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can we admit that raids have gotten a little too toxic?


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@SoulPrime.8029 said:my post about things being toxic, got toxic. this is ironic

If the bar for something being toxic is some one disagreeing, then yes.

All I see is people with different opinions (as well as experiences and some unfortunate omissions as well as made up facts).

The irony is that putting disagreements in the same pool as toxicity both devalues the actual value of discourse as well as oversensationalizes toxicity.

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this is GUILDwars, so find Guild and close the question. For example in our non Elgish speaking guild we have 3 diferent static group for raids. If you know language I am sure you can find very nice guild wiht inner cont raid parties, and have fun.If you join in random player - you should have randomized result.

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The real irony is the fact that people seem to assume negative behaviour of a certain kind can't be done by any member of their own group out of principal simply because they supposedly experience said behaviour more often than members of other groups. To then proceide to instantly pull cards on people as soon as they dare to disagree. You know, the "S-", "R-", "H-" and in this case the "T-card". An act which displays far more prejudice against these certain groups they are trying to blame.

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@SoulPrime.8029 said:my post about things being toxic, got toxic. this is ironic

Have you ever tried to just clear fractals and somebody without experience joined? You will take far longer. Why is that okay, but the moment somebody wants this in raids it is toxic? Makes no sense. Almost as if people just throw that term around.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"sokeenoppa.5384" said:During the dungeon meta LFG was full of "P1 10k AP zerk warrior link Gear" posts.

and that was hard to achieve? only warriors were wanted? lol I could find groups with my necro.

Well, of course you found groups as necro and rangers but I was here and what you found most were threads with the following structure: "Why I'm being kicked from dungeon groups as necro/ranger/class with bad build/no knowledge/no 5k AP"? and so on.There were daily to weekly posts with the same complaints over and over again. And us, the ones who were running many dungeons in a daily routine barely had problems with appropriate geared players + knowing the paths but if you got those special snowflakes into your groups the overall performance decreased to minus degree level a.k.a. pulling every trash mob of the instance, shooting enemies out of cleave (say hi to bearbows), slowing down progress due to bringing 0 dps, 0 utility, running around like chicken and watching loot wandering into the inventory with a pace of a snail.

There's one thing you and every other player can do. I gave that advice years ago: Respect the lfgs. If you do so you're rarely getting into trouble. There's no suitable lfg? Make your own. Simple as it is.

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@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:lol ok. ppl want to believe dungeon clears were somehow op leet status when casual groups did fine. even if 3/5 ppl were good you could still pull it off ok. xp is truly subjective.

"Pull it off" is a different thing than getting through good and far away from a perfect pug run with no wipe, decent phasings, smooth skippings. Not to speak from portals if you had a decent mesmer knowing some shortcuts.You can't compare stuff if you haven't run dungeons on a daily basis.

I did Arah full runs every day (without exploiting) and there was a huge difference if you had 3 or 5 good players. Especially when non-decent players were "keeping" the NPCs. You were lucky when those players died and the NPC switched follower and unlucky when they died in a mob group and won't respawn next to the group on a waypoint. To run Arah P4 without 5 decent players was a nightmare before HoT. I literally had to leave groups I joined at Simin (Priestess of Dwayna) because they had 0 chance to overcome the encounter or I remembered countless tries of explanation at ghosts on Priest of Grenth. People neither understood to stand in the circles nor hitting the boss asap when it jumps to your mark. I was faster duoing with a friend on so many occasions. Last but not least Lupicus - I can't also count the amount of situations where I was last man standing entering phase 2 at 75% and soloed the boss after granting 2-3 tries to the group and suiciding myself so they can restart & experience the fight more than once.In addition there were several paths you couldn't run with non-zerker pugs in your daily routine like for example CM P2, CoF P3, SE P2 and more - not - possible! Even AC P2 was a pain in the axx when trying to play Ghostbusters and ppl shot skill 2 at the boss and then trying to kill all mates.

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This again... I quited the game for a while until a solution came out, if you want a legy armor but can't do raids you could go for pvp o wvw, if you dislike those armors and really want the raid one, start chopping wood to buy the raids I can't do with normal people.

That's what I did , or you could force your friends to "git gud" using a whip.

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Seems this theme never get old... Easiest way to avoid all of this is to run in a static or guild group. Raids are not that difficult. I'm part of an non ts guild and we raid sucessfull. We are so casual that we even only use the sc builds as rough guideline and take all classes and nearly all kind of more or less effective builds with us. Sometimes we even got an MM Necro or an good old Bearbow in our groups. We might not be the fastest on clearing this contend but the fun is with us.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:snips

dood, just stop. ive done plenty of perfect or near perfect pug runs. way to use arah, the one and only exception lol.

Arah was the only exception? CM with a good group took like 15min. An average pug group needed that for p3 alone. The average speedrun group needed like 1/3 of the time of what you would call a perfect pug run probably.People did full dungeon tours back then and it's i difference if you need the whole day or just 2h for that. Especially if players don't have that much time.Different kind of people exist. Killing a boss is not always enough for some players. Maybe they enjoy killing it fast or with a strange composition. Kicking an engi when the lfg asked for 10 necros isn't toxic, it's what the people want to do. Yes you can kill a boss with 2-3 healers and 10k dps average but thats not what some players want from raids. Don't join groups that ask for 500+ li and 150+kp if you don't want to tryhard, it's that simple.I've lots of LI and i've actually never seen anyone getting kicked for a bit too low dps or not meta classes. They get kicked for joining on something like warrior when the lfg asked for a druid. Players get kicked for dps if they have chrono level dps which actually happens quite often. Not even sure how they do it because autoattack should already deal double of that.I play reaper regularly in raids and i've never been kicked for playing reaper and it is one of the most hated specs. Well just for eating the "wrong" shroom at sloth which was actually the right one but thats another 50li pug story.

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I'm not so sure. If anything they're a bleeding community and really relaxing their standards. If you show just the slightest interest in improving yourself, someone will tell you what to do and train with you. You might even find a core group of players to play with.

Despite the meme, no ones expecting perfect SnowCrows numbers. People just don't want you to be dead weight entirely.

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I don't raid, but as a PVE commander I've noticed an increase in toxicity lately. I quit hosting Maw of Torment at night because everybody who'd join up was the terrible triad of entitled, mean, and dumb. They would complain that I gave them directions, refuse to follow directions, then get mad at me for being a "bad commander" when the event inevitably fails due to not following my directions. This isn't just one guy on one night, either. It is everybody, every night. After about 5 consecutive nights of this happening (different players, same roles), I just quit bothering.

The core PoF maps are currently populated by new players. They use the instant 80 boost and immediately go to where the brand new expansion pack takes them. This... paints a scary picture to the current direction of the player base. If everyone coming into the has this attitude, then it does not bode well for the future of the game.

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@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I don't raid, but as a PVE commander I've noticed an increase in toxicity lately. I quit hosting Maw of Torment at night because everybody who'd join up was the terrible triad of entitled, mean, and dumb. They would complain that I gave them directions, refuse to follow directions, then get mad at me for being a "bad commander" when the event inevitably fails due to not following my directions. This isn't just one guy on one night, either. It is everybody, every night. After about 5 consecutive nights of this happening (different players, same roles), I just quit bothering.

The core PoF maps are currently populated by new players. They use the instant 80 boost and immediately go to where the brand new expansion pack takes them. This... paints a scary picture to the current direction of the player base. If everyone coming into the has this attitude, then it does not bode well for the future of the game.

Looks like you got a taste what raiding commanders have to deal with mate sorry to hear that.

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@sigur.9453 said:

@SoulPrime.8029 said:so i sent a couple weeks farming and crafting a BS warr. made a few other classes along the way. after learning the mechanics and even leading some training raids myself i actually had some fun. so after all that people would finally let me join groups. but now just forming a group is an all day affair. id join a group, we would sit around for an hour till we had 10 ppl. we make one attempt on the boss. someone dies the entire group leaves.

Yes, PUG raiding can be annoying. What exactly prevents you from joining a guild or a semi static or a discord server? Raids were not designed to be PUGed, the fact that they can be already speaks to their ease.

THIS!

How can a community be so stubborn and ignore this fact.Raids where never designed for pugging. You also miss out the most fun part of that mode, learning a boss as a group (preferable with people you like = guild/static).But somehow PPL that join PUG raids for the loot get annoyed by PPL who join PUG raids for the loot, who would have thought.

Please educate me here, I have two guilds that do raiding, the one is still training and learning w1-4 and the other guild has a static group and only makes a second group for training if they have enough people and sadly they stop raidining once the static is done with the newest wing. I have never found out how to get a training raid group for w5-6 despite asking a few times and even making a post on the forum. So how do I get into this. I even thought that on the day after the release of w6 I would find training groups but most of the groups already asked for kp or knowledge of the mechanics and had no interest in training people.

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