[Spoilers] Terrible story - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

[Spoilers] Terrible story

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  • My complaint is it was so kitten short. Less than 3 hours, and that with me poking about the map doing events too. We could have had a lot of potential for struggling on without Aurene for a bit, then end the episode as it went. This was just... sad for 2 minutes maybe, then tada! Disney! and a very short Disney at that. I was disappointed, because the rest of Season 4 was just amazing.

  • McPero.3287McPero.3287 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zychuu.7294 said:

    @McPero.3287 said:
    When I saw Aurene get resurected in first instance I just Alt+F4 the game. If you are gonna bring her back at least don't do it immediately, what was the point of her dying if she is instantly back. Terrible story telling. You kill a quality villain in the first fight (Joko) and bring back a mute dragon (which yes speaks now) that had no character to it but was just liked by people because it looked cute and shinned. Not sure if I'll even play this episode now maybe if Taimi dies I will. Does she?

    Unfortunately (for you) she does not

    My main problem is that they denied Zojja her part in the god kitten fight with THE Kralkatorrik again. kitten? Nobody remembers original Destiny Edge and how important they were for the story and how that story resolved around fighting Kralkatorrik? Her absence is stupid at this point.

    Thanks for the info, took a while.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    Kralkatorik was afraid that he would be killed so he fought back, in the process the commander slays 2 dragons so he absorbs their torment, which made him angrier so balthazar came and said he wanted to kill Kralkatorik to prove why he shouldn't have been imprisoned in the mists, and instead the commander kills balthazar and Kralkatorik absorbs balthazars torment because he was imbued with the energy of primordus and jormag. Then the commander goes with Aurene to kill off the torment that was haunting Kralkatorik but because he was so badly wounded he just wanted to end the suffering so you and Aurene end the suffering but at the cost of Kralkatorik's CLEAN energy being absorbed by Aurene.

    No plot holes here.

    Let me just cover three plotholes present in what you mentioned (there are a ton more in things you didn't mention, by the way).
    1. "Kralkatorik was afraid that he would be killed"
    oh, really? in this very story he states clearly that no elder dragon is afraid of death and that was never his motivation for acting (although that is pretty much inconsistent with what we've heard before). That one is minor, though, it's the two next ones that are massive.
    2. what clean energy? there's no "torment" energy (unless we're talking Abaddon, and as far as we know he wasn't involved). It was stated that he was in torment because he held too much power. Not because it was some wrong kind of power. It's not like the power was somehow inimical to him, but there was so much of it it was tearing him apart. Aurene now holds even more (as she added his power to her), and yet she's perfectly fine.
    3. "Clean" energy or not, it moving from Kralky to Aurene didn't address the unbalance that threatens to destroy the world. It's been already explained that the 6 sources of power must be in balance, or the world goes boom. Now we not only have only 4 sources, but those 4 sources are not equal in power. Bubbles has his normal share of Zhaitan and Mordy's powers, Jormag and Primordius are weakened, with part of their power siphoned off to Kralky and then to Aurene, and Aurene has Kralky's normal power, his share of Zhaitan and Mordy's powers, her share of Mordy's powers (notice how the egg also absorbed some), part of Jormag and Primordius powers (some via Kralkatorrik, some siphoned off Balthasar directly), Joko's powers (not so insignificant, if it can let Aurene do things elder dragons can't), and all the stuff Kralky's eaten from the mists.
    And yet somehow, this all is in perfect balance now? Really?
    HOW?

    It seems to me we are seeing a clear case of Draco Ex Machina. With no explanation whatsoever.

    I think you make some excellent points. Number 3 I'd encourage you to add to the official questions thread for their Guild Chat, because I'd like to know more about that. I think they've been incredibly wishy washy with this whole "balance" "The All" and all the other metaphysical nonsense they chose to needlessly interject to a story that worked so much better without it. I'm pretty certain it doesn't hold up well to scrutiny in terms of consistency

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twyn.7320 said:
    It'd be nice if people could look at a story [that I personally disliked but that's beside the point] and not give it a free pass of mediocrity 'because it's a game/MMO'. If a story's average, a story's average. Copping out a reason that it's a game doesn't excuse the fact that a story is bad, average, good or anywhere in-between. Gaming is just another form of media, we wouldn't do the same for TV, radio, movies etc. It'd be like saying:

    'Well, The Last Airbender movie doesn't need a good story, because it's just a movie and you just need to watch a movie because of how pretty it looks.'

    And ironically, I think that's where my gripe with GW2 comes in. The maps look gorgeous, the sound design is 11/10, the voice acting is a bit hit and miss from time to time but generally okay. The music has really improved in recent years, actually evoking sympathy for a change.

    But IMO, the writing is below average, full of plot-holes and rushed. Everything gets tied up in a nice bow, with nothing left to be explored and no lasting consequences. The only reason why people are invested in what comes next is that we've been told that Season 5 is coming shortly, outside of the game itself. There's very little in this Episode that actually sets up a long-lasting narrative.

    Ultimately, I feel the need to speak to those who disagree with my stance. People aren't looking for Game of Thrones in a Guild Wars 2 re-skin when it comes to character deaths. However, people are looking for lasting consequences that build up to something that we have a role in. With Aurene's death in E5, it created the connection between us and Kralkatorrik. People wanted to end him, because of the absence of Aurene. Sometimes, it's best to leave people's emotions to drive the story, rather than bringing something back to life for the sake of fan feedback and potential outrage mitigation. If people are feeling sorrow and grief for a character's death, that's brilliant. It's exactly what you want as a story-teller. That allows a player to push onwards and actually connect with this 'force of nature' that serves as the antagonist.

    If the root connection of our emotion is brought back to us, with no lasting consequences or hardships, the link breaks down between the protagonist and the antagonist. This is why a portion of the player-base hate the resurrection of Aurene. It reduced Kralkatorrik's threat to Dragon's Watch and the world of Tyria to nothing and broke down our connection with him as an antagonist. If Aurene's return was necessary, we needed to experience the devastation of Kralkatorrik on Tyria before she entered the story again. I've seen some amazing ideas above, regarding the first, two chapters and how we could've brought Aurene back to life ourselves, through a trial of fire.

    For instance, imagine if the initial chapters involved us travelling around the major cities of the core world, and discussing with the world's leaders about the threat of Kralkatorrik. We could discover that portions of existing zones have been branded, causing Kralkatorrik's minions to pillage the world's settlements at an increased rate. I'm aware that this would've been a financial challenge, but something along these lines would've been beneficial before Aurene's resurrection, in my opinion.

    To prevent myself from rambling on and on about the storyline, I just need to conclude with a final statement:

    People are allowed to have a negative opinion. If they feel that their time has been wasted, then they're allowed to get heated and vent. That's what the forums are designed for. If there's a noticeable surge in negative feedback, it proves that something has gone wrong with a recent addition. Just because you disagree with them, it doesn't mean that there isn't an issue with delivery. The recent example is Aurene's resurrection, and from what I've personally seen, the community's split in half. There's an issue here, and ignoring it is silly.

    The way that I see it: If you dislike the Skyscale Acquisition and have complained about it, don't tell others that complaining about Aurene's resurrection is 'casual' or 'wrong'. Debate the extent of the problems, and bring alternative solutions. Don't just shut someone down because you disagree with them.

    Outstanding post

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Twyn.7320Twyn.7320 Member ✭✭✭

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Twyn.7320 said:
    It'd be nice if people could look at a story [that I personally disliked but that's beside the point] and not give it a free pass of mediocrity 'because it's a game/MMO'. If a story's average, a story's average. Copping out a reason that it's a game doesn't excuse the fact that a story is bad, average, good or anywhere in-between. Gaming is just another form of media, we wouldn't do the same for TV, radio, movies etc. It'd be like saying:

    'Well, The Last Airbender movie doesn't need a good story, because it's just a movie and you just need to watch a movie because of how pretty it looks.'

    And ironically, I think that's where my gripe with GW2 comes in. The maps look gorgeous, the sound design is 11/10, the voice acting is a bit hit and miss from time to time but generally okay. The music has really improved in recent years, actually evoking sympathy for a change.

    But IMO, the writing is below average, full of plot-holes and rushed. Everything gets tied up in a nice bow, with nothing left to be explored and no lasting consequences. The only reason why people are invested in what comes next is that we've been told that Season 5 is coming shortly, outside of the game itself. There's very little in this Episode that actually sets up a long-lasting narrative.

    Ultimately, I feel the need to speak to those who disagree with my stance. People aren't looking for Game of Thrones in a Guild Wars 2 re-skin when it comes to character deaths. However, people are looking for lasting consequences that build up to something that we have a role in. With Aurene's death in E5, it created the connection between us and Kralkatorrik. People wanted to end him, because of the absence of Aurene. Sometimes, it's best to leave people's emotions to drive the story, rather than bringing something back to life for the sake of fan feedback and potential outrage mitigation. If people are feeling sorrow and grief for a character's death, that's brilliant. It's exactly what you want as a story-teller. That allows a player to push onwards and actually connect with this 'force of nature' that serves as the antagonist.

    If the root connection of our emotion is brought back to us, with no lasting consequences or hardships, the link breaks down between the protagonist and the antagonist. This is why a portion of the player-base hate the resurrection of Aurene. It reduced Kralkatorrik's threat to Dragon's Watch and the world of Tyria to nothing and broke down our connection with him as an antagonist. If Aurene's return was necessary, we needed to experience the devastation of Kralkatorrik on Tyria before she entered the story again. I've seen some amazing ideas above, regarding the first, two chapters and how we could've brought Aurene back to life ourselves, through a trial of fire.

    For instance, imagine if the initial chapters involved us travelling around the major cities of the core world, and discussing with the world's leaders about the threat of Kralkatorrik. We could discover that portions of existing zones have been branded, causing Kralkatorrik's minions to pillage the world's settlements at an increased rate. I'm aware that this would've been a financial challenge, but something along these lines would've been beneficial before Aurene's resurrection, in my opinion.

    To prevent myself from rambling on and on about the storyline, I just need to conclude with a final statement:

    People are allowed to have a negative opinion. If they feel that their time has been wasted, then they're allowed to get heated and vent. That's what the forums are designed for. If there's a noticeable surge in negative feedback, it proves that something has gone wrong with a recent addition. Just because you disagree with them, it doesn't mean that there isn't an issue with delivery. The recent example is Aurene's resurrection, and from what I've personally seen, the community's split in half. There's an issue here, and ignoring it is silly.

    The way that I see it: If you dislike the Skyscale Acquisition and have complained about it, don't tell others that complaining about Aurene's resurrection is 'casual' or 'wrong'. Debate the extent of the problems, and bring alternative solutions. Don't just shut someone down because you disagree with them.

    Outstanding post

    Thank you! I might condense this down for the upcoming Dev Feedback thing, just to explain one of the angles that people may have with the Aurene moment and the general structure of the narrative! Also, I suppose that my writing background shows ;)

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm not about to sit here and justify everything and write essays about why the story is sound. If you hate the story that much just log in, play the first part of the story next time to get into the next map and go about your day. Problem solved.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    The commander was resurrected instantly and nobody said anything. Trahearne was boring and nobody said anything. Scarlett and the entirety of living story season 2 was both cringey and boring and nobody said anything until Lions Arch was destroyed.

    For a start, the commander didn't resurrect instantly. We actually had to play the game to get that to happen unlike Aurene where we stood there and literally just watched an instanced dungeon that could have just been cutscene... We didn't fight, heck we didn't even have to do anything like collecting anything (something we actually did when Commander dies).

    And both Trahearne and Scarlet had their fair share of people who disliked them. Scarlet moreso than Trahearne from what I remember.

    But Aurene gets resurrected and people alt+f4? You have to understand that Aurene is like the Guilds Child, it's different because if you actually even bothered to finish the whole story through, you'd see some foreshadowing that she will probably try to kill the ones she loves at some point.

    Aurene getting resurrected isn't the issue, it's already been established that most of us knew this. The problem is the fact that in a single instanced dungeon that lasted a couple of minutes, we get Aurene back. We did absolutely nothing during that instance. When the commander died, we did something like I said before. We watched, we collected, we chased people stealing our identity, we did collection, we killed a fat demon. That was an effort to actually come back to life, Aurene just Paleus Ex Jokona'd us.

    Also if you bothered to play the other stories, Aurene was called the scion for a specific reason, and not appreciated simply because she was cute. The story telling fits perfectly, there are no plot holes like the ones prior to season 4, and you are therefore wrong.

    The biggest plothole in Season 4 is literally beating at us right now (pun intended for those who already did story). Why is Kralkatorrik part good guy? Zhaitan and Mordremoth both showed personality that are completely centred around their own personal gain but Kralkatorrik is apparently a good guy out of nowhere? If they actually covered any of that your point would have been fine but there was next to nothing covering what Kralkatorrik, or any of the other dragons, were like aside from the fact that they were violent creatures with deadly personalities that screamed narcissism.

    I already spoke in another thread about how potential for corruption occurs on Elders but that's a speculation, ANet never covered it in their overall story and lore.

    Also Joko a quality villain? Are you serious? The guy had cheesy punchlines and there wasn't a single moment I could take him seriously as a villain.

    Except in terms of an actual villain, Joko is a quality villain. His personality might not be as serious as most villains but the way he is built is engaging. He's not just randomly killing things or causing destruction everywhere. He was meticulous, he had plans, he knew how to play the Commander against their senses. Hell he even went as far as to nearly kill Taimi in front of the Commander. Not only that, Joko actually made a legitimate statement about whether or not what we do as the Commander is indeed justifiable. He knew what the Elder Dragons were and we didn't and we just blindly killed two of them because we simply saw them as destructive creatures. Joko literally covered a lot of stuff for being a guy with cheesy punchlines.

    Their was reason to believe that the elderdragons didn't start out completely evil in heart and minds for example he warns what his dead would do and the dragons don't nessecarily want to destroy it just happens from their precense.
    . The power (magic) corrupt storyline was present for a long time ( the white mantle storyline was especially thick of this) and I wouldn't be surprised if they tangle with the idea that aurene gets mad to after a while.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Knuckle Joe.7408 said:
    Ifd you didn't see it coming you're dumb, dragons absorb magic, and Aurene absorbed an immortal lich's magic. You're missing out on what is probably the best living world episode anet has ever done.

    Umm, Joko wasn't immortal.

  • Squirrel.6318Squirrel.6318 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2019

    @McPero.3287 said:

    @Squirrel.6318 said:
    please don't kill taimi, she's carrying the game as it is lol

    Oh yeah carrying with her screeching voice, talking nonsense which is supposed to be technology talk.

    Way better than the cookie-cutter plastic heroes we already have. The only one aside from Taimi that seemed to have some soul is Marjory, not including her in major events was a terrible move. Maybe the voice actress didn't want to do it anymore.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2019

    @cptaylor.2670 said:
    There's no way of knowing how much time has passed in game since her death though. Sure, its' been 4 months for the players, but it may have only been a day or two for the characters or less.

    Right in the beginning, the Commander says something that he should tell the others (nations/leaders) about the Aurene's death. That means it passed the time needed to travel to Lion Arch from Thunderhead Peaks and back. Plus few hours to solve the business making him to leave Thunder Peaks.

    I estimate that between the Aurene "death" and his resurection passed around 24 hours.

    @SweetPotato.7456 said:
    Agreed.
    The writer of this part of the story, either is lazy, no imagination, or lack creativity, or they do not know the back story at all.

    There were no hints at all before this that Kralki is in fact Aurene's grandfather, unless you search the wiki. actually I knew because watched too many movies :bleep_bloop:

    It would have been a better story if we found out Kralki is the grandfather from a Glint Voice Over explaining why her vision had directed Aurene to kralki, she would never evolved into a crystal dragon without that breath from Kralki. Hence, why, saying eating Joko is the cause Aurene is alive does not explained the Crystal Dragon at all

    When Kralki realized in the last episode that he would make Aurene powerful he left having tiny bit of sentimentality, on top of the fact that he was also injured.

    Come War Eternal, we would summon all effort to lure Kralki back to Aurene's cocoon with that lay line thing he tried to consume to recuperate, and make him breath life into Aurene. He finally succumb when Aurene calles out to him with their "dragon communicator ability" "Grandfather, I am Aurene, your last and only grandchild, you have lost one already,!!!!" with big teary blinky eyes.

    This way, it also explained how, we the champion, a mere tiny creature of Tyria cannot ever kill a dragon, he has submit himself and pass on his flame to the next generation.

    Ending the story in dragon fall, the last sleeping place of the mighty Dragon Kralkatorrik!

    Yeah i like my story better :P

    LOL!! Your variant is over the most of the LS4 story!!
    For something totally unexpected you can take an alternate finale for this: "He finally succumb when Aurene calles out to him with their "dragon communicator ability" "Grandfather, I am Aurene, your last and only grandchild, you have lost one already,!!!!" with big teary blinky eyes."

    Something like - He survives the emotions of this sudden finding, but his heart was broken by remorses. So many time he ignored his grand childs. So, to make peace wihth himself he passes to Aurene all his duties as an ED and he retreats to a monastery. To pray for his soul. This keeps the door open for a "Kralky strikes back" episode.

  • Frenzify.6832Frenzify.6832 Member ✭✭

    These aren't even bad arguments, to be fair. I was going through the story actively trying to keep positive, and see the good points, because otherwise I would have found it to be a little bit of a slog. At the same time, I can't be too harsh on some of the writing, as some things were very much telegraphed. For example, I can't hate Aurene's resurrection too much, since it was a ridiculously predictable outcome from eating Joko. At the same time just because it was obvious that doesn't mean it was good. Certainly not now that she's essentially immune to death, right? Unless I understood things wrong. But there was just such a major and exaggerated victory for the commander, along with Aurene being a death immune elder dragon now, without no lingering threat to address, that I couldn't get behind it.

    Her talking was also weird, not because it was particularly bad, but because it was just pushed on us, barely processed, and then instantly treated as nothing special. Like, there were one or two comments of a couple of words when it happened, and then that was it.

    In terms of Kralk, in hindsight I'm trying to think of it with the fact that he was injured, in mind. Even still, when we were flying on Aurene in the first instance things felt far too easy, and Kralk barely did anything besides throw a few rocks at us, and swipe his tail a few times, while we were dragon breathing on him, and being a potentially lethal pest to him. Yeah, he felt big, but he didn't feel like a threat, at all. So when he went down, it didn't feel all that earned to me, but again, in hindsight, if we were to play it immediately after the previous chapter, after the fight before, where Aurene "died," and then we immediately went into the next chapter flying on her back and fighting a recently injured Kralk perhaps it would have made it feel a little less... anti-climactic. But again, how much time has passed between them? And there's also the fact that you'd have to go to Lion's Arch, just to go back again.

    I did kind of like the Hearts and Minds-esqe fight against him, but it still felt like a cop out, especially after the "fight" riding on Aurene's back, that I feel could have been expanded on and made into a final fight, and even more so since we have the Skyscale mechanics now, that they could have also probably implemented into a flying fight with Kralk. I get that we got redemption for him (probably too much and too ham-fisted), when we went inside him, but doing the same kind of thing as Mordremoth felt a little repetitive to me, though I did enjoy it.

    The one thing I could not forgive about the story though, was the absolute lack of Zojja. At this point whatever behind the scenes kitten is going on should have just resulted in a new voice actress. But even if we wouldn't have been able to see Zojja, at the very kitten least mention her and acknowledge her existence at the death of Destiny Edge's main foe. Is she dead, Anet? Is she in a permanent coma? I don't even care what at this point, but I just find it to be a kick in the metaphorical nuts for her character that she may as well not even exist anymore. I would honestly prefer they kill her off, at this point, than string her along, complete unmentioned, while her ex-guild is swimming in development.

  • McPero.3287McPero.3287 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2019

    @Squirrel.6318 said:

    @McPero.3287 said:

    @Squirrel.6318 said:
    please don't kill taimi, she's carrying the game as it is lol

    Oh yeah carrying with her screeching voice, talking nonsense which is supposed to be technology talk.

    Way better than the cookie-cutter plastic heroes we already have. The only one aside from Taimi that seemed to have some soul is Marjory, not including her in major events was a terrible move. Maybe the voice actress didn't want to do it anymore.

    From the in-game story (not looking at text lore) most of the characthers feel just empty figures that follow the Commander whatever she/he asked them to do. In addition to that Taimi is just annoying. Original story is much better in terms of that where characters actually boss us around and have some personality (Destiny's edge being angry with each other). I love the human story where you go on a party to gather evidence to arrest some minister. And Joko was excellent, he exposed us how we might be the villain after all. Now it is just we meet a new character who is somewhat introduced, then they just become one of our sheep.

  • Tiny Doom.4380Tiny Doom.4380 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2019

    Whether people enjoy a story or not has precious little to do with whether it's "good". We could argue forever about what "good" even means, as indeed academics do for decades over stories that are vastly better-known and cuturally longer-lived than anything in GW2 will ever be. We can, and should, talk about how much or how little we enjoyed it, though. That's useful feedback.

    Personally, I thought it was poor-to-middling fare, with the opening resurrection being one of the weakest segments. I didn't think it was especially bad by the established, standards of Living World but it was significantly less enjoyable than some chapters have been, mostly because it felt very rushed indeed and because so much of the action seemed to happen off-screen.

    It's true that the idea of Aurene resurrecting via having eaten Joko was a very well-known possibility. More to the point, I never thought she was permanently dead for a very simple reason: no-one is EVER dead in GW2. The entire game runs on the concept of death being little more than a change of career. Entire populataions return as Awakened or ghosts , frequently retaining the memories and personalities they had when they were alive. Individuals return as visitations from their new existences in other realms (Eir, for example) and again talk and behave just like they did when they were living. The Player Character themselves died and got better!

    The most surprising thing about Aurene's death isn't the way she was brought back but that anyone, including the Commander and all his allies, ever doubted for a second that she would return. Their entire life-experience tells them that death is transient. Rather than moping about in forced-walk slomo the lot of them should have been having a high-level, intensive seminar on how Aurene would return and how long it would take so they could get their plan for what to do when she did.

    GW2 really isn't a setting where the death of a major character can have anythign like the impact it might in a movie or a book. Speaking of which, can we have Scarlet back now, please?

  • ChronoPinoyX.7923ChronoPinoyX.7923 Member ✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    Their was reason to believe that the elderdragons didn't start out completely evil in heart and minds for example he warns what his dead would do and the dragons don't nessecarily want to destroy it just happens from their precense.
    . The power (magic) corrupt storyline was present for a long time ( the white mantle storyline was especially thick of this) and I wouldn't be surprised if they tangle with the idea that aurene gets mad to after a while.

    That's never been covered anywhere when it comes to Elder Dragons. You don't drop a "bad guy was originally good guy" scenario without dropping any form of background work because that leaves a huge plothole. It's speculation at best, no solid history or lore to refer to, not even an in-game conversation that brings out history of what dragons were like when they first came to being.

    Plus human corruption isn't based on magic, it's based on selfish desires (basically seven deadly sins). They didn't have magic when they arrived in Tyria but the first thing they did was take lands as if it were their own without consideration for other races, magic was only a tool that further fuelled the conflict.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    You have to accept that Guild wars 2 has cartoon series writing and that is its gimmick (thats why it has so much power rangers moments like some people said and i hope we get more Ba Sing Se in the future). You can see that all big MMOs have carved some sort of niche Warcarft is a medieval fantasy comic book, FF XIV is anime and ESO is High fantasy Hollywood movie.
    You can see that before it wasn't like that from the core personal story but you can't deny it is mostly bland (it has its moments but not that many), and after the story moved to the cartoon style it fared better(even though it has some big drops in quality here and there), but at least it is cohesive enough compared to some MMOs that needed several retcons and multiple lore books to "Fix" things.

  • Calvsie.3675Calvsie.3675 Member ✭✭✭

    @McPero.3287 said:
    Well Joko should stay alive inside of Aurene in the first place so she can't really absorb his magic can she?

    /me envisions a story from the perspective of an undead joko just chilling in aurene's stomach.

    “You're no help," he told the lime. This was unfair. It was only a lime; there was nothing special about it at all. It was doing the best it could.”
    ― Neil Gaiman, Anansi Boys

  • Poormany.4507Poormany.4507 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2019

    I don't see how they could have avoided Aurene's resurrection without an even bigger Deus ex, but a big problem it causes is massively adding to the lack of significance of character death in GW2. Major likeable allies that have died are able to come back and help whenever its convenient (Glint, Eir, Snaff, and now Aurene). I highly doubt anyone will take future deaths seriously at all after Aurene's death because we know they'll be right back with us in the next episode or 2.

  • Cobrakon.3108Cobrakon.3108 Member ✭✭✭

    The Story Wasnt bad, but it was lite. I wished there was more explanation about where We landed in Tyria and why the Skyscales formed. It was all kinda just breezed over with little explanation. Another thing with default Sound settings it was nearly impossible to here Kraulk talk at the end.

  • Ayalet.4970Ayalet.4970 Member ✭✭

    Well... I loved it <3 . Yes, It was predictable that Aurene might of come back from logical reasons of her eating certain magic that made the resurrection happen, and yet she needed help for her to come back. In the end, I was really satisfied how everything was build up story wise into making this happen. The execution was awesome in my opinion my only complaint about the story is that Canach even though he was very much around into this evenst and such he barely or more like nothing to say or do in this episode compared to Logan xD. Im still confused about how the new map came to be. How did that happen and how people in there flying ships where there before us xDD. Questions ~

    ☆ Fear, not this night. You will not go astray. Though Shadows fall still the stars find their way. ☆

  • coso.9173coso.9173 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't know why people hate in the instant resurrection. It's a cliffhanger method used on many many things, and has been for years. It's a pretty common trope.
    Also remember that they can change or alter the Lore to accommodate to what they need, like any writer does in any other media too. Including series, comics and movies.

  • finkle.9513finkle.9513 Member ✭✭✭

    I found the story too short, and seemed spanned out with the same old mechanics (go to 3 locations and press f) so uninspiring, I always hope for a new view, something fresh... It never happens
    The art, map is again as always top level, the achievements seem a little on the easy side, would rather some take time.. most are achieved from first play through..Sound acting is great, and cinematics also great..meta is fun, the map restart not so much when people are a inch from the last scale/ egg and boom a white line and all maps back at base...Just feel like logging off.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭

    I loved the story.

    I can understand why it was short, though. Think about it. Doing those cutscenes and the new mechs and all that must have taken AGES.

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    I've never understood why people were so upset with Aurine's resurection. Were they expecting some dark plot where the commander has to contrive some other way to stop the Elder Dragons once and for all, all the while throwing away all of the obvious foreshadowing that went into previous chapters?

    Personally, I liked the story (although the story assumes the commander zig-zags between Lions Arch and Elona A LOT, leading one to question whether these airships move at super-sonic speeds). Aurine also recovered from her "brand to the heart" injury a little too quickly... but I digress.

  • Thandaer.8105Thandaer.8105 Member ✭✭

    I think it was an amazing episode (was a bit dissapoited by that ressurection, even though I've seen it coming; Also PLEASE do NOT make Braham laugh ever again! That thing was scary! :) )
    Cinematics, music, new map, enviroment....everything perfect.
    Looking forward the next season and its plot!

    ~ Thandaer

  • PirateSpice.8735PirateSpice.8735 Member ✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    And? There's not even a word explaining why it's okay for her to eat magic while it isn't for others. Why her holding a power of several dragons (and more, considering she got also part of balthasar's power, Joko's magic, and all of the immense amount of magic Kralky has eaten in the mists) does not unbalance the world, while it would cause a cascade failure if held by any other dragon.

    It doesn't need to be explained, as the solution is plain. It's not about a "cascade failure", it's about keeping all of that power out of the hands of the creatures that will destroy all life on Tyria. The Pact is counting on having Aurene on their side, so they're trusting her with that power.

    Remember also, that it was stated in this very story that no being could have as much magic as Kralkatorrik did without being tormented and going insane. Why Aurene is suddenly an exception to this is also not explained.

    Nobody had any clue about the torment issue when the plan was hatched, so that's not a hole in the plan.

    As for Aurene's being an exception? Maybe she's not. As you say, it's not explained. For all we know, she's the next villain, or the next LW episode will explain how she dissipated the excess magic into the Eternal Alchemy, or she ascended to a higher being than can handle all of it...who knows? Unanswered questions aren't the same as unanswerable questions.

    EDIT: After reading what you said about the issues the story brought up with the balance of the six sources of power, I have to acknowledge that does leave a pretty big hole. Though I will still say that there is room to address it, I will give you that it is something that should have been addressed already.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I enjoyed it. But there are a few things that bothered me...

    The voice acting at times was really strange, and the dialogue was a little weird. Like Braham's 3 minutes of non-stop forced laughter at max volume...

    Aurene saying, "He is DEFINITELY not happy to see me." Who wrote that? I don't know, that's a minor pet peeve but it just struck me as a bit awkward.

    The dialogue exchange between Kralk and Aurene in the final instance. 1. Kralk was kind of hard to hear. 2. It felt a bit rushed, especially with all of the combat mechanics. I feel like this part would have been a bit better in the form of a cut scene before the fight started or something.

    Other issues:

    1. It looks like we're pretty far out in the ocean, but somehow this land mass just lands into the ocean and somehow doesn't sink down into it? The placement of all of that, particularly in the ocean, seemed really strange unless they are in fact using it as a lead in to the introduction of Bubbles somehow.
    2. Skyscale's introduction. I'm still not entirely sure what they are or how they got here. It implied that they're a new species... that what.. just came out of thin air? They just manifested themselves? How does that happen? Or are they from the mists? I'm still not sure what is going on with those. Maybe they're secretly not a new species but they themselves are related to the deep sea dragon somehow. I mean, they just appeared out of thin air, and they have a hell of an appetite for fish. That part was really rushed though.

    The last issue I'd like to mention is:
    Why wasn't Canach more involved? It's like he was given Rox treatment this episode? No dialogue on the airship? No involvement really with the map. Did his voice actor get laid off or something?

  • Miss Lana.5276Miss Lana.5276 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree that the story was terrible. It's apologetics for an evil dragon because he had a bad reaction to the magic he absorbed from Zhaitan and Mordy's deaths.

    Well WHAT WAS HIS EXCUSE BEFORE THEIR DEATHS? It's trying to patch up a hole that didn't exist in order to make the ending somewhat heartwarming.

    Oh and my favourite lines from the story:
    "We can't kill him, not from out here."
    "You're saying we have to go in?"

    Want a good dose of cringe? Just pay attention to the dialogue.

    Disagreement =/= "negativity"
    Criticism =/= "hate"

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @ChronoPinoyX.7923 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Their was reason to believe that the elderdragons didn't start out completely evil in heart and minds for example he warns what his dead would do and the dragons don't nessecarily want to destroy it just happens from their precense.
    . The power (magic) corrupt storyline was present for a long time ( the white mantle storyline was especially thick of this) and I wouldn't be surprised if they tangle with the idea that aurene gets mad to after a while.

    That's never been covered anywhere when it comes to Elder Dragons. You don't drop a "bad guy was originally good guy" scenario without dropping any form of background work because that leaves a huge plothole. It's speculation at best, no solid history or lore to refer to, not even an in-game conversation that brings out history of what dragons were like when they first came to being.

    Plus human corruption isn't based on magic, it's based on selfish desires (basically seven deadly sins). They didn't have magic when they arrived in Tyria but the first thing they did was take lands as if it were their own without consideration for other races, magic was only a tool that further fuelled the conflict.

    The bloodstone crazed animals, ghost and humans do suggest that magic corrupts.

    The elder dragons are so old that their can be no source to tell how they where originaly.
    and Kralk is not the good guy per se in this instant just more sentient then one would expect

  • Lord of the Fire.6870Lord of the Fire.6870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    Okay my 5 cent to this :
    After the last episode which we had before the shock was big because one thing was sure neither the commander nor Aurene are allowed to die for the sake of the story. Without Aurene there were at least no obvious way to rescue the world also from a more emotional standard point we stand a lot of time with her and the possibility that she will become a mayor player was exciting .

    What shocked me also were the reaction of some guest(s) in the youtube channel of some Arena NETs Affiliate which basically throw a party over to celebrate Aurene death with bubbly and declaring he would uninstall the game if she came ever back. :o I thought back then its the same kind of people like GoT and they will see what kind of end they will have.(I'm already burned by BSG reboot , SGU , Merlin and some Marvel comics back in the days I know what you get with this kind of story)

    Okay with the current episode I'm super happy <3 <3 <3 and some more <3 <3 <3
    It was clear they did a build up to bring her back I was aware seconds after I ended the story but honestly I wasn't sure if they really go with this way.
    What I'm really happy about is they included all the stuff we(I) talked about in the forum and a bit more:

    • Jokos Power a way to bring her back confirmed
    • Cait having her own organisation/clan confirmed
    • The eating all kinds of magic can't be the way the elder dragons work also confirmed
    • Aurene becoming some kind of super dragon god(which integrates all the different magic) confirmed
    • EDIT: She got so big that she can't follow us confirmed
    • I think ascension was the way she got her new body at the end ??? Devs? (also can we get some more artwork of this model?)
    • We got a surprise Kralkatorrik had a mother

    Unlike some others claimed the story went exactly there were the story was built up to only thing what was not so cool was the speed was a bit too much but this was properly owed by the fact that this was the last episode by the season.

  • coso.9173coso.9173 Member ✭✭✭

    about aurene's voice I assumed it's some kind of psyschic voice directly into our heads, that's why it sounds like that, but might be just me.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @PirateSpice.8735 said:
    EDIT: After reading what you said about the issues the story brought up with the balance of the six sources of power, I have to acknowledge that does leave a pretty big hole. Though I will still say that there is room to address it, I will give you that it is something that should have been addressed already.

    Indeed, there's still some room to address it left. Problem is, it's not a lot of room. Duing PoF we've been told it's a matter of years, probably. That was before Balthasar's death and Kralkatorring gorging on the mists accelerated the issue manifold. I mean, at the time of the previous episode we've already seen parts of the mists (and other realities) intersecting our own. That was not a direct result of Krakatolrik's powers - that was reality starting to unravel. We don't have years. We have much, much less. In fact, one could say that Tyria is already living on borrowed time.
    In that time, we'd have to somehow get rid of 3 dragons (2 of them asleep, one active), in a way that won't cause the already very fragile reality break apart, then replace them with a new system (no, everything we've heard so far suggests that single aurene would not be enough).

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Aurene is basically Crystal Jesus.

    Almost literally, seeing as she is indeed a crystal dragon, and that she died for our failures, and self-resurrected after that. And then became our saviour.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:
    Aurene's resurrection brings a precedent where any Dragon can consume enough Magic of a specific type and be able to corrupt with that type of Magic...

    If a Dragon were to consume the Magic of the Jade Sea and feed on Leylines... Jade Elder Dragon! If another Dragon were to consume the Magic of Echovald Forest and feed on Leylines... Elder Dragon of Stone and Plants(of the Moss and Fern kind)! If yet another Dragon were to feed on the Magics of the Domain of Pain or Afflicted then feed on Leylines... Flesh Elder Dragon! If a Dragon were to feed on the Celestials followed by feeding on a Leyline... Celestial Elder Dragon!

    The news of Aurene's survival will reach some ambitious Dragons(or Dragon masters) and they will make a move on the most interesting Magic in order to fill the holes left by Zhaitan and Mordremoth's deaths(with the ones in the same territory eating each other in the process)!

    Yes but only when the dragon starts to absorb this kind of magic in his child form also I think she used the ascension to retrofit her body to adapt to the huge amount of magic and becoming more open to the different forms of magic she didn't had at this time.

    I don't know of any dragon master but like I showed its complicate to reproduce also the other elder dragons don't know about ascension. I theory some child of an elder dragon could go through the same procedure but the only elder dragon left is the deep sea dragon.(the other 2 are in a coma possible for the next 100 year or so)

    Also Auren takes now over Zhaitan and Mordremoth's role also Kralks powers and role on top of that Balthazar powers whatever they were when he died , Jokos powers and a huge junk of the magic out of the mists and the domains in it. The mist magic I think she is currently bringing it back into the mists.

    Also if my theory about her ascension is correct she isn't bound by just tyria and the mist any more she can visit other dimension any time she wants.

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    You know, that's the problem with episodic releases: people are given too much time to speculate, and of course, eventually, they figure out the actual outcome of a storyline. They then react with disappointment when it happens, because they did not get surprised with an overwhelming alternative.

    Television shows like "Lost" suffered the same fate: many viewers, after the pilot aired, already assumed that those stranded on the island weren't the survivors of the plane crash but actually the ones who died, at least those of the dead who still had things left unresolved in their lives, and that the island was a gateway into Heaven or Hell. Then the writers spent years of trying to distract the audience from that view, inventing all sorts of stuff that could lead to a possible other outcome of the story arc (time travel, rifts in the space-time continuum, an experiment gone wrong), only to deliver the obvious ending at the finale. Most (former) "Lost" fans were so miffed by the end that they no longer speak fondly of the show - and rightfully so.

    That is why I prefer expansions in games like GW2 which you can play through in one go, without long breaks, and which are also offering a conclusion at the end instead of constant cliffhangers along the way.

    In any case, regarding the circumstances of Episode 6, I think it was handled very well by the devs by delivering a well executed solution, even though the solution per se was already common knowledge.

  • Knuckle Joe.7408Knuckle Joe.7408 Member ✭✭✭

    @McPero.3287 said:

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    it's amazing you didn't see this coming, it was so obvious you didn't even need any spoiler tags to see this miles ahead.

    @McPero.3287 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Sounds disappointing. All that talk of "character death" only to bring her back the nexr episode lul.

    thought it was pretty obvious with eating jako.

    It was an option they had, but does that mean they have to go with it?

    @McPero.3287 said:

    @Knuckle Joe.7408 said:
    Ifd you didn't see it coming you're dumb, dragons absorb magic, and Aurene absorbed an immortal lich's magic. You're missing out on what is probably the best living world episode anet has ever done.

    And you missed a gigantic plot hole. Everytime Kralk would kill a magical being he would absorb their energy. So either he absorbs Aurenes magic which stupidly includes Jokos ability to be immortal or he would realise Aurene is not dead and would keep trying to kill her, maybe eat her like she eats Joko. He can definitely sense her magic. There is no explanation to why he would just leave her alive inside the crystals.

    no plot hole, kralka left immediately after killing her, didn't consume her magic because she was never really dead t obegin with, the same reason how killing joko physically would not end him, he had to actually be eaten and assimilated by a dragon

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    You know, that's the problem with episodic releases: people are given too much time to speculate, and of course, eventually, they figure out the actual outcome of a storyline. They then react with disappointment when it happens, because they did not get surprised with an overwhelming alternative.

    Television shows like "Lost" suffered the same fate: many viewers, after the pilot aired, already assumed that those stranded on the island weren't the survivors of the plane crash but actually the ones who died, at least those of the dead who still had things left unresolved in their lives, and that the island was a gateway into Heaven or Hell. Then the writers spent years of trying to distract the audience from that view, inventing all sorts of stuff that could lead to a possible other outcome of the story arc (time travel, rifts in the space-time continuum, an experiment gone wrong), only to deliver the obvious ending at the finale. Most (former) "Lost" fans were so miffed by the end that they no longer speak fondly of the show - and rightfully so.

    That is why I prefer expansions in games like GW2 which you can play through in one go, without long breaks, and which are also offering a conclusion at the end instead of constant cliffhangers along the way.

    In any case, regarding the circumstances of Episode 6, I think it was handled very well by the devs by delivering a well executed solution, even though the solution per se was already common knowledge.

    Also lw is balanced for ppl that play each episode on release. Anyone who comes and binge plays it will get a lesser experience because they design it as an episode series.

  • Zalani.9827Zalani.9827 Member ✭✭✭

    The only downside I had with the story was that Aurene came back to quick, the fact that all this trauma drama was avoidable if someone pulled a spike out is a bit offputting imo.
    I enjoyed the rest of the story though, the maps good and the fight after Aurene comes back was a cool moment.

    It’s nice to see Aurenes arc finally come to a close for now. I mean she has been with us since Season 2 and Kralk himself for almost 9 years if you consider out of game content and even gw1 with glint’s prophecy. It’s been a long running story really.
    I’m looking forward to a new story arc, makes me wonder what’s coming next.

    Jadis Narnia, Sylvari Ranger of [VoS]

    Praise Joko!

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I feel the same about that first bit. It was a bit too fast. It would have made more of an impact if we had to gather a few things or people to prepare the ceremony, and then at the moment noone expect it, we bring her back.

    I think if this dying resurrecting happened in the same episode it wouldve made less of an impact, but at least wouldnt trick the player with a cheap cliffhanger effect

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Have you ever heard of “jumping the shark?” Since PoF the story jumped the shark so many times that trying to have any constant or logical flow is impossible. It is just a bunch of random kitten on top of each other.

    I think the episode is one of the better LWS4 episodes. But that is not saying much. I liked that for the first time since HoT the map and story are well connected, which was alway GW2 strongest suit.

  • adormtil.1605adormtil.1605 Member ✭✭

    @Ben K.6238 said:

    @wickedkae.4980 said:
    The story was terrible. She comes back to life instantly. There was no point in her "death". This game needs to gets its kitten straight. Anet writers are deathly afraid of taking chances and the games sales have suffered because of it.

    I'm going to need statistical proof to believe that one. There is no MMO on the market whose story is the #1 selling point.

    If I'm looking for a new MMO and someone tells me that this one isn't afraid to kill off main characters? Well that's nice, dear. Now please tell me something important, like whether it's actually fun.

    I will argue that SWTOR has that as its number 1 selling point.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @adormtil.1605 said:

    @Ben K.6238 said:

    @wickedkae.4980 said:
    The story was terrible. She comes back to life instantly. There was no point in her "death". This game needs to gets its kitten straight. Anet writers are deathly afraid of taking chances and the games sales have suffered because of it.

    I'm going to need statistical proof to believe that one. There is no MMO on the market whose story is the #1 selling point.

    If I'm looking for a new MMO and someone tells me that this one isn't afraid to kill off main characters? Well that's nice, dear. Now please tell me something important, like whether it's actually fun.

    I will argue that SWTOR has that as its number 1 selling point.

    I would argue that IP is SWTOR's primary selling point. Otherwise there would be no reason to spend some much on the rights.

  • wickedkae.4980wickedkae.4980 Member ✭✭✭

    @Twyn.7320 said:
    It'd be nice if people could look at a story [that I personally disliked but that's beside the point] and not give it a free pass of mediocrity 'because it's a game/MMO'. If a story's average, a story's average. Copping out a reason that it's a game doesn't excuse the fact that a story is bad, average, good or anywhere in-between. Gaming is just another form of media, we wouldn't do the same for TV, radio, movies etc. It'd be like saying:

    'Well, The Last Airbender movie doesn't need a good story, because it's just a movie and you just need to watch a movie because of how pretty it looks.'

    And ironically, I think that's where my gripe with GW2 comes in. The maps look gorgeous, the sound design is 11/10, the voice acting is a bit hit and miss from time to time but generally okay. The music has really improved in recent years, actually evoking sympathy for a change.

    But IMO, the writing is below average, full of plot-holes and rushed. Everything gets tied up in a nice bow, with nothing left to be explored and no lasting consequences. The only reason why people are invested in what comes next is that we've been told that Season 5 is coming shortly, outside of the game itself. There's very little in this Episode that actually sets up a long-lasting narrative.

    Ultimately, I feel the need to speak to those who disagree with my stance. People aren't looking for Game of Thrones in a Guild Wars 2 re-skin when it comes to character deaths. However, people are looking for lasting consequences that build up to something that we have a role in. With Aurene's death in E5, it created the connection between us and Kralkatorrik. People wanted to end him, because of the absence of Aurene. Sometimes, it's best to leave people's emotions to drive the story, rather than bringing something back to life for the sake of fan feedback and potential outrage mitigation. If people are feeling sorrow and grief for a character's death, that's brilliant. It's exactly what you want as a story-teller. That allows a player to push onwards and actually connect with this 'force of nature' that serves as the antagonist.

    If the root connection of our emotion is brought back to us, with no lasting consequences or hardships, the link breaks down between the protagonist and the antagonist. This is why a portion of the player-base hate the resurrection of Aurene. It reduced Kralkatorrik's threat to Dragon's Watch and the world of Tyria to nothing and broke down our connection with him as an antagonist. If Aurene's return was necessary, we needed to experience the devastation of Kralkatorrik on Tyria before she entered the story again. I've seen some amazing ideas above, regarding the first, two chapters and how we could've brought Aurene back to life ourselves, through a trial of fire.

    For instance, imagine if the initial chapters involved us travelling around the major cities of the core world, and discussing with the world's leaders about the threat of Kralkatorrik. We could discover that portions of existing zones have been branded, causing Kralkatorrik's minions to pillage the world's settlements at an increased rate. I'm aware that this would've been a financial challenge, but something along these lines would've been beneficial before Aurene's resurrection, in my opinion.

    To prevent myself from rambling on and on about the storyline, I just need to conclude with a final statement:

    People are allowed to have a negative opinion. If they feel that their time has been wasted, then they're allowed to get heated and vent. That's what the forums are designed for. If there's a noticeable surge in negative feedback, it proves that something has gone wrong with a recent addition. Just because you disagree with them, it doesn't mean that there isn't an issue with delivery. The recent example is Aurene's resurrection, and from what I've personally seen, the community's split in half. There's an issue here, and ignoring it is silly.

    The way that I see it: If you dislike the Skyscale Acquisition and have complained about it, don't tell others that complaining about Aurene's resurrection is 'casual' or 'wrong'. Debate the extent of the problems, and bring alternative solutions. Don't just shut someone down because you disagree with them.

    This nails it well. All of you defending mediocrity need to stop. Lots of us actually have high standards and there is nothing wrong with this. When I pay money for something I demand quality. Anet does not provide this in the story department. Please fund new writers capable of thinking creatively. Ensure that your new writers are not redditors or fan fiction writers.

  • misterman.1530misterman.1530 Member ✭✭✭

    @McPero.3287 said:
    When I saw Aurene get resurected in first instance I just Alt+F4 the game. If you are gonna bring her back at least don't do it immediately, what was the point of her dying if she is instantly back. Terrible story telling. You kill a quality villain in the first fight (Joko) and bring back a mute dragon (which yes speaks now) that had no character to it but was just liked by people because it looked cute and shinned. Not sure if I'll even play this episode now maybe if Taimi dies I will. Does she?

    The big thing for me is now she can talk. All of a sudden. I don't think eating Joko gave her immortality AND the ability to speak in a refined accent.

  • MidnightX.6294MidnightX.6294 Member ✭✭✭

    they have chosen the most obvious things that could have happend - aurene resurects because she ate joko and kralky gets killed.
    and thats what made it a terrible and boring episode.
    the only thing that made up for it was the pretty, colorful dungeon of his belly and the end-clip.

    Nothing to see here - move along.

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