It's time to start banning addons and 3rd party tools

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"serialkicker.5274" said:Every time I hear guildie say to another when we do guild missions "hey, just use taco, it will show you the path and all traps for race", I have to roll my eyes. When you can't bother to play the game, it's time to stop and do something else.Reminds me of a friend who came from WoW and complained how easy few skills gw2 has and thus it's boring and easy. He forgot he put his entire rotation on a single button in WoW, because pressing multiple buttons in a video game that you're playing for fun is apparently too much these days.

And there is nothing wrong with feeling that way. I know players who object to ever using the wiki, vids, or any online guide to complete a collection. "Whats the fun if you just look at a list of screenshots and go to pick up that item, better to play the game!". That's a valid viewpoint and preference, but that's all it is.

Players who consult the wiki or Dulfy's site for a walkthrough aren't any less than players who do not.

But what we are talking about on this thread is someone thinking they have the right to tell OTHER players what they can or cannot do, based on how they interpret the game and its design.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@"Crackmonster.2790" said:These addons are undermining the core qualities of the game.You'll have to explain how they do that, especially since ANet doesn't agree.

as soon as we start to go into complicated macros,Complicated "macros" are forbidden, independent of the tool used to create them.

addons that show you everywhere you need to go(giving you real tangible advantages) etc we have a problem.They don't. An overlay (which is not only permitted, by namedropped by ANet) can only show the same things that are available to people on the official wiki or dulfy or any other GW2 guide out there.If anything, they help reduce the information gap, because they make the routes accessible to more people. That's better for buyers.

And don't dare claim they don't give a real advantageI'm stating that you haven't backed your claim that they give a real advantage.

that's the very reason they are used to gain advantage, if they didnt you wouldn't be pulling all your bad excuses out trying to make them look irrelevant.You're confusing "giving advantage" (ANet's threshold) with "beneficially." Of course they are helpful. The point is that they aren't making it possible for someone to do something that the game doesn't already allow.

Elsewhere on the forums, there's a player who posted their video on completing Dragonfall map in under 10 minutes. They did this on their own. Here's what happens next:

• I can find my own route (as others posting in that thread have done)
• I can watch the video & mimic the route
• I can stop|start the video and make a map of the route, with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back and follow that.
• I can wait for someone else to make such a map and use that
• I can wait for someone else to publish the route via an overlay tool.

Why is that last one objectionable to you? What "gameplay advantage" does that have over any of the ones before it?

All who gain power are afraid to lose it.What does that have to do with the topic? Without the tools, any "power" for following routes belongs to those who are spatially ept (rather than inept, like myself) and if they wanted to maintain it, they would be (like yourself) against such tools.

It's a matter of principle of a clean gaming environmentSure, I'm all for that. You have yet to explain how add-ons interfere with clean gaming.

The people who pay the price are the honest players, who doesn't wanna use programs to cheat and simplify the game.There are "honest" players who use add-ons.

There are also "purists" who choose to avoid any such tools. The thing is: a strict purist wouldn't even post on the forums, because that would be gaining an advantage over those who don't choose to post (or read). A true purist wouldn't look at the wiki or ANet's blog. They would just play the game and turn off /map, to avoid accidentally learning anything that couldn't be discovered within Tyria itself.

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:I don't think I understand what you mean. Who are you competing with and how does their behavior affect your outcomes . . ?A lot of the player base, because everyone is farming gold.

"Anyone can use the addons it's not ok to ban them!!" is not a good argument. Everyone has access to bots and hacks, should we not ban them too? No, your game needs to be moderated and Anet is completely ignoring the out of control addon situation that is only going to get worse and worse the more they ignore it.

I mean, you already have people who think it's not against the rules to use these addons because Anet has ignored it for so long - that's all the proof you need to see it's an issue.

There is a very simple truth in this video game's moderation process, or any game's really. If a developer says something is not breaking their rules, that something is not breaking the rules. If you, a random player, says that same something is breaking rules....well nobody cares. Quite a revelation isn't it?

The most efficient way to finally impose your own rules on a game is to make one. There are plenty of open-source engines to help you start with that, just remember to ban any helpful community add-ons when you have it up and running. Best of luck!

[keenedge.9675]

Damage meters(these are fine tbh though)Why are those fine? If add-ons are bad (and DPS meters are definitely add-ons), what is different about a DPS meter?FWIW, when I was being taught, timing a Dolyak kill in Frostgorge was the best way. A friend stands there and you practice and adjust ...

[Ashen.2907]

@Gop.8713 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Vyrulisse.1246 said:Tac0 markers are literally in-game advantages and cheating over those that don't have them. Especially for Adventures, Races, Holiday events and Jumping Puzzles.

But the thing is none of those activities are competitive events so it doesn't matter if someone else has an advantage over me. The only exception I can think of is the beetle races where you do actually get more rewards for finishing in the top three. But that's a really marginal example . . .

As to the OP's concern I don't think a compelling case can be made that anet's current policy of allowing everything unless it is banned is demonstrably better (or worse) from a gameplay perspective than the OP's proposed policy of banning everything unless it is allowed. But anet's policy is far superior from a business perspective, saves a lot of time and resources and achieves roughly the same result . . .

Farming gold and gold/hour is

ALWAYS

a competitive event.

I don't think I understand what you mean. Who are you competing with and how does their behavior affect your outcomes . . ?

I disagree with the premise of the thread.

But

GW2's economy is competitive. If some people increase the supply of something (whether mats or gold) in circulation then the value of that something generally goes down. This means that those using less efficient means of acquisition see an effective reduction in the value of their income or holdings.

You see this effect nearly every time a farm with a yield that outstrips previous income streams is discovered.

But, again, I disagree with the premise that these addons contribute to this in any meaningful way.

[Crackmonster.2790]

I'm sorry that too long of a wall of denial for me to answer. I don't got that much time.

They undermine by removing the experience the game is set up to give players, if you were meant to have everything mapped out and shown for you, they would have done that.

[Khisanth.2948]

@Crackmonster.2790 said:No, i'm just saying i'm okay with them. It's such an integrated and belowed part of mmo's today, that i think it would be stupid to try to ban them.

Stuff telling you everywhere you need to go, giving you clear advantages and shortcuts and undermining the intended way to interact with the game is something else entirely. It's destroying the soul of the game. And the honest player pays the price.

Hands down i think dps meter and improved mounting should be baseline in the game.

Then they should delete the wiki as well.

No idea how they can possibly deal with the videos and other websites that are around though ...

[Crackmonster.2790]

Nope. Youre only seeing black and white.

I realize this is never going to happen, but essentially i agree with the mindset. And in the end people are predictable like sheep, if was not possible they would adjust and that's just that.

People just want more. More. MOOORE. And never turn back. Getting less is so upsetting to people. Doesn't always lead to a healthier game, but the masses always want MOAR. Less brain required = win in most people's eyes. Immersion what it is, all we are know be paper stats.

[Shiyo.3578]

"Anyone can use the addons too!" isn't a valid argument. That just makes it become the standard and what's expected of you.

[Ashen.2907]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:"Anyone can use the addons too!" isn't a valid argument. That just makes it become the standard and what's expected of you.

Do you use them?

[Jamtaur.9628]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@kermq.6258 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@kermq.6258 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:.The mount wheel thing for example is a great QOL idea.

Why you need a mount wheel i just did bind all my mounts to numpad seems i should be now banned by OP becuse i start my mounts even faster then choosing from a wheel :D and thats advantage against others that didnt do it :bleep_bloop:

Macro keys for me but I only got 6 of them and now there's 7 mounts.Considering how many have been added in such a short time overall the wheel would still be a benefit in the long run.

i got 10 number keys on numpad and mounts starts from 0(griffon) and rest are in order you did get them so 1-raptor 2-springer and so on. But by the OP logic i should be baned becuse i have advantage on others because i start my mounts much faster :D

Well macros allowed ment only one action per key, swaping mount envolves several actions that u have in one key.

;)Game should allow its own shortcuts

but.... it does.... it's literally in options --> controls.... you can set up keys to activate specific mounts.

[kharmin.7683]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Gop.8713 said:I don't think I understand what you mean. Who are you competing with and how does their behavior affect your outcomes . . ?A lot of the player base, because everyone is farming gold.How, specifically, does another player farming gold impact one's ability to play the game? The only thing I see is that some players can convert gold to gems faster and get stuff from the gem store ... which doesn't affect other players' abilities to play the game in the least.

I fail to understand the OP's point of this thread.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Crackmonster.2790 said:I'm sorry that too long ... for me to answer.Here's the short version, then:

• You made several claims.
• You backed none of them up with evidence or even analysis.
• You then insist that one way of looking at the situation is valid and all others need not be discussed.

---

I don't got that much time.You had plenty of time to post so far. Why not take a little more time to clarify?

of a wall of denialSeems as if you've chosen to deny the actual facts:

• ANet doesn't think add-ons violate the terms of service.
• Some of the add-ons critiqued do not do anything that cannot be achieved with alt-tab.

[Kanok.3027]

You know, by the logic of the OP, they need to ban me for knowing were all the good nodes are for farming gold, or even for knowing all the routes for JP's and in SAB so I can make my money quickly. My brain is apparently something that can be used to gain an advantage over them.

Phew...can we get this thread closed now?

[Obtena.7952]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:"Anyone can use the addons too!" isn't a valid argument. That just makes it become the standard and what's expected of you.

Maybe, maybe not ... what I do know is that Anet isn't ignoring 3rd party add ons and it's not an issue that they exist and people can use them. The fact that everyone has access to use them isn't an unreasonable argument ... you can choose to use them or not and if they were a problem for Anet, we know they would address it. I mean, it's rather silly to think that somehow something like ArcDPS would be some 'standard' that people would expect you to use ... it affects no one if you use it. In otherwords, no one would care so no, it wouldn't be expected you run it. Same for most of the other add-ons. They are QoL in most cases ... no one cares if you use them.

[Tiviana.2650]

@Shiyo.3578 said:This is only the beginning. As Anet continues to ignore these 3rd party tools, they will only get more complex and automate more things until we have people with full-fledged bots being commonly shared between most players of the player base.

Source: FFXIThis EXACT thing happened in that game, and now it's overrun with bots, hacks, etc. The developers simply turned a blind eye and now it's too late to fix it.I do not want the exact same thing happening to this game.

Wake up Anet.

Umm there are bots and hacks in this game, and its not because of addons.

@Shiyo.3578 said:"Anyone can use the addons too!" isn't a valid argument. That just makes it become the standard and what's expected of you.

No one expects you to use anything, how would they know anyway. The only time something like dps meters comes up is in a raid, where yes contribution matters as well as your managements of buffs boons, how well you stay out of the goo. yes it matters. If you arent running that content no one cares if you have addons or not. Addons are personal use them or dont.

[Gop.8713]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Gop.8713 said:I don't think I understand what you mean. Who are you competing with and how does their behavior affect your outcomes . . ?A lot of the player base, because everyone is farming gold.But that doesn't hurt you. It's true many players farm gold or other things while many others do not. If you choose to farm, other players also farming do not hinder your effort. It's frequently the opposite, other players farming scales the farm to increase loots or makes the farm easier or more profitable in other ways . . .@Ashen.2907 said:@Gop.8713 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Vyrulisse.1246 said:Tac0 markers are literally in-game advantages and cheating over those that don't have them. Especially for Adventures, Races, Holiday events and Jumping Puzzles.

But the thing is none of those activities are competitive events so it doesn't matter if someone else has an advantage over me. The only exception I can think of is the beetle races where you do actually get more rewards for finishing in the top three. But that's a really marginal example . . .

As to the OP's concern I don't think a compelling case can be made that anet's current policy of allowing everything unless it is banned is demonstrably better (or worse) from a gameplay perspective than the OP's proposed policy of banning everything unless it is allowed. But anet's policy is far superior from a business perspective, saves a lot of time and resources and achieves roughly the same result . . .

Farming gold and gold/hour is

ALWAYS

a competitive event.

I don't think I understand what you mean. Who are you competing with and how does their behavior affect your outcomes . . ?

I disagree with the premise of the thread.

But

GW2's economy is competitive. If some people increase the supply of something (whether mats or gold) in circulation then the value of that something generally goes down. This means that those using less efficient means of acquisition see an effective reduction in the value of their income or holdings.

You see this effect nearly every time a farm with a yield that outstrips previous income streams is discovered.

But, again, I disagree with the premise that these addons contribute to this in any meaningful way.

This is a fair point but it still doesn't make farming competitive. I would question whether it even makes the economy competitive or just an economy. There are as many or more players that would argue in favor of falling prices as against them. Regardless, from the farming perspective everyone would lose together as prices fall and they would all move on to the next farm together when the farm they're on now became less profitable. The fact that different players invest more or less time in the farm or are more or less efficient with the time they do invest does not make it a competitive endeavor . . .

[sewenewes.4176]

Arenanet actually monitors these things diligently. I'm sometimes very critical of the company (regarding other matters) but I can find no fault in the way they handle addons. There are few that are even allowed and even those have to adhere to a guideline. The developers of these addons get warned if a feature oversteps any of the boundaries and are given a grace period to make adjustments. The users of said addons are also given the same courtesy.

As an addendum, Arenanet doesn't design the game around addons unlike Blizzard thus addons aren't required. Try doing any competitive content in WoW without the mandatory ones like DBM, BigWigs, WeakAuras, VuhDo, Simulationcraft and a few others. It won't happen because Blizzard has been intentionally creating and adjusting their raids and dungeons around the readings and cues that those addons provide.

[Maikimaik.1974]

I have the impression that not a single one of those people opposed to addons have ever actually tried using one.I personally have tried most of them, and I'm still not using any of them. Taco is way too cluttered to me and the markers confuse me more than they help me. Therefore, Dulfy guides and the official wiki are more helpful to me and give me more of an advantage than addons do. But appereantly addons are bad? Why should addons be made "illegal" but websites shouldn't, although websites are way more beneficial to some people?

[mercury ranique.2170]

Just my two cents. It is not an addon or 3rd party tool that is breaking any rules. It is the person who is using them, who is breaking those rules (and wether or not it is a breach of the rules, is not forus to decide, but for the GM's).

So it is good practice to ban unwanted actions by users, not based on the tool they are using, but on the things they atually did.

[Terminal.5093]

another idea from the person that said to remove the keep requirement from warclaw because it's impossible to get a keep...

Let me guess.. you tried to use the add-on and couldn't get it to work properly.. so the solution is ban it?

It's ok to ask for help.. people will help you with setup or whatever.. plenty of discords to help out if stuck.

Otherwise, I don't understand why you're so upset about something that has no impact on you.

Should probably also ban the wiki page too.. too much information for people is unfair yeah? Oh, need to ban mice with too many buttons.. that's also a huge unfair advantage.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:"Anyone can use the addons too!" isn't a valid argument. That just makes it become the standard and what's expected of you.

Expected by whom? Now , if we were talking about WoW, I'd agree with you, in that many of the mods for that game aren't really optional, and I've been critical about Blizzard not incorporating many of those mods directly into the UI, rather than relying on 3rd party programmers.

But that doesn't apply to ANET. Exactly what addon would be required for what activity?

Nobody requires arcDPS to be installed in order for an invite to a group.No activity in the game requires TACO be installed in order to complete it.

So you'll have to expand on that statement and show examples of what you mean, because as far as GW2 is concerned, a player not running addons can do every thing a player running them can.

[Khisanth.2948]

Oh right the thing about map completion ... the impact that the overlays have is nothing compared to the impact that mounts have. I remember there was the one vista in Sparkfly Fen that I spent at least 30 minutes trying to figure out how to get while these days anyone with a springer could just jump up without even putting any thought into it. If you are honestly concerned about map completion rate being too quick then the real solution is to require a character to complete a map before they are allowed to use a mount on that map. ;)

This will never happen but it is the correct solution to the "problem".

@"Maikimaik.1974" said:I have the impression that not a single one of those people opposed to addons have ever actually tried using one.I personally have tried most of them, and I'm still not using any of them. Taco is way too cluttered to me and the markers confuse me more than they help me. Therefore, Dulfy guides and the official wiki are more helpful to me and give me more of an advantage than addons do. But appereantly addons are bad? Why should addons be made "illegal" but websites shouldn't, although websites are way more beneficial to some people?

You shouldn't be using Taco with every marker turned on. :P

Also some of the default are also not very good and maybe inaccurate such as the SW buried chests.

I generally don't bother with taco either since it requires running in windowed mode and most of the time I have no need for any of the markers anyway.

[Khalisto.5780]

soooo

in my perspective ppl dont use the addons cuz for some reason they don't want to, or dont know they exist or are too lazy to search ans install them, like me.

but the reason is never can't, that said I dont see why they should be banned

[Ashen.2907]

@Gop.8713 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Gop.8713 said:I don't think I understand what you mean. Who are you competing with and how does their behavior affect your outcomes . . ?A lot of the player base, because everyone is farming gold.But that doesn't hurt you. It's true many players farm gold or other things while many others do not. If you choose to farm, other players also farming do not hinder your effort. It's frequently the opposite, other players farming scales the farm to increase loots or makes the farm easier or more profitable in other ways . . .@Ashen.2907 said:@Gop.8713 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Vyrulisse.1246 said:Tac0 markers are literally in-game advantages and cheating over those that don't have them. Especially for Adventures, Races, Holiday events and Jumping Puzzles.

But the thing is none of those activities are competitive events so it doesn't matter if someone else has an advantage over me. The only exception I can think of is the beetle races where you do actually get more rewards for finishing in the top three. But that's a really marginal example . . .

As to the OP's concern I don't think a compelling case can be made that anet's current policy of allowing everything unless it is banned is demonstrably better (or worse) from a gameplay perspective than the OP's proposed policy of banning everything unless it is allowed. But anet's policy is far superior from a business perspective, saves a lot of time and resources and achieves roughly the same result . . .

Farming gold and gold/hour is

ALWAYS

a competitive event.

I don't think I understand what you mean. Who are you competing with and how does their behavior affect your outcomes . . ?

I disagree with the premise of the thread.

But

GW2's economy is competitive. If some people increase the supply of something (whether mats or gold) in circulation then the value of that something generally goes down. This means that those using less efficient means of acquisition see an effective reduction in the value of their income or holdings.

You see this effect nearly every time a farm with a yield that outstrips previous income streams is discovered.

But, again, I disagree with the premise that these addons contribute to this in any meaningful way.

This is a fair point but it still doesn't make farming competitive. I would question whether it even makes the economy competitive or just an economy. There are as many or more players that would argue in favor of falling prices as against them. Regardless, from the farming perspective everyone would lose together as prices fall and they would all move on to the next farm together when the farm they're on now became less profitable. The fact that different players invest more or less time in the farm or are more or less efficient with the time they do invest does not make it a competitive endeavor . . .

If two people are pursuing the same thing and one's degree of success can negatively impact the other's, that is a competitive endeavor.