of theirs and not able to outrun them, or maybe blindsided by them and not able to get on your mount and escape with faster speed+longer jumps on your own field......No matter what, I genuinly cant see how less HP would directly stop this chasing of ooc and then run to you again, it would make it A LOT easiere for them, you cant argue against that and have that as your prime argument of "ganking group"...? (And I also genuinely believe, that you have to be in their field for that to happen)

    Obviously any videos that proves that form for ganking, as mentioned above, would be great, I can showcase 4+ where they are just defending, non where I am running to nearby zerg/tower or w/e and 4 people on mount were able to catch me.

    I answered that multiple times before:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:
    ...
    So yeah, in short: the warclaw excels at discouraging combat and it severely limits the amount of builds that can actually start fights, a lot of them which happen to be "ganking" builds.
    ...
    As I said before, the amount of builds that can dismount a player is small. Lowering the warclaw's HP would help with this situation without making "gankers" stronger because they can already dismount you in the first place.
    ...
    If I'm escaping from my mirror we would be running for an infinity because I would not use my evades until they dismount lol, because my dismounted self doesn't have the tools to dismount a escaping warclaw with at least 1 evade up (shows how broken the warclaw is). I don't really get the point you're trying to make here.
    ...
    No. Give it less HP and dodges, maybe even less movespeed. As I have said before, for "gankers" it doesn't really matter but for everyone else it helps a lot.

    .

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

    @zengara.8301 said:
    I honestly don't get it. Why do people want ganking to be stronger o.o?

    Spoilers: they're the gankers, and they don't like that Anet has deprived them of easy prey. Literally almost all the complaints about the warclaw boil down to that.

    Suddenly everyone who wants a fair chance to get a fight is a ganker lol.

    Come on now, how can you not see that the mount helps the real "gankers" more than regular players? I mean, to get a dismount you need to deal a quick burst of damage before the target runs away (which is easier with a group rather than solo), and when giving chase to someone the best way to prevent them from escaping is to keep them in combat while the rest of the group mounts up and catches up to them. If anything, the mounts makes ganking easier to the point the "ungankable" classes like thief, mesmer, warrior or ranger don't stand a chance with how much free mobility it gives.

    The way I see it, the mount forces you to seek help from a group in order to get a dismount. Hell, sometimes not even a zerg is enough to get a dismount, I've run through them with no problems while they were sieging our objectives because of how broken it is.

    But ok, keep telling yourselves the same lies, living in denial of what the mount actually accomplishes. Using "gankers" as an excuse to keep your new toy in its current broken, non-interactive state.

    Living up to the name I see xDD
    Your whole comment is kinda funny, because you are trying to defend the idea that it isnt gankers that are being nerfed, but other players, yet somehow argue yourself out of that, by stating that gankers have to work together to see any result sometimes and then argue that even amazingly huge numbers have problems with catching a warclaw. If I have to completely honest, funny af to read xD.

    So.......what you are saying is that Warclaw made it harder for gankers, because now it requires 5-10 gankers, to maybe sometimes catch 1 person who want to run away o.o?

    No, I'm saying that a single person can't dismount a warclaw reliably while gankers are still capable of ganking people with no problems, even easier now with the warclaw.

    Regarding the zerg part, you can't compare them to a gank group. They have a completely different focus. I mentioned zergs because with all the AoE they have, specially during a siege, going through them should be a death sentence yet with the warclaw you can do that pretty easily with no consequences. I guess I should've specified.

    In any case, if for some reason an angry zerg wants to get you instead of capturing an objective, they only need to focus fire you for the dismount (for example the hammer revs) and then you're dead. It doesn't matter that the blob as a whole lacks mobility, they just need to mount up and get you while you're still in combat. I've been there. One time I even got chased from NWT to garri west gate in alpine borderlands by a zerg, only because this one guy kept me in combat while the rest catched up to me with the mount (I was playing a chrono build that allowed me to kite and survive for a long time but clearly not enough to escape the stupid mount boosted zerg).

    So in conclusion, the mount makes it easier for gankers. Don't try to change what I said.

    wait so because some1 kept you in combat and rest caught up to you it made it easier for gankers?
    my god u on chrono vs me on thief u can not get away from me even if u get a headstart.

    ill port straight up youre kitten even if i cant target you ill use few npc's in WvW to use ports on to catch up faster, this mount doesnt change anything for gankers beside that people have extra +10k HP and 3 dodges which gives the person on it more chances to get away. but moment u get popped off ur still dead.

    whole point of dumb warclaw is.
    immunity to CC <-- helps vs blob fight and gankers
    3 dodges while shouldnt have any <-- helps vs blob fight and gankers
    way to fast for WvW <-- helps vs blob fights and gankers
    extra HP bar. <- helps vs blob fights and gankers

    maybe this helps u?

    when i do raid with guild i often use warclaw to take first few random aoe hits cus o hai im thief why shouldnt i use this extra HP while it has no downsides?
    i use it also to have immunity to CC
    the dodges i use to dodge tru other blob so i can go directly for weak classes in the back while i dont have to use shadowstep/stealth to go through em safetly
    the speed it helps alot when deffending garri for example ur back so fast u can just thin out ur enemy blob slowly cus u get back faster anyway.

    so did i add enough downsides for blobbing now to realise warclaw doesnt really add anything good?

    i see people deffending the mount here which is all okay for me im aware people enjoy it but they dont give me a legit reason why warclaw is a good thing for wvw.

    Yep. He kept me in combat for so long I couldn't take advantage of all of that sweet juicy advantages from the warclaw you mention, while his buddies could use them to catch up to me with no problem.

    And I agree, it should be pretty hard to escape a thief. In fact they're one of the few classes that can kinda keep up with the warclaw. You're pretty much agreeing with what I said the whole time lol.

    I'm not defending the warclaw. I'm on your side, the warclaw in its current state only hurts the game mode.

    @Karnasis.6892 said:

    @spectrito.8513 said:

    2 fights in 20 minutes :scream:
    I never experienced anything like this before mount, even on off hours

    Hard to tell from text, but I assume sarcasm. But some folks here seem to assume that 2 fights in 20 minutes is unheard of.

    Im not comparing the games, im comparing the effects of a bad implemented mount on a open world PvP enviroment.
    There's no problem with sniff, chain and even battle maul, but having its on HP and endurance bars its just too much

    But the mount ISN'T poorly implemented, not totally anyway, with a fix coming for dismounts. It's just perceived to be that way by a subsection of the player base. Also, it's not like fights are hard to come by anyway.

    There's a reason why blizzard will release vanilla wow soon and from what i see, gw2 is going the same path.

    I doubt Anet is going to release a vanilla version of GW2, and honestly I'm not sure why they would at this point. But if they did I guess WvW would retain everyone who actually likes the mounts and we'd never have to speak of the Warclaw again on these forums XD

    "the mount isn't poorly implemented" lol

    Immediately breaks the game mode on release, requiring multiple hotfixes, and needs so many changes and bugfixes the devs have created a sticky for them.

    I'm having a lot of fun with core thief and mesmer lately. I think a "vanilla" WvW week with only core specs available could be a fun idea.

    ok.....

    -My answer was througout the whole text, you agree with me that ganking is almost diminished (mesmer/thief w/e jumping random people between garri/hills/bay/sm) because of Warclaw

    -I asked, what would make these ganking groups not be able to gank you.
    -Your answer: by making all forms of ganking easier, since "ganking groups" can do it, why not everyone. (Seems like a fair representation of your answer)

    We can disagree on how good ganking is for the game, idc what your mindset is there, but to presume that there is less ganking with less HP on warclaw is simply wrong, and your slightly turning to that realisation, since you can not argue against that any further.

    You already agreed on less gankers, only these random ganking groups that are jumping you in your own field apparently alot more frequently than me...0... which I would like to see a video of (maybe I generally just look around more, but still), I really do believe you are dishonest on this and the mirror part in particular....Since it does not happen to me, and people can range you/cc + be at same distance at all times/keep you in combat for others to join.....

    For that last part I asked for any form for video, again I got lots of hours on twitch, nothing along those lines of people jumping me in my own field. Cant find it on youtube either, where people usually did post about thief rage, mesmer rage etc.

    I think you never understood what I said in the first place, and you still don't. For example here:

    We can disagree on how good ganking is for the game, idc what your mindset is there, but to presume that there is less ganking with less HP on warclaw is simply wrong, and your slightly turning to that realisation, since you can not argue against that any further.

    I said again and again that the reason to give the warclaw less HP is so more builds can actually start a fight. I have no idea how you got from what I said that less HP on the warclaw would lead to less ganking. I said that for gankers less HP won't change anything.

    Ok maybe if I explain this in a different way you'll get what I mean:

    State of the game with current warclaw:

    • If you get dismounted you lose all the advantages from the warclaw.
    • "Ganking" builds are capable of dismounting players.
    • Regular builds can't dismount players reliably.

    State of the game with nerfed warclaw:

    • You still lose the warclaw advantages when dismounted.
    • "Ganking" builds can still dismount players.
    • Regular builds have an easier time dismounting players and starting combat. <- this is the important one

    That's it. I only want this point to get across.

    Nerfing the warclaw would have a positive effect on the game as a whole. Yeah, "gankers" will dismount you 1s faster or something, but that doesn't matter because they were going to dismount you before anyways.

    Personally I think its enough of this topic. It feels like we aren't understanding each other and we're getting nowhere.

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2019

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    • Regular builds have an easier time dismounting players and starting combat. <- this is the important one

    And the dismount skill/trap will solve this problem without needing to nerf hp, or anything else.

  • Creaitov.6328Creaitov.6328 Member ✭✭✭

    @Karnasis.6892 said:

    @Creaitov.6328 said:

    • Regular builds have an easier time dismounting players and starting combat. <- this is the important one

    And the dismount skill/trap will solve this problem without needing to nerf hp, or anything else.

    Depends on the implementation, but I don't think it will really solve the problem. Even the devs themselves said that using consumables in combat is not the best experience, and I agree. Its already hard to disable static enemy siege during an attack, imagine using a trick to dismount a fast-moving person. I guess it would at least give people that haven't unlocked the mount yet (to use the dismount skill) a chance. And thats not even talking about the supply cost, which I think should be 0 unless the trick/trap creates a no-mount zone with a set duration instead of being a single target dismount (or maybe have both? trick = free single target dismount, trap = no-mount zone for 10 supply).

    I still think a better, less complicated solution would be to nerf the warclaw, be it by reducing its hp, its mobility/evades or by removing its CC immunity (the biggest issue in my opinion). Remember, K.I.S.S. lol.

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