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With the focus on Soulbeast, did we forget about Holo?


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Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.

  • Great healing
  • great armor
  • great mobility
  • great damage
  • invuln
  • stealth
  • boon fart extraordinaire
  • multi foe sustainability
  • unblockable
  • blocks
  • reflects
  • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
  • stability and stability access
  • mega might stacking
  • They are also CC machines.
  • they can keep you revealed with one trait that has 2 separate cooldowns
  • oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.

  • Great healing
  • great armor
  • great mobility
  • great damage
  • invuln
  • stealth
  • boon fart extraordinaire
  • multi foe sustainability
  • unblockable
  • blocks
  • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
  • oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

I don't think anyone has forgotten.You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

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-Great HealingOnly thing that may need a slight shave, and you can do that by just lowering Heat Therapy to 5 stacks max only instead of a potential 10 stacks over time-Great ArmorNot really. If you spec for it, you could get some good protection uptime I guess, but that's still able to be stripped/corrupted pretty easily.-MobilityYou can probably increase the cooldown on PF 2 by like 3s, (and up the swiftness given by it to compensate) but aside from that and a utility belt elixir for a few seconds of Superspeed, all thats left is a 1200 unit jump on Rifle. That's not excessive or high mobility in the least. There's also Rocket Boots and trait but that's an investment in mobility over more quickness from KB-Great DamageDepends on what you're comparing it to. A lot of things are pretty high up there when it comes to just dealing damage right now.-InvulnVery limited, cannot act within it beyond revive/finishing targets or dodging to activate Vent Exhaust-Muh BoonsMostly through conversion if traited/invested into that sort of thing. Still vulnerable to corruption/stripping on its tail-end-Unblockable....on an elite that has a windup before it fires and nothing else.-BlockWithout Shield or Tool Kit, just one on over a 30s CD......-SuperspeedOnly on Elixir U Toolbelt or Kinetic Battery trigger, unless they carry and trait Rocket Boots (trading the quickness uptime for more mobility)

Holosmith is versatile but I wouldnt say its overwhelmingly strong. A mild shave in its sustain alone would probably be enough when it comes to its overall balance. Though something I'd really like them to consider is making ECSU and PBM a bit more attractive as GM traits. Right now, there's very little reason to take them over Vent Exhaust because its really effective at cutting out your excess Heat both in forge and out of it, allowing much better management of the mechanic. If Heat Therapy gets shaved like I stated above, maybe having heat degradation start up slightly faster might give the other two a bit more use.(Or maybe just making Coolant Blast consume some heat on use....that could be pretty neat.)

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@Solori.6025 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.
  • Great healing
  • great armor
  • great mobility
  • great damage
  • invuln
  • stealth
  • boon fart extraordinaire
  • multi foe sustainability
  • unblockable
  • blocks
  • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
  • oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

I don't think anyone has forgotten.You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.

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@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.
  • Great healing
  • great armor
  • great mobility
  • great damage
  • invuln
  • stealth
  • boon fart extraordinaire
  • multi foe sustainability
  • unblockable
  • blocks
  • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
  • oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

I don't think anyone has forgotten.You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.

Some core engi traits should be changed -- but as part of a larger approach to balance. Anti-corrosion plating, for example, is beyond busted with how it interplays with condition damage. But I think condition damage systems need to be re-evaluated.

Additionally, core engi lines of firearms and explosives need to have a place in PvP. I'd change those as well, because Inventions/Alch/Tools are the only core lines really seeing use in PvP. They're designed with outmoded means of play in mind, and Holo was simply a bandaid over the core class, which is in a pretty bad state.

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@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.
  • Great healing
  • great armor
  • great mobility
  • great damage
  • invuln
  • stealth
  • boon fart extraordinaire
  • multi foe sustainability
  • unblockable
  • blocks
  • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
  • oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

I don't think anyone has forgotten.You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.Since you agree on that ... is Mesmer getting 100% nerf revert on all core traits/weapons?
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I have to agree with engi mains, at this point holosmith is more of a l2p issue. Trust me I know, been running scholar core ele with no toughness, and daggers to boot.

All you really need to do is kite and LoS during forge, and make sure you dodge his stab skill. The rest of their damage isn't that great, however the range of the Holographic Shockwave could use som reduction to about 360, as currently it's a little to easy to get cc'ed by it even if you are not participating in the fight. Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.

Out of all the matchups that are currently meta I would say holosmith is the easiest if you play a power variant, so nerfing them any further would just push them straight out in favor of warriors.

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@"rng.1024" said:All you really need to do is kite and LoS during forge, and make sure you dodge his stab skill.

This would be fine if forge skills had longer cooldowns, as it stands i dubbed holo forge the

.The issue i find with holo is that it is suppose to be a glassy spec akin to berzerker but it has so much active defense available in the holo line which is then bolstered by the passive defense from core lines that it becomes bruiser-ish.

But i would rather they address soul beast first before holo, just a preference.

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I don't think people forgot. There were some nerf-engi threads (both Holo and Scrapper) recently. Both Soulbeast and Holo (as well as Spellbreaker) are still power-crept PoF bloat and need some adjustments.

I'm not sure why, but I personally see more SlBs in matches than Holos. Maybe SlB has a lower skill floor to be effective and engis are more divided between Holo and Scrapper since both are meta.

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@rng.1024 said:(...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.(...)

It follows you even when you port. You need to dodge, blind it or have stab.#

Holo is not the biggest offender right now. It is great and there is a gap between it and several other less viable classes, but there are some being more annoying. Holo comes next.

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@"rng.1024" said:I have to agree with engi mains, at this point holosmith is more of a l2p issue. Trust me I know, been running scholar core ele with no toughness, and daggers to boot.

All you really need to do is kite and LoS during forge, and make sure you dodge his stab skill. The rest of their damage isn't that great, however the range of the Holographic Shockwave could use som reduction to about 360, as currently it's a little to easy to get cc'ed by it even if you are not participating in the fight. Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.

Out of all the matchups that are currently meta I would say holosmith is the easiest if you play a power variant, so nerfing them any further would just push them straight out in favor of warriors.

The real l2p issue is for an ele to lose to a ranger..the pewpew all like to cry about is only good as +1 (unless you find rangers of ROM level) , while the soulbeast does close to half the dmg of a warrior strength or rev sword burst,all the while the "non engi" mains forget about the quickness uptime and 25 might with which even forge skill 1 starts to deal huge dmg, not counting then all the sustain a holosmith has

Despite all the l2p claims at the high end of pvp( AT monthly EU/NA) you find holosmiths/scrappers and certainly not soulbeast of any variant, it tells everything the real l2p issue

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"rng.1024" said:I have to agree with engi mains, at this point holosmith is more of a l2p issue. Trust me I know, been running scholar core ele with no toughness, and daggers to boot.

All you really need to do is kite and LoS during forge, and make sure you dodge his stab skill. The rest of their damage isn't that great, however the range of the Holographic Shockwave could use som reduction to about 360, as currently it's a little to easy to get cc'ed by it even if you are not participating in the fight. Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.

Out of all the matchups that are currently meta I would say holosmith is the easiest if you play a power variant, so nerfing them any further would just push them straight out in favor of warriors.

The real l2p issue is for an ele to lose to a ranger..the pewpew all like to cry about is only good as +1 (unless you find rangers of ROM level) , while the soulbeast does close to half the dmg of a warrior strength or rev sword burst,all the while the "non engi" mains forget about the quickness uptime and 25 might with which even forge skill 1 starts to deal huge dmg, not counting then all the sustain a holosmith has

Despite all the l2p claims at the high end of pvp( AT monthly EU/NA) you find holosmiths/scrappers and certainly not soulbeast of any variant, it tells everything the real l2p issue

There are several in Plat3. The issue with - especially Sic' em! - is that it gets basically hardcountered by revs. And those are quite popular indeed.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.
  • Great healing
  • great armor
  • great mobility
  • great damage
  • invuln
  • stealth
  • boon fart extraordinaire
  • multi foe sustainability
  • unblockable
  • blocks
  • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
  • oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

I don't think anyone has forgotten.You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.

Some core engi traits should be changed -- but as part of a larger approach to balance. Anti-corrosion plating, for example, is beyond busted with how it interplays with condition damage. But I think condition damage systems need to be re-evaluated.

Additionally, core engi lines of firearms and explosives need to have a place in PvP. I'd change those as well, because Inventions/Alch/Tools are the only core lines really seeing use in PvP. They're designed with outmoded means of play in mind, and Holo was simply a bandaid over the core class, which is in a pretty bad state.

To me Anti Corrosion is an absolute must because the current state of the game where 1 skill equals 4 conditions being push out. Fix ingame condition application and then fix how anti corrosion works afterwards or else core engies will suffer from it.

Agree with the rest, would especially love buffs to a lot of the core skills that havent seen love in years.

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.
  • Great healing
  • great armor
  • great mobility
  • great damage
  • invuln
  • stealth
  • boon fart extraordinaire
  • multi foe sustainability
  • unblockable
  • blocks
  • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
  • oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

I don't think anyone has forgotten.You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.Since you agree on that ... is Mesmer getting 100% nerf revert on all core traits/weapons?

No, idk? Mesmer was never really in a bad spot to begin with. Idk about mesmer recent changes or anything since I havent really touched mines since before HoT.

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@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.
  • Great healing
  • great armor
  • great mobility
  • great damage
  • invuln
  • stealth
  • boon fart extraordinaire
  • multi foe sustainability
  • unblockable
  • blocks
  • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
  • oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

I don't think anyone has forgotten.You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.Since you agree on that ... is Mesmer getting 100% nerf revert on all core traits/weapons?

No, idk? Mesmer was never really in a bad spot to begin with. Idk about mesmer recent changes or anything since I havent really touched mines since before HoT.So, from your perspective: dont touch my main core but nerf other classes to its core, I dont care. Cant be even more biased at this point . You just demonstrated how 99% of "community" want thing to go. I just wish now engineer will get the same treatment as mesmer, gutted core instead of elite specs with over 50% nerfs at everything, then I will tell to engi mains they never been in a bad spot to begin with.
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@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.
  • Great healing
  • great armor
  • great mobility
  • great damage
  • invuln
  • stealth
  • boon fart extraordinaire
  • multi foe sustainability
  • unblockable
  • blocks
  • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
  • oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

I don't think anyone has forgotten.You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.Since you agree on that ... is Mesmer getting 100% nerf revert on all core traits/weapons?

No, idk? Mesmer was never really in a bad spot to begin with. Idk about mesmer recent changes or anything since I havent really touched mines since before HoT.So, from your perspective: dont touch my main core but nerf other classes to its core, I dont care. Cant be even more biased at this point . You just demonstrated how 99% of "community" want thing to go. I just wish now engineer will get the same treatment as mesmer, gutted core instead of elite specs with over 50% nerfs at everything, then I will tell to engi mains they never been in a bad spot to begin with.

Its not biased opinion when I never brought attention to mesmer. Not every class is balanced the same way. So why should my thoughts on core engineer(Which is already weak) be reflected on mesmer? Especially in a engineer focused topic.

Not even sure where I said to nerf any other class in the post you quoted. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

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@"Crab Fear.1624" said:

  • stability and stability accessAgainst mesmer/ranger easy close to 100% stability uptime. Each 6 seconds you have to avoid corona burst that slap you for 3-4k, twice, does dodge comes back that quick ? Probably not
  • mega might stackingMega boon stacking all by passives and new busted conversion brough by holosmith each time you leave forge that also gives them more boons. 5 seconds CD on forge makes it hilarious. Want to start taking down boons ? Make it cleanse only, no conversions.Look at damn elixir first minor,thats better than their active utility skill and has less 10s cd than original, with elixir trait its gives on 24s cd : 7 mights,swiftness,fury,retal. Yes ! You really took that damage, here is free utility skill with even lower cd!I can compare this to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Metaphysical_Rejuvenation 10s regen for 1300 hp? Really ? How is this is not SMITERSBOONED YET? Both first minor traits not even freaking worth of one engi minor,not even close to be.Busy rn,might add later
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@iKeostuKen.2738 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Holo still needs to be toned down.

What don't they have?

I don't know, but I do know what they have.
  • Great healing
  • great armor
  • great mobility
  • great damage
  • invuln
  • stealth
  • boon fart extraordinaire
  • multi foe sustainability
  • unblockable
  • blocks
  • superspeed (same trait drops movement impede like thief grandmasters, even tho its mid tier)
  • oh and then they got photon forge

I mean, c'mon....

I don't think anyone has forgotten.You will also run into the few notable engie mains who will do anything and everything possible to make sure nerf suggestions for engi remain buried or are swiftly discredited.Some of the issues with Holo stem from the Alchemy tree. A good place to start is there, for example.They could nerf Invigorating Speed. Make it a 10s CD with a 3s Vigor duration.

How about they dont touch the core engineer tree. If they want to nerf holo then nerf holo. Otherwise, leave core traits alone.Since you agree on that ... is Mesmer getting 100% nerf revert on all core traits/weapons?

No, idk? Mesmer was never really in a bad spot to begin with. Idk about mesmer recent changes or anything since I havent really touched mines since before HoT.So, from your perspective: dont touch my main core but nerf other classes to its core, I dont care. Cant be even more biased at this point . You just demonstrated how 99% of "community" want thing to go. I just wish now engineer will get the same treatment as mesmer, gutted core instead of elite specs with over 50% nerfs at everything, then I will tell to engi mains they never been in a bad spot to begin with.

Its not biased opinion when I never brought attention to mesmer. Not every class is balanced the same way. So why should my thoughts on core engineer(Which is already weak) be reflected on mesmer? Especially in a engineer focused topic.

Not even sure where I said to nerf any other class in the post you quoted. ¯_(ツ)_/¯I dont care, what exactly you wanted, a lot of other people demanded that. Not seeing a single reason to treat engineer in a special way other than any other class, suddenly its normal to gut core class traits/weapons for other classes but your must be untouched.But I want to see consistency in the way things are balanced.If one class is nerfed ( in this case a a few) through core and elite specs to deal with a problem. I see no reason why another class is automatically exempt from the same treatment.Core mesmer never been shining since HoT but that never stopped to nerf core instead of elite spec, so your "core engi is already weak" is completely irrelevant. Core engi is that weak that we see 3 holo builds in "great" metabattle category and scrapper as meta one.
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reduce some healing from heat therapy, someone said make it 5 stacks only which is an excellent idea.cut durations from some of the boons (perma vigor biggest offender)increase holo 2 to 4 maybe 5 sec cdremove 100% crit from holo 5 and make it range 450

this way u wont touch core engi (maybe except for the vigor part)

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@foste.3098 said:

@"rng.1024" said:All you really need to do is kite and LoS during forge, and make sure you dodge his stab skill.

This would be fine if forge skills had longer cooldowns, as it stands i dubbed holo forge the
.The issue i find with holo is that it is suppose to be a glassy spec akin to berzerker but it has so much active defense available in the holo line which is then bolstered by the passive defense from core lines that it becomes bruiser-ish.

But i would rather they address soul beast first before holo, just a preference.

Glassy? I wouldn't call them that, with demolisher amulet, full on sustainy traitlines and leadership runes - so yeah bruiser is alot more accurate.

The forge cooldowns are fine, sure it can be spammed but at the cost of building heat. Weakness is great if they vent while dodging, and you can indeed force dodges leaving them wide open for a burst mid forge if you so want. I mean all you need to do essentially is go behind a crate/pillar/rock and simply wait and there is nothing he can do. Leave the node even if you are that squishy.

Once we start balancing around who can outsustain who standing still on top of eachother, then we need to remove profession diversity completely in order to get anywhere.

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@Megametzler.5729 said:

@rng.1024 said:(...) Also avoid his elite, you can blind it or simply sidestep.(...)

It follows you even when you port. You need to dodge, blind it or have stab.#

Holo is not the biggest offender right now. It is great and there is a gap between it and several other less viable classes, but there are some being more annoying. Holo comes next.

Yeah it follows if he releases awsd - which already alot of people don't know. Then it activates, leaving you a very slight delay which takes a split second to reach you where you can simply walk out of the incoming field.

You can try it yourself, by having a friend fire it towards you and the walk away at the end of his cast. It's nothing new, alot of skills function like this and they've always countered ports.

If you want to check it out Boyce does exactly this on several streams, also check out Jazz X Man's guide on youtube against holosmith to see different ways it can be countered.

What exactly is it that makes holo such a big offender in your opinion?

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