It's time to start banning addons and 3rd party tools

[Blocki.4931]

I love how every example for how addons are bad has more to do with people themselves than the tools they could be using.

Tools exist because they clearly serve a purpose. Saying you shouldn't be able to have information more easily visible is silly. There is no advantage to be gained in such a scenario though. Yeah, somebody can download a Taco marker pack and see everything they need to collect. So what? Yeah, they were faster than somebody who doesn't use it. Did anybody get harmed? Yes, the person using the pack because they skipped the gameplay part of finding the locations themselves. That's a choice they make, just as many other people chose to not use any addons. None of them should be made baseline except they make sense. We don't need to have 30 marker packs for the base game when an addon has it perfectly covered.

[Rukario.1695]

Either use them, or don't. If they were not safe, Anet would not have shown that they use them from time to time in either media posts or other; as this has been shown in the past. No I do not have a link for reference, but you can see threads about this exact debate online in multiple discussion areas.

To cover any fringe cases, yes, they are labeled as "Use as your own risk," as you cannot cover everything. Taco and ArcDPS should be fine to use, you can use community feedback on others to get an idea of what people use and what they do not. It is entirely optional for you to add anything.

They are allowed on the official subreddit, they are allowed to be discussed here on the forums, there is an API forum that caters to a lot of the requirements these tools make use of, and it is not against the Terms of Service. If you are asking about the Terms of Service, they are specifically targeting Botting and Hacking software. Overlays that simply augment visuals and perception do no harm to anyone.

I do agree that prudes who use them as a means to belittle other players is bad, but they are going to do that anyway with whatever means they can. You simply block them and then you never have to hear from them again. Do not play with people you do not like; things happen when you are exposed to no one but strangers online.

[Blocki.4931]

@"Vyrulisse.1246" said:Tac0 markers are literally in-game advantages and cheating over those that don't have them. Especially for Adventures, Races, Holiday events and Jumping Puzzles.

Yeah... no. They give you visuals of where you have to go. That is information you can gather yourself by just playing and using your eyes and brain. Isn't half the fun figuring stuff out yourself? They skip out on that. Either way, how is it "cheating over those that don't have them" if they have the same opportunity to just download and run it themselves? Who is getting cheated here? It harms nobody in any direct way.

And since I saw it brought up elsewhere: Even in PvP those markers are rather pointless, because at the moment you learned that information yourself you gain absolutely nothing from having them. Sure, a nice reminder that you can jump up certain spots, but that is nothing but a visual representation of something you can already know anyway.

[Ashantara.8731]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Help you finish map completion for core tyria in less than half the time.

That's up to people whether they want to spoil the fun of real exploration and rush through. I am against it, but who am I to tell others what's the most fun way to play the game?

Make it easier to mount via radial menus.(Should be in the base game)

Agreed.

Damage meters(these are fine tbh though)

Well, I don't completely agree. While I think that there are a lot of players who need to improve their builds and equipment to deal decent damage, exact numbers can be too restrictive.

Markers on the map for gather routes(should be base in the game).

No, they should absolutely not be in the game. Markers yes, and they are, but no easy-route indicators. Seriously, you are against help for map completion but support this?

[Rasimir.6239]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:I will try: Let's suppose TWO persons playing from the same location (two twin brothers). Using the same machine for playing. And the same internet connection. Playing alternatively - one in the morning, the other in the afternoon, the same number of hours each. One is using the add-ons to find the SkyScale eggs (or to cure the Skyscales / or to gather scales). The other is not using any add-on.Definitely ban the add-on! It's robbing the poor brother that uses it of the fun of collecting!!!

See, there's two sides to everything. Personally I've turned off map chat and kept away from most ep6 related forum and reddit posts to not spoil the fun. A good friend and I have been all over the new map collecting bits and pieces without spoilers for days now. This is the kind of content that keeps us playing. Another good friend doesn't enjoy scavenger hunts but would like to have the mount anyway, so she's using outside information. So what?

Btw, I'm often faster gathering resources than friends using add-ons since I have a very good location memory and simply remember where nodes tend to spawn. Do I have an unfair advantage over those that have to turn to outside sources for fast material gathering?

[Evil.1580]

Are these, you know, allowed to be used? Are they in any conflict with any of ANET TOS (because as far as I know they are ok)? If they are not, what is the problem? They will give "disadvantage" only to players that has chosen not to use them. I mean, if they want they can use them.

[crepuscular.9047]

the amount of addons people made for GW2 is nothing compared to other games, especially WoW, there are currently 872 pages on curse, 20 addons per page, so there's currently 17,440 WoW addons listed on curse, thousands more on other websites

[Stalkingwolf.6035]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:

@"Stalkingwolf.6035" said:Ban 2nd monitor too!and all those guides!

srsly. where to start and where to end?Taco markers you use two times and you know where to run.Its the same as watching a guide on youtube on the 2nd monitor

You don't understand the point of this debate. It is not about

hardware

. You can use as many monitors as you want. This debate is about

software

. Pieces of code running on your computer.

No you dont understand my point. Yes ist sarcastic, but OP doesnt want that anybody has a advantage over someone who doesnt use "addons".But players with a 2nd Monitor has an advantage. Using gaming Moue/Keyboard has an advantage in PvP, using guides from Dulfy, Guildnews, any Youtuber has an advantage. Players using gw2efficiency combined the an API Key has an advantage.

if you dont want to use "addons", fine! your desicion. But dont tell other players how to play the games.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:[some stuff]Anyone can invent a narrative to tell a plausible story. That might comfort some people; it doesn't make it true.

In this case, ANet has been explicit about what they consider okay, and what they don't. I've paraphrased their previous posts, because this has come up before. It's their game, and their rules. And they do not have a problem with add ons.

If you or the OP think it should change, then come up with a compelling argument. The OP doesn't need to convince me; they want to convince ANet. That's not going to happen by using unrealistic points of comparison, misrepresenting the studio's position, or making up facts.

[Evil.1580]

I really find TACO addon extremely good and useful, as shown in a

. Seems like the addon is safe and legal.

[Khisanth.2948]

@Loosmaster.8263 said:You can't pick and choose. Ban one then ban them all.

Or what they want to allow, put it in the game.

Can't? It has already happened.

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"steki.1478" said:How do any of these affect the way you play the game if you're not using them?

Unfair advantage in the sense that other people can exploit faster node runs because they essentially have an overlay that shows them exactly where they are and the fastest path to them where as others have to run around aimlessly until they find them all.

Toxicity bred from some players who use 3rd party tools to check other peoples stats, gear, damage etc and then criticize them for not playing upto "thier level" and maxing their DPS rotations etc when for the most part the players being attacked are only playing for fun and don't care about hitting the expected benchmarks set by the toxic players. (I have personally been on the reciving end of this testing a new build in dungeon content.. seriously.. a DPS elitist in dungeon content.)

Yet the OP claims DPS meters are okay.On the other hand those behavior has existed DPS meters existed. Which is pretty solid proof that removing it would not solve this supposed problem.

Why are you try to find scapegoats and make excuses for awful people behaving badly? Put the blame where it belongs, on those people.

[Yamazuki.6073]

@Cristalyan.5728 said:You don't understand the point of this debate. It is not about hardware. You can use as many monitors as you want. This debate is about software.

The point in using two monitors is to use your web browser (3rd party software) to view information on a second monitor (or even a phone/tablet). In the end, people with multiple screens are still using software to gain an advantage. There are other third party software that also provide an advantage, Discord (and other voice chats). Are you going to suggest we start banning people who dares to run any software that isn't base Windows 10 while GW2 is running?

@Cristalyan.5728 said:LOL? Are you sure? By this "They aren't "against the rules." They are "use at your own risk."It is a use at your own risk due to the fact game updates tend to cause issues with add-ons, and when your client starts crashing after an update due to the add-on you assume full responsibility and will fix it yourself, rather than either submitting a thread on forums asking for ArenaNets help, or sending in a ticket. Even if there was an official way to have add-ons like Steam does, it is still a use at your own risk and you fix the issues yourself.

[Cristalyan.5728]

@Yamazuki.6073 said:

@Cristalyan.5728 said:You don't understand the point of this debate. It is not about

hardware

. You can use as many monitors as you want. This debate is about

software

.

The point in using two monitors is to use your web browser (3rd party software) to view information on a second monitor (or even a phone/tablet). In the end, people with multiple screens are still using software to gain an advantage. There are other third party software that also provide an advantage, Discord (and other voice chats). Are you going to suggest we start banning people who dares to run any software that isn't base Windows 10 while GW2 is running?

Well, that 3 party software (the browser) is not interfering with your game in any way. Or you are using a browser who can read your DPS, your boon uptime and it can place you markers on the GW2 maps?ANet cannot force you to not use a software

outside

of the game. This is the reaswon they were so careful to state what kind of software interactions are not allowed

inside

GW2. And no, we have now GW2 running on Linux. And also running on MAC. So, I don't understand what is your point: the Operating system allows you to run GW2. Not vice-versao. And, if you read the EULA and the terms of use for GW2, you will se that nowhere Anet states that GW2 can run without an OS and using an OS is a bannable offense. How can Win or Linux place markers on your GW2 maps? How can the OS to read and to give you a readable information about the DPS/boons/conditions?

@Cristalyan.5728 said:LOL? Are you sure? By this "They aren't "against the rules." They are "use at your own risk."It is a use at your own risk due to the fact game updates tend to cause issues with add-ons, and when your client starts crashing after an update due to the add-on you assume full responsibility and will fix it yourself, rather than either submitting a thread on forums asking for ArenaNets help, or sending in a ticket. Even if there was an official way to have add-ons like Steam does, it is still a use at your own risk and you fix the issues yourself.

I will start from this: "and when your client starts crashing after an update due to the add-on you assume full responsibility and will fix it yourself".

Stop talking nonsense, please. Even if you have the knowledge to fix the client, you may be acused by modifying the software files of the game and you may be banned. So, you don't fix the client. In the worst case you flood the creator of the add-on with complains and he will update the add-on to fit the game. Not even him will "fix" the client to fit his add-on. And you will play 1-2 days until the add-on is patched to use it again.

Still, the risk is not limited to client crashes. The way it is stated it covers A LOT more situations.

[JustTrogdor.7892]

Anet seems to be cool with TacO since they have posted videos of it in use on several occasions via their Twitter. Here are a few examples.

https://twitter.com/GuildWars2/status/860419853257244672https://twitter.com/GuildWars2/status/843793175173087232https://twitter.com/GuildWars2/status/852823928431034370

TacO is an overlay. Several years ago ANet actually had a contest for people to design overlays for the Overwolf app.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Overwolf

[ChronoPinoyX.7923]

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:Stop talking nonsense, please. Even if you have the knowledge to fix the client, you may be acused by modifying the software files of the game and you may be banned. So, you don't fix the client. In the worst case you flood the creator of the add-on with complains and he will update the add-on to fit the game. Not even him will "fix" the client to fit his add-on. And you will play 1-2 days until the add-on is patched to use it again.

Still, the risk is not limited to client crashes. The way it is stated it covers A LOT more situations.

See the problem is this statement is completely wrong. Nothing about actually modding the files for visual effects has anything to do with actually modifying the game outright in a way that it affects server side information. Mods such as TacO are made to comply with Terms of Use by ANet because ANet knows these have a form of QoL to them that the game currently doesn't have. Here's what Chris Cleary said (the guy who actually revises Terms of Use) has said back in 2017 regarding mods like TacO

So already, your statement is completely wrong. ANet are doing what they can as of this current moment to make these QoL changes that people made to be available in game (right now they are working on Build Templates) so modding will eventually become minimal but as of this moment, nothing that you stated is correct.

[aspirine.6852]

The mount menu should be bought and added to the game btw.

[steki.1478]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@"steki.1478" said:How do any of these affect the way you play the game if you're not using them?

Unfair advantage in the sense that other people can exploit faster node runs because they essentially have an overlay that shows them exactly where they are and the fastest path to them where as others have to run around aimlessly until they find them all.

Toxicity bred from some players who use 3rd party tools to check other peoples stats, gear, damage etc and then criticize them for not playing upto "thier level" and maxing their DPS rotations etc when for the most part the players being attacked are only playing for fun and don't care about hitting the expected benchmarks set by the toxic players. (I have personally been on the reciving end of this testing a new build in dungeon content.. seriously.. a DPS elitist in dungeon content.)

Those were the first 2 that came to mind.. there's probably other good reasons.For the most part though I agree with those saying that some of these 3rd party mods are pretty good QOL improvements and they should be implimented into the game.The mount wheel thing for example is a great QOL idea.

With that logic having 2 screens instead of 1 is also an unfair advantage. It's already mentioned in one of the comments on top, among some other "advantages".

If people don't want to be blamed about not pulling their weight/beeing too toxic, maybe they should pick lfg groups suited to their playstyle (that goes for both sides). It doesn't matter if it's a story instance or fractal 100 cm, same rules apply everywhere, don't join where you don't belong and you'll have much better time.

If those features were easy to implement, we'd have them already, but as it seems, making overlays is much easier and/or faster.

[kermq.6258]

@Teratus.2859 said:.The mount wheel thing for example is a great QOL idea.

Why you need a mount wheel i just did bind all my mounts to numpad seems i should be now banned by OP becuse i start my mounts even faster then choosing from a wheel :D and thats advantage against others that didnt do it :bleep_bloop:

[Stalkingwolf.6035]

@aspirine.6852 said:The mount menu should be bought and added to the game btw.

yes it would help players who cant temember shortcuts. i'm faster with only shortcuts.imo one of the biggest problem of gw2. the lack of good UI. It looks good and thats it.

[finkle.9513]

I agree with the OPOptions:

1. Fully Support
2. Ban them, they are not allowed.

Anet should choose and not sit on the fence... they have a nasty habit of this!

[zealex.9410]

Nothing that you say "should be in the base game" needs to be in the base game and id argue not even build templates need to be in the base game.

Addons are there to enhance the game in aspects that would simply take dev resources and time to do so baseline.

Its is far more beneficial to have ppl in communication with anet create such tools and let anet do more of what matters, content, balance etc.

The comment about them offering advantage to those using them is also incredibly stupid. Yes they do make life easier but thats like saying ppl shouldnt have acess to internet because some ppl dont. Obv diff examples and in the case of internet its not a FREE perk (like all the addons have been so far btw) but it only serves to show the flaw within this mindset.

You're allowed to search and ask if Anet allows the use of these addons but if you DONT want to interact with them its not up to you to say that nobody else should either.

The addons are here and are free, use them or not, idc, dont tell me tho what i can and cannot use (obv this excludes stuff like cheat software, actual cheat software, spare me the "having node markers is cheating" arguement when you push for this feature to be in the base game).

Also, "the amount is getting overboard" are you for real? We have like what? 5 addons? Maybe 4 (do graphical enhancing software counts?) compaired to modding and addon scenes of other mmos how is this overboard? And the comment about managing them being a pain down the line when we get more and more. OP, are you familiar with moding and addon managment in games where their number is way way bigger than that of gw2? How do you think they handle things over there?

[zealex.9410]

@Feothyr.6072 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:Toxicity bred from some players who use 3rd party tools to check other peoples stats, gear, damage etc and then criticize them for not playing upto "thier level" and maxing their DPS rotations etc when for the most part the players being attacked are only playing for fun and don't care about hitting the expected benchmarks set by the toxic players. (I have personally been on the reciving end of this testing a new build in dungeon content.. seriously.. a DPS elitist in dungeon content.)

Thank you. I agree. Enabling toxic behaviour shouldn't be allowed.

Then why did they make an MMO?

[Teratus.2859]

@kermq.6258 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:.The mount wheel thing for example is a great QOL idea.

Why you need a mount wheel i just did bind all my mounts to numpad seems i should be now banned by OP becuse i start my mounts even faster then choosing from a wheel :D and thats advantage against others that didnt do it :bleep_bloop:

Macro keys for me but I only got 6 of them and now there's 7 mounts.Considering how many have been added in such a short time overall the wheel would still be a benefit in the long run.

[kermq.6258]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@kermq.6258 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:.The mount wheel thing for example is a great QOL idea.

Why you need a mount wheel i just did bind all my mounts to numpad seems i should be now banned by OP becuse i start my mounts even faster then choosing from a wheel :D and thats advantage against others that didnt do it :bleep_bloop:

Macro keys for me but I only got 6 of them and now there's 7 mounts.Considering how many have been added in such a short time overall the wheel would still be a benefit in the long run.

i got 10 number keys on numpad and mounts starts from 0(griffon) and rest are in order you did get them so 1-raptor 2-springer and so on. But by the OP logic i should be baned becuse i have advantage on others because i start my mounts much faster :D

[Shiyo.3578]

@Gop.8713 said:

@Vyrulisse.1246 said:Tac0 markers are literally in-game advantages and cheating over those that don't have them. Especially for Adventures, Races, Holiday events and Jumping Puzzles.

But the thing is none of those activities are competitive events so it doesn't matter if someone else has an advantage over me. The only exception I can think of is the beetle races where you do actually get more rewards for finishing in the top three. But that's a really marginal example . . .

As to the OP's concern I don't think a compelling case can be made that anet's current policy of allowing everything unless it is banned is demonstrably better (or worse) from a gameplay perspective than the OP's proposed policy of banning everything unless it is allowed. But anet's policy is far superior from a business perspective, saves a lot of time and resources and achieves roughly the same result . . .

Farming gold and gold/hour is ALWAYS a competitive event.