Danger Time — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Danger Time

Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

Once a fairly useless trait, Danger time is now a inconsistently powerful trait that can grant up to a ~20% dmg increase depending on how much slow uptime your allies can maintain in PvE. This has resulted in fairly bloated raid benchmarks (35-37k), where dps chronos in non-raid conditions/with poor slow uptime (due to a lack of specific allies) and non-DT builds suffer from a similar ~20% dps gap, wallowing in the dumps along with the seemingly non-existent power herald (=< ~30k dps, even worse than reaper and the new power zerker).

20% dmg increase?
At first glance anyone could see the 10% dmg modifier under slow; however, the 15% increase in crit chance (previously 30%) allows the chrono to take 315 additional power, a ~9% increase in power under raid conditions (boons, banners, food effects etc.). This is of course, assumes near 100% uptime on slow (supplied by 2 support chronos and or condi renegades, and not the pchrono themselves).

My biggest gripe about the trait isn’t about the overall power of trait, but more about how the chrono contributes effectively nothing or very little (at a cost of CC) to the slow uptime required for such a massive dmg increase (at least in high end PvE).

Recap:
- DT pchrono @ 35-37k
- Non-DT pchrono @ =< ~30k
- Core mes hovering somewhere @ ~25k.

At the dawn of this new tradeoff era (if it even exists?), it would sensible to lessen the gap between core and chrono (25k v 37k) to make core mes somewhat more of a competive choice in PvE, and not just PvP. This comes with the proposal to rip the crit chance increase from DT and place it back into core, allowing all current and future power dps builds to not take as much assassins gear, especially with the decline of external precision granted by allies (spotter and banner nerfs). A few examples of ways to implement this:

  • Thematically speaking, a crit chance increase belongs in the condi/crit traitline, which would appear to be Duelling.
  • The increase is slapped on to Master Fencer. Alternatively, the effectiveness of fury is doubled on the Mesmer and their illusions (Rolling Mists v2). The fury is then moved to Phantasmal Fury to work like the skill Phantasmal Haste.
  • ~315 precision somehow replaces the ferocity in Fencer’s Finesse in its current or another reworked form.
  • Any other reasonable suggestions.

What happens to Danger Time?
This trait will always suffer from the fact how slow uptime is either not very acessible, or possibly too accessible (e.g. in a raid scenario). In order to address this, chrono needs natural access to slow, or the conditions needs to be more lenient, e.g. apply boon/condition or deal x% increased dmg when you are ‘faster’ than your opponent (quickness > normal > slow); but its effectiveness needs to decrease to compensate for the increased accessibility. IMO, dps chrono doesn’t require anymore dmg buffs outside of Chronophantasma and Lost Time (and maybe another competing trait to replace Seize the Moment) if core mes is to stay anywhere near competitive - the removal of such dmg traits would likely place the balance between core and chrono closer to 27k vs 32-33k, which appears much more manageable, while still leaving pchrono at a fairly decent spot.

WHAT ABOUT PVP???
Now I am completely aware that PvP builds such as power mirage and oneshot builds etc. that stem from core probably don’t deserve anymore dmg buffs from this proposed change, but I am not very well-versed in that gamemode since I don’t play it (the closest I’ve been is WvW). I do feel as though it’s a design problem with mesmer with its access to instacasts and other skills in order to build up dmg very quickly, but I’ll have to leave the necessary counter-nerfs to the PvPers to decide, preferably in the form of gamemode skill splits.

pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

Comments

  • viquing.8254viquing.8254 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2019

    Don't worry, in PvP mes playing burst chrono can be count in a half-hand.

  • Me Games Ma.8426Me Games Ma.8426 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    I understand it correctly that it is not all the points on your list you want to see but only one, right?

    I don't think that these changes would be enough to get core Mesmer into a good spot. I would like to see a pattern like this:
    DPS Chrono(with slow) > DPS Mesmer > DPS Chrono (without slow)
    To achieve that you'd still need chrono to be superior with Danger Time but have core mesmer compete against the no-slow version which can still run IA and Chronophantasma.
    I believe that Chronophantasma (+100%) is too strong compared to similar dps increase traits that core mesmer has: Empowered Illusions (+15%) and Phantasmal Force (+25%). Nerfing that trait and improving base mesmer could be the way to go rather than moving away from Danger Time.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    This is actually my main point I * should * be really dancing around.

    My biggest gripe about the trait isn’t [only] about the overall power of trait, but more about how the chrono contributes effectively nothing or very little (at a cost of CC) to the slow uptime required for such a massive dmg increase (at least in high end PvE).

    IMO, chronophantasma isn’t actually all that bad; it’s the combination of Csplit + Chronophantasma that creates the main distinction between core and chrono, since it provides burst for a class that doesn’t already have noticeable one. The chrono gets to do its ‘superburst’ twice in its meta benchmark, which inflates its dps in a way; what we don’t see is that core mes has actually a similar sustained dps vs IA chrono via a higher dmg per hit basis, since it is able to use flat dmg% mods from Domi/Illu. Chronophantasma is not the same as a generic dmg% mod - the damage is spread out, which makes chrono quite inefficient at dealing with enemies that go down quickly and or switching targets, due to how more reliant chrono is at building up dps through phantasms. Chronophantasma w/o any other dmg trait doesn’t make it much more stronger than core aside from the ‘burst’ (which actually comes from Csplit), thus my prior suggestion to allow chrono for ONE dmg trait only (located all at grandmaster tier).

    Danger Time adds a massive insult to injury since I’ve explained it’s practically a flat out ~20% increase in dps, completely defeating the advantage of having the third core traitline. This means the replacement traitline that core drops for chrono has to have an equal overall +20% dmg increase simply because of this trait. In fact, all three traitlines that that core takes would actually have to give ~20% dmg just to compete with the current version Danger Time.

    The main change I am looking at is transferring some of the potency of Danger Time into a core traitline that dps power builds are most likely to use, but also to alleviate the amount of additional precision any power mesmer has to gear since core does not have any access to additional crit chance% enhancing traits or skills (where every other profession has at least one). The precision famine is becoming so bad that mes has to take nearly full assassin gear, or assassin gear on top of thief runes. I don’t mean to completely delete Danger Time as of yet, but I would say that it absolutely cannot coexist with chronophantasma, and I would personally give Danger Time the boot since it increases dmg almost the same way every other traitline does, making chrono ‘a mesmer that deals the same dmg, now with Csplit.’

    Although I guess I could be okay with DPS Chrono(with slow) > DPS Mesmer > DPS Chrono (without slow), I proposed in another thread that I’d rather prefer DPS Chrono (uses Csplit effectively) > DPS Mesmer > DPS Chrono (who stuffs up or ignores Csplit), while also giving mes specific scenarios where it just trumps the chrono (practically any fight that isn’t a golem boss fight). Chrono gives you the tools to be a better mesmer, but if you don’t/can’t use it properly, you’re better off using core.

    If you want to keep Danger Time:

    This trait will always suffer from the fact how slow uptime is either not very acessible, or possibly too accessible (e.g. in a raid scenario). In order to address this, chrono needs natural access to slow, or the conditions needs to be more lenient, e.g. apply boon/condition or deal x% increased dmg when you are ‘faster’ than your opponent (quickness > normal > slow); but its effectiveness needs to decrease to compensate for the increased accessibility.

    Basically, it can’t be broken stupid at max potential (where you don’t even provide any slow), and it can’t be total garbage at minimal potential. It needs to have more of a middle line, in other words.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Me Games Ma.8426Me Games Ma.8426 Member ✭✭✭

    I think there is a way to address this topic.
    What would you say if we got these changes:

    • Danger Time: Decrease Crit and put more crit into Dueling. Add an effect to slow itself (e.g. slow is more potent, lasts longer, etc.) slightly increase critical damage boost (possibly from 15% to 20%).
    • Swap Lost Time and Danger Time

    What would happen is a coexistence of two kinds of Chrono builds, one that ideally runs Lost Time and Danger Time and focuses on slow uptime and dps and one thst focuses on phantasm spam via Chronophantasma.
    Depending on adjustable numbers they'd be able to balance like this:
    1. Chronophantasma (uses CS effectively)
    2. Danger Time (uses CS effectively)
    3. Core Mesmer
    4. Danger Time (ignores CS)
    5. Chronophantasma (ignores CS)

    What do you think?

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @Me Games Ma.8426 said:
    I think there is a way to address this topic.
    What would you say if we got these changes:

    • Danger Time: Decrease Crit and put more crit into Dueling. Add an effect to slow itself (e.g. slow is more potent, lasts longer, etc.) slightly increase critical damage boost (possibly from 15% to 20%).
    • Swap Lost Time and Danger Time

    What would happen is a coexistence of two kinds of Chrono builds, one that ideally runs Lost Time and Danger Time and focuses on slow uptime and dps and one thst focuses on phantasm spam via Chronophantasma.
    Depending on adjustable numbers they'd be able to balance like this:
    1. Chronophantasma (uses CS effectively)
    2. Danger Time (uses CS effectively)
    3. Core Mesmer
    4. Danger Time (ignores CS)
    5. Chronophantasma (ignores CS)

    What do you think?

    The points are mostly good, except that:

    • Danger Time still seems to have that interaction where it’s best used where others apply the all of the slow so the chrono can take all the dmg utilities (the generic SoE/MoP/disenchanter/x setup); however, dps chronos would not be as hindered since they could just take the other option (chronophantasma) so I’m not overly fussed about this approach. On the other hand, I would actually like to see DT chronos being most effective when they bring their own slow, and have a different rotation and key skills compared to core and chronophantasma (which is practically core anyway with more buttons to press).
    • The Lost Time and Danger Time swap seems like an interesting idea since they appear to go hand-in-hand (could potentially count Delayed Reactions as well since it’s fairly similar). That being said, it would probably be easy to assign traits in the adept/master tier to increase access to/effectiveness of slow, but load all the damage into the the grandmaster tier because w/o further changes, we now have a chrono who has access to both Lost Time and chronophantasma, which might be okay in PvE, but probably isn’t in PvP :astonished:
    • One thing I would further suggest is to remove the dmg from Lost Time and somehow implement it into Danger Time - possibly by dealing dmg for each application of slow rather than each disable. On top of this, there could still be some dmg% increase on slowed enemies, but the main focus of this trait should be attempting to apply slow itself and not have to piggyback on other players (gamemode splits may be required).

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Me Games Ma.8426Me Games Ma.8426 Member ✭✭✭

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    • One thing I would further suggest is to remove the dmg from Lost Time and somehow implement it into Danger Time - possibly by dealing dmg for each application of slow rather than each disable. On top of this, there could still be some dmg% increase on slowed enemies, but the main focus of this trait should be attempting to apply slow itself and not have to piggyback on other players (gamemode splits may be required).

    LOL. While reading through your first 2 points I thought of the exact same solution :D
    I think it is not too bad to have a none damaging Lost Time in the Master Tier that can combined with Chronophantasma if the damage of is placed on slow application.
    Addinionally this could mean and I don't know if this is positive or negative...
    Chronos do actual damage on: Time Warp, Well of Action and with the Phantasmal Avenger in addition to "all CC".

    I like the idea to deal damage on slow rather than damagr on CC but in PvP numbers would habe tp go down big time as slow is much more frequent than CC. In PvE this could actually mean there's an additional build to play which focuses on slow application and damage. I'd love that.

    So what my ideal changes would look like rn is:

    • Lost Time and Danger Time swap places.
    • Lost Time no longer delivers a hit.
    • Lost Time now increases Slow Duration by 20% and still slows for 3s on CC.
    • Danger Time no longer grants Crit Chance and delivers a hit on slow application.
    • Dueling gets some Crit chance baked in.
    • Danger Time gets a 50% damage nerf in PvP as slow application is more frequent.

    Problems:

    • In a raid scenario we'd probably have the support chrono run lost time and danger time as he runs WoAction, Time Warp and Shield and as such he got a lot of slow application. The ideal dps chrono then would take IA and either lost time or chronophantasma depending on slow uptime as Lost Time no longer is a dps increase they'd still be relying on others to apply the slow.
    • Stacking fullzerk quickness chronos for maximum dps and quickness uptime could become a thing as all of them could take WoAction and TW for dps there could once again be a raid meta completely dominated by Power Chronomancers now with quickness for everyone.

    Any ideas how to fix it based on the list of changes I made up?

  • Lunateric.3708Lunateric.3708 Member ✭✭✭

    Whatever they (devs) do to eventually address power Chrono better not be an instinctive, knee-jerk reaction towards the current benchmarks. It's true it's a high number but it's also true the peak of its burst takes so disgustingly long to wind up for a power class that things like DH, soulbeast and Weaver still have the upper hand for shorter phase fights.

    I think your approach on giving the crit chance portion of the trait to core Mesmer is on point, I also think danger time as a whole should emulate what retal traits on the radiance traitline for DH do: benefit for a boon that you are able to readily apply, in this case slow for Chrono should be more readily available in PvE is what I mean.

    I sincerely want them to sensibly balance here, would hate it if they completely gut power Chrono.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @Me Games Ma.8426 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    • One thing I would further suggest is to remove the dmg from Lost Time and somehow implement it into Danger Time - possibly by dealing dmg for each application of slow rather than each disable. On top of this, there could still be some dmg% increase on slowed enemies, but the main focus of this trait should be attempting to apply slow itself and not have to piggyback on other players (gamemode splits may be required).


    LOL. While reading through your first 2 points I thought of the exact same solution :D
    I think it is not too bad to have a none damaging Lost Time in the Master Tier that can combined with Chronophantasma if the damage of is placed on slow application.
    Addinionally this could mean and I don't know if this is positive or negative...
    Chronos do actual damage on: Time Warp, Well of Action and with the Phantasmal Avenger in addition to "all CC".

    I like the idea to deal damage on slow rather than damagr on CC but in PvP numbers would habe tp go down big time as slow is much more frequent than CC. In PvE this could actually mean there's an additional build to play which focuses on slow application and damage. I'd love that.

    So what my ideal changes would look like rn is:

    • Lost Time and Danger Time swap places.
    • Lost Time no longer delivers a hit.
    • Lost Time now increases Slow Duration by 20% and still slows for 3s on CC.
    • Danger Time no longer grants Crit Chance and delivers a hit on slow application.
    • Dueling gets some Crit chance baked in.
    • Danger Time gets a 50% damage nerf in PvP as slow application is more frequent.

    Problems:

    • In a raid scenario we'd probably have the support chrono run lost time and danger time as he runs WoAction, Time Warp and Shield and as such he got a lot of slow application. The ideal dps chrono then would take IA and either lost time or chronophantasma depending on slow uptime as Lost Time no longer is a dps increase they'd still be relying on others to apply the slow.
    • Stacking fullzerk quickness chronos for maximum dps and quickness uptime could become a thing as all of them could take WoAction and TW for dps there could once again be a raid meta completely dominated by Power Chronomancers now with quickness for everyone.

    Any ideas how to fix it based on the list of changes I made up?

    Where is slow much more common than CC in PvP? There is arcane thievery (1 slow), time warp (which isn't used) and well (3 slows). And then shield phantasm (1 slow). Anything I am missing?

    // Yanim

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019

    @Me Games Ma.8426 said:
    Stacking fullzerk quickness chronos for maximum dps and quickness uptime could become a thing as all of them could take WoAction and TW for dps there could once again be a raid meta completely dominated by Power Chronomancers now with quickness for everyone.

    In practice guard and ren are theoretically capable of something similar, organise 5 fb’s with Potent Haste, or 6 guards to run FMW! and there’s perma quickness (if only we had the PvP variant, then we’d only need 4 :cry:) or 4+ renegades to spam Orders from Above off CD for perma alacrity, so 5 DT chronos for perma quickness shouldn’t be that different. Even then, if the DT dps chronos are playing their spec right (according to suggested changes) their WoAs and TWs should theoretically align with each other, wasting some uptime since you can only stack 5 durations of quickness at a time. Additionally, with consideration that the alteration to DT should place pchrono back at 32-34k max, there’s really no need for concern since the pchrono raid team meme only existed since DT chrono previously had 40-42k dps, which got cut back to 35-37k; a number that is still higher than majority of other dps options. As soon as it drops below ~34k, it shouldn’t really be an issue anymore.

    The issue that I’m encountering the most with this new DT approach however, is that w/o fairly significant buffs to the ‘hit’ on slow or slow application, DT chrono is still very similar to core/chronophantasma with the SoE/MoP/disenchanter/x setup, with WoA instead of defender or Mirror Images in the ‘x’ slot. Even Gravity Well is still a better pick than TW. Of course, it would be very simple to buff the numbers of the ‘hit’ component, but the current skills with slow/CC would still have trouble competing with MoP or the SoE/disenchanter combo.

    Another suggestion from my bizarre bank of ideas:

    One of the traits is changed to make ethereal fields inflict 1s slow per second on opponents standing in them. However, paired with DT/LT, this may result in range of uncalculated consequences, e.g.

    • TW becomes a killer, proc’ing that ‘hit’ 15 times
    • The ‘other’ wells (excluding heal) become possible replacements for dps utilities. WoA becomes even more dangerous
    • Ethereal fields from other skills become dps skills - i.e Null Field, Feedback (that PvP CD split again...), Chaos Storm... Tides deals even more dmg now with even more slow
    • So basically I’ve created a WvW bomb and or area denial spec for chrono (a.k.a Scourge Mk II) by accident... nerfs are most likely required at this point

    This ^ is probably why I shouldn’t be allowed to brainstorm possible ideas.

    @Lunateric.3708 said:
    Whatever they (devs) do to eventually address power Chrono better not be an instinctive, knee-jerk reaction towards the current benchmarks. It's true it's a high number but it's also true the peak of its burst takes so disgustingly long to wind up for a power class that things like DH, soulbeast and Weaver still have the upper hand for shorter phase fights.

    I think your approach on giving the crit chance portion of the trait to core Mesmer is on point, I also think danger time as a whole should emulate what retal traits on the radiance traitline for DH do: benefit for a boon that you are able to readily apply, in this case slow for Chrono should be more readily available in PvE is what I mean.

    I sincerely want them to sensibly balance here, would hate it if they completely gut power Chrono.

    Before I was quite distracted by the Danger Time changes that @Me Games Ma.8426 proposed, I was intending to leave chrono at a very decent 33k, and to somehow make core mesmer more suitable in shorter phase fights since it doesn’t have to spend as much time casting phantasms, and isn’t as reliant of them. Alternatively, this new DT chrono may be the answer that we may be seeking for, although it wasn’t really part of my original idea.

    My biggest gripe about the trait isn’t [only] about the overall power of trait, but more about how the chrono contributes effectively nothing or very little (at a cost of CC) to the slow uptime required for such a massive dmg increase in PvE.

    The main change I am looking at is transferring some of the potency of Danger Time into a core traitline that dps power builds are most likely to use, but also to alleviate the amount of additional precision [that] any power mesmer has to gear...

    EDIT: Markdown wasn’t being nice to me...

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • Me Games Ma.8426Me Games Ma.8426 Member ✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Me Games Ma.8426 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:

    • One thing I would further suggest is to remove the dmg from Lost Time and somehow implement it into Danger Time - possibly by dealing dmg for each application of slow rather than each disable. On top of this, there could still be some dmg% increase on slowed enemies, but the main focus of this trait should be attempting to apply slow itself and not have to piggyback on other players (gamemode splits may be required).


    LOL. While reading through your first 2 points I thought of the exact same solution :D
    I think it is not too bad to have a none damaging Lost Time in the Master Tier that can combined with Chronophantasma if the damage of is placed on slow application.
    Addinionally this could mean and I don't know if this is positive or negative...
    Chronos do actual damage on: Time Warp, Well of Action and with the Phantasmal Avenger in addition to "all CC".

    I like the idea to deal damage on slow rather than damagr on CC but in PvP numbers would habe tp go down big time as slow is much more frequent than CC. In PvE this could actually mean there's an additional build to play which focuses on slow application and damage. I'd love that.

    So what my ideal changes would look like rn is:

    • Lost Time and Danger Time swap places.
    • Lost Time no longer delivers a hit.
    • Lost Time now increases Slow Duration by 20% and still slows for 3s on CC.
    • Danger Time no longer grants Crit Chance and delivers a hit on slow application.
    • Dueling gets some Crit chance baked in.
    • Danger Time gets a 50% damage nerf in PvP as slow application is more frequent.

    Problems:

    • In a raid scenario we'd probably have the support chrono run lost time and danger time as he runs WoAction, Time Warp and Shield and as such he got a lot of slow application. The ideal dps chrono then would take IA and either lost time or chronophantasma depending on slow uptime as Lost Time no longer is a dps increase they'd still be relying on others to apply the slow.
    • Stacking fullzerk quickness chronos for maximum dps and quickness uptime could become a thing as all of them could take WoAction and TW for dps there could once again be a raid meta completely dominated by Power Chronomancers now with quickness for everyone.

    Any ideas how to fix it based on the list of changes I made up?

    Where is slow much more common than CC in PvP? There is arcane thievery (1 slow), time warp (which isn't used) and well (3 slows). And then shield phantasm (1 slow). Anything I am missing?

    Slow on CC Slow on interrupt (which alone is 2 triggers in potentially 1 hit). Slow on Shield 4, Slow on Well and TW and on Arcane Thievery ofc.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    This is actually my main point I * should * be really dancing around.

    My biggest gripe about the trait isn’t [only] about the overall power of trait, but more about how the chrono contributes effectively nothing or very little (at a cost of CC) to the slow uptime required for such a massive dmg increase (at least in high end PvE).

    IMO, chronophantasma isn’t actually all that bad; it’s the combination of Csplit + Chronophantasma that creates the main distinction between core and chrono, since it provides burst for a class that doesn’t already have noticeable one. The chrono gets to do its ‘superburst’ twice in its meta benchmark, which inflates its dps in a way; what we don’t see is that core mes has actually a similar sustained dps vs IA chrono via a higher dmg per hit basis, since it is able to use flat dmg% mods from Domi/Illu. Chronophantasma is not the same as a generic dmg% mod - the damage is spread out, which makes chrono quite inefficient at dealing with enemies that go down quickly and or switching targets, due to how more reliant chrono is at building up dps through phantasms. Chronophantasma w/o any other dmg trait doesn’t make it much more stronger than core aside from the ‘burst’ (which actually comes from Csplit), thus my prior suggestion to allow chrono for ONE dmg trait only (located all at grandmaster tier).

    Danger Time adds a massive insult to injury since I’ve explained it’s practically a flat out ~20% increase in dps, completely defeating the advantage of having the third core traitline. This means the replacement traitline that core drops for chrono has to have an equal overall +20% dmg increase simply because of this trait. In fact, all three traitlines that that core takes would actually have to give ~20% dmg just to compete with the current version Danger Time.

    The main change I am looking at is transferring some of the potency of Danger Time into a core traitline that dps power builds are most likely to use, but also to alleviate the amount of additional precision any power mesmer has to gear since core does not have any access to additional crit chance% enhancing traits or skills (where every other profession has at least one). The precision famine is becoming so bad that mes has to take nearly full assassin gear, or assassin gear on top of thief runes. I don’t mean to completely delete Danger Time as of yet, but I would say that it absolutely cannot coexist with chronophantasma, and I would personally give Danger Time the boot since it increases dmg almost the same way every other traitline does, making chrono ‘a mesmer that deals the same dmg, now with Csplit.’

    Although I guess I could be okay with DPS Chrono(with slow) > DPS Mesmer > DPS Chrono (without slow), I proposed in another thread that I’d rather prefer DPS Chrono (uses Csplit effectively) > DPS Mesmer > DPS Chrono (who stuffs up or ignores Csplit), while also giving mes specific scenarios where it just trumps the chrono (practically any fight that isn’t a golem boss fight). Chrono gives you the tools to be a better mesmer, but if you don’t/can’t use it properly, you’re better off using core.

    If you want to keep Danger Time:

    This trait will always suffer from the fact how slow uptime is either not very acessible, or possibly too accessible (e.g. in a raid scenario). In order to address this, chrono needs natural access to slow, or the conditions needs to be more lenient, e.g. apply boon/condition or deal x% increased dmg when you are ‘faster’ than your opponent (quickness > normal > slow); but its effectiveness needs to decrease to compensate for the increased accessibility.

    Basically, it can’t be broken stupid at max potential (where you don’t even provide any slow), and it can’t be total garbage at minimal potential. It needs to have more of a middle line, in other words.

    I disagree, DT damage modifier is well where it is currently at. You are forgetting a core factor in your analysis which is the current choice which boon Chronomancer have to take. DT or IA (Improved Aalacrity) if such a massive damage modifier becomes accessible in the chrono core specialisation, boon Chronomancer damage will be too busted, and they will end up nerfing something else.

    While I would love for boon chrono to do more damage i still like the trade off which you have to choose from in order to run a more damage oriented builds.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:

    @Noodle Ant.1605 said:
    This is actually my main point I * should * be really dancing around.

    My biggest gripe about the trait isn’t [only] about the overall power of trait, but more about how the chrono contributes effectively nothing or very little (at a cost of CC) to the slow uptime required for such a massive dmg increase (at least in high end PvE).

    IMO, chronophantasma isn’t actually all that bad; it’s the combination of Csplit + Chronophantasma that creates the main distinction between core and chrono, since it provides burst for a class that doesn’t already have noticeable one. The chrono gets to do its ‘superburst’ twice in its meta benchmark, which inflates its dps in a way; what we don’t see is that core mes has actually a similar sustained dps vs IA chrono via a higher dmg per hit basis, since it is able to use flat dmg% mods from Domi/Illu. Chronophantasma is not the same as a generic dmg% mod - the damage is spread out, which makes chrono quite inefficient at dealing with enemies that go down quickly and or switching targets, due to how more reliant chrono is at building up dps through phantasms. Chronophantasma w/o any other dmg trait doesn’t make it much more stronger than core aside from the ‘burst’ (which actually comes from Csplit), thus my prior suggestion to allow chrono for ONE dmg trait only (located all at grandmaster tier).

    Danger Time adds a massive insult to injury since I’ve explained it’s practically a flat out ~20% increase in dps, completely defeating the advantage of having the third core traitline. This means the replacement traitline that core drops for chrono has to have an equal overall +20% dmg increase simply because of this trait. In fact, all three traitlines that that core takes would actually have to give ~20% dmg just to compete with the current version Danger Time.

    The main change I am looking at is transferring some of the potency of Danger Time into a core traitline that dps power builds are most likely to use, but also to alleviate the amount of additional precision any power mesmer has to gear since core does not have any access to additional crit chance% enhancing traits or skills (where every other profession has at least one). The precision famine is becoming so bad that mes has to take nearly full assassin gear, or assassin gear on top of thief runes. I don’t mean to completely delete Danger Time as of yet, but I would say that it absolutely cannot coexist with chronophantasma, and I would personally give Danger Time the boot since it increases dmg almost the same way every other traitline does, making chrono ‘a mesmer that deals the same dmg, now with Csplit.’

    Although I guess I could be okay with DPS Chrono(with slow) > DPS Mesmer > DPS Chrono (without slow), I proposed in another thread that I’d rather prefer DPS Chrono (uses Csplit effectively) > DPS Mesmer > DPS Chrono (who stuffs up or ignores Csplit), while also giving mes specific scenarios where it just trumps the chrono (practically any fight that isn’t a golem boss fight). Chrono gives you the tools to be a better mesmer, but if you don’t/can’t use it properly, you’re better off using core.

    If you want to keep Danger Time:

    This trait will always suffer from the fact how slow uptime is either not very acessible, or possibly too accessible (e.g. in a raid scenario). In order to address this, chrono needs natural access to slow, or the conditions needs to be more lenient, e.g. apply boon/condition or deal x% increased dmg when you are ‘faster’ than your opponent (quickness > normal > slow); but its effectiveness needs to decrease to compensate for the increased accessibility.

    Basically, it can’t be broken stupid at max potential (where you don’t even provide any slow), and it can’t be total garbage at minimal potential. It needs to have more of a middle line, in other words.

    I disagree, DT damage modifier is well where it is currently at. You are forgetting a core factor in your analysis which is the current choice which boon Chronomancer have to take. DT or IA (Improved Aalacrity) if such a massive damage modifier becomes accessible in the chrono core specialisation, boon Chronomancer damage will be too busted, and they will end up nerfing something else.

    While I would love for boon chrono to do more damage i still like the trade off which you have to choose from in order to run a more damage oriented builds.

    Whilst I do understand the point which you are coming from, I would appreciate some performance numbers (even if they are super-rough) to gauge the impact of the change I am proposing. Whilst anyone could say, 'boon chrono will be buffed so it might not work,' I'd rather see if the buff does actually bring it overboard, and then identify and maybe propose solutions to problems highlighted.

    I don't play boon/support chrono, so I can't really gauge the dmg output of the build myself. If rough figures are needed, I would consider 'bustedness' as the current boon chrono surpassing 25k while doing their support rotation with all of SoI, WoA and WoR/mimic and maintaining ~60%+ boon uptime, if a 8-10% dmg increase were added. The dmg increase also varies depending on how much assassin pieces you replace, otherwise it becomes a reliability thing since increasing crit chance doesn't theoretically increase max dps; it just becomes more reliable.

    If the dmg does become too problematic, then I could list reasons why this might be happening and suggest further ideas for changes, but I'll leave that until later.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2019

    Sure, I'm not so great at theory crafting but currently Chrono rotation goes like this. First of, Alacrity reduce the recharge time of your skills by 25%. Improve alacrity by 50%.
    Per 74-77s CS you are able to cast "x" times the following spells:

    With Improved Alacrity (With Danger Time)
    ToT: 4 --> (3)
    WoR: 5 --> (4)
    WoA: 5 --> (4)
    TW: 1 --> (1) time warp is not affected
    SoI: 6 --> (5)

    CS = 70 (with IA) 84 (with DT) ---> 84/70 = 1.2 so you technically divide everything by 20% which is how I got the numbers above. So technically you need to be able to provide much more quickness/alacrity to your party, which transforms into a massive trade off, or you need to be really sure what you are doing, + you really need to make sure that people won't miss a well or a ToT, as the numbers listed above are nowhere near realistic since you'd expect people to miss wells or ToT (for realistic numbers, you can safely remove 1 except for TW). So truly you'd only run DT on Golem bosses, such as Mursaat Overseer, Sabetha. You can also run it on other bosses, potentially VG, KC but it's harder as you'd need to know exactly what's happening (mostly how long each phase is going to be, and minimise the amount of wells that your team may miss). So you wouldn't run it in PUG.

    Also you have ways to cheese it, like maybe only 1 Chrono run DT, while the other one run extremely high boon duration with IA so that you can run it safely with low boon duration. Or, you could run it safely every time with extremely high boon duration and Inspiration/Duelling builds on both Chrono but that would defeat the purpose of running it IMO. So overall you're still getting a massive trade off from it.

    Which is why I think it's important that those stats stays like that.

    But in term of dps numbers on MO with IA as low BD Chrono you can do 18-20k dps, with DT you can potentially do 25-27k or even more. I've never seen 27k dps on boon Chrono, but I've heard people said that they saw it. However I'm not sure how legit was the kill. Technically depending on the length of the fight 1 Chrono is enough to upkeep 100% Quickness. So the 2nd Chrono might have just role-played as boon chrono and was actually full DPS chrono with only TW.

    Edit:

    So I actually went and did the math of DT vs. IA for boon chrono.

    Duo Chrono Duel/Insp
    CS: 91s (DT) vs. 77s (IA)
    36% boon duration (DT) vs. 15% boon duration (IA)

    Duo Chrono Duel/Illu
    CS: 78.4s (DT) vs. 66.5s (IA)
    96% boon duration (DT) vs. 66% boon duration (IA)

    Those are perfect rotation (-1 SoI and -1 ToT; you can never get the first SoI on your team, and 1 ToT miss is about right), with 1s of error margin and 3 clone continuum split as reference. In the event that you delay your rota by 2s you need 99% boon duration. If your team miss 1 well that's it too.

    Yes, DT is a massive trade off, and it's a good thing.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2019

    Ahh yes... the raiding scene where players are usually blessed with a duo chrono setup. I must apologise since I initially wasn’t aiming to look very far into raids. This was from my original post :lol: :

    where dps chronos in non-raid conditions

    I don’t think it needs to made any clearer that the more offensive version of boon chrono falls flat outside of this environment since it kinda has to supply the two important boons solo. However, it exists and has to be considered.

    I was gonna discuss boon chrono dps before, but after scrounging around in the forum earlier, I ended up finding what I was gonna say in some thread about ‘chronos running 1551 toughness’ (forgot how to link sry :smile:). It is outlined that boon chrono currently has the worst dps out of the dps support options, who sit at ~22k-26k. Although, I’m not sure whether 26k quickbrand and 22k alacrigade can 100% uptime their respective boons, tacking on 10% to 18-20k (numbers given) puts IA boon chrono in that range, which seems fine IMO. Considering how much offensive gear it runs, this really isn’t unreasonable; it’d also be unusual for anet to explode over 22-23k since they consciously decided to add diviner/offensive support gear stats themselves.

    Of course boon chronos would still want to run DT where possible in optimal situations to achieve higher dps, but this is still stuck at 27k (as given) where, coming back to my original post, requires raid-like conditions @ 100% slow uptime (which by design of a duo chrono comp is annoyingly already met). I hope these numbers aren’t defective by things like dropping alacrity or WoR for Disenchanter, because by then we’re considering a more offensive chrono build where it should get to do higher dps, and golem bosses shouldn’t really change that fact.

    If you still disagree with the DT dmg transfer, there’s still another main point I raised in this thread that requires addressing. The first point I made, as you know was:

    Danger Time is too strong for a single trait (especially as a master tier trait that can then be paired with Chronophantasma). This was addressed by proposing a potency split, transferring the much needed crit chance to a much more accessible and universal core traitline.

    The other one was:

    Danger Time works best when the chrono themselves do not contribute any slow since it loses dps when building for slow. This requires 2 other players playing specific builds (unless already a boon chrono going for highest dps). I have not pushed for any solutions for this yet.

    I can see why the trade off might look cool and all, but I personally really don’t like having a massive chunk of my dps potential dictated by whether I have enough allies that can spare themselves to run slow just for me. The change in its current form just makes that chunk smaller, whilst also bringing core (and consequently power mirage too) up as a side bonus. Yes, IA boon chrono will see a ~2k golem dps increase and the trade off for taking DT smaller; apart from PvP, this is probably the only PvE issue that would arise. Regardless, both parties will still take DT when aiming for the highest numbers, which currently is fairly restricted to raids anyway, where specialised situations and somewhat guaranteed comps exist.

    It would also appear that the firebrigade is slowly surpassing the chrono duo comp, which will hurt DT builds since slow can’t be guaranteed, so maintaining boon chrono’s status quo might actually work both ways :tongue:.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would love for core Mesmer to be more viable. I think the OP had some good suggestions. I would also buff empowered illusions from 15% to 35% (PvE only).

    I think nerfing damage output of chrono in favor of buffing core is a great idea.

  • Lunateric.3708Lunateric.3708 Member ✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    I would love for core Mesmer to be more viable. I think the OP had some good suggestions. I would also buff empowered illusions from 15% to 35% (PvE only).

    I think nerfing damage output of chrono in favor of buffing core is a great idea.

    making core mesmer the go-to power DPS build is very interesting. They would have to nuke Chrono's DPS and then heavily buff core traitlines though and I find it difficult to believe they can do that sensibly.

    As it stands core mesmer's DPS is pitiful low and Chronophantasma+Danger Time is a giant chunk of your damage.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lunateric.3708 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    I would love for core Mesmer to be more viable. I think the OP had some good suggestions. I would also buff empowered illusions from 15% to 35% (PvE only).

    I think nerfing damage output of chrono in favor of buffing core is a great idea.

    making core mesmer the go-to power DPS build is very interesting. They would have to nuke Chrono's DPS and then heavily buff core traitlines though and I find it difficult to believe they can do that sensibly.

    As it stands core mesmer's DPS is pitiful low and Chronophantasma+Danger Time is a giant chunk of your damage.

    Core being the go to power dps, I do not think so. But being within 5-10% of chrono’s performance should be reasonable.

  • Noodle Ant.1605Noodle Ant.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    In the latest patch, Anet adds more reliance on slow by reworking Mind Wrack into Split Second, and then tries to justify by reworking Diversion into Timesink.

    But what’s the point of casting Timesink when you’ve wasted x clones you could’ve Split Second’ed instead?

    Apart from possibly stacking 15s of slow on one opponent at once in PvP using Lost Time, Timesink unfortunately fails to address the issues raised in this thread, and Split Second only adds further insult to injury.

    pChrono (main), cWeaver and pReaper. An asura who likes snowflakes.

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