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The quality of players has never been worse.


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@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:At this point, the only way to improve the overall skill is reducing higher skill floors

  • Slowing the overall pace of the game so players can actually see what's going on.
  • Reducing skill clutter and visual noise.
  • New mechanics that reduce desirability of skill spam like cumulative stun resistance that gives a free stun break under heaving CC pressure. Or cumulative critical resistance that reduces damage from ferocity from stacking many skills with low damage per hit or no activation time. Burst would then be more effective the less skills they have, making more important to stack vulnerability and using high damage single-strike skills to finish off enemies rather than stacking as many skills as possible in the least possible time.

A big no to all of this. Skill 'spam' does hurt new players, but it doesn't bother vets who know how to outplay it. The pace of the game is fast and exciting, and if it was 2012 slow again, you can bet I'd go back to online Civilization games, as they're about the same speed.

And giving new players learning tools:

  • Better death breakdowns.
  • Better combat logs.
  • "Death cam"
  • Match replays.
  • Spectator mode from ally perspectives by clicking ally HP bars while defeated and waiting for respawn.
  • Better NPC AI
  • Basic tutorials.
  • Advanced tutorials with rewarding challenges.

This is all great stuff, though. I'd add to the list:

  • Rework top stats, as they don't help newbies learn the game.
  • Rework the scoreboard (in tandem with top stats update)
  • Build templates and build copying functionality.
  • Better matchmaking -- keeping tier people only with their fellow tiers, only dipping one above or one below. For example gold 3 with plat 1, and so on. No three-tier jumps in ranked games. My death knell for ranked has been the disparity of skill, especially if I'm in a high rated duo.
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Nobody could complain about the quality of players (except some top players) when match making would do what it should. Unfortunately good match making does not exist in this game. At least none that matches players of similar skill/experience into fair match ups.

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:I am not sure any mmo is really doing PVP well. > @bladezero.9470 said:

@"Exedore.6320" said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

i came back for a few days after almost 2 years gone, didn’t last. pvp is powercreeped skillless spam right now, i literally killed people with just arc divider. this game is a joke, & anyone with even half a brain will realise this & quit.

thats why population is low & players suck, it’s a reflection of the quality of the pvp experience.

I agree completely here, but god kitten... The combat system in GW2 is a million miles better than anything else out there.

Nothing.

Comes.

Close.

What specifically is great about it?
  • melee attacks go through walls
  • a rock on the ground can break LOS
  • you can be knocked into walls
  • the attack animations don't match where the damage is occurring
  • does anyone really like stealth implementation in this game?
  • mindless aoe spam is more rewarding than picking appropriate targets
  • flashing lights and pulsing red circles for every attack
  • useless traits and skill that no one takes
  • some classes barely have 1 viable build when some have 2-3 great/meta tier builds

We can dodge? We can jump?

Bots are in PvP.

I don't even know if GW2 makes the top of lists for MMO PVP, but there are worse out there for sure.

The thing is, some of those "lessers", while the still have probably the same complaints, are much more populated. That means they have more people to fight.

If circle quest is your best, then this is what you get.

Have you seen any initiatives to really make this game mode awesome?

Hes not talking about the balancing or traits.He is talking about how smooth the gameplay feels, how the animations flow into each other.I have the exact same problem, all the other games feel soooo clunky, even games that get praised for their smooth gameplay like black desert or tera are clunky af. Ive tried them and i just cant, they suck, every animation is closed in itself and doesnt transition into the next as it works in gw2

This has nothing to do with traits or balancing its tge pure gameplay that does it.

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@RedShark.9548 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:I am not sure any mmo is really doing PVP well. > @bladezero.9470 said:

@"Exedore.6320" said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

i came back for a few days after almost 2 years gone, didn’t last. pvp is powercreeped skillless spam right now, i literally killed people with just arc divider. this game is a joke, & anyone with even half a brain will realise this & quit.

thats why population is low & players suck, it’s a reflection of the quality of the pvp experience.

I agree completely here, but god kitten... The combat system in GW2 is a million miles better than anything else out there.

Nothing.

Comes.

Close.

What specifically is great about it?
  • melee attacks go through walls
  • a rock on the ground can break LOS
  • you can be knocked into walls
  • the attack animations don't match where the damage is occurring
  • does anyone really like stealth implementation in this game?
  • mindless aoe spam is more rewarding than picking appropriate targets
  • flashing lights and pulsing red circles for every attack
  • useless traits and skill that no one takes
  • some classes barely have 1 viable build when some have 2-3 great/meta tier builds

We can dodge? We can jump?

Bots are in PvP.

I don't even know if GW2 makes the top of lists for MMO PVP, but there are worse out there for sure.

The thing is, some of those "lessers", while the still have probably the same complaints, are much more populated. That means they have more people to fight.

If circle quest is your best, then this is what you get.

Have you seen any initiatives to really make this game mode awesome?

Hes not talking about the balancing or traits.He is talking about how smooth the gameplay feels, how the animations flow into each other.I have the exact same problem, all the other games feel soooo clunky, even games that get praised for their smooth gameplay like black desert or tera are clunky af. Ive tried them and i just cant, they suck, every animation is closed in itself and doesnt transition into the next as it works in gw2

This has nothing to do with traits or balancing its tge pure gameplay that does it.

Did you see this part? It's not about traits

  • melee attacks go through walls
  • a rock on the ground can break LOS
  • you can be knocked into walls
  • the attack animations don't match where the damage is occurring
  • flashing lights and pulsing red circles for every attack

and some more

  • Then there is the stealth mechanics in this game.
  • Some people complain about essence sap backwards casting.
  • Tab targeting
  • NO LOS ports

Not every skill is "so smooth".

I get a feeling that many people who "tried" other pvp games didn't really "try" them or they gave it an hour or 2 maybe twice, but they are too addicted to GW2 to even begin having fun elsewhere.

Isn't that looking through rose tinted glasses?

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:I am not sure any mmo is really doing PVP well. > @bladezero.9470 said:

@"Exedore.6320" said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

i came back for a few days after almost 2 years gone, didn’t last. pvp is powercreeped skillless spam right now, i literally killed people with just arc divider. this game is a joke, & anyone with even half a brain will realise this & quit.

thats why population is low & players suck, it’s a reflection of the quality of the pvp experience.

I agree completely here, but god kitten... The combat system in GW2 is a million miles better than anything else out there.

Nothing.

Comes.

Close.

What specifically is great about it?
  • melee attacks go through walls
  • a rock on the ground can break LOS
  • you can be knocked into walls
  • the attack animations don't match where the damage is occurring
  • does anyone really like stealth implementation in this game?
  • mindless aoe spam is more rewarding than picking appropriate targets
  • flashing lights and pulsing red circles for every attack
  • useless traits and skill that no one takes
  • some classes barely have 1 viable build when some have 2-3 great/meta tier builds

We can dodge? We can jump?

Bots are in PvP.

I don't even know if GW2 makes the top of lists for MMO PVP, but there are worse out there for sure.

The thing is, some of those "lessers", while the still have probably the same complaints, are much more populated. That means they have more people to fight.

If circle quest is your best, then this is what you get.

Have you seen any initiatives to really make this game mode awesome?

Hes not talking about the balancing or traits.He is talking about how smooth the gameplay feels, how the animations flow into each other.I have the exact same problem, all the other games feel soooo clunky, even games that get praised for their smooth gameplay like black desert or tera are clunky af. Ive tried them and i just cant, they suck, every animation is closed in itself and doesnt transition into the next as it works in gw2

This has nothing to do with traits or balancing its tge pure gameplay that does it.

Did you see this part? It's not about traits
  • melee attacks go through walls
  • a rock on the ground can break LOS
  • you can be knocked into walls
  • the attack animations don't match where the damage is occurring
  • flashing lights and pulsing red circles for every attack

and some more
  • Then there is the stealth mechanics in this game.
  • Some people complain about essence sap backwards casting.
  • Tab targeting
  • NO LOS ports

Not every skill is "so smooth".

I get a feeling that many people who "tried" other pvp games didn't really "try" them or they gave it an hour or 2 maybe twice, but they are too addicted to GW2 to even begin having fun elsewhere.

Isn't that looking through rose tinted glasses?

Thats still ALL something different than the smooth gameplay, the stones breaking los is annoying but not the norm, i can life with normalhits going through walls, no problem With that.

WHAT about clunky ass gameplay do you not understand? NONE of the other games felt as smooth as gw2, name me ONE single Game as smooth as gw2. You cant.

Ive put like 50 hours into black desert, that has to be enough to evaluate if its smooth or not, and it felt kitten slow and clunky to me. So again, please give me one game with smooth and fluent combat like gw2, no standind around while casting, no bs dodgerolls, where i just stad around for 1/2 second after the roll waiting for the end of the roll

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@RedShark.9548 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:I am not sure any mmo is really doing PVP well. > @bladezero.9470 said:

@"Exedore.6320" said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

i came back for a few days after almost 2 years gone, didn’t last. pvp is powercreeped skillless spam right now, i literally killed people with just arc divider. this game is a joke, & anyone with even half a brain will realise this & quit.

thats why population is low & players suck, it’s a reflection of the quality of the pvp experience.

I agree completely here, but god kitten... The combat system in GW2 is a million miles better than anything else out there.

Nothing.

Comes.

Close.

What specifically is great about it?
  • melee attacks go through walls
  • a rock on the ground can break LOS
  • you can be knocked into walls
  • the attack animations don't match where the damage is occurring
  • does anyone really like stealth implementation in this game?
  • mindless aoe spam is more rewarding than picking appropriate targets
  • flashing lights and pulsing red circles for every attack
  • useless traits and skill that no one takes
  • some classes barely have 1 viable build when some have 2-3 great/meta tier builds

We can dodge? We can jump?

Bots are in PvP.

I don't even know if GW2 makes the top of lists for MMO PVP, but there are worse out there for sure.

The thing is, some of those "lessers", while the still have probably the same complaints, are much more populated. That means they have more people to fight.

If circle quest is your best, then this is what you get.

Have you seen any initiatives to really make this game mode awesome?

Hes not talking about the balancing or traits.He is talking about how smooth the gameplay feels, how the animations flow into each other.I have the exact same problem, all the other games feel soooo clunky, even games that get praised for their smooth gameplay like black desert or tera are clunky af. Ive tried them and i just cant, they suck, every animation is closed in itself and doesnt transition into the next as it works in gw2

This has nothing to do with traits or balancing its tge pure gameplay that does it.

Did you see this part? It's not about traits
  • melee attacks go through walls
  • a rock on the ground can break LOS
  • you can be knocked into walls
  • the attack animations don't match where the damage is occurring
  • flashing lights and pulsing red circles for every attack

and some more
  • Then there is the stealth mechanics in this game.
  • Some people complain about essence sap backwards casting.
  • Tab targeting
  • NO LOS ports

Not every skill is "so smooth".

I get a feeling that many people who "tried" other pvp games didn't really "try" them or they gave it an hour or 2 maybe twice, but they are too addicted to GW2 to even begin having fun elsewhere.

Isn't that looking through rose tinted glasses?

Thats still ALL something different than the smooth gameplay, the stones breaking los is annoying but not the norm, i can life with normalhits going through walls, no problem With that.

WHAT about clunky kitten gameplay do you not understand? NONE of the other games felt as smooth as gw2, name me ONE single Game as smooth as gw2. You cant.

Ive put like 50 hours into black desert, that has to be enough to evaluate if its smooth or not, and it felt kitten slow and clunky to me. So again, please give me one game with smooth and fluent combat like gw2, no standind around while casting, no bs dodgerolls, where i just stad around for 1/2 second after the roll waiting for the end of the roll

The reasons I listed are part of my gameplay. Therefore in my eyes, the smoothness is a bit wrinkled.

I overlooked them, just like I overlook shortfalls in other games.

But, nah...GDUB2 ain't the best, it's just one among the many.

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@bladezero.9470 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

Because it's the best MMO combat out there by far. Everything else about the game just happens to suck but we're too addicted to quit for good.

This.

All.

Day.

Long.

Someone please help! Point me to another PvP mmo with even half the potential of GW2.

The original Guild Wars that they so readily ignore because they prefer this abomination.WoW arena is still really popular, downside is endless gear grind but still far more enjoyable than circle wars.I play HotS and ESO for pvp / pve. ESO has open world with even better quests and reward for discovery where GW2 failed as well without obnoxious amount of enemies with CC etc.GW2 is only worth hopping in from time to time, otherwise it destroys the soul and may cause cardiac arrest due to high blood pressure.Best combat is no longer true, any braindead toddler can excel with passive spammy gameplay. What is so good about it now? Pretty much every MMO followed suit but at least other MMOs have proper game modes despite horrendous class design which is just a thing I guess in gaming these days that seems to be popular with devs.

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@choovanski.5462 said:

@Exedore.6320 said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

i came back for a few days after almost 2 years gone, didn’t last. pvp is powercreeped skillless spam right now, i literally killed people with just arc divider. this game is a joke, & anyone with even half a brain will realise this & quit.

thats why population is low & players suck, it’s a reflection of the quality of the pvp experience.

I agree completely here, but god kitten... The combat system in GW2 is a million miles better than anything else out there.

Nothing.

Comes.

Close.

no

gw2 pre trait rework into specialisations was good combat

all the nuances of that combat system have been ruined by powercreep. gw2 in it’s current state has some of the worst pvp out there. it’s an absolute joke

Are you telling me you don't miss the PU mantra power shatter mesmer post spec patch? : )

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@Marxx.5021 said:Nobody could complain about the quality of players (except some top players) when match making would do what it should. Unfortunately good match making does not exist in this game. At least none that matches players of similar skill/experience into fair match ups.

Do you really believe that though? People blame anything and anyone they can but themselves all the time.

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@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Exedore.6320 said:When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease.

why would anyone who actually wants a skill based game play this mess?

i came back for a few days after almost 2 years gone, didn’t last. pvp is powercreeped skillless spam right now, i literally killed people with just arc divider. this game is a joke, & anyone with even half a brain will realise this & quit.

thats why population is low & players suck, it’s a reflection of the quality of the pvp experience.

I agree completely here, but god kitten... The combat system in GW2 is a million miles better than anything else out there.

Nothing.

Comes.

Close.

no

gw2 pre trait rework into specialisations was good combat

all the nuances of that combat system have been ruined by powercreep. gw2 in it’s current state has some of the worst pvp out there. it’s an absolute joke

Are you telling me you don't miss the PU mantra power shatter mesmer post spec patch? : )

I don't think anyone who didnt main mesmer has the ability to miss that class XD

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:I can guaratee that's not true.

You mean there was a time when the player base was worse?

By far, in 2012/2013.

Well, at least at this time players where willing to learn and try, now they are only willing to follow other steps/builds. I think it's enough to say that it's worse now.

You're directly contradicting yourself.

How does "following other steps/builds" not show a willingness to learn and try? That's exactly what learning and trying means.

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@witcher.3197 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:I can guaratee that's not true.

You mean there was a time when the player base was worse?

By far, in 2012/2013.

Well, at least at this time players where willing to learn and try, now they are only willing to follow other steps/builds. I think it's enough to say that it's worse now.

You're directly contradicting yourself.

How does "following other steps/builds" not show a willingness to learn and try? That's exactly what learning and trying means.

I guess he means many people just play builds from metabattle and get carried by those specs without knowing proper rotations, compositions and stuff.

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@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:I can guaratee that's not true.

You mean there was a time when the player base was worse?

By far, in 2012/2013.

Well, at least at this time players where willing to learn and try, now they are only willing to follow other steps/builds. I think it's enough to say that it's worse now.

You're directly contradicting yourself.

How does "following other steps/builds" not show a willingness to learn and try? That's exactly what learning and trying means.

I guess he means many people just play builds from metabattle and get carried by those specs without knowing proper rotations, compositions and stuff.

Exactly. In 2012/2013 there were no such thing as metabattle, players were building by themselve, not following blindly the most op build released by other. It was a lot healthier.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:Well, at least at this time players where willing to learn and try, now they are only willing to follow other steps/builds. I think it's enough to say that it's worse now.

@"Megametzler.5729" said:I guess he means many people just play builds from metabattle and get carried by those specs without knowing proper rotations, compositions and stuff.

In both cases, that's a playerbase problem instead of the Meta itself. Specs can only "carry" one so far until they run into people who know how to handle them either with other meta builds or anti-meta setups. It doesnt help that among randoms there's often a lack of strategy or communication when it comes into playing into or adjusting rotations around certain matchups or comps. Even with a wide array of different specs or builds to choose from, be they meta or just viable (or even specialized to deal with certain cases) many just wont care to adapt or try to create counterplay when its easier to just pick one and roll with it for better or worse. Hell, most dont even care about winning, having quality games or rating since they'll still eventually get their pips/reward tracks/gold eventually.

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@Euthymias.7984 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well, at least at this time players where willing to learn and try, now they are only willing to follow other steps/builds. I think it's enough to say that it's worse now.

@"Megametzler.5729" said:I guess he means many people just play builds from metabattle and get carried by those specs without knowing proper rotations, compositions and stuff.

In both cases, that's a playerbase problem instead of the Meta itself. Specs can only "carry" one so far until they run into people who know how to handle them either with other meta builds or anti-meta setups. It doesnt help that among randoms there's often a lack of strategy or communication when it comes into playing into or adjusting rotations around certain matchups or comps. Even with a wide array of different specs or builds to choose from, be they meta or just viable (or even specialized to deal with certain cases) many just wont care to adapt or try to create counterplay when its easier to just pick one and roll with it for better or worse. Hell, most dont even care about winning, having quality games or rating since they'll still eventually get their pips/reward tracks/gold eventually.

Of course metabattle is not Anets fault. Also back then, there were optimal builds at the top and it's probably natural that things evolve into sites like metabattle once there are more people playing the game.

However, since HoT I noticed an increase in toxicity. That might be objectively incorrect, but from HoT on there were many builds just completely obsolete and unviable - something that before the addon was... well, at least less significant. So badish players playing good builds became better than goodish players playing off-meta builds. This surely was not the reasen for toxicity, but I believe it played a major part in it and could have partly be prevented by better balance (and still can).

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@"Megametzler.5729" said:

Of course metabattle is not Anets fault. Also back then, there were optimal builds at the top and it's probably natural that things evolve into sites like metabattle once there are more people playing the game.

Yes that much is true. Metas will develop, there will always be something strong enough to make that so. Its not a bad thing in itself, especially if the strong thing has weaknesses or ways around it.

However, since HoT I noticed an increase in toxicity. That might be objectively incorrect, but from HoT on there were many builds just completely obsolete and unviable - something that before the addon was... well, at least less significant. So badish players playing good builds became better than goodish players playing off-meta builds. This surely was not the reasen for toxicity, but I believe it played a major part in it and could have partly be prevented by better balance (and still can).

Because Elite Specs were new and very powerful compared to core traitlines when it was initially advertised as a sidegrade that offers a new way to play. Also a lot of the things that worked before either got molded into Elite Specs and made stronger or straight up nerfed because of complaints made against them. Even then, there were a number of options and playstyles that even they opened up that were subsequently nerfed into obscurity too, either directly or indirectly over time.

I'm not sure where this bit about "toxicity" came from, but it was always there. It was exacerbated because of odd balancing decisions, among other things. Look at Druid for example: Instead of nerfing the actual source of one of its most "unfun" aspects in competitive play, (the ability to constantly reset with Celestial Shadow), it ended up getting its healing and support abilities hammered repeatedly, its mechanic gained increased Cooldowns, they shafted an already average weapon (Staff), ect, all while not touching the actual problem. The same can go for Mesmers, Warriors, and all of the others at some point or another. It was made worse because at the time of HoT balancing they didnt skill split very regularly, so the changes were often global, and this triggered the PvE crowd heavily. A very common complaint was that specs suffered in PvE due to PvP balancing back then.

Combine that sort of balancing with other matters like the PvP reward structure attracting PvE farmers who only were in it for the shinies (which did piss off dedicated PvP players who had to deal with that in their ranked games) and a level of apathy that set in over time, and you get where we are now.

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@kin korn karn.9023 said:Silver player complaining about quality of players and being toxic even in unranked, ironically to far better players. Yes, I'd say it's time for you to move on.

I've been plat many times and won several ATs with my team in the past. I just afk farm and troll ranked these days for the Chests of marks because I get players like you in most of my games. I see you. You're not good bro :-P

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@bladezero.9470 said:

@kin korn karn.9023 said:Silver player complaining about quality of players and being toxic even in unranked, ironically to far better players. Yes, I'd say it's time for you to move on.

I've been plat many times and won several ATs with my team in the past. I just afk farm and troll ranked these days for the Chests of marks because I get players like you in most of my games. I see you. You're not good bro :-P

I'm no pro by a long shot, just pointing out that you're the punchline of your own joke.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:I can guaratee that's not true.

You mean there was a time when the player base was worse?

By far, in 2012/2013.

Well, at least at this time players where willing to learn and try, now they are only willing to follow other steps/builds. I think it's enough to say that it's worse now.

You're directly contradicting yourself.

How does "following other steps/builds" not show a willingness to learn and try? That's exactly what learning and trying means.

I guess he means many people just play builds from metabattle and get carried by those specs without knowing proper rotations, compositions and stuff.

Exactly. In 2012/2013 there were no such thing as metabattle, players were building by themselve, not following blindly the most op build released by other. It was a lot healthier.

So your vision of better player/match quality consists of playing with and against people who lack a basic understanding of the game and play their own randomly put together bearbow builds? That sounds much better..

And before metabattle there were other sites, streamers, youtubers etc. Or are you telling me only the top 1% knew about builds like Hambow?

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I quit after they nerfed the bunker meta hard however many months after Heart of Thorns because the PvP had become too easy. I came back a few weeks ago... I don't remember ever seeing so many people fighting at the enemy spawn or needlessly leaving objectives for an unnecessary kill. When I come up against good players that didn't take a two year break (or however long its been) I can tell, sadly I don't run into them often enough to learn how the new map rotation works. I definitely can't sit my Reaper at side and reliably take on 1v2-3 anymore.

That said, I am having fun for now.

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The quality of players is related to the conquest gaming mode. Conquest is a mode that requires strict communication and coordination. None of which naturally exist in spvp. Conquest works well when are on team speak with 4 other friends. But falls apart when you take 5 randoms, put them together and expect them to be coordinated. Each player on the team is so important, that if one person is underperforming then its almost undoubtable your team will lose.

Its baffling that out of everything Anet didn't add voice comm in game or at the very least voice commands (like CS) in game. There is literally nothing, but stand there and type (which team mates complain about often) or target assist. I always felt that conquest should be reserved for tournament play and random queue should of gotten a entirely different mode that requires less coordination and communication. Maybe something like Alliance Battle from gw1 or they could of built upon the stronghold mode.

We are six year into the games life span, pvp rarely gets updates anymore. Its very unlikely that we will ever see a surge of quality players. Maybe with GW3, if there is ever one.

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