Had a really rough time in my first T4 fractal. Could someone help me out? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Had a really rough time in my first T4 fractal. Could someone help me out?

Scale 81 (Underground Facility)
No Pain, No Gain
Vengeance
Afflicted

I'm a support firebrand using full harrier's and delicious rice ball / bountiful maintenance oil. The rest of the group was an alacrity renegade, tempest, reaper, and daredevil.

We didn't get past the second gate. My main issue was that trash would 1-2 shot me with regular hits or strong condition damage. I felt totally helpless even trying my best to dodge/heal. As for the group's behavior, there was a lot of dying/straggling and people rarely sticking together to try to get to objectives. Not sticking together seems normal from everything I've been through in T3 though so I'm reluctant to blame them. It feels like maybe I just wasn't good enough to deal with catching up to everyone on my own, and I felt extra guilty about other people dying because I couldn't be there to heal them.

For what it's worth, I typically load in last because I have an HDD (not SSD) and I'm usually left behind while trying to catch up and ready my mantras. In hindsight, I should probably ask people to give me a few seconds when we get in but I don't know if that's frustrating for them?

If someone could explain some things to me, that would be great. As it stands, I'm really embarrassed and discouraged and how upset some people were when they left had me feeling awful.

Comments

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    Your reaper should have taken Corrupt Boon (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupt_Boon) or other boon corrupts (being the only class in you composition able to remove/corrupt boons). No Pain, No Gain will buff enemies significantly if not countered, on top of the already heavy boon pressure on Underground Facility.

    This counts double for Vengeance, which enhances enemies even more when they die. Underground Facility has a lot of enemy packs which will receive boons from dying comrades (on top of the boons from No Pain, No Gain and innate boon abilities).

    Afflicted is just the icing on the cake which causes your super buffed enemy group to now apply even more pressure in form of random conditions. You can deal with this as Firebrand by either using your Tome 2, or replace one of your utilities with Mantra of Lore (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Lore), replace Merciful Intervention or if you are running staff over axe, use staff 3 combined with staff 2s blast.

    If you are having survival issues as FB, switch your Honor Grandmaster traits from Writ of Persistence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Writ_of_Persistence) to Force of Will (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Force_of_Will) for both more personal vitality and more burst heal at the cost of sustained heal.

    The group not sticking together means your healing does not reach them, neither do your cleanses. Do this against T4 dredge enemies who are running 3-5 boons from No Pain, No Gain, baseline buffs and Vengeance and every one will have a bad time.

  • Sparkly.9258Sparkly.9258 Member ✭✭

    Thanks so much! Your post really helped me understand what was happening in that fractal and I feel really relieved.

    I do run staff and almost always have Mantra of Lore instead of Merciful Intervention, as I usually don't have issues healing other people. I completely forgot about the staff 3-2 combo field; that'll really help me stop chewing through my first 2 Lore charges so much. I think I'll try running Force of Will for a while as well since I find myself mostly healing people through targeted abilities and mace auto attacks (people often don't stand in my symbols, understandably at times) and the bonus vitality seems nice.

    Again, thank you. You really helped me!

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    Yes, healing on a firebrand can be tricky with the low hit point pool. I wouldn't worry to much, especially if this was your first T4. You will eventually get to know when to aegis, when to block big hits and when to switch into Tome 2 or 3 and so on.

    General setup should be: Mace+Shield and always make sure to be auto attacking with mace, the heal on the third hit is a major source of healing (as is blocking a hit with mace 3). Remember that shield 4 is an additional aegis and shield 5 is a knockback, cc, projectile destruction and when used a second time an area heal.

    Second setup: Axe+Shield (some people use sword) with axe 2 being your groups fury (switch to axe and immediately use 2, then use 2 again before switching back to mace) and axe 3 being a pull (and thus additional cc).

    Alternative second setup: Staff if you want to forego fury in favor of more healing and might. If you are forced into a ranged situation, you can also replace the mace+shield set but since staff should be used as additional healing, this is not recommended. Staff 2 is a strong area heal and blast, staff 3 a symbol for swiftness and blast cleansing, staff 4 is again a strong area heal with might while staff 5 provides an additional light field for blasting.

    Make sure to familiarize yourself with different utility skills and learn when to use your tomes. Tome 3,3 for example and the reflect dome can trivialize a lot of encounters or remove some nasty range pressure. MI, while useful, can often be replaced for useful skills which prevent people from going down in the first place (Stand your Ground, Signet of Mercy, Bow of Truth, Wall of Reflection, Mantra of Lore, Bane Signet, etc. all have their uses).

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Your reaper should have taken Corrupt Boon (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupt_Boon) or other boon corrupts (being the only class in you composition able to remove/corrupt boons). No Pain, No Gain will buff enemies significantly if not countered, on top of the already heavy boon pressure on Underground Facility.

    This counts double for Vengeance, which enhances enemies even more when they die. Underground Facility has a lot of enemy packs which will receive boons from dying comrades (on top of the boons from No Pain, No Gain and innate boon abilities).

    Afflicted is just the icing on the cake which causes your super buffed enemy group to now apply even more pressure in form of random conditions. You can deal with this as Firebrand by either using your Tome 2, or replace one of your utilities with Mantra of Lore (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Lore), replace Merciful Intervention or if you are running staff over axe, use staff 3 combined with staff 2s blast.

    If you are having survival issues as FB, switch your Honor Grandmaster traits from Writ of Persistence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Writ_of_Persistence) to Force of Will (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Force_of_Will) for both more personal vitality and more burst heal at the cost of sustained heal.

    The group not sticking together means your healing does not reach them, neither do your cleanses. Do this against T4 dredge enemies who are running 3-5 boons from No Pain, No Gain, baseline buffs and Vengeance and every one will have a bad time.

    I use well of corruption because of the AoE boon-stripping that happens, and it also happens over time. It's only one boon stripped per pulse, but that can be huge with trash mobs.

    But due to your post, I'm going to consider swapping out another utility (minion) skill for corrupt boon, if BOTH of those boon-adding instabilities are up. Even though I have two boon-strips in my weapon skills, I usually can't keep up if both instabilities are up.

  • Daddicus.6128Daddicus.6128 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sparkly.9258 said:
    Scale 81 (Underground Facility)
    No Pain, No Gain
    Vengeance
    Afflicted

    I'm a support firebrand using full harrier's and delicious rice ball / bountiful maintenance oil. The rest of the group was an alacrity renegade, tempest, reaper, and daredevil.

    We didn't get past the second gate. My main issue was that trash would 1-2 shot me with regular hits or strong condition damage. I felt totally helpless even trying my best to dodge/heal. As for the group's behavior, there was a lot of dying/straggling and people rarely sticking together to try to get to objectives. Not sticking together seems normal from everything I've been through in T3 though so I'm reluctant to blame them. It feels like maybe I just wasn't good enough to deal with catching up to everyone on my own, and I felt extra guilty about other people dying because I couldn't be there to heal them.

    For what it's worth, I typically load in last because I have an HDD (not SSD) and I'm usually left behind while trying to catch up and ready my mantras. In hindsight, I should probably ask people to give me a few seconds when we get in but I don't know if that's frustrating for them?

    If someone could explain some things to me, that would be great. As it stands, I'm really embarrassed and discouraged and how upset some people were when they left had me feeling awful.

    Keep trying. You'll find some pick-up groups better than others. Look for a group with a healer or a support build on one of the other players. At even higher levels, you sometimes need both.

    And, know that tier four is much harder than tier three. Tier three was somewhat harder than tier two, and the same with tier two vs tier one. But, tier four is another level altogether. It takes time to play it well, and playing any kind of specialty-build (like you are) requires working on your skills and timing. Take what Cyninja said to heart.

    I also recommend coming back here and asking again after a couple dozen sessions. Because, in addition to being just plain harder, there are special situations that come up in tier four. (For example, in Shattered Observatory, they add floor tiles that disappear to the final boss.) It can take quite a bit to get used to it.

    Finally, watch for when a player rage-quits. Almost all the time, they complain about some aspect of playing in one or more players. Pay attention to the player that replaces the quitter, and compare to what the quitter was using. I've found this to be quite instructive. Glass cannons that leave and get replaced by either a support character or healer (which the party lacks) can REALLY change things. Make a mental note about what changed and how the party did. Learn from others' mistakes, in other words.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @Daddicus.6128 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Your reaper should have taken Corrupt Boon (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupt_Boon) or other boon corrupts (being the only class in you composition able to remove/corrupt boons). No Pain, No Gain will buff enemies significantly if not countered, on top of the already heavy boon pressure on Underground Facility.

    This counts double for Vengeance, which enhances enemies even more when they die. Underground Facility has a lot of enemy packs which will receive boons from dying comrades (on top of the boons from No Pain, No Gain and innate boon abilities).

    Afflicted is just the icing on the cake which causes your super buffed enemy group to now apply even more pressure in form of random conditions. You can deal with this as Firebrand by either using your Tome 2, or replace one of your utilities with Mantra of Lore (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mantra_of_Lore), replace Merciful Intervention or if you are running staff over axe, use staff 3 combined with staff 2s blast.

    If you are having survival issues as FB, switch your Honor Grandmaster traits from Writ of Persistence (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Writ_of_Persistence) to Force of Will (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Force_of_Will) for both more personal vitality and more burst heal at the cost of sustained heal.

    The group not sticking together means your healing does not reach them, neither do your cleanses. Do this against T4 dredge enemies who are running 3-5 boons from No Pain, No Gain, baseline buffs and Vengeance and every one will have a bad time.

    I use well of corruption because of the AoE boon-stripping that happens, and it also happens over time. It's only one boon stripped per pulse, but that can be huge with trash mobs.

    But due to your post, I'm going to consider swapping out another utility (minion) skill for corrupt boon, if BOTH of those boon-adding instabilities are up. Even though I have two boon-strips in my weapon skills, I usually can't keep up if both instabilities are up.

    It depends a lot on both how much boon pressure is present (No Pain, No gain AND Vengeance means every fractal will require boon removal), see it as every time you remove protection from enemies, you are essentially increasing group damage by 33%. Absolutely vital on fights like Siren's Reef where a swarm of boon enhanced enemies will wreck your day.

    It also depends on who else you are bringing. If your group has a chrono, his sword autos will boon rip baseline. If your chrono switches to Domination and Shattered Concentration, his shatters will remove even more boons. Absolutely sufficient for most normal fractals if timed correctly or just one of the instabilities.

    Unfortunately with new compositions favoring no chrono setups, or subpar setups with solo FB (absolutely fine for normal T4s), it falls to other classes to remove boons.

    When I run Power Reaper (my current funzy go-to class for normal PUG T4s), I usually replace the Shadow Fiend for what ever utility I might need keeping Well of Suffering for weakness and Signet of Spite for increased power. Another good utility to take is Well of Power (or Corrosive Poison Cloud against bullets) for its stability in case no guardian is present. Boss 1 in the Shattered Observatory as well as Arkk both have phases which can make use of stability for the group, especially during CM.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    If you have trouble with harrier FB, take minstrel accessories to train yourself quietly with more armor and vitality. If you are Honor-Virtues, that you do 0.5k dps or 4k, no one cares.
    FB is a very important package, with the right skills you can cancel half the mechanics; don't lock your build and try all skills. Evaluate the needs; anti-proj, stab, healing, condicleanse, loop protection, a little more cc and dps buff, etc and adapt. You should ask first to your war and ren to help cap mights, it will free one trait and a weapon to focus on healing.

    Underground Facility isn't that easy. This is not necesserly your fault, bad groups happen; this is not because party has a healer that players should stop to think and adapt, the tempest should easily tank a slab with earth, magnetic aura ...Same with reaper he can pull mobs, blind them (not the dredge) kill them ... Most of people try to rush the doors and commutator instead of waiting for everybody and clean the first mobs. Use wall of reflection, your F3 tome and renewed focus. Pull some mobs with F1 and axe.
    Last boss; well ... if it's ice elemental ... hope others players don't play eyes closed and can dodge attacks.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    with door, yu mean where one guy stands on a pennel (2 guys, for 2 pannels) so the door opens and allows a other character to channel while he gets protected?

    if so, it's quite easy bt can also fail easy

    if you as melee only character are "forced" to stand on a pedal, and you get zero support cuz the channel guy gets protected by 2!!! then obviously the ranged dredges will shoot you, you go from panel, door closes and you can start from scratch.

    stealth works great, normally when i do underground i'd just log scrapper fast, and sneak gyro it :p cheese mode, but effective then log my bs again

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    Underground Facility will still be a difficult fractal, I wouldn't put yourself down if the unexpected happens.

    Let me state this plainly, if you have been confident in your usual T4 clears for weeks/months and suddenly one run with one particular group you have a catastrophe of a run, it's likely never your fault. It's likely anything such as a bad composition for the instabilities, someone else doing something way off, or a general misunderstanding. Very few actually hit max fractal level to end up being 'carried' there, and even so one group having this issue and you having to give up your entire run isn't on you. Believe in yourself more if you are finding success, or have been proven to have clean runs before.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If YOU, as support FB can adapt, so can your reaper. Personally, when enemy boons are an issue, I switch to curses (scepter 3 with devouring darkness for mass corrupts), blood magic for more party sustain and lower well of corruption cd, axe 3 (if not running gs as reaper). Boons are ripped relatively fast this way. If single target booncorrupting is an issue (eg boss), corrupt boon is a utility i use.

  • Sparkly.9258Sparkly.9258 Member ✭✭

    Wow, I didn't expect so many replies. I appreciate all of the insight! A lot of what you all have said has been pretty helpful. I think I mostly needed encouragement, so this has been really nice. There were also some new tips for me here, and it's nice to learn about one of the several classes I haven't gotten to yet (necromancer).

    There are a lot of replies here and I don't know what to say to most of them, but I wanted to show my appreciation to the people who continued to add to this. So thanks!

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2019

    Its not clear to me where you guys got stuck. Typically ppl have trouble during the part where they stand on switches, and 1 person channels a long skill to unlock the door, but that is the third door not the second. Its hard for me to understand you getting stuck at the second door, so I'm gona give advice for the third door:stealth.

    Preferably everyone in your party has these:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Harpy_Feathers_(consumable)
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Order_of_Whispers_Spy_Kit
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ash_Legion_Spy_Kit

    And they can self stealth, the only exception is the person channeling the door, the 10 second legion spy kit isn't long enough for them, but a theif with shadow refuge or a engi that quickly swaps for sneak gyro will work great for that. Alternatively if you have a druid, the druid can put some stealth on the channeler (I don't know the pet names off the top of my head sorry).

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Smokescale and blast the field.

  • Kahlan.7249Kahlan.7249 Member ✭✭
    edited May 19, 2019

    We didn't get past the second gate. My main issue was that trash would 1-2 shot me with regular hits or strong condition damage. I felt totally helpless even trying my best to dodge/heal. As for the group's behavior, there was a lot of dying/straggling and people rarely sticking together to try to get to objectives. Not sticking together seems normal from everything I've been through in T3 though so I'm reluctant to blame them. It feels like maybe I just wasn't good enough to deal with catching up to everyone on my own, and I felt extra guilty about other people dying because I couldn't be there to heal them.

    For what it's worth, I typically load in last because I have an HDD (not SSD) and I'm usually left behind while trying to catch up and ready my mantras. In hindsight, I should probably ask people to give me a few seconds when we get in but I don't know if that's frustrating for them?

    ahh i feel like that's the problem @[email protected]

    my biggest pet peeve is when people rush waaaay ahead of everyone, and then die by themselves in like two seconds, leaving the rest of the group to four-man or three-man or whatever

    like people running allll the way to the gate in urban battleground, while firebrand is still charging mantras and waiting to preboon at the mistlock x__x

    have a few of these people in the dredge fractal w/ bad instabs, and the beginning of the dredge one can b ruff, since it already requires a minimum of 3-4 (ok technically can be done w/ less but y'know what i mean) in a regular pug group to complete

    you should absolutely remind them to stick w/ you; they should practice having more awareness, look around and see that everyone's moved/loaded in/grabbed the mistlock/charged mantras/whatever before heading off and moving in unison, clearing mobs together etc

    also, are you keeping protection up? hold the line + tome 3 are nice sources of protection, and it can also be nice to cc mobs w/ skill 3 in tome 1, and axe 3 (if you're running axe)

    mai trin farm 2k19, the place to be--- sparky skell alex radomir ghastly lisa frank qante mercy bacon cat aj nay ++ and yours truly, me :')

  • Sparkly.9258Sparkly.9258 Member ✭✭
    edited May 23, 2019

    I came back to update everyone who has helped me. I went into T4s again with a group for all of the dailies and the recs. It only took us ~42 minutes and no one was downed the entire time. The group was extremely friendly, tried to stick together, and I noticed people using a lot of utility skills to protect each other. It was really nice!

    @thrag.9740 & @melandru.3876 I wanted to clarify since you two asked:
    Yes, it was the third door, sorry. I was frustrated at the time and thought of it as the bit just beyond the second door, so I worded it awkwardly. Stealth sounds helpful, I'll look into that and try to remember to ask if other people in the party have it available. Thanks!

    Edit: I also wanted to say that I have carefully read everything everyone has posted. I just don't respond to everyone because there's a lot!

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sparkly.9258 said:
    I came back to update everyone who has helped me. I went into T4s again with a group for all of the dailies and the recs. It only took us ~32 minutes and no one was downed the entire time. The group was extremely friendly, tried to stick together, and I noticed people using a lot of utility skills to protect each other. It was really nice!

    @thrag.9740 & @melandru.3876 I wanted to clarify since you two asked:
    Yes, it was the third door, sorry. I was frustrated at the time and thought of it as the bit just beyond the second door, so I worded it awkwardly. Stealth sounds helpful, I'll look into that and try to remember to ask if other people in the party have it available. Thanks!

    Edit: I also wanted to say that I have carefully read everything everyone has posted. I just don't respond to everyone because there's a lot!

    81 goes as follows

    you start, and 1 guy goes up to open the door for the remaining 4 (that clear mobs in the time waiting)
    once the door is open, the 4 guys head in. and 1/4 (preferably warrior/mesmer/thief) goes up the ramp again and opens the door for the fifth guy (that went up to open first door)
    aswell as the 3 other guys, that will now clear mobs, and stand on 1 push-button each side to open the backdoor so guy 4 and 5 can join.

    standing on the push-buttons, opens the channel-console in the front. any damage received by the channeler breaks the channels.

    having melee only classes on the push-buttons is asking for a fail. the dredge have ranged troops that will just shoot your melee that are sitting ducks.
    they can't move off the push-button or the channel-door closes, and they can't fight back.

    as i allready said, the easiest way is just having a character stacked in stealth (mesmer, thief or engi) doing the channel, while u divide the remaining 4 guys in pairs of 2 on the push-buttons
    so warrior + healer on left side
    dps 1 + chrono on right side (this is basic pug set-up, just globalising it)

    and have your stealth class channel it through stealth. works like a charm on scrapper with sneak gyro.

    once done, the door opens and you have either bomb carry phase(need to deliver 9 bombs)
    or
    shoot door with laser face

    both are easy, should be zero issues

    this opens up the way to a "miniboss" a dredge champion that is of zero issue.
    kill it, another walls blows open and you'll have to walk through a tunnel to the final encounter

    the mobs you see in the tunnel decide what boss you fight>
    dredge = easy boss
    ice lementals = harder boss

    to kill the boss youd rag it to a kettle, have 1 guy above and pull the lever. boss will get a debuff (taking increased damage) and you wtfpwn it
    shouldn't take more then 3 kettles

    both are easy, aslong as you pay attention to boss animations (ice elemental has 2 point blank aoe's that deal heavy damage if you face-tank them)
    they can be evaded/sidestepped just fine, you want to lose as low time as possible, so just a slight sidestep and get back on boss.
    every second counts.

    good groups kill it in 2 kettles, terrible groups have to rotate the entire map 7 times :p

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @Sparkly.9258 said:
    I came back to update everyone who has helped me. I went into T4s again with a group for all of the dailies and the recs. It only took us ~32 minutes and no one was downed the entire time. The group was extremely friendly, tried to stick together, and I noticed people using a lot of utility skills to protect each other. It was really nice!

    @thrag.9740 & @melandru.3876 I wanted to clarify since you two asked:
    Yes, it was the third door, sorry. I was frustrated at the time and thought of it as the bit just beyond the second door, so I worded it awkwardly. Stealth sounds helpful, I'll look into that and try to remember to ask if other people in the party have it available. Thanks!

    Edit: I also wanted to say that I have carefully read everything everyone has posted. I just don't respond to everyone because there's a lot!

    81 goes as follows

    you start, and 1 guy goes up to open the door for the remaining 4 (that clear mobs in the time waiting)
    once the door is open, the 4 guys head in. and 1/4 (preferably warrior/mesmer/thief) goes up the ramp again and opens the door for the fifth guy (that went up to open first door)
    aswell as the 3 other guys, that will now clear mobs, and stand on 1 push-button each side to open the backdoor so guy 4 and 5 can join.

    standing on the push-buttons, opens the channel-console in the front. any damage received by the channeler breaks the channels.

    having melee only classes on the push-buttons is asking for a fail. the dredge have ranged troops that will just shoot your melee that are sitting ducks.
    they can't move off the push-button or the channel-door closes, and they can't fight back.

    as i allready said, the easiest way is just having a character stacked in stealth (mesmer, thief or engi) doing the channel, while u divide the remaining 4 guys in pairs of 2 on the push-buttons
    so warrior + healer on left side
    dps 1 + chrono on right side (this is basic pug set-up, just globalising it)

    It is also way easier with a chrono + anyone with a blink.
    Optimal would look like this:
    Someone starts running up the left stairs to first button. Rest 4 wait and start blasting a smoke field for stealth when he made like 1/3 of the way and start running aswell. Chrono starts chaining his stealth skills on the way down with the increases duration trait and resets cd's at mistlock to do the same again.
    Another player with a blink teleports to 2nd button from below to let the other 3 players in. The chrono runs to the console and starts channelling while the other 2 run to the buttons and wait there stealthed. The guys running to the buttons can just gg once everyone passes the gates.
    You dont have to kill anyone that way and it has a 100% success rate once the chrono learnt how to stack stealth.