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Class is broken because


SLOTH.5231

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I got ganked and I was fighting several people at once in WvW I'm full bunker scrapper and I get a whisper saying very well played but class is completely broken? I mean I'm not killing people but they aren't killing me easily either so what's the problem and how does that make it broken?

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Salty players are salty.

Assuming your "full bunker" is the meta minstrel healer they are very hard to kill - if not impossible for anything but high dps burst builds and even then its hard - but they literally cant kill a kitten in return for building like that.

People are so quick to forget this apply to every bunker build but they can often dish out more damage.

I assume you dont run condi because then you would have killed them and gotten rage instead of just salt.

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@"SLOTH.5231" said:I got ganked and I was fighting several people at once in WvW I'm full bunker scrapper and I get a whisper saying very well played but class is completely broken? I mean I'm not killing people but they aren't killing me easily either so what's the problem and how does that make it broken?

Because an entire generation of children were lied to by their parents, falsely being told they were somehow "special", so inevitably when these children are ever confronted with a situation where they don't come out the winner, something obviously is wrong, since how is it possible they could lose? Automatically the people who beat them then are now either 'cheating' or playing 'builds' the are 'broken' and 'carry' them, because nothing else would explain how this "special" child didn't come out the victor.

One only has to read the WvW (Nursery) section of these forums for evidence.

I wish I were making this up, but some things are too bizarre or strange to even be accepted as fiction.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"SLOTH.5231" said:I got ganked and I was fighting several people at once in WvW I'm full bunker scrapper and I get a whisper saying very well played but class is completely broken? I mean I'm not killing people but they aren't killing me easily either so what's the problem and how does that make it broken?

Because an entire generation of children were lied to by their parents, falsely being told they were somehow "special", so inevitably when these children are ever confronted with a situation where they don't come out the winner, something obviously is wrong, since how is it possible they could lose? Automatically the people who beat them then are now either 'cheating' or playing 'builds' the are 'broken' and 'carry' them, because nothing else would explain how this "special" child didn't come out the victor.

One only has to read the WvW (Nursery) section of these forums for evidence.

I wish I were making this up, but some things are too bizarre or strange to even be accepted as fiction.

Yes.

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WvW is a special kind of hell. People believe they are the best at something, but in truth they're usually in a gank squad and can't duel for crap. If you can survive that, well clearly you're OP. I took on 3 people on a duelist holosmith build in WvW once, came out on top because they didn't know how to play their classes well, and I pulled them in such a way to only face them one at a time.

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I don't think your inability to kill on the bunker scrapper makes it balanced. The fact that a single player can basically contest a point indefinitely against multiple opponents (depending on the classes/skill of course, but must won't output anywhere near enough DPS to kill a scrapper) is probably what they are referring to.

Although, anyone that has to ask why the class is broken, I am sure they are either trolling or there is no convincing them.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"SLOTH.5231" said:I got ganked and I was fighting several people at once in WvW I'm full bunker scrapper and I get a whisper saying very well played but class is completely broken? I mean I'm not killing people but they aren't killing me easily either so what's the problem and how does that make it broken?

Because an entire generation of children were lied to by their parents, falsely being told they were somehow "special", so inevitably when these children are ever confronted with a situation where they don't come out the winner, something obviously is wrong, since how is it possible they could lose? Automatically the people who beat them then are now either 'cheating' or playing 'builds' the are 'broken' and 'carry' them, because nothing else would explain how this "special" child didn't come out the victor.

One only has to read the WvW (Nursery) section of these forums for evidence.

I wish I were making this up, but some things are too bizarre or strange to even be accepted as fiction.I don't know what an unkillable build has to do with parenting issues. You did not get the point.

Even a bunker should die to a full glass build in an acceptable amount of time (for GW2 standards: somewhat around 30s). Everything else is bad game design since countering bunkers is exactly the purpose of glass cannons.

A bunker scrapper can sustain most glass cannon builds resulting in having no counter.

edit: If staying alive would be useless in this game, we could continue and discuss this point, but it isn't. It's actually pretty important.

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@Dediggefedde.4961 said:I always thought bunkers are the counter for glass cannons. ^^Aside from that, scrappers are still pretty weak to CC in my opinion.

Bunkers are definitely supposed to counter power damage in general. The issue with Scrapper is it also has mobility on superspeed to compliment all of that sustain. If they just knock off superspeed from their bunker build and put it onto a trait that's more for offensive bruiser style builds (hint Mass Momentum), then I think it'll be balanced. Nothing that can survive 2v1s or 3v1s easily should also be able to speedy zip around the map. Trade damage and mobility for all of that tankiness.

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@"KrHome.1920" said:Even a bunker should die to a full glass build in an acceptable amount of time (for GW2 standards: somewhat around 30s). Everything else is bad game design since countering bunkers is exactly the purpose of glass cannons.

The other guy was correct about his statement, although I would have used a little more polite words myself. Certain people cannot be defeated legally, they cannot lose and never make mistakes. If the impossible happens, it was always unfair treatment, cheating, a bug in the system or bad design. If nothing applies, it was a conspiracy.

A couple of weeks ago in the Thief forum, there was a guy who started a thread "I wanna hit like a truck." I am not a huge fan of the thief community in this game, but the people there tried to explain this poor soul that Thieves do hit like a truck already. He was mostly pissed that some classes can survive a lethal attack and actually kill him. Skill of other players is often not an option. You play a certain class/build and expect to be unstoppable.

The greatest feature about GW2 still is its magnificent combat system, which reduces the value of gear and build to an absolute minimum. In other MMORPGs you can pretty much obliterate your opponent if your gear is just powerful enough. Here a lot of things work with skill and "knowing your character." Engineer has been garbage for years, we know how to play our class with the absolute minimum. With finally working and viable skills, the results are shocking indeed.

Training under 400 times normal gravity for years and then removing the force-field, seriously what did you expect would happen? Our numbers have decreased over the years more and more. People got frustrated from the constant nerfs and balances and purity-of-purpose patches. The Scrapper class-mechanic is still a floating joke compared to other class-mechanics. It works sometimes. When they started nerfing core to balance the Holosmith even some of those who sticked tenaciously to the class for years began to doubt and eventually quit or switched to another class. Core is still laying on the ground, giving the count. Scrapper got revived. Those who endured the humiliations until now, did rise. Some of the old buddies returned as well. Those are the unkillable nightmares you face at the moment. The new players, who barely know the class, can still be obliterated by your kind within seconds. They just spam their attacks and hope for the best. If you look on our bulwark gyro with one sharp eye for once, you can easily see its hammer weakpoint, stop spamming your utlimate damage skills, wait for it to run of and finish the poor Scrapper with a hit or two. Our skills have long cooldowns and we do not have as many/long blocks as a guardian or a warrior. Hitting blindly on us does no longer work, think before you strike!

Most people, who complain about the indestructible Scrapper at the moment forget one major issue: movement. If you duel an experienced players, how much time do you spend in melee range? Most of the fights I watched are two permanently bouncing gummy-balls, dancing in circles, leaping like the floor was on fire. Even if two glasscannon players meet in the field, the fight can take long. Although they technically only need 1-3 hits to get the other guy defeated. When fighting a bunker class this way, which has access to more blocks, sustains an recovery-skills this can take even longer. Root us to the ground or deal with it. Unfortunately we have access to Stability as many other classes out there.

In the end, I would like to mention our supreme DPS. Our what? Exactly. We do not have that. If you get hit by a Scrapper bunker, you never go to see any high numbers in the combat log. We need to land 3-6 hits to deal the same damage your kind does with a single one. That is why they call you assassin-classes.

Last night I was fighting one of your kind, stealth thief in the borderlands. He was farming kills with me at first. Then I started to use my head. The thief got 3 straight kills out of me until I began to become a serious problem for him. At attempt 7 I was finally capable of getting him to 20 % HP and then a guardian of the same side joined in to rescue his friend. I can improve my performance by learning from my mistakes - it is a thing humans are good at. I do not see why this is bad game design.

If you do not want to lose your fights, don't play against human players. Or play a game where skill does not matter.

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Almost all of our nerfs come from when other classes complain about us. That thief who wanted them to "hit like a truck" has obviously never played deadeye. They can hit you from stealth with unblockable projectiles which do ~12k damage each. I can't tell you how many times I've been roaming and suddenly got killed in 3 hits out of nowhere only to have a deadeye immediately go back into stealth.

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@Ghos.1326 said:If they just knock off superspeed from their bunker build and put it onto a trait that's more for offensive bruiser style builds (hint Mass Momentum), then I think it'll be balanced.

The group-superspeed is, in my opinion, a group-support and thus should be present in a support build. I really like this in zerg setups. Something most engis and zergs complaint about after final salvo change.The access to superspeed via gyro is not a problem in duals/roaming in my opinion. You either have to waste your main condi-clear or barrier surge 5 seconds in advance to get barrier. Or your heal-skill if you fight with medi-gyro.What might be a balanced change would be removing the leap-effect in lightning fields. Then hammer-3 combo in bulwark-gyro/hammer-5 would not give superspeed twice in addition to the leap/evade.

But I heard that we will get some special love next patch, so let's see what they have in store for us!

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@"Dawdler.8521" said:Salty players are salty.

Assuming your "full bunker" is the meta minstrel healer they are very hard to kill - if not impossible for anything but high dps burst builds and even then its hard - but they literally cant kill a kitten in return for building like that.

People are so quick to forget this apply to every bunker build but they can often dish out more damage.

I assume you dont run condi because then you would have killed them and gotten rage instead of just salt.

What you shouldn't forget, though, is that on the other side might be a guy who has actually spent time learning his class, playing lots of PvP/WvW and is by all means a better player than the Scrapper, and still can't win.

If I was, like, a Weaver or Mesmer main, and came across this unkillable wall that - by all means - can be played by a 3-legged masturbating monkey with 500ms ping and a blindfold on, I'd be pretty annoyed as well.

Dunno if that's just me, but easier-to-play classes should be weaker.

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@"yusayu.3629" said:Dunno if that's just me, but easier-to-play classes should be weaker.

So core engineer should basically get buffed ^^

Scrapper is currently very tanky, yes, but not unkillable, I got taken out with my bunker scrapper build in few seconds against 2 skilled enemies, while being able to hold out 1+ Minute against 3-4 unskilled enemies. It just requires a lot of skill to kill.

In 1:1 I have the opinion that every class should be able to go for a "almost-unkillable" build in 1:1 with the drawback that he also can't kill the other. Like thieves Ultra mobility, firebrands blocks, weaver infinite dodges, warriors giant regen+invul, many many classes have Access to very defensive builds, scrapper just currently ranks on top of those but it is not broken. I aggree that it Needs less skill than other classes but it is also not on the bottom of skill-requirement.

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@yusayu.3629 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Salty players are salty.

Assuming your "full bunker" is the meta minstrel healer they are very hard to kill - if not impossible for anything but high dps burst builds and even then its hard - but they literally cant kill a kitten in return for building like that.

People are so quick to forget this apply to every bunker build
but
they can often dish out more damage.

I assume you dont run condi because then you would have killed them and gotten rage instead of just salt.

What you shouldn't forget, though, is that on the other side might be a guy who has actually spent time learning his class, playing lots of PvP/WvW and is by all means a better player than the Scrapper, and still can't win.

If I was, like, a Weaver or Mesmer main, and came across this unkillable wall that - by all means - can be played by a 3-legged kitten monkey with 500ms ping and a blindfold on, I'd be pretty annoyed as well.

Dunno if that's just me, but easier-to-play classes should be weaker.

And if the scrapper is a better player?

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:Salty players are salty.

Assuming your "full bunker" is the meta minstrel healer they are very hard to kill - if not impossible for anything but high dps burst builds and even then its hard - but they literally cant kill a kitten in return for building like that.

People are so quick to forget this apply to every bunker build
but
they can often dish out more damage.

I assume you dont run condi because then you would have killed them and gotten rage instead of just salt.

What you shouldn't forget, though, is that on the other side might be a guy who has actually spent time learning his class, playing lots of PvP/WvW and is by all means a better player than the Scrapper, and still can't win.

If I was, like, a Weaver or Mesmer main, and came across this unkillable wall that - by all means - can be played by a 3-legged kitten monkey with 500ms ping and a blindfold on, I'd be pretty annoyed as well.

Dunno if that's just me, but easier-to-play classes should be weaker.

And if the scrapper is a better player?

Somewhat irrelevant when the skill floor is so low that most anyone can pick it up and be a giant pain in say 75% of MMR.

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I compared in my mind my Condi-Bunker-Scrapper against roaming classes/builds I encountered in the past weeks. When breaking it down to the Basics it has a looot in commong with the current weaver, condi-mesmer and sustain-warrior roaming builds. It is all about applying pressure for an amount of time while having defensives active. Weaver has his dodges, Mesmer has his invul/stealth/ports, warrior has his invul/regen and Scrapper has his barriers/stealth. All of those classes can win easily against unprepared opponents, Even 1v2 or 1v3, have a hard time to beat prepared enemies (draws) but are still tough to beat in 1:1 by classy builds.

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So... did the update impact the OPness?Reconstruction field does trigger anticorrosive plating less often and there is a rapid-regen nerv in PvP.Auto-smokebomb also got a higher CD in PvP.

So I guess for PvP in 1vs1 it should be better now to fight against them. Group fights there also used medikit/MDF, so only -40% rapid-regen affects 2vs2 and up.The WvW Support-build didn't change, though. Since I personally play mostly in zergs, I am a fan of this decision.But I can also see, that the roaming-problem against scrappers them is unaffected. Still not much of a problem in my opinion, though. ^^

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@KrHome.1920 said:Even a bunker should die to a full glass build in an acceptable amount of time (for GW2 standards: somewhat around 30s). Everything else is bad game design since countering bunkers is exactly the purpose of glass cannons.

A bunker scrapper can sustain most glass cannon builds resulting in having no counter.

edit: If staying alive would be useless in this game, we could continue and discuss this point, but it isn't. It's actually pretty important.

If a glass canon can kill a bunker, what a bunker is good at? And what counter glass canon then?In most mmo, bunker eventually kill their opponent after a very long fight. Any opponent can just run away without beeing burst down.

The only satisfaction of playing bunker is to be able to survive to all those glass canons that most players like to play. But it comes with a steep price : you won't kill anyone intelligent enough to not engage in a 5mn fight. This is how it is balanced.

Some people will argue it is not fun to fight a bunker. This is an issue, but sadly, this game reward full glass or bunker. Playing balance build is usually weaker as you still quickly die to glass canons.

Then comes another issue : pvp and its stupid capture point system. It's a big fall after playing gw1 pvp. But well, this is it, and capture point makes bunker a big issue.

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@"Aigleborgne.2981" said:If a glass canon can kill a bunker, what a bunker is good at? And what counter glass canon then?In most mmo, bunker eventually kill their opponent after a very long fight. Any opponent can just run away without beeing burst down.

The only satisfaction of playing bunker is to be able to survive to all those glass canons that most players like to play. But it comes with a steep price : you won't kill anyone intelligent enough to not engage in a 5mn fight. This is how it is balanced.

Same opinion here, a bunker should be able to stand against a glass cannon, as it is the only Thing he is good at. Glass cannon builds can potentially kill everything else, while bunker can potentially kill a glass Cannon build and survive pressure.

Some people will argue it is not fun to fight a bunker. This is an issue, but sadly, this game reward full glass or bunker. Playing balance build is usually weaker as you still quickly die to glass cannons.

Different Opinion here, offensive/defensive Balance can outshine in some situations due to the "diminishing Returns" principle of GW2. You have a broader spectrum of potential winning-situations while you would lose more easily against some specialized enemies (class depending). You can see this on the fact that there are still a few celestial-builds out there, although rarely used, they are dangerous in the right Hands.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@SLOTH.5231 said:I got ganked and I was fighting several people at once in WvW I'm full bunker scrapper and I get a whisper saying very well played but class is completely broken? I mean I'm not killing people but they aren't killing me easily either so what's the problem and how does that make it broken?

It's broken when you can essentially become unkillable with 6+ people on you. Your barrier application needs to be cut in 1/2, no class is supposed to have so much sustain that essentially nothing but an entire team focused on you with no interruptions has a chance of killing you.

I'm really not exaggerating, your cleanse, barrier, prot and stability uptimes are just way out of control. You guys make bunker guardians back in the day look like glass canons with your sustain.

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@Atticus.7194 said:

@SLOTH.5231 said:I got ganked and I was fighting several people at once in WvW I'm full bunker scrapper and I get a whisper saying very well played but class is completely broken? I mean I'm not killing people but they aren't killing me easily either so what's the problem and how does that make it broken?

It's broken when you can essentially become unkillable with 6+ people on you. Your barrier application needs to be cut in 1/2, no class is supposed to have so much sustain that essentially nothing but an entire team focused on you with no interruptions has a chance of killing you.

I'm really not exaggerating, your cleanse, barrier, prot and stability uptimes are just way out of control. You guys make bunker guardians back in the day look like glass canons with your sustain.

I've... never seen that happen. Were all 6 bunkers too?

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@Atticus.7194 said:It's broken when you can essentially become unkillable with 6+ people on you. Your barrier application needs to be cut in 1/2, no class is supposed to have so much sustain that essentially nothing but an entire team focused on you with no interruptions has a chance of killing you.

I'm really not exaggerating, your cleanse, barrier, prot and stability uptimes are just way out of control. You guys make bunker guardians back in the day look like glass canons with your sustain.

Huh, 2 decent Players can easily destroy me with my 3400 armor, all barrier and heal. However, 4 really bad Players are barely able to do anything, so those 6+ Players must have made something wrong. Maybe all 6 on range while he set up his 5s bubble and run into a Tower? Or was he on superspeed and the 6 were just not fast enough? A thief or mesmer can also escape 6+ ppl.

If your issue is 10k barrier.... with 6 (!) ppl, that barrier should evaporate in 0.5 seconds.

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