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[spoilers] vague ending (don't read without finishing)

Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited May 15, 2019 in Lore

So.. can someone help me make some sense of the ending?

There are two major things that are just completely confusing me

Firstly, The way Kralkatorrik talks. As if he's redeeming himself? Or wanting to be 'a good parent'?
He wanted to be defeated, and reluinqished? I don't quite get was happening. And now those facets of Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar are in Aurene?
So.. that means she's gonna be in torment, now?
and Secondly Aurene wants to show us what lies ahead.. and flies of?
what lies ahead? what was the point of that? Don't make such an explanative statement.. and just fly off.

All in all, they were amazing instances, the flying combat, the new area, everything was visually stunning.
But my major gripes were how cheesy her revival were (I mean, people were speculating about Joko, but a lot of us thought "anet would never do that, it's too cheap"), and how confusing the ending was. That was (in my opinion) nothing cohesive about kralkattorik's defeat,
or aurene's conversation at the end.. it's as if everything ended halfway a conversation or something

But my theory of "Aurene had to die, so she can fight with her mother and brother against kralkatorrik in the mists, forever" was apparantly wrong. So at least you managed to surprise me.

To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
..jormag? Who's that?

Comments

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019
    • Kralkatorrik's dialogue with his corrupted self: read Lore section for discussion on this very topic.
    • When I read your title, it sounded like: "If you start reading this, you may not stop until you're done. " :p
    • The ending: well, guess it will be a big surprise; maybe it's something that ANet does not want to have discussed before people get to experience the actual thing, as it might be perceived negatively by some in theory.
  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think the "Aurene had to die" part was wrong. I think the ascension thing can still hold true and that's when it happened essentially, which is why afterwards she can freely communicate with us.

    For now I am fine with her just flying away. She has a lot of things to do, like collecting more of the magic that was released, getting to know her new powers etc. She might fly around and clean up after Kralk, wouldn't that be cool? Time will tell.

    What Kralks dialogue showed in my opinion was the mere fact that Elder Dragons are not inherently bad. They won't go out of their way to ignore you, but they won't give a kitten about collateral damage either. Showing some compassion towards his offspring may just be a door leading to further plot developments, like getting to know where dragons do come from.

    I think it's fair to liken an Elder Dragon to any other animal, with the difference that they have at least a form of higher sentience given their cognitive abilities. They love their offspring like any other animal would.

    I rather choose death.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They literally tell us in the story that Aurene is the first kind of dragon that can absorb multiable kinds of magic without negativ effects.

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    They literally tell us in the story that Aurene is the first kind of dragon that can absorb multiable kinds of magic without negativ effects.

    I must've missed that.
    Remember where/when that was said?

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    They literally tell us in the story that Aurene is the first kind of dragon that can absorb multiable kinds of magic without negativ effects.

    I must've missed that.
    Remember where/when that was said?

    If i remember correctly, it was kralk that said something like;

    She is the first to not feel torment from mixing different kinds of magic.

    I will replay it today. Then i will tell when it wad said.

  • Ayakaru.6583Ayakaru.6583 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    They literally tell us in the story that Aurene is the first kind of dragon that can absorb multiable kinds of magic without negativ effects.

    I must've missed that.
    Remember where/when that was said?

    If i remember correctly, it was kralk that said something like;

    She is the first to not feel torment from mixing different kinds of magic.

    I will replay it today. Then i will tell when it wad said.

    I remembering him saying she was the first of her kind, but that sounded more like he was convincing himself that she wasn't betraying him..
    might be wrong, though, I'll have to re-read it myself, too.

    To defeat the dragons, see the good in them.
    Zhaitan reunites lost ones, primordus creates fertile land, mordremoth spreads the green, and jormag..
    ..jormag? Who's that?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    Firstly, The way Kralkatorrik talks. As if he's redeeming himself? Or wanting to be 'a good parent'?
    He wanted to be defeated, and reluinqished? I don't quite get was happening. And now those facets of Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar are in Aurene?
    So.. that means she's gonna be in torment, now?
    and Secondly Aurene wants to show us what lies ahead.. and flies of?
    what lies ahead? what was the point of that? Don't make such an explanative statement.. and just fly off.

    • Yes, he's wanting to redeem himself. Basically, he was driven to madness through some past event eons ago, resulting in the evil, hating-everything being that Glint talks about and is shown in Edge of Destiny. This has only been made worse over the centuries as he consumed more and more magic that the madness drove him to do. On his deathbed, he's finally able to regain a small part of his own sanity, and he's basically fighting himself as Aurene kills him, his sanity growing stronger as his madness weakens.
    • The sane side of him that resurfaced wants to die out of remorse for what he's become.
    • Not those facets, no, she merely blocked them off, not consumed them. Though she did consume Mordremoth's and Balthazar's magic on her own.
    • Not necessarily. Possible, but Kralkatorrik hints that she won't be. He says that the magic inside of her is not in conflict and she's long had Mordremoth's magic (and her own that's the same as )
    • Like she says, she wants to, but cannot. She cannot put it into words. She flew off to fulfill her purpose as Elder Dragon.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • SweetPotato.7456SweetPotato.7456 Member ✭✭✭

    all you need to read regarding Kralkatorrik 's dialog is "Mother..."

    Deep Sea Dragon is coming!!! Bubble!!!

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    all you need to read regarding Kralkatorrik 's dialog is "Mother..."

    Deep Sea Dragon is coming!!! Bubble!!!

    why did you say two completely unrelated things
    that's like saying: "i saw your sister at starbucks. we're going to disneyland"

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • SweetPotato.7456SweetPotato.7456 Member ✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    all you need to read regarding Kralkatorrik 's dialog is "Mother..."

    Deep Sea Dragon is coming!!! Bubble!!!

    why did you say two completely unrelated things
    that's like saying: "i saw your sister at starbucks. we're going to disneyland"

    i can't help you if your imagination is limited.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    all you need to read regarding Kralkatorrik 's dialog is "Mother..."

    Deep Sea Dragon is coming!!! Bubble!!!

    why did you say two completely unrelated things
    that's like saying: "i saw your sister at starbucks. we're going to disneyland"

    i can't help you if your imagination is limited.

    i can imagine a connection, i can also imagine a connection between starbucks and disneyland or super mario and the Normandy landings

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    • Not necessarily. Possible, but Kralkatorrik hints that she won't be. He says that the magic inside of her is not in conflict and she's long had Mordremoth's magic (and her own that's the same as )

    I suppose it's due to her bond with the commander? Actually, seeing what was going on with Kraalkatorik puts a lot of what Glint said in the first instance of Ep5 in context.

    But I still don't know what Ascension has to do with it. Clearly not related to dying, since Sweet Baby Aurene apparently only ever got to Mostly Dead. Maybe it's LS5 stuff.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ascension from the Crystal Desert likely has nothing to do with it, and it was just ArenaNet putting in a familiar word to spark false leads because their writing's so predictable that it gets bandwagoned despite inconsistencies and lack of logic.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • SweetPotato.7456SweetPotato.7456 Member ✭✭✭

    @derd.6413 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    all you need to read regarding Kralkatorrik 's dialog is "Mother..."

    Deep Sea Dragon is coming!!! Bubble!!!

    why did you say two completely unrelated things
    that's like saying: "i saw your sister at starbucks. we're going to disneyland"

    i can't help you if your imagination is limited.

    i can imagine a connection, i can also imagine a connection between starbucks and disneyland or super mario and the Normandy landings

    Off course you can. Although I can't help if you are trying to troll, frankly, if you want to keep going imagining what you want to imagine, please feel free. I am not telling you what my post is about. It is definitely related to the ending, is all that mattered.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    all you need to read regarding Kralkatorrik 's dialog is "Mother..."

    Deep Sea Dragon is coming!!! Bubble!!!

    why did you say two completely unrelated things
    that's like saying: "i saw your sister at starbucks. we're going to disneyland"

    i can't help you if your imagination is limited.

    i can imagine a connection, i can also imagine a connection between starbucks and disneyland or super mario and the Normandy landings

    Off course you can. Although I can't help if you are trying to troll, frankly, if you want to keep going imagining what you want to imagine, please feel free. I am not telling you what my post is about. It is definitely related to the ending, is all that mattered.

    The deep sea dragon has no relation to anything said or seen in War Eternal is his point. It seems that you're making an imaginative, speculative, wide, jump that Kralkatorrik calling out "mother" is a reference to the deep sea dragon.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • SweetPotato.7456SweetPotato.7456 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    all you need to read regarding Kralkatorrik 's dialog is "Mother..."

    Deep Sea Dragon is coming!!! Bubble!!!

    why did you say two completely unrelated things
    that's like saying: "i saw your sister at starbucks. we're going to disneyland"

    i can't help you if your imagination is limited.

    i can imagine a connection, i can also imagine a connection between starbucks and disneyland or super mario and the Normandy landings

    Off course you can. Although I can't help if you are trying to troll, frankly, if you want to keep going imagining what you want to imagine, please feel free. I am not telling you what my post is about. It is definitely related to the ending, is all that mattered.

    The deep sea dragon has no relation to anything said or seen in War Eternal is his point. It seems that you're making an imaginative, speculative, wide, jump that Kralkatorrik calling out "mother" is a reference to the deep sea dragon.

    Hence I said Imagination. Can't help it if the person wants to control what other people think , can't I .

    Also can you please read what my original post said ? {sorry you did read}

    The last word of Krakatorrik is "Mother "

    It is an imagination. How can it be a wide jump? Are you saying my imagination should be confine to a certain "area" ?

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:

    @derd.6413 said:

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    all you need to read regarding Kralkatorrik 's dialog is "Mother..."

    Deep Sea Dragon is coming!!! Bubble!!!

    why did you say two completely unrelated things
    that's like saying: "i saw your sister at starbucks. we're going to disneyland"

    i can't help you if your imagination is limited.

    i can imagine a connection, i can also imagine a connection between starbucks and disneyland or super mario and the Normandy landings

    Off course you can. Although I can't help if you are trying to troll, frankly, if you want to keep going imagining what you want to imagine, please feel free. I am not telling you what my post is about. It is definitely related to the ending, is all that mattered.

    The deep sea dragon has no relation to anything said or seen in War Eternal is his point. It seems that you're making an imaginative, speculative, wide, jump that Kralkatorrik calling out "mother" is a reference to the deep sea dragon.

    Hence I said Imagination. Can't help it if the person wants to control what other people think , can't I .

    Also can you please read what my original post said ? {sorry you did read}

    The last word of Krakatorrik is "Mother "

    It is an imagination. How can it be a wide jump? Are you saying my imagination should be confine to a certain "area" ?

    i think you're confusing an imaginative post with an insubstantial one

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • SweetPotato.7456SweetPotato.7456 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    The ending to the last living story was not a vague one, it is a very clear one to me, in fact when Aurene is "branded" I thought, she can't be "branded" because she is pure, I link the situation to all the premonitions Glint gave, that turned out with the same results, this right there, is always a very strong and clear tell tale for the next part of the story where the main character isn't dead, it is usually a trial that the character has to go through to reach the next "level". So, I searched the wiki and found that she is in fact the last Scion, that is why she, 100%, cannot be dead. But how they "resurrected" her is crappy at best, Yes, I agree Joko was a cheesy revival for Aurene. So many back stories could have been used. "disappointed" But I did like the end where they kill all of Krakatorrik's torments.

    When I read the original post, it felt to me like it is musing on what if Aurene was dead. How can she be dead. Its clear as day that she is in a cocoon state. That is why i am giving a direction of what I think might be happening next. That last word of Krakatorrik is the tell tale. It is like when you watch a movie, you wait for the credit to ends to watch that tiny snippet after, to see what happens next.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    Aurene's not in a cocoon state. She's ascended into being an Elder Dragon.

    Kralkatorrik's last word isn't foreboding or a tell tale sign of anything. Just before saying "Mother" he tells Aurene "I hope you never have to kill what you love." When you connect the two, rather than implying there's a still living "Mother of Elder Dragons" (let alone that such is the deep sea dragon), to me it implies that Kralkatorrik had to kill his mother (perhaps he was an equivalent of Glint in a bygone era of the past). Of course there are other implications.

    I'm saying it's a wide guess because there's literally nothing to point in the direction of the deep sea dragon. Doesn't mean that won't be the case, just that there's nothing to really imply the connection - or any connection to the deep sea dragon.

    There's actually nothing foreboding or foreshadowing in the end of this episode. Outside our external knowledge of knowing there's more Elder Dragons and other threats out there, much like the ending of the personal story with Zhaitan, this episode is a full out closure on the story of Aurene that began with Season 2 and that of Kralkatorrik which started (indirectly) with Season 3.

    This time, there was no "tiny snippet after", similar to how Avengers: Endgame ends without a snippet after the credits or allusion to a future plot (some folks think the anvil pounding is a hint, but it was confirmed to be a salute/tribute to Iron Man's end to the MCU).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • SweetPotato.7456SweetPotato.7456 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    According to you。

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    So.. can someone help me make some sense of the ending?

    There are two major things that are just completely confusing me

    Firstly, The way Kralkatorrik talks. As if he's redeeming himself? Or wanting to be 'a good parent'?
    He wanted to be defeated, and reluinqished? I don't quite get was happening. And now those facets of Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar are in Aurene?
    So.. that means she's gonna be in torment, now?
    and Secondly Aurene wants to show us what lies ahead.. and flies of?
    what lies ahead? what was the point of that? Don't make such an explanative statement.. and just fly off.

    Kralkatorrik was unbalanced and conflicted and the magics he had consumed only caused further conflict and pain within him.
    He essentially became a plague driven by a relentless need to consume everything under the promise that it would finally end.

    In all honesty I am not that keen on the idea that Kralkatorrik wasn't inherently bad considering that long before he consumed the powers of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Balthazar he was still a monsterous being of death and destruction.
    Giving him some redeeming qualities felt a little forced but I can accept it even though in my mind he always was a malicious, cruel and evil monster.. redeeming qualities or not I felt nothing for him when I ripped his life away from him, he deserved a far worse death and I only regret that his final moments were not cowering in fear and pain.
    A disappointing end to an otherwise magnificent and monstrous antagonist.. and one that was definitely wasted as living world content despite how well done it was.

    As for Aurine Kralktatorrik mentions during the final battle that while He and Aurine are the same the magic she possesses (including that of Balthazar, Joko and the fallen Elder Dragons) are not in conflict within her like they were in him.. This seems to suggest that after inheriting Kralkatorriks magic Aurine is able to.. I guess regulate it harmoniously is probably the right phrase to use there, which is what Kralkatorrik was unable to do thus driving his murderous rampage.
    While we don't know the origins of Kralkatorrik we do know the origins of Aurine and we know she was born after her egg absorbed a significant amount of magic from Mordremoth and possibly Zhaitan too if not from his death then at least a part of what Mordremoth possessed when he died.
    With that in mind I would assume that while Aurine is decendent from the Crystal Dragon line she also has some affinity for the Magic of Mordremoth and Zhaitan, at least enough to understand it and regulate it.
    She was also very young when some of Balthazars magic was infused into her as well so what happened at the end of PoF could be the reason why she's able to harness all the power she no doubt possesses now.
    This very likely makes Aurine as a fully fledged Elder Dragon which she now is.. by far the most powerful being on Tyria.
    But I would question that adding any more power into that epic dragon combo would likely not be a good idea.

    All in all, they were amazing instances, the flying combat, the new area, everything was visually stunning.
    But my major gripes were how cheesy her revival were (I mean, people were speculating about Joko, but a lot of us thought "anet would never do that, it's too cheap"), and how confusing the ending was. That was (in my opinion) nothing cohesive about kralkattorik's defeat,
    or aurene's conversation at the end.. it's as if everything ended halfway a conversation or something

    Her revival is by far the biggest issue with this patch for me.
    I was firmly against the fan theory of Joko magic and I am very disappointed that that's the road Anet took with her revival.. I'm sorry but that is just very lazy writing and Anet has now backed themselves into a major plot hole with this.
    Liches are already a controversial lore subject in Guildwars because what few there are in the franchise lore have severe inconcistencies connecting them together as an enemy type, including what the hell a Lich even is in Tyria and how they become what they are.

    Even focusing purely on the two story related Liches from Gw1 and Gw2 there is still far too little similarities between the two to class them as the same thing.
    The concept of Phylacteries in Guildwars is vague and applies to multiple item types and there is litterally no official lore sources to use to define a Lich in the Guildwars franchise.
    While there is a wiki page for the ascended ring Khilbrons Phylactery which notes that making a Phylactery is the traditional means though which a Wizard becomes a Lich.. there is no actual in game lore confirming that Vizier Khilbron became one through this method, The existence of the ring itself could be taken as proof and I do subscribe to the theory that the ring was the means of his Lichdom and that he likely learned how to create it from his Master Abaddon.
    Palawa Joko on the other hand remains a complete and utter mystery as to how he became a Lich and not just how but also what kind of Magic was invovled in turning him into one, keeping him alive and constantly reviving him when he died..

    That massive gap in Joko's lore seriously needs to be filled in now more than ever and some serious clarity needs to provided on where Joko's powers came from and how he was able to do what he could do, because the abysmally simplistic logic that Joko had special rez powers and cant die therefore Aurine now has special rez powers and can't die is by far the most embarassing cop out writing I've ever seen in the Guildwars franchise.. and I know that the people who write the story for this awesome game are exceptionally better writers than that and are more than capable of better writing.
    Hell even if Aurine didn't know how she came back i'd have taken that over LOLJokomagic!!
    Now Aurine is an all powerful Elder Dragon juiced up on 2 more elder dragons, the worlds most powerful Lich and possess the full power of a bloodstone fueled dethroned God of War.. and to top all that off.. she can't die, at all! ever! because LOLJokomagic!!

    Uhh.. that's just abysmally bad.. She's literally the invincible Superman of Guildwars now.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    So.. can someone help me make some sense of the ending?

    There are two major things that are just completely confusing me

    Firstly, The way Kralkatorrik talks. As if he's redeeming himself? Or wanting to be 'a good parent'?
    He wanted to be defeated, and reluinqished? I don't quite get was happening. And now those facets of Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar are in Aurene?
    So.. that means she's gonna be in torment, now?
    and Secondly Aurene wants to show us what lies ahead.. and flies of?
    what lies ahead? what was the point of that? Don't make such an explanative statement.. and just fly off.

    Kralkatorrik was unbalanced and conflicted and the magics he had consumed only caused further conflict and pain within him.
    He essentially became a plague driven by a relentless need to consume everything under the promise that it would finally end.

    In all honesty I am not that keen on the idea that Kralkatorrik wasn't inherently bad considering that long before he consumed the powers of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Balthazar he was still a monsterous being of death and destruction.
    Giving him some redeeming qualities felt a little forced but I can accept it even though in my mind he always was a malicious, cruel and evil monster.. redeeming qualities or not I felt nothing for him when I ripped his life away from him, he deserved a far worse death and I only regret that his final moments were not cowering in fear and pain.
    A disappointing end to an otherwise magnificent and monstrous antagonist.. and one that was definitely wasted as living world content despite how well done it was.

    As for Aurine Kralktatorrik mentions during the final battle that while He and Aurine are the same the magic she possesses (including that of Balthazar, Joko and the fallen Elder Dragons) are not in conflict within her like they were in him.. This seems to suggest that after inheriting Kralkatorriks magic Aurine is able to.. I guess regulate it harmoniously is probably the right phrase to use there, which is what Kralkatorrik was unable to do thus driving his murderous rampage.
    While we don't know the origins of Kralkatorrik we do know the origins of Aurine and we know she was born after her egg absorbed a significant amount of magic from Mordremoth and possibly Zhaitan too if not from his death then at least a part of what Mordremoth possessed when he died.
    With that in mind I would assume that while Aurine is decendent from the Crystal Dragon line she also has some affinity for the Magic of Mordremoth and Zhaitan, at least enough to understand it and regulate it.
    She was also very young when some of Balthazars magic was infused into her as well so what happened at the end of PoF could be the reason why she's able to harness all the power she no doubt possesses now.
    This very likely makes Aurine as a fully fledged Elder Dragon which she now is.. by far the most powerful being on Tyria.
    But I would question that adding any more power into that epic dragon combo would likely not be a good idea.

    All in all, they were amazing instances, the flying combat, the new area, everything was visually stunning.
    But my major gripes were how cheesy her revival were (I mean, people were speculating about Joko, but a lot of us thought "anet would never do that, it's too cheap"), and how confusing the ending was. That was (in my opinion) nothing cohesive about kralkattorik's defeat,
    or aurene's conversation at the end.. it's as if everything ended halfway a conversation or something

    Her revival is by far the biggest issue with this patch for me.
    I was firmly against the fan theory of Joko magic and I am very disappointed that that's the road Anet took with her revival.. I'm sorry but that is just very lazy writing and Anet has now backed themselves into a major plot hole with this.
    Liches are already a controversial lore subject in Guildwars because what few there are in the franchise lore have severe inconcistencies connecting them together as an enemy type, including what the hell a Lich even is in Tyria and how they become what they are.

    Even focusing purely on the two story related Liches from Gw1 and Gw2 there is still far too little similarities between the two to class them as the same thing.
    The concept of Phylacteries in Guildwars is vague and applies to multiple item types and there is litterally no official lore sources to use to define a Lich in the Guildwars franchise.
    While there is a wiki page for the ascended ring Khilbrons Phylactery which notes that making a Phylactery is the traditional means though which a Wizard becomes a Lich.. there is no actual in game lore confirming that Vizier Khilbron became one through this method, The existence of the ring itself could be taken as proof and I do subscribe to the theory that the ring was the means of his Lichdom and that he likely learned how to create it from his Master Abaddon.
    Palawa Joko on the other hand remains a complete and utter mystery as to how he became a Lich and not just how but also what kind of Magic was invovled in turning him into one, keeping him alive and constantly reviving him when he died..

    That massive gap in Joko's lore seriously needs to be filled in now more than ever and some serious clarity needs to provided on where Joko's powers came from and how he was able to do what he could do, because the abysmally simplistic logic that Joko had special rez powers and cant die therefore Aurine now has special rez powers and can't die is by far the most embarassing cop out writing I've ever seen in the Guildwars franchise.. and I know that the people who write the story for this awesome game are exceptionally better writers than that and are more than capable of better writing.
    Hell even if Aurine didn't know how she came back i'd have taken that over LOLJokomagic!!
    Now Aurine is an all powerful Elder Dragon juiced up on 2 more elder dragons, the worlds most powerful Lich and possess the full power of a bloodstone fueled dethroned God of War.. and to top all that off.. she can't die, at all! ever! because LOLJokomagic!!

    Uhh.. that's just abysmally bad.. She's literally the invincible Superman of Guildwars now.

    Regarding the point that Kralkatorrik wasn't inherently bad: what we see in the last few minutes of the last instance is a mere glimpse of something Kralkatorrik was several eons ago. During the last dragon awakening at the very least and also during all of Glint's life he was already a tormented being only. He was not inside of his own Heart waiting for us to arrive and talk to us but rather, this personality has only resurfaced because of the severe punishment inflicted to his external body and also the instability of introducing so much magic into himself. The being that talks to us has only appeared just then and was not present in any other moment, as far as I could interpret that scene. So, it is only natural that everyone recognizes him as a being of pure evil, because that's what he was for the entirety of the lives of basically everyone who is alive and even previous generations of everyone who is alive right now. But that does not mean he could not have originally been very different, due to the timescales involved.

    As for it being wasted on Living World content, what makes you think Living World is not the main content now? They have not announced even if there was going to be another expansion, they did not talk about there having a separate team developing it, and as of the latest news, they don't even have enough people to split their development like that. The fact that they're going straight into season 5 means they might start testing the release of "expansion content" such as elite specs, during the season. For what it's worth I think this is a bold move since an expansion brings in new players in a way which episodic content doesn't, but their ramping up of marketing might be foreshadowing such an attempt anyway.

    I mostly agree with the other points; I'm not excited with the prospect of Aurene becoming the One Above All of Tyria. We should find more replacements for the other Elder Dragons and not just hope she can keep soaking it up (let alone delivering the realization of that hope through the writing). Using Joko's magic as a device renders the whole thing about the Mad King's book useless again; we yet again require an explanation on Joko's actual origins as a Lich, and how is his magic so much more special that his immortality can resist even an Elder Dragon's assault (but not getting eaten, so...yeah, 'what is Joko' is the new Malyck tree?).

    The only caveat I'd add is that, it's not really implied that it was Mordremoth's, Zhaitan's or even divine magic from Balthazar that allows Aurene to be the first Elder Dragon with the gift of harmonizing all kinds of magic; It is rather very much apparent through the last seasons that our bond to her is what matters, a point which is also conveyed through Caithe being connected to Aurene's magic rather than corrupted by it. I don't like when writers do this, mind you, but I believe this is just another power of love™ situation, and in order for the PC to be the most relevant thing in the world (step aside Kormir! step aside Trahearne!), they made us a necessary element in the balance of the All by showing Aurene what it's like to truly bond to others even if they are not your proper kin (see, there's even a message of diversity there, there's no way this is not what they're doing lol).

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maxwelgm.4315 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Ayakaru.6583 said:
    So.. can someone help me make some sense of the ending?

    There are two major things that are just completely confusing me

    Firstly, The way Kralkatorrik talks. As if he's redeeming himself? Or wanting to be 'a good parent'?
    He wanted to be defeated, and reluinqished? I don't quite get was happening. And now those facets of Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar are in Aurene?
    So.. that means she's gonna be in torment, now?
    and Secondly Aurene wants to show us what lies ahead.. and flies of?
    what lies ahead? what was the point of that? Don't make such an explanative statement.. and just fly off.

    Kralkatorrik was unbalanced and conflicted and the magics he had consumed only caused further conflict and pain within him.
    He essentially became a plague driven by a relentless need to consume everything under the promise that it would finally end.

    In all honesty I am not that keen on the idea that Kralkatorrik wasn't inherently bad considering that long before he consumed the powers of Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Balthazar he was still a monsterous being of death and destruction.
    Giving him some redeeming qualities felt a little forced but I can accept it even though in my mind he always was a malicious, cruel and evil monster.. redeeming qualities or not I felt nothing for him when I ripped his life away from him, he deserved a far worse death and I only regret that his final moments were not cowering in fear and pain.
    A disappointing end to an otherwise magnificent and monstrous antagonist.. and one that was definitely wasted as living world content despite how well done it was.

    As for Aurine Kralktatorrik mentions during the final battle that while He and Aurine are the same the magic she possesses (including that of Balthazar, Joko and the fallen Elder Dragons) are not in conflict within her like they were in him.. This seems to suggest that after inheriting Kralkatorriks magic Aurine is able to.. I guess regulate it harmoniously is probably the right phrase to use there, which is what Kralkatorrik was unable to do thus driving his murderous rampage.
    While we don't know the origins of Kralkatorrik we do know the origins of Aurine and we know she was born after her egg absorbed a significant amount of magic from Mordremoth and possibly Zhaitan too if not from his death then at least a part of what Mordremoth possessed when he died.
    With that in mind I would assume that while Aurine is decendent from the Crystal Dragon line she also has some affinity for the Magic of Mordremoth and Zhaitan, at least enough to understand it and regulate it.
    She was also very young when some of Balthazars magic was infused into her as well so what happened at the end of PoF could be the reason why she's able to harness all the power she no doubt possesses now.
    This very likely makes Aurine as a fully fledged Elder Dragon which she now is.. by far the most powerful being on Tyria.
    But I would question that adding any more power into that epic dragon combo would likely not be a good idea.

    All in all, they were amazing instances, the flying combat, the new area, everything was visually stunning.
    But my major gripes were how cheesy her revival were (I mean, people were speculating about Joko, but a lot of us thought "anet would never do that, it's too cheap"), and how confusing the ending was. That was (in my opinion) nothing cohesive about kralkattorik's defeat,
    or aurene's conversation at the end.. it's as if everything ended halfway a conversation or something

    Her revival is by far the biggest issue with this patch for me.
    I was firmly against the fan theory of Joko magic and I am very disappointed that that's the road Anet took with her revival.. I'm sorry but that is just very lazy writing and Anet has now backed themselves into a major plot hole with this.
    Liches are already a controversial lore subject in Guildwars because what few there are in the franchise lore have severe inconcistencies connecting them together as an enemy type, including what the hell a Lich even is in Tyria and how they become what they are.

    Even focusing purely on the two story related Liches from Gw1 and Gw2 there is still far too little similarities between the two to class them as the same thing.
    The concept of Phylacteries in Guildwars is vague and applies to multiple item types and there is litterally no official lore sources to use to define a Lich in the Guildwars franchise.
    While there is a wiki page for the ascended ring Khilbrons Phylactery which notes that making a Phylactery is the traditional means though which a Wizard becomes a Lich.. there is no actual in game lore confirming that Vizier Khilbron became one through this method, The existence of the ring itself could be taken as proof and I do subscribe to the theory that the ring was the means of his Lichdom and that he likely learned how to create it from his Master Abaddon.
    Palawa Joko on the other hand remains a complete and utter mystery as to how he became a Lich and not just how but also what kind of Magic was invovled in turning him into one, keeping him alive and constantly reviving him when he died..

    That massive gap in Joko's lore seriously needs to be filled in now more than ever and some serious clarity needs to provided on where Joko's powers came from and how he was able to do what he could do, because the abysmally simplistic logic that Joko had special rez powers and cant die therefore Aurine now has special rez powers and can't die is by far the most embarassing cop out writing I've ever seen in the Guildwars franchise.. and I know that the people who write the story for this awesome game are exceptionally better writers than that and are more than capable of better writing.
    Hell even if Aurine didn't know how she came back i'd have taken that over LOLJokomagic!!
    Now Aurine is an all powerful Elder Dragon juiced up on 2 more elder dragons, the worlds most powerful Lich and possess the full power of a bloodstone fueled dethroned God of War.. and to top all that off.. she can't die, at all! ever! because LOLJokomagic!!

    Uhh.. that's just abysmally bad.. She's literally the invincible Superman of Guildwars now.

    Regarding the point that Kralkatorrik wasn't inherently bad: what we see in the last few minutes of the last instance is a mere glimpse of something Kralkatorrik was several eons ago. During the last dragon awakening at the very least and also during all of Glint's life he was already a tormented being only. He was not inside of his own Heart waiting for us to arrive and talk to us but rather, this personality has only resurfaced because of the severe punishment inflicted to his external body and also the instability of introducing so much magic into himself. The being that talks to us has only appeared just then and was not present in any other moment, as far as I could interpret that scene. So, it is only natural that everyone recognizes him as a being of pure evil, because that's what he was for the entirety of the lives of basically everyone who is alive and even previous generations of everyone who is alive right now. But that does not mean he could not have originally been very different, due to the timescales involved.

    Yea that was more or less my point and one I wasn't too fussed on.
    After everything Kralk had done to really make us hate him I didn't like the idea that before we put him down we essentially saved him again.
    To find out he wasn't the monster we've long seen him as kinda spoiled the satisfaction of his death a little bit.
    The Torment I think has always been present within him it's just gotten more out of control since the unbalance of magic starting with the death of Zhaitan..
    This raises a ton of questions about the history of these dragons though, and I am a little concerned that this patch despite ending a story arc has left us with far more questions than before.

    As for it being wasted on Living World content, what makes you think Living World is not the main content now? They have not announced even if there was going to be another expansion, they did not talk about there having a separate team developing it, and as of the latest news, they don't even have enough people to split their development like that. The fact that they're going straight into season 5 means they might start testing the release of "expansion content" such as elite specs, during the season. For what it's worth I think this is a bold move since an expansion brings in new players in a way which episodic content doesn't, but their ramping up of marketing might be foreshadowing such an attempt anyway.

    That's my fear, I like the living world don't get me wrong but it is no substitute for a large paid expansion.
    I know a lot of people feel the same way on that as it's something i've talked about many times before, People crave the big content drops that come with expansions and there are obvious differences between the kind of content that comes with expansions and the more grindy content that comes with living world.
    Guildwars 2 needs both the living world and the paid expansions imo and I think the game will suffer if either of them are replaced entirely by the other.

    Episodic content does get tiring after a while mostly because of the waiting..
    I don't mind 2 back to back living world seasons but 3 will be stretching it too much, there's only so many years I can take waiting months for 3-4 hours of new story content before having to wait months again for another 3-4 hours.
    By the end of Season 5 I am going to be craving that big expansion experience of having several new maps, 9 new specs, some new mechanic feature and a ton of new story to play.
    Living world simply cannot replicate that experience.. and I know there are other players like myself who want to pay for that kind of content drop.
    It's our main way of supporting this game so if they stop making expansions then all we can do is waste money on the gemstore for stuff we don't really need or want.

    I mostly agree with the other points; I'm not excited with the prospect of Aurene becoming the One Above All of Tyria. We should find more replacements for the other Elder Dragons and not just hope she can keep soaking it up (let alone delivering the realization of that hope through the writing). Using Joko's magic as a device renders the whole thing about the Mad King's book useless again; we yet again require an explanation on Joko's actual origins as a Lich, and how is his magic so much more special that his immortality can resist even an Elder Dragon's assault (but not getting eaten, so...yeah, 'what is Joko' is the new Malyck tree?).

    I'm glad you agree on the Joko origins.. that's a big plot hole they've left open there and of course that would mean finally getting some clarity on Lichdom in the Guildwars franchise as that alone is a pretty big enigma as well.
    I have a feeling we might not see Aurine again for a little while though, Season 5 looks to be opening with a fresh start sort of perspective now that everything in Elona has more or less been finished up.
    I'm hoping our next stop is Cantha personally but right now anything could happen since the 3 remaining dragons are MIA or asleep and there is no major known threat going on right now.
    If I had to guess I'd say we might start season 5 by checking in on the Pale Tree and seeing how her recovery is coming along and also how the Sylvari react to Caithe's new form, or we may open with a big party in LA celebrating the death of Kralkatorrik who is by far the most powerful Dragon we've taken down so far.
    I dunno, guess we'll find out whenever the season starts :)

    The only caveat I'd add is that, it's not really implied that it was Mordremoth's, Zhaitan's or even divine magic from Balthazar that allows Aurene to be the first Elder Dragon with the gift of harmonizing all kinds of magic; It is rather very much apparent through the last seasons that our bond to her is what matters, a point which is also conveyed through Caithe being connected to Aurene's magic rather than corrupted by it. I don't like when writers do this, mind you, but I believe this is just another power of love™ situation, and in order for the PC to be the most relevant thing in the world (step aside Kormir! step aside Trahearne!), they made us a necessary element in the balance of the All by showing Aurene what it's like to truly bond to others even if they are not your proper kin (see, there's even a message of diversity there, there's no way this is not what they're doing lol).

    You could be right, although I think her bond was more about compassion for lesser races and to grow her personality into a benevolent being.
    I could be wrong about the magic but I think at least some part Aurine being born with the magics of 3 Elder Dragons does play a small part in it, and whatever she absorbed from Balthzar was significant enough to put on a Ohhhh Ahhhhh display so I still feel that was important even if there hasn't been any clear answers on what the hell happened lol

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    Given the environmental and global warming subtext of the Elder Dragons metaplot, should we perhaps think of the torment that drives the Elder Dragons evil/crazy/tormented to possibly being akin to magical pollution and misuse? Mortals cause the magical imbalance, and the Elder Dragons are a manifestation of both the environmental response and the pollution itself?

    In many respects, this makes the Elder Dragons somewhat comparable to the atomic bomb metatext of Godzilla.

  • Annaveil.5201Annaveil.5201 Member ✭✭

    Bubbles will be Kralkatorrik's mother. Aurene will go to her while we deal with some other lesser issue that points us to Cantha. Then Aurene will show up later either with word that her great grandmother is going to surface soon or she's helping her help us seal the chaotic magics of Tyria back into a stable state.

    I put 10g and a [Stick of Butter] down as my bet.

    Annaveil Neveris | "Perhaps all one can do is hope to regret the right things."