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Balance is terrible.I don't think mesmer are treated fairly


ZeteCommander.4937

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Forgive me for my poor English. I have used translation tools to complete these contents.Because I can't stand this bad balance.Now the mesmer is too bad, dull and weak.It seems that players have only one way to play, Shatter and shatter and shatter...Balance teams don't realize what the problem is,not elite traits,not core traits, not weapons, it's shatter that really needs to be corrected. elite shouldn't have the same shatter skills as core.If Anet want mirages not to cause too much burst damag that should fundamentally change the f1-F4 and give the mirage enough survival instead of constantly nerf mirages.A mirage should focus on its own special abilities rather than having the same shatter as core.Shatter should be replaced with skills that give vigor .Chronomancer should focus on phantasm and alacrity ,the shatter that distinguish core.Elite should lose its original ability after gaining an advantage.Now it's all a mess, except shatter!core and all of elite are all in a mess, each nerf is more serious than the last one.Illusionists, Destructive nerf will only make the illusionist impossible to play, not for balance.So far, I don't want to play GW2 anymore unless there are some positive changes or allow players to re-select roles. (I like my Characters,I don't want my Characters to be treated unfairly)

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I agree that both Chrono and Mirage should have different shatters.

Challenge of course being how to integrate the shatter traits with new F skills - but if eg F1 for mirage was "order clones to launch super powerful ambush" then shatter traits like mtd/bd/ma etc could be applied on hit of this attack, and traits providing boons/healing etc to the player could take immediate effect upon using the F skill as they do now.

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@"Curunen.8729" said:I agree that both Chrono and Mirage should have different shatters.

Challenge of course being how to integrate the shatter traits with new F skills - but if eg F1 for mirage was "order clones to launch super powerful ambush" then shatter traits like mtd/bd/ma etc could be applied on hit of this attack, and traits providing boons/healing etc to the player could take immediate effect upon using the F skill as they do now.

While it would emphasize Clone gameplay I don't feel a playstyle that requires a basically 100% Clone uptime is desirable. I'd rather see F1-4 give an Ambush window or even Mirage Cloak by default and that the damage/functionality of the shatter was baked into the Ambush attack (actually way more Thief-like than what we have right now).

However, I'm very indecisive what I'd like Mirrors to be like. They're pretty and I don't see ANet remove them... but mechanically they're just so... meeeh.

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@Xaylin.1860 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:I agree that both Chrono and Mirage should have different shatters.

Challenge of course being how to integrate the shatter traits with new F skills - but if eg F1 for mirage was "order clones to launch super powerful ambush" then shatter traits like mtd/bd/ma etc could be applied on hit of this attack, and traits providing boons/healing etc to the player could take immediate effect upon using the F skill as they do now.

While it would emphasize Clone gameplay I don't feel a playstyle that requires a basically 100% Clone uptime is desirable. I'd rather see F1-4 give an Ambush window or even Mirage Cloak by default and that the damage/functionality of the shatter was baked into the Ambush attack (actually way more Thief-like than what we have right now).

However, I'm very indecisive what I'd like Mirrors to be like. They're pretty and I don't see ANet remove them... but mechanically they're just so... meeeh.

My idea about this for Mirage.

1) Remove that largely useless trait that makes clones into mirrors on one shatter only.2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.3) In addition to the current functions of Mirrors (trigger Mirage Cloak when Mirage touches it) add the following function to Mirage Mirrors;Enemies that touch the mirror take [whatever current single clone F1 shatter damage is] damage and gain 3 stacks of Confusion (3 second duration), this will not grant the Mirage the Dune Cloak effect.

In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

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@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:My idea about this for Mirage.

2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

So, instead of targeted confusion, instant daze and invulnerability; you get a "oh, wait a bit, let me get my mirrors first ^_^"?

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@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Kylden Ar.3724" said:My idea about this for Mirage.

2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

So, instead of targeted confusion, instant daze and invulnerability; you get a "oh, wait a bit, let me get my mirrors first ^_^"?

Yeah, it's called trade offs, that we should have for these things. Because if you can have up to 5 or 6 mirrors on the field at a time, that's a LOT of Dune Cloak.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:My idea about this for Mirage.

2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

So, instead of targeted confusion, instant daze and invulnerability; you get a "oh, wait a bit, let me get my mirrors first ^_^"?

Yeah, it's called trade offs, that we should have for these things. Because if you can have up to 5 or 6 mirrors on the field at a time, that's a LOT of Dune Cloak.Trade off = you give something, you take something . Mirage gets downgraded evade(the only thing its better at is being usable in CC,which is they forgot to delete to stop a lot of QQ prematurely) with weak ambush skills that unable to be covered and put you into risk of being cucked closer to the end of the cast and lower damage than warrior unblockable evade ... Are you sure thats great idea to force players to pick up damn mirrors?
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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:My idea about this for Mirage.

2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

So, instead of targeted confusion, instant daze and invulnerability; you get a "oh, wait a bit, let me get my mirrors first ^_^"?

Yeah, it's called trade offs, that we should have for these things. Because if you can have up to 5 or 6 mirrors on the field at a time, that's a LOT of Dune Cloak.

While I do agree that sth. should be done to Shatters you can't simply remove them. It breaks numerous traits for Mirage (Chronomancer respectively) if there are no F1-4.

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I like the idea of mirage having "super ambushes" instead of shatters, as long as they're properly balanced so they're not useless without clones. Then you could turn self-deception into "each shatter creates 1 clone on activation" to help with clone uptime and desert distortion into "each shatter creates a mirage mirror in your location after a short delay" to make mirage mirrors work with all the shatters without being overpowered.

As for mirage mirrors, considering mirage is kinda like the mesmer-thief fusion, I would like them to work like thief's shadowstep/sword 2, in other words, give us a F5 skill that lets us teleport back to the last mirror created and shatter it (or something similar). And since we're talking about F skills, give core mesmer a special F5 shatter just like core rev got a new F2 instead of the elite specs getting nerfed.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Curunen.8729" said:I agree that both Chrono and Mirage should have different shatters.

Challenge of course being how to integrate the shatter traits with new F skills - but if eg F1 for mirage was "order clones to launch super powerful ambush" then shatter traits like mtd/bd/ma etc could be applied on hit of this attack, and traits providing boons/healing etc to the player could take immediate effect upon using the F skill as they do now.

While it would emphasize Clone gameplay I don't feel a playstyle that requires a basically 100% Clone uptime is desirable. I'd rather see F1-4 give an Ambush window or even Mirage Cloak by default and that the damage/functionality of the shatter was baked into the Ambush attack (actually way more Thief-like than what we have right now).

However, I'm very indecisive what I'd like Mirrors to be like. They're pretty and I don't see ANet remove them... but mechanically they're just so... meeeh.

My idea about this for Mirage.

1) Remove that largely useless trait that makes clones into mirrors on one shatter only.2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.3) In addition to the current functions of Mirrors (trigger Mirage Cloak when Mirage touches it) add the following function to Mirage Mirrors;Enemies that touch the mirror take [whatever current single clone F1 shatter damage is] damage and gain 3 stacks of Confusion (3 second duration), this will not grant the Mirage the Dune Cloak effect.

In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

I think you have a good idea. Both players have counter-measures.In addition, I think ‘’break target‘’ should be integrated into all cloning features,Experienced players are not fooled by bad AI(clone) at all.

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OP must be new because .... balance has been this way since day 1 and I don't anticipate any reason for Anet to change it because of what people think of it.

It's not about what balance teams don't know or recognize ... it's that players impose their own vision of what balance is in a game where it isn't.

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@Obtena.7952 said:OP must be new because .... balance has been this way since day 1 and I don't anticipate any reason for Anet to change it because of what people think of it.

It's not about what balance teams don't know or recognize ... it's that players impose their own vision of what balance is in a game where it isn't.

You could say that players also impose that vision onto others. When the forums cry loud enough. Anet acts.and they act harshly with out forethought

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@Solori.6025 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:OP must be new because .... balance has been this way since day 1 and I don't anticipate any reason for Anet to change it because of what people think of it.

It's not about what balance teams don't know or recognize ... it's that players impose their own vision of what balance is in a game where it isn't.

You could say that players also impose that vision onto others. When the forums cry loud enough. Anet acts.and they act harshly with out forethought

I think it's a mistake to think Anet reacts because people complain on the forums ... if that was true, it doesn't happen very often that's for sure. I also don't think we can assume Anet doesn't act without thinking. Yes, there are examples where there are some harsh implementations, but they certain have shown through how they explain why they are doing things that it's not done without though.

At another level, even if they do react harshly because of forum QQ ... then there isn't much we can do about that is there? EVeryone QQ's about almost every change ... if you believe that it's because of forum QQ, the only way to fix that is to shut down the forums. I really don't think you would see much difference in how Anet does things if that happened.

If players enter a game (any game) with certain ideas of how things should work, you can be assured they will not question if they have the right ideas; they will always point to the game devs as the source of whats 'wrong' with the game. As long as Anet's vision is different than what players think, that will ALWAYS be the case. Players will ALWAYS think they have the 'right' ideas.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:OP must be new because .... balance has been this way since day 1 and I don't anticipate any reason for Anet to change it because of what people think of it.

It's not about what balance teams don't know or recognize ... it's that players impose their own vision of what balance is in a game where it isn't.

You could say that players also impose that vision onto others. When the forums cry loud enough. Anet acts.and they act harshly with out forethought

I think it's a mistake to think Anet reacts because people complain on the forums ... if that was true, it doesn't happen very often that's for sure.I think it happens a lot honestly, but that's a discussion in and of itself.

I also don't think we can assume Anet doesn't act without thinking. Yes, there are examples where there are some harsh implementations, but they certain have shown through how they explain why they are doing things that it's not done without though.

I think they absolutely implement something without thinking of the long term ramifications.Examples of this are Elusive Mind nerfs and design.Dueling trait nerfs and designMirage cloak nerfs and design.And those are just the most recent examples.They essentially nerf traits and/or weapons and then essentially kill off that option as an optimal or even viable choice.Going back to Elusive mind.- This trait could be redesigned many many ways, and not only did we give feedback as to why it was a bad idea. When it came time to addressing the trait. They absolutely killed it. No one uses that trait for a reason. This has left Mirage with one GM trait worth the slot and Anet either refuses to revisit or revise the Grandmaster line.These and similar issues can absolutely be avoided if someone simply sits down and thinks about the long term of the class and having a thorough discussion before implementing it.

At another level, even if they do react harshly because of forum QQ ... then there isn't much we can do about that is there? EVeryone QQ's about almost every change ... if you believe that it's because of forum QQ, the only way to fix that is to shut down the forums.

Actually a better solution would be for Anet to think about what is being QQ'd about. Test what is being QQ'd about, both against and with said whatever. Then make a design change that A. Logically addresses the issue and B. Doesn't leave aspects of a class dead for years until a complete revision can be done.Anet leaves themselves about 3 or so months to come up with logical balance changes, and it seems like every change is done 3 weeks prior, with no testing or direction.

I'll give another example.I think we are all familiar with the patch notes in which Anet stated " We want the Mirage to excel in longer combat engagements."Then in the same patch they nerfed defenses needed to excel in longer combat engagements.

I can't say that after things like that happen, that a group of people actually sat down and had a discussion. An actual thorough discussion about the direction or longevity of a class

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:OP must be new because .... balance has been this way since day 1 and I don't anticipate any reason for Anet to change it because of what people think of it.

It's not about what balance teams don't know or recognize ... it's that players impose their own vision of what balance is in a game where it isn't.

You could say that players also impose that vision onto others. When the forums cry loud enough. Anet acts.and they act harshly with out forethought

I think it's a mistake to think Anet reacts because people complain on the forums ... if that was true, it doesn't happen very often that's for sure. I also don't think we can assume Anet doesn't act without thinking. Yes, there are examples where there are some harsh implementations, but they certain have shown through how they explain why they are doing things that it's not done without though.

At another level, even if they do react harshly because of forum QQ ... then there isn't much we can do about that is there? EVeryone QQ's about almost every change ... if you believe that it's because of forum QQ, the only way to fix that is to shut down the forums. I really don't think you would see much difference in how Anet does things if that happened.

If players enter a game (any game) with certain ideas of how things should work, you can be assured they will not question if they have the right ideas; they will always point to the game devs as the source of whats 'wrong' with the game. As long as Anet's vision is different than what players think, that will ALWAYS be the case. Players will ALWAYS think they have the 'right' ideas.

Some of the changes are obviously the developer's mistake. Designers have proposed the desired results but obviously failed to achieve them. For example, are mirages really good at sustained combat?

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They are excellent at sustained combat (though I think you need to tell us what that means). It's almost stupid how easy it is to play a Mirage in any situation. With the right build, you literally have to work to get killed.

Regardless, it doesn't change what I said. Sure devs make some mistakes, but how they balance the game isn't one of them. Just because you don't like how they do it doesn't mean it's a mistake. Again, don't impose your own ideas of how the game should work; only you will always be wrong if you do that.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:'Mesmers treated poorly'?I do not think so

[snip biased videos]

Yes, because the amount of skill and practice that takes (and the number of edits where they don't show you where it didn't work) is totally inline with Hammer Rev pressing 2 on cooldown or Longbow Soulbeast pressing 4 and then 2 on cooldown.

Don't waste your time. He's just gonna throw a quote at you and say something vaguely irritating about how Mesmer is 'toxic' then never explain what he means.

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@EpicTurtle.8571 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:'Mesmers treated poorly'?I do not think so

[snip biased videos]

Yes, because the amount of skill and practice that takes (and the number of edits where they don't show you where it didn't work) is totally inline with Hammer Rev pressing 2 on cooldown or Longbow Soulbeast pressing 4 and then 2 on cooldown.

Don't waste your time. He's just gonna throw a quote at you and say something vaguely irritating about how Mesmer is 'toxic' then never explain what he means.

Or post a vid from 2015 or early, he has a long time vendetta against mesmers and thieves.

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@Obtena.7952 said:They are excellent at sustained combat (though I think you need to tell us what that means). It's almost stupid how easy it is to play a Mirage in any situation. With the right build, you literally have to work to get killed.Enlighten us about such absurdly good build where you have to work to get killed, will you ?Regardless, it doesn't change what I said. Sure devs make some mistakes, but how they balance the game isn't one of them. Just because you don't like how they do it doesn't mean it's a mistake. Again, don't impose your own ideas of how the game should work; only you will always be wrong if you do that.All you said is : I blindly believe anet know better than anyone what they do !Mirage had too long evade...? How do we solve the problem...? Shall we give 0.75s duraiton which we will give them eventually...?

  • No, lets nerf core weapon that was left alone since 2013, probably this was the reason !
  • Not enough, lets gut on crit vigor trait which many classes share in cooldown in duration and mirage vigor...
  • Bob, I think it doesnt work...
  • Okay lets make MC 0.75s and leave all the nerfs.CP alone caused clutter and double benefits from on phantasm summon traits,but because they couldnt come up with a new trait they decided to nerf core phantasms/utilities and only then CP.In other words instead go for overperforming elite they would rather nerf core first and as the last measure - elite spec. (50% nerf values... Love them)
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@praqtos.9035 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:They are excellent at sustained combat (though I think you need to tell us what that means). It's almost stupid how easy it is to play a Mirage in any situation. With the right build, you literally have to work to get killed.Enlighten us about such absurdly good build where you have to work to get killed, will you ?

Step 1. Search for open world domination in Mesmer forumStep 2. make buildStep 3 ... enjoy soloing champion bounties

And yes, Anet know better than anyone else ... because it's their game to design and build around their ideas, not the ideas of players. There isn't a right or wrong here. There is a vision that Anet has for how the game works. If your vision isn't like that one, it means nothing.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:They are excellent at sustained combat (though I think you need to tell us what that means). It's almost stupid how easy it is to play a Mirage in any situation. With the right build, you literally have to work to get killed.Enlighten us about such absurdly good build where you have to work to get killed, will you ?

Step 1. Search for open world domination in Mesmer forumStep 2. make buildStep 3 ... enjoy soloing champion bountiesThe entire thread is about... PvP or may be at least WvW? Dont understand at all what made you think its about pve.I'm bothered by PvP, not WvW but they dont have any splits between game modes.

Nice edit bruh but this:

because it's their game to design and build around their ideas, not the ideas of playersThey took whining side as their way of balance. Just as F3->became stun was @"Lincolnbeard.1735" idea.All nerfs on mesmer were brought by players complaining all around, calling themselves knowledgable community, rofl. "Nerf this thing and mirage is perfect!" and this repeated itself all the time they got nerfed thing they wanted, torch, jaunt, signet of midnight, illusionary ambush, confusion, portal, axe ambush, mirage evade. Dont believe me? Look for the threads on your own if you want

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