Fair Balancing?

[Eudaimonia.8695]

Reduce the damage increase of sic 'em by half when you're melding with your pet (still 40% when used outside of beastmode) and reduce the cooldown by 5-10 seconds. PvP and WvW only.

ez fix

[Burnfall.9573]

@Hitman.5829 said:

@Shining One.1635 said:

@Hitman.5829 said:Range classes should hit harder than melee classes.I think it should be: Melee Single Target > Ranged Single Target > Melee Area > Ranged AreaSo, yes: Ranger single target shots should hit harder than melee attacks that can hit multiple people.

Unfortunately that is not the case with this game. Warrior single targets skills are one of the worst damage dealers in the game. And skills that hit multiple targets deal high damage. Only god knows that is going on when they implement nerfs and buffs. I am guessing they do it based on the class they play. If a dev is a main mesmer, then he/she will change things based on his experiences that is my guess.

For the past 6 years; Thief is the perfect example to this

[Aeolus.3615]

@Etterwyn.5263 said:It's not news that Ranger needs some adjustments. Who knows when or how it will happen though. :-1:

Most rangers are extremely bad players, class needs to overperformance and be OP so they call it balanced....

[Burnfall.9573]

@Caedmon.6798 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@spectrito.8513 said:

@"Mokk.2397" said:What armor do you have on,because just looking at that damage I know your running glass .Was the ranger in question externally booned up ?So throwing up a bunch of combat damage up is just testimonial BS that doesn't prove anything .Show us your armor stats and prove with the combat math that is provided .This is just more single sided BS that's completely biased with purely circumstantial evidence.The ranger is fine the way it is .People are just mad because it upsets their precious Meta.Ranger /Soulbeast running LB is power damage .Dump your Glass Meta build and put some armor on .I have Minstrels on with scholar runes and never get hit like that from any ranger or soulbeast .Your argument is empty and unfounded.

If you can defend this BS after watching this idk what to tell you

Any class can do this one shot bullcrap....

even ele can do that

, seen videos of @Cellofrag hitting people for 20k churning earth, stop talking about balance using these kind of videos

Is this fair balancing?

This thread is about ranger bud. So showing off a vid from a ranger doing absurd damage on a build thats not being touched for months is exactly what this is about while berserk gets insta nerfed by 25% cus the damage was too high and people complained about it ( And i agreed with it,eventhough this is my main ) .Also not "any" class is able to one shot for 20k - 30k with One skill.

Eventhough u name the mesm spike as oneshot,its not.Its a combo of several skills being used in succesion on mesmer while thats not the case for ranger where the damage is being done with One skill after being buffed up,thats a difference.

Wrong; the Op never said so nor specify it. Once again; this thread is about Fair Balancing--Not 'Ranger Fair Balancing' and is neither under Ranger subforum.

Caedmon you and I know better than this--The Truth>>Anet does not care about Fair Balancing because if they did; Toxicity would've been minimized into non existence and Healthy Competition would've been prevalence

(We did not create this monster- they did)

(have a good day)

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

I would like to make a simple statement.

Because other classes/builds also have over performing aspects does not mean sic'em SB doesn't have a problem. It means they all need to be toned down.

I find middle of the road SB far harder to deal with that the 1-shot builds, however, I also do not think that sort of spike should be doable, it makes the game toxic. And yes, there has been power creep across the board with few exceptions and needs to be looked at, however again, that does not, by default make sic'em SB acceptable.

[Safandula.8723]

@Hitman.5829 said:

@Shining One.1635 said:

@Hitman.5829 said:Range classes should hit harder than melee classes.I think it should be: Melee Single Target > Ranged Single Target > Melee Area > Ranged AreaSo, yes: Ranger single target shots should hit harder than melee attacks that can hit multiple people.

Unfortunately that is not the case with this game. Warrior single targets skills are one of the worst damage dealers in the game. And skills that hit multiple targets deal high damage. Only god knows that is going on when they implement nerfs and buffs. I am guessing they do it based on the class they play. If a dev is a main mesmer, then he/she will change things based on his experiences that is my guess.

U mean eviscerate?

[SoV.5139]

This is what the forum warriors lobbied in when they shouted down the bunker meta we used to have, which actually required some skill and produced far more long fights where people had to play their class.

Nowdays the flow chart is:Did you get the drop on your opponent?Yes: You win!No: You lose!

What'd we learn? Be careful what you ask for. You might get it, then complain harder than you did when shouting down a previous meta as lacking skill.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Auburner.6945 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@Auburner.6945 said:The problem is not Rapidfire or GS skills, they are easily predictable/dodge-able. I got hit by auto attacks, 7k each, and the ranger could've had their auto-targeting up to make it even more challenging to land such high skill based auto attack from 1800 range. Just remove the damage increase based on range (it even defies physics), make them all as the lowest value of the three. Also, fix the damage modifiers, the base value of the auto attack and the co-efficient are almost the same as any other weapon, yet on SB with a 1800 range, it seems to hit the hardest.

Even still, if a ranger Auto-attack hits an average target in WvW; an average target runs some level of toughness. Most meta-comps run high levels of toughness. The auto-attack doesn't even crack 1500 damage. This is far from overpowered. We can't base how OP a class is based on them hitting people with little to no defense.

Here is a calculation showing that the damage is still high even vs players that build Toughness. An Elementalist has 1000 Toughness which is 1888 Armor. And Elementalist with 600 more Toughness will have 2500+ Armor.

Let's calcualte the skill's damage first of a SB on Full Marauder with Beastmastery and Wilderness Survival, and in beast mode (this example has no runes/sigils included still as not all will run Scholar/Pack for more damage): Skill damage = (Weapon strength

Power

Skill Co-eff.) = (1000

2500

0.9) = 2.25M, this number will come in handy below

Now let's calculate the damage this skill will do with modifiers and on crit: Modified damage = (Skill damage

Positive modifiers)/(Target's Armor

Negative modifiers) = (2.25M

1.1 "loud whistle"

1.07 "furious strength"

1.1 "oppressive superiority

2.2 "ferocity" * 1.4 "sic'em")/2500 = 3600 damage. That's 3600 damage vs a target that has wasted 600+ potential stats into Toughness to take 3600 from 1800 range at the start of a duel. Let alone that this 3600 was made if the SB has no runes or sigils equipped, and no boons but Fury, so imagine the damage with Might and offensive runes/sigils.

And not everyone runs Toughness as that of a full misntrel support. This gets even worse when a SB runs Marksmanship with Piercing and picks you in the middle of a zerg while they are at the roof, in this case, your support has nothing to do to save you, and this is one of the reasons why pin-sniping a commander exists... I would rather a cancerous pirate ship than this.

Now this is made even worse that the SB is not made of paper but can still survive and actually has the meta build on already, so it's not a d**keye that once the gap is closed is dead.

I sincerely wonder how can an ele complain about a ranger, hands down the easiest class to kill after guardian....I swear to god I am not trying to belittle you but..out of all professions you complain about a glass ranger that even a scrapping tempest can kill with reflects...I mean seriously man unless you're facing ROM or Boyce or Kiritsu..or any above average ranger ( who are quite few me not included) , killing a ranger with an ele should be a walk in the park...literally.

You talk about ranger when you as ele must face builds like holosmiths who sport a glass cannon dmg accompanied by ridiculous amounts of CC all the while having the sustain of an old celestial d/d ele...or a mirage and all its builds variations with all including distortion/stealth/teleports/condi spam......or a herald going around with perma 25 might, teleporting through walls critting you for 9k+ with their off hand sword regardless of your toughness...or a warrior..well you know well how tought it is...or a thief who can hit and teleport back at 1200 range non stop....

How can you possibly complain about rangers in this current balance?....Where do you see this ranger menace?....Do you play wvw by any chance? Because if you ..you know that the map is littered with unkillable holosmith, dashing spellbreakers, one shot mirage/chronos , s/d thieves for days ....but rarely these unicorn ranger builds spotted rarely and if you don't wvw then look at PvP, there are no rangers in the AT finals or before.....

S

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@"SoV.5139" said:This is what the forum warriors lobbied in when they shouted down the bunker meta we used to have, which actually required some skill and produced far more long fights where people had to play their class.

Nowdays the flow chart is:Did you get the drop on your opponent?Yes: You win!No: You lose!

What'd we learn? Be careful what you ask for. You might get it, then complain harder than you did when shouting down a previous meta as lacking skill.

Both are not healthy.

Also, we do still have bunker builds, far greater than before as well. Many of which can not be killed without a very glassy build or +1. The problem is these two feed off each other to the point you have inverted the bell curve, that fewer people are running middle of the road builds and more people going to the extreme ends of bunker/support or pure spike builds. If you run any of the more "normal" builds, you will never kill the bunker, granted they will probably never kill you either, it just becomes annoying or you will be in range of a single spike rotation from a DPS build. Though I will say I would rather deal with the pure spike builds than some of the pure bunker builds with few exceptions.

Also, the bunker builds didn't require anymore skill (with some exceptions), many had/have pretty simple and well known rotations that you stick to and you will be just fine unless +1ed.

Part of the problem is that some of the spike builds have very high skill ceilings to pull off at all and survive. Others have very low skill floors, meaning the skill level to pull off with some success is very low, and +1ing can be blindfolded. The skill ceiling however also tends to be a bit lower as well in that on the upper end 1vs1 duels they don't perform very well.

[Mokk.2397]

I cant spend more time on this for i have to go to work . But your still substituting your own numbers. Agreed I did not include accessories on the ranger or the pet but with full basic toughness on an elementalist the armor comes to 3208 and not 2500. your also miscalculating Critical damage.Average damage = Base damage ( 1 + Critical Chance ( Critical Damage - 1 ) ) so the multiplier is 1.2 and not 2.2 . So rapid fire based on your numbers that have been adjusted correctly assuming that every single shot Critically Hits (which it probably won't) for rapid fire should be and I'll even give your the 2500 armor instead of the full toughness armor of 3208 the damage per hit is 816 not 1500 + . A single shot from Long Range Shot is still around 1800 -1900 not the projected 3500 .That's of course assuming that your ele just stands there dumb and does nothing .So what ever the combat damage you pulled up there is from it doesn't reflect the Math with the variables given.

[Auburner.6945]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Auburner.6945 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@Auburner.6945 said:The problem is not Rapidfire or GS skills, they are easily predictable/dodge-able. I got hit by auto attacks, 7k each, and the ranger could've had their auto-targeting up to make it even more challenging to land such high skill based auto attack from 1800 range. Just remove the damage increase based on range (it even defies physics), make them all as the lowest value of the three. Also, fix the damage modifiers, the base value of the auto attack and the co-efficient are almost the same as any other weapon, yet on SB with a 1800 range, it seems to hit the hardest.

Even still, if a ranger Auto-attack hits an average target in WvW; an average target runs some level of toughness. Most meta-comps run high levels of toughness. The auto-attack doesn't even crack 1500 damage. This is far from overpowered. We can't base how OP a class is based on them hitting people with little to no defense.

Here is a calculation showing that the damage is still high even vs players that build Toughness. An Elementalist has 1000 Toughness which is 1888 Armor. And Elementalist with 600 more Toughness will have 2500+ Armor.

Let's calcualte the skill's damage first of a SB on Full Marauder with Beastmastery and Wilderness Survival, and in beast mode (this example has no runes/sigils included still as not all will run Scholar/Pack for more damage): Skill damage = (Weapon strength

Power

Skill Co-eff.) = (1000

2500

0.9) = 2.25M, this number will come in handy below

Now let's calculate the damage this skill will do with modifiers and on crit: Modified damage = (Skill damage

Positive modifiers)/(Target's Armor

Negative modifiers) = (2.25M

1.1 "loud whistle"

1.07 "furious strength"

1.1 "oppressive superiority

2.2 "ferocity" * 1.4 "sic'em")/2500 = 3600 damage. That's 3600 damage vs a target that has wasted 600+ potential stats into Toughness to take 3600 from 1800 range at the start of a duel. Let alone that this 3600 was made if the SB has no runes or sigils equipped, and no boons but Fury, so imagine the damage with Might and offensive runes/sigils.

And not everyone runs Toughness as that of a full misntrel support. This gets even worse when a SB runs Marksmanship with Piercing and picks you in the middle of a zerg while they are at the roof, in this case, your support has nothing to do to save you, and this is one of the reasons why pin-sniping a commander exists... I would rather a cancerous pirate ship than this.

Now this is made even worse that the SB is not made of paper but can still survive and actually has the meta build on already, so it's not a d**keye that once the gap is closed is dead.

I sincerely wonder

how can an ele complain about a ranger

, hands down the easiest class to kill after guardian....I swear to god I am not trying to belittle you but..

out of all professions you complain about a glass ranger

that even a scrapping tempest can kill with reflects...I mean seriously man unless you're facing ROM or Boyce or Kiritsu..or any above average ranger ( who are quite few me not included) , killing a ranger with an ele should be a walk in the park...literally.

You talk about ranger when you as ele must face builds like holosmiths who sport a glass cannon dmg accompanied by ridiculous amounts of CC all the while having the sustain of an old celestial d/d ele...or a mirage and all its builds variations with all including distortion/stealth/teleports/condi spam......or a herald going around with perma 25 might, teleporting through walls critting you for 9k+ with their off hand sword regardless of your toughness...or a warrior..well you know well how tought it is...or a thief who can hit and teleport back at 1200 range non stop....

How can you possibly complain about rangers in this current balance?....Where do you see this ranger menace?....Do you play wvw by any chance? Because if you ..you know that the map is littered with unkillable holosmith, dashing spellbreakers, one shot mirage/chronos , s/d thieves for days ....but rarely these unicorn ranger builds spotted rarely and if you don't wvw then look at PvP, there are no rangers in the AT finals or before.....

S

I got hit on purpose by a SlB to prove a point. I don't face troubles as a roamer, but as a Staff backline I get pinned down by 2 auto attacks. Now we shouldn't just think of what Ele can do and can't do, but let's remember what we need to run as Ele to survive, yet that's not my point... a class that can 100-0 from 1800 range should never be left unharmed. Yeah Holo is disgusting and you can't kill a good one, one shot Mesmers are even worse than SlB, D/P thief that you cry your 130 range can land a skill on, a SpB that is a dead end, and many more, but they don't do that from only auto attacks. Auto attacks are the problem and the lack of risk. For Tournaments, a tournament comp differs than that of a Solo one, but what is more common of the two? It's like LoL, you watch the LCS with comps you will never run in Solo Q because they won't work, even pro players call some champions garbage in Solo Q but they work miracles in tournaments. So the idea of AT is invalid, Solo Q is the measurement unless there is a huge e-sport push that would require thinking on both sides, but is there?

I am aware of other builds, but 1800 range and 7k shouldn't exist on the same build.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@Safandula.8723 said:

@Hitman.5829 said:

@Shining One.1635 said:

@Hitman.5829 said:Range classes should hit harder than melee classes.I think it should be: Melee Single Target > Ranged Single Target > Melee Area > Ranged AreaSo, yes: Ranger single target shots should hit harder than melee attacks that can hit multiple people.

Unfortunately that is not the case with this game. Warrior single targets skills are one of the worst damage dealers in the game. And skills that hit multiple targets deal high damage. Only god knows that is going on when they implement nerfs and buffs. I am guessing they do it based on the class they play. If a dev is a main mesmer, then he/she will change things based on his experiences that is my guess.

U mean eviscerate?

Core warrior, cyclone axe vs another warrior 2x 3k .. 4k vs thief/mesmer/power necro.

Axe aa chain, triple chop 2.5k.2.5k 5/6k

Throw axe 6-7k (fair enough, target needs to be 25% or below)

Back breaker does 7k, hammer #2 does around the same, may be less. The list goes on.

[spectrito.8513]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Auburner.6945 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@Auburner.6945 said:The problem is not Rapidfire or GS skills, they are easily predictable/dodge-able. I got hit by auto attacks, 7k each, and the ranger could've had their auto-targeting up to make it even more challenging to land such high skill based auto attack from 1800 range. Just remove the damage increase based on range (it even defies physics), make them all as the lowest value of the three. Also, fix the damage modifiers, the base value of the auto attack and the co-efficient are almost the same as any other weapon, yet on SB with a 1800 range, it seems to hit the hardest.

Even still, if a ranger Auto-attack hits an average target in WvW; an average target runs some level of toughness. Most meta-comps run high levels of toughness. The auto-attack doesn't even crack 1500 damage. This is far from overpowered. We can't base how OP a class is based on them hitting people with little to no defense.

Here is a calculation showing that the damage is still high even vs players that build Toughness. An Elementalist has 1000 Toughness which is 1888 Armor. And Elementalist with 600 more Toughness will have 2500+ Armor.

Let's calcualte the skill's damage first of a SB on Full Marauder with Beastmastery and Wilderness Survival, and in beast mode (this example has no runes/sigils included still as not all will run Scholar/Pack for more damage): Skill damage = (Weapon strength

Power

Skill Co-eff.) = (1000

2500

0.9) = 2.25M, this number will come in handy below

Now let's calculate the damage this skill will do with modifiers and on crit: Modified damage = (Skill damage

Positive modifiers)/(Target's Armor

Negative modifiers) = (2.25M

1.1 "loud whistle"

1.07 "furious strength"

1.1 "oppressive superiority

2.2 "ferocity" * 1.4 "sic'em")/2500 = 3600 damage. That's 3600 damage vs a target that has wasted 600+ potential stats into Toughness to take 3600 from 1800 range at the start of a duel. Let alone that this 3600 was made if the SB has no runes or sigils equipped, and no boons but Fury, so imagine the damage with Might and offensive runes/sigils.

And not everyone runs Toughness as that of a full misntrel support. This gets even worse when a SB runs Marksmanship with Piercing and picks you in the middle of a zerg while they are at the roof, in this case, your support has nothing to do to save you, and this is one of the reasons why pin-sniping a commander exists... I would rather a cancerous pirate ship than this.

Now this is made even worse that the SB is not made of paper but can still survive and actually has the meta build on already, so it's not a d**keye that once the gap is closed is dead.

I sincerely wonder

how can an ele complain about a ranger

, hands down the easiest class to kill after guardian....I swear to god I am not trying to belittle you but..

out of all professions you complain about a glass ranger

that even a scrapping tempest can kill with reflects...I mean seriously man unless you're facing ROM or Boyce or Kiritsu..or any above average ranger ( who are quite few me not included) , killing a ranger with an ele should be a walk in the park...literally.

You talk about ranger when you as ele must face builds like holosmiths who sport a glass cannon dmg accompanied by ridiculous amounts of CC all the while having the sustain of an old celestial d/d ele...or a mirage and all its builds variations with all including distortion/stealth/teleports/condi spam......or a herald going around with perma 25 might, teleporting through walls critting you for 9k+ with their off hand sword regardless of your toughness...or a warrior..well you know well how tought it is...or a thief who can hit and teleport back at 1200 range non stop....

How can you possibly complain about rangers in this current balance?....Where do you see this ranger menace?....Do you play wvw by any chance? Because if you ..you know that the map is littered with unkillable holosmith, dashing spellbreakers, one shot mirage/chronos , s/d thieves for days ....but rarely these unicorn ranger builds spotted rarely and if you don't wvw then look at PvP, there are no rangers in the AT finals or before.....

S

I sincerely wonder

how can an ele complain about a ranger

Maybe a bunker s/d Weaver cant complain, but who plays melee Weaver now with Warclaw?And even without mount, how bad you have to be to let a melee Weaver get close to you ?As a Mara staff zerg build i have around 18k HP, Ive seen auto attacks criting me for 8k-11k, the only way i cant deal with it is to use burning retreat + lightning flash and hope the ranger cant hit me again from that distance.I assume you're talking about FreshAir Weaver, swirling winds doesnt destoy unblockables projectiles anymore, passive arcane shield doesnt do shit agains unblockables too... how hard it is to kill a FA that cant do anything against unblockables and only have a 40 sec 900 range blink and in 90% of the cases doesnt have any source of stability ?Unless you burn all of your skills on obsidian flesh, i cant see how it favors Ele over Ranger with almost twice as much range, 10sec cd 1200 bird leap + GS 3.

Dont bring AT's or sPvP to this discution, its a completely different game mode.Also if other builds are broken it justifies SB being overpowered ?

[SoV.5139]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@"SoV.5139" said:This is what the forum warriors lobbied in when they shouted down the bunker meta we used to have, which actually required some skill and produced far more long fights where people had to play their class.

Nowdays the flow chart is:Did you get the drop on your opponent?Yes: You win!No: You lose!

What'd we learn? Be careful what you ask for. You might get it, then complain harder than you did when shouting down a previous meta as lacking skill.

Both are not healthy.

Also, we do still have bunker builds, far greater than before as well. Many of which can not be killed without a very glassy build or +1. The problem is these two feed off each other to the point you have inverted the bell curve, that fewer people are running middle of the road builds and more people going to the extreme ends of bunker/support or pure spike builds. If you run any of the more "normal" builds, you will never kill the bunker, granted they will probably never kill you either, it just becomes annoying or you will be in range of a single spike rotation from a DPS build. Though I will say I would rather deal with the pure spike builds than some of the pure bunker builds with few exceptions.

Also, the bunker builds didn't require anymore skill (with some exceptions), many had/have pretty simple and well known rotations that you stick to and you will be just fine unless +1ed.

Part of the problem is that some of the spike builds have very high skill ceilings to pull off at all and survive. Others have very low skill floors, meaning the skill level to pull off with some success is very low, and +1ing can be blindfolded. The skill ceiling however also tends to be a bit lower as well in that on the upper end 1vs1 duels they don't perform very well.

Bunker meta required more skill and patience than anything displayed in any of the one shot kill videos in this thread. It also required patience, as fights were longer. Even when some folks have the skill, some of that subset lacks the patience, but in this one shot kill meta, they dont need it.

Alot of these folks do not understand cooldown management - they simply buff all the way up, then use their burst, then blow all their escapes, rinse repeat. If you did this in the bunker meta you would be outlasted unless someone was unprepared.

The 2012 to 2015 meta was far superior to this current one. Its not even close. Anyone attempting to compare the two and draw parity lacks objectivity, as its obvious to the extreme - like comparing the depth of a crack in the sidewalk to the depth of the Marianas Trench. Due to this transition to meta with far less of a skill floor/zero patience required etc... most of your skill ceiling folks have left, and the eSports all but dried up.

If you helped shout down the bunker meta claiming it was unskilled, congratulations, you are now getting exactly what you asked for and what you deserve, each and every time you are one shot killed.

When the forum warriors win, people actually playing the game lose. Just another example of many.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@SoV.5139 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@SoV.5139 said:This is what the forum warriors lobbied in when they shouted down the bunker meta we used to have, which actually required some skill and produced far more long fights where people had to play their class.

Nowdays the flow chart is:Did you get the drop on your opponent?Yes: You win!No: You lose!

What'd we learn? Be careful what you ask for. You might get it, then complain harder than you did when shouting down a previous meta as lacking skill.

Both are not healthy.

Also, we do still have bunker builds, far greater than before as well. Many of which can not be killed without a very glassy build or +1. The problem is these two feed off each other to the point you have inverted the bell curve, that fewer people are running middle of the road builds and more people going to the extreme ends of bunker/support or pure spike builds. If you run any of the more "normal" builds, you will never kill the bunker, granted they will probably never kill you either, it just becomes annoying or you will be in range of a single spike rotation from a DPS build. Though I will say I would rather deal with the pure spike builds than some of the pure bunker builds with few exceptions.

Also, the bunker builds didn't require anymore skill (with some exceptions), many had/have pretty simple and well known rotations that you stick to and you will be just fine unless +1ed.

Part of the problem is that some of the spike builds have very high skill ceilings to pull off at all and survive. Others have very low skill floors, meaning the skill level to pull off with some success is very low, and +1ing can be blindfolded. The skill ceiling however also tends to be a bit lower as well in that on the upper end 1vs1 duels they don't perform very well.

Bunker meta required more skill and patience than anything displayed in any of the one shot kill videos in this thread. It also required patience, as fights were longer. Even when some folks have the skill, some of that subset lacks the patience, but in this one shot kill meta, they dont need it.

Alot of these folks do not understand cooldown management - they simply buff all the way up, then use their burst, then blow all their escapes, rinse repeat. If you did this in the bunker meta you would be outlasted unless someone was unprepared.

The 2012 to 2015 meta was far superior to this current one. Its not even close. Anyone attempting to compare the two and draw parity lacks objectivity, as its obvious to the extreme - like comparing the depth of a crack in the sidewalk to the depth of the Marianas Trench. Due to this transition to meta with far less of a skill floor/zero patience required etc... most of your skill ceiling folks have left, and the eSports all but dried up.

If you helped shout down the bunker meta claiming it was unskilled, congratulations, you are now getting exactly what you asked for and what you deserve, each and every time you are one shot killed.

When the forum warriors win, people actually playing the game lose. Just another example of many.

Why do you think going through the same rotations over and over for sustain is more skilled than the same rotations over and over for DPS? The low skill floor exists for both, and bunker and support builds have gotten stronger, if you don't think so, I really don't know what to tell you. Again, both extremes have increased. The DPS builds are more noticeable and complained about because people die to them, while bunker builds, unless you are face roll, will probably never kill you.

Also, I can't remember the last time I was 1 shot by anything, unless it was in a +1 +2 +3 situation. As I said, I would rather deal with 1 shot builds than bunkers or middle of the road builds. However, again, as I said, both are toxic, saying unkillable bunker build meta is better than burst meta is not true, they are both toxic, just in different ways. The game has so much creep at this point at both ends, it's a spam meta, nothing more.

[SoV.5139]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@SoV.5139 said:This is what the forum warriors lobbied in when they shouted down the bunker meta we used to have, which actually required some skill and produced far more long fights where people had to play their class.

Nowdays the flow chart is:Did you get the drop on your opponent?Yes: You win!No: You lose!

What'd we learn? Be careful what you ask for. You might get it, then complain harder than you did when shouting down a previous meta as lacking skill.

Both are not healthy.

Also, we do still have bunker builds, far greater than before as well. Many of which can not be killed without a very glassy build or +1. The problem is these two feed off each other to the point you have inverted the bell curve, that fewer people are running middle of the road builds and more people going to the extreme ends of bunker/support or pure spike builds. If you run any of the more "normal" builds, you will never kill the bunker, granted they will probably never kill you either, it just becomes annoying or you will be in range of a single spike rotation from a DPS build. Though I will say I would rather deal with the pure spike builds than some of the pure bunker builds with few exceptions.

Also, the bunker builds didn't require anymore skill (with some exceptions), many had/have pretty simple and well known rotations that you stick to and you will be just fine unless +1ed.

Part of the problem is that some of the spike builds have very high skill ceilings to pull off at all and survive. Others have very low skill floors, meaning the skill level to pull off with some success is very low, and +1ing can be blindfolded. The skill ceiling however also tends to be a bit lower as well in that on the upper end 1vs1 duels they don't perform very well.

Bunker meta required more skill and patience than anything displayed in any of the one shot kill videos in this thread. It also required patience, as fights were longer. Even when some folks have the skill, some of that subset lacks the patience, but in this one shot kill meta, they dont need it.

Alot of these folks do not understand cooldown management - they simply buff all the way up, then use their burst, then blow all their escapes, rinse repeat. If you did this in the bunker meta you would be outlasted unless someone was unprepared.

The 2012 to 2015 meta was far superior to this current one. Its not even close. Anyone attempting to compare the two and draw parity lacks objectivity, as its obvious to the extreme - like comparing the depth of a crack in the sidewalk to the depth of the Marianas Trench. Due to this transition to meta with far less of a skill floor/zero patience required etc... most of your skill ceiling folks have left, and the eSports all but dried up.

If you helped shout down the bunker meta claiming it was unskilled, congratulations, you are now getting exactly what you asked for and what you deserve, each and every time you are one shot killed.

When the forum warriors win, people actually playing the game lose. Just another example of many.

Why do you think going through the same rotations over and over for sustain is more skilled than the same rotations over and over for DPS? The low skill floor exists for both, and bunker and support builds have gotten stronger, if you don't think so, I really don't know what to tell you. Again, both extremes have increased. The DPS builds are more noticeable and complained about because people die to them, while bunker builds, unless you are face roll, will probably never kill you.

Also, I can't remember the last time I was 1 shot by anything, unless it was in a +1 +2 +3 situation. As I said, I would rather deal with 1 shot builds than bunkers or middle of the road builds. However, again, as I said, both are toxic, saying unkillable bunker build meta is better than burst meta is not true, they are both toxic, just in different ways. The game has so much creep at this point at both ends, it's a spam meta, nothing more.

Youre making it sound like its a choice between sustain OR damage, which is not true. The old school bunker meta required how to rotate through sustain AND damage.

Furthermore:Skill wise, having to rotate for sustain -and- dps while in battle > blowing a bunch of CDs on buffs when not in battle, then one shot killing. Some with slightly more skill (but still nowhere near the skill floor of old school bunker meta) will then use escape buttons afterward. Many do this EVEN WHEN they got the down, which shows that its a mere memorization of one sequence of button mashes, with no real thought or patience being out into it.

"The game has so much creep at this point at both ends, it's a spam meta, nothing more."

Heres where you and I agree. :p

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@Auburner.6945 said:

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@Auburner.6945 said:The problem is not Rapidfire or GS skills, they are easily predictable/dodge-able. I got hit by auto attacks, 7k each, and the ranger could've had their auto-targeting up to make it even more challenging to land such high skill based auto attack from 1800 range. Just remove the damage increase based on range (it even defies physics), make them all as the lowest value of the three. Also, fix the damage modifiers, the base value of the auto attack and the co-efficient are almost the same as any other weapon, yet on SB with a 1800 range, it seems to hit the hardest.

Even still, if a ranger Auto-attack hits an average target in WvW; an average target runs some level of toughness. Most meta-comps run high levels of toughness. The auto-attack doesn't even crack 1500 damage. This is far from overpowered. We can't base how OP a class is based on them hitting people with little to no defense.

Here is a calculation showing that the damage is still high even vs players that build Toughness. An Elementalist has 1000 Toughness which is 1888 Armor. And Elementalist with 600 more Toughness will have 2500+ Armor.

Let's calcualte the skill's damage first of a SB on Full Marauder with Beastmastery and Wilderness Survival, and in beast mode (this example has no runes/sigils included still as not all will run Scholar/Pack for more damage): Skill damage = (Weapon strength

Power

Skill Co-eff.) = (1000

2500

0.9) = 2.25M, this number will come in handy below

Now let's calculate the damage this skill will do with modifiers and on crit: Modified damage = (Skill damage

Positive modifiers)/(Target's Armor

Negative modifiers) = (2.25M

1.1 "loud whistle"

1.07 "furious strength"

1.1 "oppressive superiority

2.2 "ferocity" * 1.4 "sic'em")/2500 = 3600 damage. That's 3600 damage vs a target that has wasted 600+ potential stats into Toughness to take 3600 from 1800 range at the start of a duel. Let alone that this 3600 was made if the SB has no runes or sigils equipped, and no boons but Fury, so imagine the damage with Might and offensive runes/sigils.

And not everyone runs Toughness as that of a full misntrel support. This gets even worse when a SB runs Marksmanship with Piercing and picks you in the middle of a zerg while they are at the roof, in this case, your support has nothing to do to save you, and this is one of the reasons why pin-sniping a commander exists... I would rather a cancerous pirate ship than this.

Now this is made even worse that the SB is not made of paper but can still survive and actually has the meta build on already, so it's not a d**keye that once the gap is closed is dead.

Again your misleading people.The power of a soulbeast /ranger with onlty Marauders is 1741, not the 2500 you describe.That ignores... Everything else. Power builds can reach ~3500 power. Thats before you start stacking modifiers.

No one is reaching the absurd amount of damage we're seeing with just 1741 power.

3500? you can go over 4500 power with some classes self buffing lol

[KelyNeli.4516]

@spectrito.8513 said:

@"Mokk.2397" said:What armor do you have on,because just looking at that damage I know your running glass .Was the ranger in question externally booned up ?So throwing up a bunch of combat damage up is just testimonial BS that doesn't prove anything .Show us your armor stats and prove with the combat math that is provided .This is just more single sided BS that's completely biased with purely circumstantial evidence.The ranger is fine the way it is .People are just mad because it upsets their precious Meta.Ranger /Soulbeast running LB is power damage .Dump your Glass Meta build and put some armor on .I have Minstrels on with scholar runes and never get hit like that from any ranger or soulbeast .Your argument is empty and unfounded.

If you can defend this BS after watching this idk what to tell you

And i was scratching my head, wtf did i died in 1 second in WvW last time, when no one even was close to me.And here is the answer to my question.Berserker got nerfed back into the garbage state instantly after the rework, because one skill that happen to be difficult to set up was 3-shooting guys with mammoth reflex and it was so OP, but i guess humming missiles that hits for 10-15k from 1200 range are perfectly fine and no one from Arena net bothers about balancing it for so long.What a fucking joke.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@SoV.5139 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@SoV.5139 said:This is what the forum warriors lobbied in when they shouted down the bunker meta we used to have, which actually required some skill and produced far more long fights where people had to play their class.

Nowdays the flow chart is:Did you get the drop on your opponent?Yes: You win!No: You lose!

What'd we learn? Be careful what you ask for. You might get it, then complain harder than you did when shouting down a previous meta as lacking skill.

Both are not healthy.

Also, we do still have bunker builds, far greater than before as well. Many of which can not be killed without a very glassy build or +1. The problem is these two feed off each other to the point you have inverted the bell curve, that fewer people are running middle of the road builds and more people going to the extreme ends of bunker/support or pure spike builds. If you run any of the more "normal" builds, you will never kill the bunker, granted they will probably never kill you either, it just becomes annoying or you will be in range of a single spike rotation from a DPS build. Though I will say I would rather deal with the pure spike builds than some of the pure bunker builds with few exceptions.

Also, the bunker builds didn't require anymore skill (with some exceptions), many had/have pretty simple and well known rotations that you stick to and you will be just fine unless +1ed.

Part of the problem is that some of the spike builds have very high skill ceilings to pull off at all and survive. Others have very low skill floors, meaning the skill level to pull off with some success is very low, and +1ing can be blindfolded. The skill ceiling however also tends to be a bit lower as well in that on the upper end 1vs1 duels they don't perform very well.

Bunker meta required more skill and patience than anything displayed in any of the one shot kill videos in this thread. It also required patience, as fights were longer. Even when some folks have the skill, some of that subset lacks the patience, but in this one shot kill meta, they dont need it.

Alot of these folks do not understand cooldown management - they simply buff all the way up, then use their burst, then blow all their escapes, rinse repeat. If you did this in the bunker meta you would be outlasted unless someone was unprepared.

The 2012 to 2015 meta was far superior to this current one. Its not even close. Anyone attempting to compare the two and draw parity lacks objectivity, as its obvious to the extreme - like comparing the depth of a crack in the sidewalk to the depth of the Marianas Trench. Due to this transition to meta with far less of a skill floor/zero patience required etc... most of your skill ceiling folks have left, and the eSports all but dried up.

If you helped shout down the bunker meta claiming it was unskilled, congratulations, you are now getting exactly what you asked for and what you deserve, each and every time you are one shot killed.

When the forum warriors win, people actually playing the game lose. Just another example of many.

Why do you think going through the same rotations over and over for sustain is more skilled than the same rotations over and over for DPS? The low skill floor exists for both, and bunker and support builds have gotten stronger, if you don't think so, I really don't know what to tell you. Again, both extremes have increased. The DPS builds are more noticeable and complained about because people die to them, while bunker builds, unless you are face roll, will probably never kill you.

Also, I can't remember the last time I was 1 shot by anything, unless it was in a +1 +2 +3 situation. As I said, I would rather deal with 1 shot builds than bunkers or middle of the road builds. However, again, as I said, both are toxic, saying unkillable bunker build meta is better than burst meta is not true, they are both toxic, just in different ways. The game has so much creep at this point at both ends, it's a spam meta, nothing more.

Youre making it sound like its a choice between sustain OR damage, which is not true. The old school bunker meta required how to rotate through sustain AND damage.

Furthermore:Skill wise, having to rotate for sustain -and- dps while in battle > blowing a bunch of CDs on buffs when not in battle, then one shot killing. Some with slightly more skill (but still nowhere near the skill floor of old school bunker meta) will then use escape buttons afterward. Many do this EVEN WHEN they got the down, which shows that its a mere memorization of one sequence of button mashes, with no real thought or patience being out into it.

"The game has so much creep at this point at both ends, it's a spam meta, nothing more."

Heres where you and I agree. :p

I don't think we are talking about the same thing, unless you are talking about broken specs, as the bunkers of a few years ago didn't have damage, at least nothing to speak of that would kill you, however they were almost unkillable 1vs1. Now, some broken specs existed that could do both, like AH Guard builds back in the day before AH was nerfed into the ground. Good old Staff/Hammer. I think your bunker builds are my middle of the road builds, that have some DPS, but with some survivability built in.

[SoV.5139]

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@SoV.5139 said:This is what the forum warriors lobbied in when they shouted down the bunker meta we used to have, which actually required some skill and produced far more long fights where people had to play their class.

Nowdays the flow chart is:Did you get the drop on your opponent?Yes: You win!No: You lose!

What'd we learn? Be careful what you ask for. You might get it, then complain harder than you did when shouting down a previous meta as lacking skill.

Both are not healthy.

Also, we do still have bunker builds, far greater than before as well. Many of which can not be killed without a very glassy build or +1. The problem is these two feed off each other to the point you have inverted the bell curve, that fewer people are running middle of the road builds and more people going to the extreme ends of bunker/support or pure spike builds. If you run any of the more "normal" builds, you will never kill the bunker, granted they will probably never kill you either, it just becomes annoying or you will be in range of a single spike rotation from a DPS build. Though I will say I would rather deal with the pure spike builds than some of the pure bunker builds with few exceptions.

Also, the bunker builds didn't require anymore skill (with some exceptions), many had/have pretty simple and well known rotations that you stick to and you will be just fine unless +1ed.

Part of the problem is that some of the spike builds have very high skill ceilings to pull off at all and survive. Others have very low skill floors, meaning the skill level to pull off with some success is very low, and +1ing can be blindfolded. The skill ceiling however also tends to be a bit lower as well in that on the upper end 1vs1 duels they don't perform very well.

Bunker meta required more skill and patience than anything displayed in any of the one shot kill videos in this thread. It also required patience, as fights were longer. Even when some folks have the skill, some of that subset lacks the patience, but in this one shot kill meta, they dont need it.

Alot of these folks do not understand cooldown management - they simply buff all the way up, then use their burst, then blow all their escapes, rinse repeat. If you did this in the bunker meta you would be outlasted unless someone was unprepared.

The 2012 to 2015 meta was far superior to this current one. Its not even close. Anyone attempting to compare the two and draw parity lacks objectivity, as its obvious to the extreme - like comparing the depth of a crack in the sidewalk to the depth of the Marianas Trench. Due to this transition to meta with far less of a skill floor/zero patience required etc... most of your skill ceiling folks have left, and the eSports all but dried up.

If you helped shout down the bunker meta claiming it was unskilled, congratulations, you are now getting exactly what you asked for and what you deserve, each and every time you are one shot killed.

When the forum warriors win, people actually playing the game lose. Just another example of many.

Why do you think going through the same rotations over and over for sustain is more skilled than the same rotations over and over for DPS? The low skill floor exists for both, and bunker and support builds have gotten stronger, if you don't think so, I really don't know what to tell you. Again, both extremes have increased. The DPS builds are more noticeable and complained about because people die to them, while bunker builds, unless you are face roll, will probably never kill you.

Also, I can't remember the last time I was 1 shot by anything, unless it was in a +1 +2 +3 situation. As I said, I would rather deal with 1 shot builds than bunkers or middle of the road builds. However, again, as I said, both are toxic, saying unkillable bunker build meta is better than burst meta is not true, they are both toxic, just in different ways. The game has so much creep at this point at both ends, it's a spam meta, nothing more.

Youre making it sound like its a choice between sustain OR damage, which is not true. The old school bunker meta required how to rotate through sustain AND damage.

Furthermore:Skill wise, having to rotate for sustain -and- dps while in battle > blowing a bunch of CDs on buffs when not in battle, then one shot killing. Some with slightly more skill (but still nowhere near the skill floor of old school bunker meta) will then use escape buttons afterward. Many do this EVEN WHEN they got the down, which shows that its a mere memorization of one sequence of button mashes, with no real thought or patience being out into it.

"The game has so much creep at this point at both ends, it's a spam meta, nothing more."

Heres where you and I agree. :p

I don't think we are talking about the same thing, unless you are talking about broken specs, as the bunkers of a few years ago didn't have damage, at least nothing to speak of that would kill you, however they were almost unkillable 1vs1. Now, some broken specs existed that could do both, like AH Guard builds back in the day before AH was nerfed into the ground. Good old Staff/Hammer. I think your bunker builds are my middle of the road builds, that have some DPS, but with some survivability built in.

Bunker specs have damage, they just arent optimized for it. GW2 used to have "attrition" builds, but this playstyle was eliminated when the forum warriors shouted it down as "unskilled play" because they kept being beaten by it (edit: and because they lack patience) and what they cant beat in game, they beat on the forums. This helped usher in the current era where DPS numbers are so high, and skill floors so low, that someone with a NES-Advantage mentality (hold down the Turbo button aaaahhhhh!!!!!) can win fights, which would not have happened in 2012-2015 unless matched against another mindless button masher.

It makes sense from a business perspective, as making low skill floor build have a high output makes more money (more people feel like they contribute). The con is eSports seeing this system (in its current state) as a joke, and moving away from GW2. This is why folks call WvW a "dead game mode" - not because no one is playing it, but because it no longer garners the attention it used to for actual competitive play.

[RedShark.9548]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"RedShark.9548" said:Ppl saying "hurr durr just dodge" make me laugh.Maul has 4sec cd (which is quicker than endurance regenerates, im pretty sure, its low af)It hits harder than any warrior or guard gs skill with lower cd, while those 2 are basically full melee and cant equip a longbow that has 1500 where you have to be scared of 1111 hits alone.

Paired with signets of stone and that soulbeast dmg reduction stuff + mobillity, ranger definately needs to be worked on

You must be a pretty terrible player to get hit by maul or the opponent is close to God status..choose one...I'd go for first one because you claim huge dmg then state defenses belong to another build, we're talking about ranger not engi on holosmith. A ranger stacked for maul dmg is super glass and has no sustain and if you claim signet of stone does anything at all....yes even more you're a terrible player, if you die to a glass ranger 1v1...you need to work on your skills ...for a long time

Yes yes, call me terrible as much as you want, but sooner or later maul will hit most players, just because it has 4 seconds cd lol.

And how does anything about glass has something to do with the skills you use?

Glass is the gear you choose, the skills like signet of stone, or that soulbeast skill (where i forgot the name from, but in pvp has like 30 or 40 sec cd)Are forms of defenses that are available to anybody no matter of gear or build.

The last season i played ranked pvp was in around december and january, and i got plat with core warrior, take it as you will idc

All i can say is that its almost impossible to kill a good ranger (especs included) as a full melee class

[Shroud.2307]

@"KelyNeli.4516" said:Berserker got nerfed back into the garbage state instantly after the rework, because one skill that happen to be difficult to set up was 3-shooting guys with mammoth reflex and it was so OP, but i guess humming missiles that hits for 10-15k from 1200 range are perfectly fine and no one from Arena net bothers about balancing it for so long.What a kitten joke.

Are you serious... "difficult to set up"? Signet of Fury -> F1 -> Blood Reckoning -> F1.

Arc Divider still has a maximum radius of 480. And for comparison, Meteor Shower has a radius of 360... That means point blank range two dodges backwards won't be enough to escape it, and you'll still get hit on the third strike. It was broken before and it was fixed. It's still extremely strong and capable of hitting upwards of 15 - 20k if all three hits connect. The difference is that now it doesn't hit for 10k+ per hit.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said... Change the way "Sic 'Em!" interacts with the Ranger either by reducing the damage bonus to 5 or 10% or by not allowing it to effect the Ranger at all.

It will still be capable of high damage even if "Sic 'Em!" is changed but it will be a lot more manageable. Not only that, it will open up other options on the skill bar for players who want to play high ranged DPS builds. As of right now you may as well be playing core Ranger if you don't take "Sic 'Em!" and want to be a glassy sniper.

Also, "difficult to set up" would apply a lot better to what has to be done to land the kind of bursts a 1 shot Soulbeast does.Merge with pet -> Maul -> "Sic 'Em!" -> "Strength Of The Pack!" (optional) -> Quickening Zephyr (optional) -> "We Heal As One!" -> Winter's Bite / or / Rapid Fire.You also need Marksmanship, Farsighted, Remorseless, Beastmastery and Honed Axes if you're going for a Winter's Bite build.

If it fails it's initial burst it's damage drops significantly but it will still hurt a lot. It's like a core shatter Mesmer. If you can avoid the initial spike you have a clear window to apply pressure while they have multiple skills/traits on cooldown.

[Thornwolf.9721]

Nerf the amount of boons soulbeast has, remove several modifiers and call it a day. Core Ranger is not the issue and if they nerf weapons based and utilities based on a elite spec then core ranger will become trash; While soul-beast will be just fine. The modifiers soul-beast gets with its traitline, and the other traitlines together is a huge "Ooopsie" on a-nets part; It shouldn't get that many and should not have the boon uptime it does.

I agree that it shouldn't be capable of this level of burst, no class should regardless of arch-type. Being one-shot or completely shit on with no chance of countering it is lame; Especially if you are already in a fight and then it joins in while you're pre-occupied and there is nothing you can do about it. Mounts should not be doing the damage that the above video shows; Not in a mode where pvp is accessible. Soul-beast needs to be wacked hard; Nerfed so that it can't do what has been shown but DO NOT TAKE IT OUT ON CORE RANGER.

Core seems to be fine, I don't have issues fighting them and don't have problems playing as one. My main is a Rev and I can tell you this, A soul-best will mess me up without worldly Impact or rapid-fire. Eventually I will get cc'd and mauled and the maul will burst me down pretty handily; I also dabble with warrior, engie(Scrapper) and core ranger. It's soul-beasts one shotting me off my mount before I can even attack or know the attack is coming. I know some of it might be an awareness thing on my part; But I shouldn't be getting completely decimated in one attack with a bruiser/sustain build. ( I do not run glass- cannon either.)

[Kaiser.9873]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:worldy impact is a hugely telegraphed skill. You also proved a point on which everyone is saying.. look at how pitiful rapid fire hits. It's not as strong as people like to claim it to be. Then we have someone getting hit by 2 hugely telegraphed skills. You realize the Rev hammers hit harder than that and virtually can't be seen, and are on a lower cool down..

Never been hit over 15K by any rev attack. Maul can be used twice pretty immediately. Deadly impact is hugely telegraphed, but if in confused conditions people will get hit by it.

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@SoV.5139 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@SoV.5139 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@SoV.5139 said:This is what the forum warriors lobbied in when they shouted down the bunker meta we used to have, which actually required some skill and produced far more long fights where people had to play their class.

Nowdays the flow chart is:Did you get the drop on your opponent?Yes: You win!No: You lose!

What'd we learn? Be careful what you ask for. You might get it, then complain harder than you did when shouting down a previous meta as lacking skill.

Both are not healthy.

Also, we do still have bunker builds, far greater than before as well. Many of which can not be killed without a very glassy build or +1. The problem is these two feed off each other to the point you have inverted the bell curve, that fewer people are running middle of the road builds and more people going to the extreme ends of bunker/support or pure spike builds. If you run any of the more "normal" builds, you will never kill the bunker, granted they will probably never kill you either, it just becomes annoying or you will be in range of a single spike rotation from a DPS build. Though I will say I would rather deal with the pure spike builds than some of the pure bunker builds with few exceptions.

Also, the bunker builds didn't require anymore skill (with some exceptions), many had/have pretty simple and well known rotations that you stick to and you will be just fine unless +1ed.

Part of the problem is that some of the spike builds have very high skill ceilings to pull off at all and survive. Others have very low skill floors, meaning the skill level to pull off with some success is very low, and +1ing can be blindfolded. The skill ceiling however also tends to be a bit lower as well in that on the upper end 1vs1 duels they don't perform very well.

Bunker meta required more skill and patience than anything displayed in any of the one shot kill videos in this thread. It also required patience, as fights were longer. Even when some folks have the skill, some of that subset lacks the patience, but in this one shot kill meta, they dont need it.

Alot of these folks do not understand cooldown management - they simply buff all the way up, then use their burst, then blow all their escapes, rinse repeat. If you did this in the bunker meta you would be outlasted unless someone was unprepared.

The 2012 to 2015 meta was far superior to this current one. Its not even close. Anyone attempting to compare the two and draw parity lacks objectivity, as its obvious to the extreme - like comparing the depth of a crack in the sidewalk to the depth of the Marianas Trench. Due to this transition to meta with far less of a skill floor/zero patience required etc... most of your skill ceiling folks have left, and the eSports all but dried up.

If you helped shout down the bunker meta claiming it was unskilled, congratulations, you are now getting exactly what you asked for and what you deserve, each and every time you are one shot killed.

When the forum warriors win, people actually playing the game lose. Just another example of many.

Why do you think going through the same rotations over and over for sustain is more skilled than the same rotations over and over for DPS? The low skill floor exists for both, and bunker and support builds have gotten stronger, if you don't think so, I really don't know what to tell you. Again, both extremes have increased. The DPS builds are more noticeable and complained about because people die to them, while bunker builds, unless you are face roll, will probably never kill you.

Also, I can't remember the last time I was 1 shot by anything, unless it was in a +1 +2 +3 situation. As I said, I would rather deal with 1 shot builds than bunkers or middle of the road builds. However, again, as I said, both are toxic, saying unkillable bunker build meta is better than burst meta is not true, they are both toxic, just in different ways. The game has so much creep at this point at both ends, it's a spam meta, nothing more.

Youre making it sound like its a choice between sustain OR damage, which is not true. The old school bunker meta required how to rotate through sustain AND damage.

Furthermore:Skill wise, having to rotate for sustain -and- dps while in battle > blowing a bunch of CDs on buffs when not in battle, then one shot killing. Some with slightly more skill (but still nowhere near the skill floor of old school bunker meta) will then use escape buttons afterward. Many do this EVEN WHEN they got the down, which shows that its a mere memorization of one sequence of button mashes, with no real thought or patience being out into it.

"The game has so much creep at this point at both ends, it's a spam meta, nothing more."

Heres where you and I agree. :p

I don't think we are talking about the same thing, unless you are talking about broken specs, as the bunkers of a few years ago didn't have damage, at least nothing to speak of that would kill you, however they were almost unkillable 1vs1. Now, some broken specs existed that could do both, like AH Guard builds back in the day before AH was nerfed into the ground. Good old Staff/Hammer. I think your bunker builds are my middle of the road builds, that have some DPS, but with some survivability built in.

Bunker specs have damage, they just arent optimized for it. GW2 used to have "attrition" builds, but this playstyle was eliminated when the forum warriors shouted it down as "unskilled play" because they kept being beaten by it (edit: and because they lack patience) and what they cant beat in game, they beat on the forums. This helped usher in the current era where DPS numbers are so high, and skill floors so low, that someone with a NES-Advantage mentality (hold down the Turbo button aaaahhhhh!!!!!) can win fights, which would not have happened in 2012-2015 unless matched against another mindless button masher.

It makes sense from a business perspective, as making low skill floor build have a high output makes more money (more people feel like they contribute). The con is eSports seeing this system (in its current state) as a joke, and moving away from GW2. This is why folks call WvW a "dead game mode" - not because no one is playing it, but because it no longer garners the attention it used to for actual competitive play.

That's middle of the road builds, what is called a bruiser build. You have survivability, but can still do decent DPS, those are not bunkers. Bunker is full speced into sustain, but don't do enough DPS to down anyone but a afk player. They call them bruiser and "attrition" builds and not bunkers for a reason.