War Eternal spoilers - Kralkatorrik

[maxwelgm.4315]

@kasoki.5180 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Arden.7480 said:The Elder Dragons aren't bad guys, they have been tormented by the magics they got... Wow, that's what I always secretly wanted! Tormented by their own dragonhood... Child of my child... Woow.... Thanks Arenanet writers for such beautiful ending. Thank you...

Praise Kralkatorrik, Joko and the new Elder Dragon Aurene!!!

eh, you misunderstood what was going on. Kralkatorik was not tormented by his dragonhood. He was tormented by the aspects of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Balthazar which did not fit his own magical structure and caused internal problems.

The way I understood it is that this torrment has been here longer than just that. If anything so long that IT is actually what we know as Kralkkatorik.

I mean he told us that its the reason why he destroys...

This is correct. The magic Kralkatorrik has absorbed from Balthazar, Zhaitan and Mordremoth actually allowed the instability inside of his heart and the separation of his original self from Torment to begin with. He was his Tormented self for as long as everyone alive knows him, including Glint. He was already tormented upon awakening, in other words, and probably way before that, in an age no one except Elder Dragons can remember.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Arden.7480 said:The Elder Dragons aren't bad guys, they have been tormented by the magics they got... Wow, that's what I always secretly wanted! Tormented by their own dragonhood... Child of my child... Woow.... Thanks Arenanet writers for such beautiful ending. Thank you...

Praise Kralkatorrik, Joko and the new Elder Dragon Aurene!!!

eh, you misunderstood what was going on. Kralkatorik was not tormented by his dragonhood. He was tormented by the aspects of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Balthazar which did not fit his own magical structure and caused internal problems.

Except that Kralkatorrik's Torment predates Zhaitan's death. By eons. My understanding is that since the Elder Dragons consume ley lines, and ley lines are a mixture of all types of magic, they're eating conflicting magics from the world itself and this harms them drawing them into insanity. Or at least that happened to Kralkatorrik.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@kasoki.5180 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Arden.7480 said:The Elder Dragons aren't bad guys, they have been tormented by the magics they got... Wow, that's what I always secretly wanted! Tormented by their own dragonhood... Child of my child... Woow.... Thanks Arenanet writers for such beautiful ending. Thank you...

Praise Kralkatorrik, Joko and the new Elder Dragon Aurene!!!

eh, you misunderstood what was going on. Kralkatorik was not tormented by his dragonhood. He was tormented by the aspects of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Balthazar which did not fit his own magical structure and caused internal problems.

The way I understood it is that this torrment has been here longer than just that. If anything so long that IT is actually what we know as Kralkkatorik.

I mean he told us that its the reason why he destroys...

This is correct. The magic Kralkatorrik has absorbed from Balthazar, Zhaitan and Mordremoth actually allowed the instability inside of his heart and the separation of his original self from Torment to begin with. He was his Tormented self for as long as everyone alive knows him, including Glint. He was already tormented upon awakening, in other words, and probably way before that, in an age no one except Elder Dragons can remember.

I dunno about the facets causing the separation. The Forgotten ritual theory seems more likely. Personally though, I think it was the fact we were next to his heart, which seemed to be the one thing not twisted; or it was that the near-death experience of his body actually being dead that caused it. Or heck, all of the above.

[Randulf.7614]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@Arden.7480 said:The Elder Dragons aren't bad guys, they have been tormented by the magics they got... Wow, that's what I always secretly wanted! Tormented by their own dragonhood... Child of my child... Woow.... Thanks Arenanet writers for such beautiful ending. Thank you...

Praise Kralkatorrik, Joko and the new Elder Dragon Aurene!!!

eh, you misunderstood what was going on. Kralkatorik was not tormented by his dragonhood. He was tormented by the aspects of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Balthazar which did not fit his own magical structure and caused internal problems.

His torment predates the game. He showed all his rage and malice was very much a part of him after he rose, branded Ascalon, attacked Ebonhawke and during his battle with destiny’s edge where snaff could see into his mind.

[Starfall Leyline.2481]

@"Ninutra.7926" said:Oh sweet, discussion on dragon psychology!(wall of text inc)

Ok, so first of all, the episode tackled quite heavy stuff, and I think writers did their best to make it somewhat simple and easy to understand. Maybe that's what's bothering some people - too simple a language and execution to give the topic justice. That being said, I liked the episode quite a bit. Now, to the proper discussion:

Second of all, I had hoped we were long past labeling the characters as "good" or "evil".

The dragons are not necessarily mysterious or "inhuman", they have instincts like any other creature. Neither good or bad.

Being aware of what you are doing (you know, since they are intelligent) can ONLY make you suffer when you realise how your deeds affect others. As a parallel, we can say a human must eat, in order to survive. But eating means sacrifice and suffering of another creature. But what else can you do, die of starvation? So to eat meat for example, you need to accept (or reject) that you are doing harm to some other creatures, in order to survive yourself. Not many of us go around and cry and feel pain and sadness for the cow we've just eaten. So it only makes sense for a huge dragon that needs endless amount of energy to survive, would be numb to the suffering of mortals. Bonus points for that they are aware of their importance in the world, keeping magical balance and all. Thus, they can eat and slaughter to their heart's content, perhaps even telling themselves they are working for the planet's benefit... which is partially true.

And so, that puts dragons (especially the elder ones) in a position where it's hard for them to feel a lot of compassion. It only would only make them suffer if they did. Especially that due to some shenanigans they literally became the necessary force to keep magic in place. So even if they'd want it another way, they probably just can't.

With Kralkatorrik, the case gets even more complicated, due to, well... his empathy! Yes, just like us, they kill and destroy, but that does not mean they are completely devoid of positive feelings. He obviously presented that he had hidden compassion (NOT ONLY FOR HIS FAMILY, MIND YOU - he saw Aurene's love for mortals as her strength!), but his instincts and his inner pain (due to the overwhelming amount of different magics inside), would only make him steer away from that.

So my point is: HIS SUFFERING WAS NOT ONLY DUE TO THE CONFLICTING MAGIC - IT WAS DUE TO HIS NATURE. A nature, which by default allows him both to be compassionate and cruel, which I guess would be the problem of all intelligent beings. To see yourself for the cruel animal that you are, while at the same time wanting to be good, is quite the burden. A burden, which you'd gladly forget, so it wouldn't sting.

Which makes me think that all elder dragons could have an opportunity for redemption. Especially if they knew that the world wouldn't collapse if they stopped to devour magic as they did. Then again, who knows.I doubt we could just talk it out with Jormag or Primordus, though. We need to have a game, after all.

So, the Dragon's "cruelty" is its nature. And I assume that Glint's "purification" was just turning her point of view, utilising potential that she had within herself anyway.If that is so, maybe Aurene truly is the first of her kind, as in, she is seemingly the first Elder Dragon not to just follow her instincts. Which I think is splendid - when you have so much power over the entire world, your decisions over it should come from a place of compassion, not wants or needs. And she is not afraid to take the responsibility, instead of following the path of destruction and ignorance, she actually goes the extra mile to see other creatures as equal, instead of just means to an end.

I like this post a lot, and I agree with many of your points. However, I disagree with you (at last party) on one: that of her being the first of her kind just because she didn't follow her instincts. While that is true, the "first of her kind" comment comes directly after Kralk points out how the magics remain in harmony within her instead of tearing her apart like they were him. She could maintain all of the magics in harmony, whereas it caused him only torment because he could only naturally maintain one.

So while part of it is definitely that she is coming from a place of compassion, the other part is that she is... ("physically" seems the wrong word here...) -ah, that she is inherently capable of absorbing the magics the other dragons do without them falling into disharmony.

[Mem no Fushia.7604]

Something that whisphers to you that you would gain anything by doing bad things is/are demons. They are old.