War Eternal spoilers - Kralkatorrik

[Ninutra.7926]

Oh sweet, discussion on dragon psychology!(wall of text inc)

Ok, so first of all, the episode tackled quite heavy stuff, and I think writers did their best to make it somewhat simple and easy to understand. Maybe that's what's bothering some people - too simple a language and execution to give the topic justice. That being said, I liked the episode quite a bit. Now, to the proper discussion:

Second of all, I had hoped we were long past labeling the characters as "good" or "evil".

The dragons are not necessarily mysterious or "inhuman", they have instincts like any other creature. Neither good or bad.

Being aware of what you are doing (you know, since they are intelligent) can ONLY make you suffer when you realise how your deeds affect others. As a parallel, we can say a human must eat, in order to survive. But eating means sacrifice and suffering of another creature. But what else can you do, die of starvation? So to eat meat for example, you need to accept (or reject) that you are doing harm to some other creatures, in order to survive yourself. Not many of us go around and cry and feel pain and sadness for the cow we've just eaten. So it only makes sense for a huge dragon that needs endless amount of energy to survive, would be numb to the suffering of mortals. Bonus points for that they are aware of their importance in the world, keeping magical balance and all. Thus, they can eat and slaughter to their heart's content, perhaps even telling themselves they are working for the planet's benefit... which is partially true.

And so, that puts dragons (especially the elder ones) in a position where it's hard for them to feel a lot of compassion. It only would only make them suffer if they did. Especially that due to some shenanigans they literally became the necessary force to keep magic in place. So even if they'd want it another way, they probably just can't.

With Kralkatorrik, the case gets even more complicated, due to, well... his empathy! Yes, just like us, they kill and destroy, but that does not mean they are completely devoid of positive feelings. He obviously presented that he had hidden compassion (NOT ONLY FOR HIS FAMILY, MIND YOU - he saw Aurene's love for mortals as her strength!), but his instincts and his inner pain (due to the overwhelming amount of different magics inside), would only make him steer away from that.

So my point is: HIS SUFFERING WAS NOT ONLY DUE TO THE CONFLICTING MAGIC - IT WAS DUE TO HIS NATURE. A nature, which by default allows him both to be compassionate and cruel, which I guess would be the problem of all intelligent beings. To see yourself for the cruel animal that you are, while at the same time wanting to be good, is quite the burden. A burden, which you'd gladly forget, so it wouldn't sting.

Which makes me think that all elder dragons could have an opportunity for redemption. Especially if they knew that the world wouldn't collapse if they stopped to devour magic as they did. Then again, who knows.I doubt we could just talk it out with Jormag or Primordus, though. We need to have a game, after all.

So, the Dragon's "cruelty" is its nature. And I assume that Glint's "purification" was just turning her point of view, utilising potential that she had within herself anyway.If that is so, maybe Aurene truly is the first of her kind, as in, she is seemingly the first Elder Dragon not to just follow her instincts. Which I think is splendid - when you have so much power over the entire world, your decisions over it should come from a place of compassion, not wants or needs. And she is not afraid to take the responsibility, instead of following the path of destruction and ignorance, she actually goes the extra mile to see other creatures as equal, instead of just means to an end.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Once more the more interesting parts of the episode were the environment and reasoning behind that - The Underworld, Fissure of Woe and Melandru's Domain - Rather than anything to do with dragons.

Solid episode but the hype wasn't worth it, I won't say I am disappointed but I will say I am neutral and that's not what I wanted to be.

[Alchimist.4738]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Once more the more interesting parts of the episode were the environment and reasoning behind that - The Underworld, Fissure of Woe and Melandru's Domain - Rather than anything to do with dragons.

Solid episode but the hype wasn't worth it, I won't say I am disappointed but I will say I am neutral and that's not what I wanted to be.

The Underworld is for Zhaitan, the Fissure of Woe for Balthazar, and Melandru's Domain for Mordremoth, of of them have had their magic drained by Kralkatorrik. We also know that the human gods parallel the dragon's magic, which explains why some of their dominions were pulled by Kralkatorrik.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

@Alchimist.4738 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Once more the more interesting parts of the episode were the environment and reasoning behind that - The Underworld, Fissure of Woe and Melandru's Domain - Rather than anything to do with dragons.

Solid episode but the hype wasn't worth it, I won't say I am disappointed but I will say I am neutral and that's not what I wanted to be.

The Underworld is for Zhaitan, the Fissure of Woe for Balthazar, and Melandru's Domain for Mordremoth, of of them have had their magic drained by Kralkatorrik. We also know that the human gods parallel the dragon's magic, which explains why some of their dominions were pulled by Kralkatorrik.

No?

[Daniel Handler.4816]

insertchar

[Eekasqueak.7850]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:

@Alchimist.4738 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Once more the more interesting parts of the episode were the environment and reasoning behind that - The Underworld, Fissure of Woe and Melandru's Domain - Rather than anything to do with dragons.

Solid episode but the hype wasn't worth it, I won't say I am disappointed but I will say I am neutral and that's not what I wanted to be.

The Underworld is for Zhaitan, the Fissure of Woe for Balthazar, and Melandru's Domain for Mordremoth, of of them have had their magic drained by Kralkatorrik. We also know that the human gods parallel the dragon's magic, which explains why some of their dominions were pulled by Kralkatorrik.

No?

Yes.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:

@Alchimist.4738 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Once more the more interesting parts of the episode were the environment and reasoning behind that - The Underworld, Fissure of Woe and Melandru's Domain - Rather than anything to do with dragons.

Solid episode but the hype wasn't worth it, I won't say I am disappointed but I will say I am neutral and that's not what I wanted to be.

The Underworld is for Zhaitan, the Fissure of Woe for Balthazar, and Melandru's Domain for Mordremoth, of of them have had their magic drained by Kralkatorrik. We also know that the human gods parallel the dragon's magic, which explains why some of their dominions were pulled by Kralkatorrik.

No?

Yes.

The Human Gods magic do not parallel the Elder Dragons, it's already been discussed and debunked many times. Zhaitan has next to nothing to do with the Underworld, and Mordremoth has nothing to do with Melandru.

The answer is still no.

[Blocki.4931]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:

@Alchimist.4738 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Once more the more interesting parts of the episode were the environment and reasoning behind that - The Underworld, Fissure of Woe and Melandru's Domain - Rather than anything to do with dragons.

Solid episode but the hype wasn't worth it, I won't say I am disappointed but I will say I am neutral and that's not what I wanted to be.

The Underworld is for Zhaitan, the Fissure of Woe for Balthazar, and Melandru's Domain for Mordremoth, of of them have had their magic drained by Kralkatorrik. We also know that the human gods parallel the dragon's magic, which explains why some of their dominions were pulled by Kralkatorrik.

No?

Yes.

The Human Gods magic do not parallel the Elder Dragons, it's already been discussed and debunked many times. Zhaitan has next to nothing to do with the Underworld, and Mordremoth has nothing to do with Melandru.

The answer is still no.

The magic he absorbed connected him to the realms we fly through & he rips out of the mists when he falls in the first instance. That's what he was saying.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

And that would be false, the only realm he had connection to via magic is the Fissure of Woe.

[Rockin Twilight Sparkle.26]

That might be the only God Realm he has an ACTUAL connection to since he ate Bath Salts, but I meanDeath Magic, God of Death, Realm of DeathPlant Magic, Goddess of Nature, Realm of Nature

Some of the gods and some of the dragons DO parallel each other pretty plainly like that

[Loesh.4697]

Couldn't care less about the dragons.

The God Realms in Tyria? now that is more interesting...

[Imba.9451]

I am not sure what to feel.Elevating the stakes is necessary, to keep tension going, but especially Kralk hinting at another entity above ED's makes me uncomfortable. While it was about fighting an evil Lich in the beginning of GW2, we now are at the brink of entering cosmic threat levels, like WoW, making our character even more OP in the process.Also, didn't Anet waaaay back then state, that dragons are simple primeval forces and beasts basically?Also I felt so cheated about Arenes resurrection. Or at least I would, if this wasn't the most obvious ressurection ever :D And why does everyone just go along with her being able to speak?

Of course I am still curious though. Who is this "mother" Kralk talked about? Will the gods come back now? What direction is the story heading now? What direction is the game heading now?

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Aurene became literal crystal dragon Jesus.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"ugrakarma.9416" said:didnt played it yet, but i dont care about spoilers.. but is this? more humanization of elder dragons? i dont like that idea.

Not really humanizing. More of personalizing. Just giving something a voice and personality doesn't make them more human. I think the dialogue was done well to show not only inner conflict that was brought forth by Kralkatorrik's near death state, but also it was done well to keep them as a hard-to-understand force of nature. Even though you can begin to sympathize for Kralkatorrik, the words used are still a bit confusing. The only "humanizing" is that he does have feelings for family. But that's shown in animals all over the world, so it's not really a human-only or even primarily human trait. It's a trait of any creature living and having offspring would have.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Fenom.9457 said:Yeah, really liked how unique they made this fight and story overall. Aaaagh but NO hints at what's happening in season 5?! ahhh now we have to wait months!

Only issue I had with the fight was representing Zhaitan with an Eye. Was really hoping they'd do something more akin to the Avatar of Mordremoth for that.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Some interesting things I noticed, Kralkatorrik said "mother" when he died.. does that mean that elder dragons have a progenitor? Also what if his kinder side was brought out when the forgotten tried to cleanse him- it didn't work but it created this duality that we see between him and his torment. Just some things to think about. I think the next season will involve at least partly helping Zaeim with the whole stabilizing Elona situation.

The Forgotten bit is an interesting concept.

Also, I don't think we'll be helping Zaeim at all. It might have just been the male charr voice actor, but there was a certain stress on the Commander's response. "Yes, Zaiem. You... will do that." There was a stress on you, as in implying "I am not helping there."

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Oh another thing, did anyone else notice the hi tech looking city backdrop? During the finale when Aurene is ascending before shooting off into space.. Also the new Legendary great sword seems to be based on this ascended state. Despite not ending on a conventional cliffhanger this episode opened up a lot of questions- also will they start removing branded terrain with season 5?

That city is Tarir. You can recognize the style of the pillars pretty easily.

Maps are stuck in time so they won't be altering the old maps. Furthermore, dragon corruption doesn't disappear with the Elder Dragon's death as shown with Orr. Even with a purification ritual to regrow plantlife, even after 6 years it was still the mess we saw it in Season 3.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Perihen the Thawk.9527 said:This is a bit tongue in cheek but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out the Deep Sea Dragon is the mother of the other five.

I wouldn't be surprised if the six of them are siblings.

That wouldn't make sense. They look nothing like each other, unlike Aurene, Vlast, and Glint looking very similar to Kralkatorrik.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Some interesting things I noticed, Kralkatorrik said "mother" when he died.. does that mean that elder dragons have a progenitor? Also what if his kinder side was brought out when the forgotten tried to cleanse him- it didn't work but it created this duality that we see between him and his torment. Just some things to think about. I think the next season will involve at least partly helping Zaeim with the whole stabilizing Elona situation.

This was right after he tossed out the otherwise unexplained "I only hope you never have to kill what you love," too. My takeaway is that we're supposed to see him as a much older and tireder Aurene, who was also forced to slay his progenitor and take her place after she went bad/mad/however they're presenting the destructive impulses now.

That doesn't explain how he called her the first of her kind though.

Aurene's able to withstand multiple forms of magic. Unlike himself.

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Eekasqueak.7850 said:also will they start removing branded terrain with season 5?I doubt we will see a change on any existing maps since MMO maps are always "time locked" to the point of the story they were made for.

We may see a future map that is in branded territory now become "unbranded" as part of the thing to show Kralk's magic slowly vanishing.

They changed maps in season 1, I think they mentioned doing some more of that.

What was said is "we could focus on expanding the boundaries and content of an existing map if that would provide a better experience than creating a new one.". Expanding the boundaries and content of an existing map. This doesn't sound like what they did in Season 1 to me, which more often than not swapped out content, but rather what was done in Season 2. That we'll get a map, then the next update will see it expanded; or like in Iron Marches, that new events just get added into the old maps.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Ninutra.7926 said:Which makes me think that all elder dragons could have an opportunity for redemption. Especially if they knew that the world wouldn't collapse if they stopped to devour magic as they did. Then again, who knows.

The main thing that makes me disagree with this particular notion is that every Elder Dragon seems to have a different personality to them. What this means is that they're not going to be as empathetic as Kralkatorrik hints at being. Or they may be empathetic, but devoid of the understanding of things like freedom of choice.

Take Zhaitan for example; the risen's dialogue, structure, and way they and Zhaitan act all suggest that Zhaitan's end-goal was to rule a nation where no one dies or loses loved ones. Depending on one's perspective and reasoning, this alone can be very empthatic and make Zhaitan seem like a caring. The main issue is that he fulfills this by forcibly slaughter and raising everyone he can, enslaving them to his will so that they have no choice but to agree with his methods and beliefs, and using that love others have for each other to get any who's resisting to give up.

There's also the fact that the Elder Dragons don't need endless magic to survive, nor do they need to be constantly eating to keep Tyria from exploding (nor is there any indication that they care about that). Mind you it's hard to know how their current actions and apparent motivations and personalities have differed from when they became Elder Dragons (as it is apparent now that, just like the Six Gods, most if not all current Elder Dragons had a predecessor - who may or may not have also been evil). This lack of needing to constantly eat would mean that, if he always cared about mortals, there was no need for him to target mortals in the first place thus no reason for him to cause himself to become apathetic to mortals through his own actions. Unless he needed magic for some other purpose - a purpose drastically different from those presented since Edge of Destiny (the desire to corrupt and consume all things - apparently in hopes to end his own torment).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:

@Alchimist.4738 said:

@ThatOddOne.4387 said:Once more the more interesting parts of the episode were the environment and reasoning behind that - The Underworld, Fissure of Woe and Melandru's Domain - Rather than anything to do with dragons.

Solid episode but the hype wasn't worth it, I won't say I am disappointed but I will say I am neutral and that's not what I wanted to be.

The Underworld is for Zhaitan, the Fissure of Woe for Balthazar, and Melandru's Domain for Mordremoth, of of them have had their magic drained by Kralkatorrik. We also know that the human gods parallel the dragon's magic, which explains why some of their dominions were pulled by Kralkatorrik.

No?

People have pointed out that those three regions are parallels to the three major releases/plots. This was no doubt intentional and it would explain why they chose the nameless domain of Melandru (which they sadly still didn't give a name to) instead of Eternal Paradise, or the Realm of Torment.

@Blocki.4931 said:The magic he absorbed connected him to the realms we fly through & he rips out of the mists when he falls in the first instance. That's what he was saying.

Indeed that would be false. The magic didn't connect him to Melandru's domain or Grenth's. Arguable about the Fissure of Woe. I think they were chosen more because familiarity and notable parallel. After all, in Episode 4 it's stated that Kralkatorrik is ravaging the Realm of Torment as well, and he absorbed no magic related to that realm in any way, shape, or form.

@"Imba.9451" said:Also, didn't Anet waaaay back then state, that dragons are simple primeval forces and beasts basically?They stated that such was the view of Tyrians. The whole "mindless forces of nature" was purely uneducated Tyrian perspective and nothing more. It was shown to be false even in the core game after Claw Island, let alone Heart of Thorns with Mordremoth.

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Also, I don't think we'll be helping Zaeim at all. It might have just been the male charr voice actor, but there was a certain stress on the Commander's response. "Yes, Zaiem. You... will do that." There was a stress on you, as in implying "I am not helping there."

Something tells me the delivery of the response is different for each of the races. As a human, my character's response delivery was more along the lines of "I already see the obvious person for the job". I dunno bout Asura, Norn or Sylvari yet but that's the vibe I got from my character when she responded to Zaiem.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

@ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Also, I don't think we'll be helping Zaeim at all. It might have just been the male charr voice actor, but there was a certain stress on the Commander's response. "Yes, Zaiem. You... will do that." There was a stress on you, as in implying "I am not helping there."

Something tells me the delivery of the response is different for each of the races. As a human, my character's response delivery was more along the lines of "I already see the obvious person for the job". I dunno bout Asura, Norn or Sylvari yet but that's the vibe I got from my character when she responded to Zaiem.

Male Sylvari sounded like:

Yeah.... YOU gonna do that....

Very uninterested.

[Ygnir.8961]

@"Ninutra.7926" said:Oh sweet, discussion on dragon psychology!(wall of text inc)

Ok, so first of all, the episode tackled quite heavy stuff, and I think writers did their best to make it somewhat simple and easy to understand. Maybe that's what's bothering some people - too simple a language and execution to give the topic justice. That being said, I liked the episode quite a bit. Now, to the proper discussion:

Second of all, I had hoped we were long past labeling the characters as "good" or "evil".

The dragons are not necessarily mysterious or "inhuman", they have instincts like any other creature. Neither good or bad.

Being aware of what you are doing (you know, since they are intelligent) can ONLY make you suffer when you realise how your deeds affect others. As a parallel, we can say a human must eat, in order to survive. But eating means sacrifice and suffering of another creature. But what else can you do, die of starvation? So to eat meat for example, you need to accept (or reject) that you are doing harm to some other creatures, in order to survive yourself. Not many of us go around and cry and feel pain and sadness for the cow we've just eaten. So it only makes sense for a huge dragon that needs endless amount of energy to survive, would be numb to the suffering of mortals. Bonus points for that they are aware of their importance in the world, keeping magical balance and all. Thus, they can eat and slaughter to their heart's content, perhaps even telling themselves they are working for the planet's benefit... which is partially true.

And so, that puts dragons (especially the elder ones) in a position where it's hard for them to feel a lot of compassion. It only would only make them suffer if they did. Especially that due to some shenanigans they literally became the necessary force to keep magic in place. So even if they'd want it another way, they probably just can't.

With Kralkatorrik, the case gets even more complicated, due to, well... his empathy! Yes, just like us, they kill and destroy, but that does not mean they are completely devoid of positive feelings. He obviously presented that he had hidden compassion (NOT ONLY FOR HIS FAMILY, MIND YOU - he saw Aurene's love for mortals as her strength!), but his instincts and his inner pain (due to the overwhelming amount of different magics inside), would only make him steer away from that.

So my point is: HIS SUFFERING WAS NOT ONLY DUE TO THE CONFLICTING MAGIC - IT WAS DUE TO HIS NATURE. A nature, which by default allows him both to be compassionate and cruel, which I guess would be the problem of all intelligent beings. To see yourself for the cruel animal that you are, while at the same time wanting to be good, is quite the burden. A burden, which you'd gladly forget, so it wouldn't sting.

Which makes me think that all elder dragons could have an opportunity for redemption. Especially if they knew that the world wouldn't collapse if they stopped to devour magic as they did. Then again, who knows.I doubt we could just talk it out with Jormag or Primordus, though. We need to have a game, after all.

So, the Dragon's "cruelty" is its nature. And I assume that Glint's "purification" was just turning her point of view, utilising potential that she had within herself anyway.If that is so, maybe Aurene truly is the first of her kind, as in, she is seemingly the first Elder Dragon not to just follow her instincts. Which I think is splendid - when you have so much power over the entire world, your decisions over it should come from a place of compassion, not wants or needs. And she is not afraid to take the responsibility, instead of following the path of destruction and ignorance, she actually goes the extra mile to see other creatures as equal, instead of just means to an end.

Thank you very much for this well written comment. Kralk suddenly showing so much empathy and talking about love and family was really weird and off-putting. It felt really badly written, but i can accept it with your explanation.

[Randulf.7614]

Why was it called War Eternal?

[perilisk.1874]

@Randulf.7614 said:Why was it called War Eternal?

Because the meta is on an endless loop. And we kill Shadow Army, which makes us honorary Eternals. Anyway, I guess the canon reason is whatever Zaishen holy verses were in the trailer, and I think that A and Z mentioned in the first instance.

[maxwelgm.4315]

@Randulf.7614 said:Why was it called War Eternal?

Among the many possible interpretations, I would like to mention one that is very likely and doesn't require us to delve into gameplay aspects such as the map is on loop and Kralkatorrik travels through time and space etc. The simple explanation is: it refers to Kralkatorrik warring against his tormented self, with said torment starting before any of the characters we have ever known were born (including Glint). This might as well be then considered eternal; we don't know how old the Elder Dragons are but supposedly it's unimaginably old, and Kralkatorrik went mad an unimaginably long time ago.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@Arden.7480 said:The Elder Dragons aren't bad guys, they have been tormented by the magics they got... Wow, that's what I always secretly wanted! Tormented by their own dragonhood... Child of my child... Woow.... Thanks Arenanet writers for such beautiful ending. Thank you...

Praise Kralkatorrik, Joko and the new Elder Dragon Aurene!!!

eh, you misunderstood what was going on. Kralkatorik was not tormented by his dragonhood. He was tormented by the aspects of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Balthazar which did not fit his own magical structure and caused internal problems.

[kasoki.5180]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Arden.7480 said:The Elder Dragons aren't bad guys, they have been tormented by the magics they got... Wow, that's what I always secretly wanted! Tormented by their own dragonhood... Child of my child... Woow.... Thanks Arenanet writers for such beautiful ending. Thank you...

Praise Kralkatorrik, Joko and the new Elder Dragon Aurene!!!

eh, you misunderstood what was going on. Kralkatorik was not tormented by his dragonhood. He was tormented by the aspects of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Balthazar which did not fit his own magical structure and caused internal problems.

The way I understood it is that this torrment has been here longer than just that. If anything so long that IT is actually what we know as Kralkkatorik.

I mean he told us that its the reason why he destroys...