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Spoilers: Foreshadow of next season??


Rubedo.8769

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Haven’t seen anyone else mention it yet but did anyone pick up on what Kralk said at the end of the fight?

“Mother”

Could this be foreshadowing something? Could there be a Mother of Elder Dragons? What could this mean as far as story?

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It seems to imply one of two things. The Elder Dragons may not have been the first to hold the powers that they wield after all, since they had parents and were probably normal creatures at one point.

So either the Elder Dragons inherited their power, or it was never theirs to begin with.

I don't remember if there's any of that we already knew or was implied, but that seems to open up possibilities of how to deal with the Dragons, or what else might be out there.

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Given the drastic difference in appearances between the Elder Dragons, I doubt there's some singular "mother of Elder Dragons" out there. Rather, I think that this is implying that Kralkatorrik was not always an Elder Dragon, and had succeeded someone before him. My initial theory / thought process being that Kralkatorrik was once a Glint to the previous Elder Crystal Dragon - that his mother was Elder Dragon before him and went insane and he killed and usurped her.

Gives rise to the theory of the Elder Dragons having gone insane from too much magic - as does the whole of Kralkatorrik's Torment.

What I found curious is that the inside of Kralkatorrik was practically another dimension in appearance. I wonder if we ended up actually going to The All's crystal domain and wasn't actually inside Kralkatorrik.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Given the drastic difference in appearances between the Elder Dragons, I doubt there's some singular "mother of Elder Dragons" out there. Rather, I think that this is implying that Kralkatorrik was not always an Elder Dragon, and had succeeded someone before him. My initial theory / thought process being that Kralkatorrik was once a Glint to the previous Elder Crystal Dragon - that his mother was Elder Dragon before him and went insane and he killed and usurped her.

Gives rise to the theory of the Elder Dragons having gone insane from too much magic - as does the whole of Kralkatorrik's Torment.

What I found curious is that the inside of Kralkatorrik was practically another dimension in appearance. I wonder if we ended up actually going to The All's crystal domain and wasn't actually inside Kralkatorrik.

Perhaps the Elder Dragons are all born from this "Mother" but at some point they became driven mad by all the magic they cosnumed thus resulting in them killing their "Mother" which they all cared deeply about but due to their madness they had no control of their reasoning.

There is a saying I have being "The first victim of the monster called Madness is the form it takes and only in death will the first victim be free."

It would explain why Kralk greatly wish for Aurene to never have to experience the pain of killing someone she deeply cares about in her life.

However, from what also Kralk said it seem Aurene is the first of Dragons that can handle this much magic without falling into the Madness that drives all Elder Dragons.

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@Rubedo.8769 said:Haven’t seen anyone else mention it yet but did anyone pick up on what Kralk said at the end of the fight?

“Mother”

Could this be foreshadowing something? Could there be a Mother of Elder Dragons? What could this mean as far as story?

That spear really hurt, but he got cut off before he could finish saying something that could jeopardize their T rating.

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The All being a pseudo mother of all dragons wouldn't be too farfetched.

The vision of the Pale Tree in Omadd's Machine isn't wholely seen as the actual Pale Tree (or to be more precise, Pale "Mother"). The Pale Tree doesn't even know why she would be part of that vision so the tree might be more representative of The All at being the tree/mother and the Elder Dragons as creatures born from this tree the same way the Sylvari are born from a single tree and each Dragon is shown to have its appearance based on the Sphere of Influence they are given by The All. And the other races (outside of the Humans) are also born from this "World Tree" and the Elder Dragons are the first of the creatures to be born (so the Elders are like the Firstborn Sylvaris and the other races are secondborn onward)

Just a theory though, not an actual fact.

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its easy, now shes a elder dragon, probably some group/whatsover will become with a weird argument to kill her. So next season is about to protect Ed Aurene. The problem of this narrative is the one of always: why the hell an elder dragon the supreme in power, will need protection?

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@ugrakarma.9416 said:its easy, now shes a elder dragon, probably some group/whatsover will become with a weird argument to kill her. So next season is about to protect Ed Aurene. The problem of this narrative is the one of always: why the hell an elder dragon the supreme in power, will need protection?

Uh, we killed three already? But yeah, I could see this being a good opportunity for an antagonist PC analog.

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I think season 5 will be more feature focused and shorter (real time).

We wont get a new map each episode, so i think a new story every 2 months isnt farfetched.

I also think that this season wont focus on an Elder Dragon Plot but is more finishing older stories.

At the end, we see aurene again with the next ex pack.

The discription of the Gen 2 GS also talks about a new technolegy, probably hinting at new features to come.

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I remember Kralk said to Aurene something among the lines "I hope you'll never have to kill someone dear" then at his death he mentioned the word "mother" All I could take from this is that kralk's mother was the previous crystal elder dragon, and, for reasons unkown, Kralk killed her, either by madness or because circumstances forced him to do it, and then he himself became the next crystal elder dragon. This certainly hold some familiar pattern with how the gods usually pass on their godhood: by having someone take it from them, usually by killing them and usurping their power.

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@"ChronoPinoyX.7923" said:The All being a pseudo mother of all dragons wouldn't be too farfetched.

At this point it kind of would. Since The All isn't a living thing, it's a system of multiple things.

The vision of the Pale Tree in Omadd's Machine isn't wholely seen as the actual Pale Tree (or to be more precise, Pale "Mother"). The Pale Tree doesn't even know why she would be part of that vision so the tree might be more representative of The All at being the tree/mother and the Elder Dragons as creatures born from this tree the same way the Sylvari are born from a single tree and each Dragon is shown to have its appearance based on the Sphere of Influence they are given by The All. And the other races (outside of the Humans) are also born from this "World Tree" and the Elder Dragons are the first of the creatures to be born (so the Elders are like the Firstborn Sylvaris and the other races are secondborn onward)

The Pale Tree is not part of The All in the vision from Omadd's Machine. There is no tree in The All. She's a barrier / passageway the mind uses to witness The All. Our vision followed the same path of what Scarlet Briar saw, and as sylvari she used her connection to the Pale Tree to follow it to Mordremoth which led her to The All. She's connected to it through Mordremoth and she damn well knows this (she said otherwise because the connection was still a hush hush secret).

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Well Skyscales are the first native dragons to tyria, its stated that they came into being when kralk fell through the mists? So does that mean the elder dragons might not be natives, rather beings from the mists such as the gods? This could imply that there might be more even on tyria than we realize, we have encountered the ones we know for sure yea? But it could be there are others elsewhere in the world perhaps even one who reigns them all in and maybe that is where Aurene went to meet up with the "Mother" so to speak?

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I don't think the skyscales are the "first native dragons". Unless such is said in the collection to get a skyscale, they only said the skyscales were a new species.

We still have all those Bone Dragons and other gargantuan draconian bones scattered across Tyria/Elona of no real origin, as well as Canthan dragons (Saltspray Dragons (similar to wyverns) and Rockhide Dragons (similar to drakes). Not only that, but the dialogue calls wyverns and drakes as "lesser dragons" iirc.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I don't think the skyscales are the "first native dragons". Unless such is said in the collection to get a skyscale, they only said the skyscales were a new species.

We still have all those Bone Dragons and other gargantuan draconian bones scattered across Tyria/Elona of no real origin, as well as Canthan dragons (Saltspray Dragons (similar to wyverns) and Rockhide Dragons (similar to drakes). Not only that, but the dialogue calls wyverns and drakes as "lesser dragons" iirc.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I don't think the skyscales are the "first native dragons". Unless such is said in the collection to get a skyscale, they only said the skyscales were a new species.

We still have all those Bone Dragons and other gargantuan draconian bones scattered across Tyria/Elona of no real origin, as well as Canthan dragons (Saltspray Dragons (similar to wyverns) and Rockhide Dragons (similar to drakes). Not only that, but the dialogue calls wyverns and drakes as "lesser dragons" iirc.

Gorrik says that the SkyScales are ageing rapidly fast because they were created as adults but new hatched Skyscales do not.

I remember him or aurene saying that they needed to be battle ready from the get go.And this effected thier ageing.

They are 100% new creations.

Created to fight kralk.

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The more I learn about the elder dragons, and the more the Pale Tree mentions "The Soul of Tyria", the more it sounds less of an abstract concept and that Tyria itself has an actual soul. As if it is, or at least once was, a living entity.Tyria itself could be something akin to an elder dragon.

In the Eternal Alchemy simulations and Omadd's machine, we can see a central white orb. This likely represents Tyria. But it's all the magic in Tyria and within its living beings, or the actual Tyria itself?If one takes a better look, it isn't actually not 1 orb. But two. A bright central orb inside a translucent orb, with many small lights fluttering over the surface of the larger orb. The smaller orb inside is at least as large as the dragon orbs.

If you look at leylines and the leyline system, they are practically like blood vessels. And we know that dragons eat magic. It would not be strange for such a magical creature to have magic as blood.

All elder dragons appear to be of elemental nature. Primordus was indistinguishable from rock when asura scanned him while dormant, Kralkatorrik appears to be almost completely made out of metallick and crystals, Zhaitan was completely rotten and appeared to have been replacing part of his body with the corpses of risen dragons, the Mouth of Mordremoth looked wooden, and was wrapped in vines.What if they weren't always like that, and they were instead corrupted by that magic? The more they absorbed magic, the larger they grew and the more their bodies changed into the elements of the magic they absorbed.It would not be impossible for an even larger dragon to consume so much magic that they turned into magic-infused rock like leystone themselves.

It also seems that dragons can may offspring that won't look quite like them. Aurene, Vlast, Glint and Kralkatorrik may have had the same fundamental body plan and similar features, but they were way more different from each other than animals like humans.

If you put all of these assumptions together, Tyria could be or have been once an extremely large entity that somehow became the planet, or the foundation for the planet and its leyline system, or that is laying dead or dormant in the core of the planet, and that could be the 'Mother' of all the elder dragons.

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:Well Skyscales are the first native dragons to tyria, its stated that they came into being when kralk fell through the mists? So does that mean the elder dragons might not be natives, rather beings from the mists such as the gods? This could imply that there might be more even on tyria than we realize, we have encountered the ones we know for sure yea? But it could be there are others elsewhere in the world perhaps even one who reigns them all in and maybe that is where Aurene went to meet up with the "Mother" so to speak?You may have misheard. I recall the opposite: Gorrik saying they were not native to Tyria, and Aurene saying that they are 'new'. So they were likely made, brought from somewhere in the mists or pulled from the memories of similar dragons in the mists by Aurene with her growing powers.
The same way she was able to 'brand' the ground like Kralkatorrik does, she may have also become able to create new creatures. Primordus is the most notable creature maker, as practically all of his Destroyers were made rather than corrupted, but Kralkatorrik was also shown making creatures rather than corrupting them like the Wrathbringer and the Shatterer.

Skyscales may not have crystal bits like Aurene and Glint, but let's not forget that Glint looked more crystalline than Aurene, and the Skyscale are not her children, but her creation. So it should not be hard for her to make them without the crystal bits, using only fleshy parts from drakes, wyverns and herself as reference. Glint also created many crystal elementals. So Aurene should be able to do something similar, making them completely fleshy rather than completely crystal.

And so skyscales would be distant relatives to lesser dragons like wyverns and drakes, but not through evolution, but through origin.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I don't think the skyscales are the "first native dragons". Unless such is said in the collection to get a skyscale, they only said the skyscales were a new species.

We still have all those Bone Dragons and other gargantuan draconian bones scattered across Tyria/Elona of no real origin, as well as Canthan dragons (Saltspray Dragons (similar to wyverns) and Rockhide Dragons (similar to drakes). Not only that, but the dialogue calls wyverns and drakes as "lesser dragons" iirc.

There's definitely true dragons in Tyria.

GW1 counted as 'dragon' many draconic creatures that are not true dragons like drakes.Kirin appear to have draconic features, but do not seem to be considered draconic by Dragonslaying upgrades.There's also nian, who appear to be lion-shaped draconic creatures, but there's no way to test what they are since we can't damage them with anything but fireworks and that kills them instantly.
But Saltspray dragons like Kuunavang could speak before the Jade Wind drove them mad, which means they were likely true dragons. This also tells us that dragons do not necessarily have to have 4 legs and wings to be true dragons, and that the miniature mystic dragon could be a miniature of an actual type of dragon, not just a toy from someone's imagination.

In GW2, drakes, bats, wyverns and hydras have draconic features, but are not considered true dragons. At most one could say that they are lesser dragons.

Risen dragons like Tequatl do not have any signs of being stitched together like abominations, which means there had to be an original dragon to become risen.
And bone dragons from GW1 may be much smaller, but they could only have existed if there was dragons before, and they appear to be quite intelligent too since there was Dragon Liches. One doesn't become a lich without being a powerful and intelligent magic user in life.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The Pale Tree is not part of The All in the vision from Omadd's Machine. There is no tree in The All. She's a barrier / passageway the mind uses to witness The All. Our vision followed the same path of what Scarlet Briar saw, and as sylvari she used her connection to the Pale Tree to follow it to Mordremoth which led her to The All. She's connected to it through Mordremoth and she kitten well knows this (she said otherwise because the connection was still a hush hush secret).

I think you're taking this into a literal sense and going by what Ogden says, trying defineThe All only makes it less understandable so I'm going more speculative of what each part represents than actually define the Pale Tree vision as a barrier. And from what Scarlet recorded in her lab at Dry Top, your statement of it being a barrier contradicts the note in Scarlet's lab which states:

This hand-drawn image is more symbolic than literal. It shows the world as a machine with various moving parts. The Pale Tree sits at its heart

The Pale Tree sits at its heart (the centre of The All as we see it). Why would it? If The Pale Tree itself doesn't know why it would even be a part of the vision then another point to take might be that The Tree seen during the vision may be more akin to a World Tree like scenario and potentially that World Tree itself would have an avatar similar to the Pale Tree itself. And it wouldn't be too far fetched considering part of GW lore takes inspiration from Nordic Mythology (Jormag's name alone already shows that as he's basically Jormugandr).

Again, all speculations on my end. The only truth that we got out of Omadd's Machine at this current moment is that if more than 2 spheres of influence are destroyed, it will destroy Tyria itself. If we didn't have Aurene when we destroyed Kralkatorrik, we may have just destroyed Tyria at that point.

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That drawing by Scarlet directly conflicts with the Priory's map of the All. And Taimi's simulation that had the Tyria, the central orb, destabilize when Jormag's and Primordus' orbs died.

File:The_All_%28texture%29.png

It would also make zero sense for Zhaitan's orb to crash into the Pale Tree (which was confirmed a representation of Zhaitan's magic spreading into Tyria, iirc), or for the Elder Dragons to revolve around the Pale Tree.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I don't think the skyscales are the "first native dragons". Unless such is said in the collection to get a skyscale, they only said the skyscales were a new species.

We still have all those Bone Dragons and other gargantuan draconian bones scattered across Tyria/Elona of no real origin, as well as Canthan dragons (Saltspray Dragons (similar to wyverns) and Rockhide Dragons (similar to drakes). Not only that, but the dialogue calls wyverns and drakes as "lesser dragons" iirc.

You know, i think those giant skeletons in Elona (like at the entrance of Desert Highlands) are just the remains of some really oversized Sand Sharks, rather than being the remains of dragons. They don't seem to have any paws or wings after all. But i could be wrong.

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@Sir Alric.5078 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I don't think the skyscales are the "first native dragons". Unless such is said in the collection to get a skyscale, they only said the skyscales were a new species.

We still have all those Bone Dragons and other gargantuan draconian bones scattered across Tyria/Elona of no real origin, as well as Canthan dragons (Saltspray Dragons (similar to wyverns) and Rockhide Dragons (similar to drakes). Not only that, but the dialogue calls wyverns and drakes as "lesser dragons" iirc.

You know, i think those giant skeletons in Elona (like at the entrance of Desert Highlands) are just the remains of some really oversized Sand Sharks, rather than being the remains of dragons. They don't seem to have any paws or wings after all. But i could be wrong.

Depends on which ones you're talking about. We had two skull styles in GW1, but I think GW2 has three now. One of the three, often seen in the Crystal Oasis and Elon Riverlands, are leviathan skeletons. But other skulls, found in Desert Highlands and The Desolation (as well as Bitterfrost Frontier and Auric Basin) are unknown. One's a tusked version while the other is more serpentine, matching GW1's skulls, iirc.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:That drawing by Scarlet directly conflicts with the Priory's map of the All. And Taimi's simulation that had the Tyria, the central orb, destabilize when Jormag's and Primordus' orbs died.

File:The_All_%28texture%29.png

It would also make zero sense for Zhaitan's orb to crash into the Pale Tree (which was confirmed a representation of Zhaitan's magic spreading into Tyria, iirc), or for the Elder Dragons to revolve around the Pale Tree.

Again, not talking about the Pale Tree here. Talking about something similar but on a world scale where all life originates from, hence "World Tree" where all life is born that summons an avatar similar to the Pale Tree.

Not conflicting at all either since the central sphere remains the same as a representation where all life originates and the other spheres of influence can destroy that central sphere of life if imbalanced.

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