Skyscale mount mechanics (not about timegate)

[makagoto.1204]

@crazyhusky.2985 said:I got skyscale and leveled it up to max.Its rather weird, I still think the griffin and springer are better in terms of height and flight.congratulation on being the very first person to finally complete all the chores. I mean there isn't even a youtube video out yet showing this achivement fulfilled, is it even possible with all the timegating around it?But why should you believe the springer is better in terms of height if you can simply test it like i did and wrote about in this thread?Then there is also the secondary mastery that suggest you can climb at least a little...

[Aeon.4583]

Funny, but all of this i've just discussed with a friend.

• He, aswell as me, hates that Skyscale starts to play Spider-Scale each time you near the wall.
• Wall Launch is horribly done.
• Skyscale flying speed seems to be lower than Griffon without Dive speed.

So there can be simple rework.

• Make Mount Ability 2 - Wall Grasp - So players will make decision whatever Skyscale should play Spider-Scale. Make Swim-down hotkey act as Altitude Lowering key ( mechanics is the same ) to replace Mount Ability 2 Descend workaround.
• Add a little bit push to Wall Launch. So it will jump away of wall to a little distance, and maybe little bit higher.
• Make Skyscale build up flying speed, longer Skyscale stay in movement while in the air, faster it flies ( to the point of some speed limit ).

Otherwise, Griffon with his dive, and Springer with higher jumps, seems to be superior.

[zealex.9410]

@Tails.9372 said:

@"Kidel.2057" said:I think that would break everything, not only old maps.

Define "break everything". Sure "it sounds bad" to those who are concerned about balance but if you actually think about it you would realise that it wouldn't break anything that isn't already "broken" because of the other mounts. For starters you can only use it in OW PvE maps so it wouldn't break WvW and instanced content. JPs are already engulfed in "no mount zones" so the only thing left to break is map completion, problem is griffon + springer already completely "breaks" this part of the game. Even with unrestricted flight there's nothing left to break here.

Flying mounts are bad, i havent seen an example where an mmo added flying mounts and it didnt take away from the world.

[Tails.9372]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@"Kidel.2057" said:I think that would break everything, not only old maps.

Define "break everything". Sure "it sounds bad" to those who are concerned about balance but if you actually think about it you would realise that it wouldn't break anything that isn't already "broken" because of the other mounts. For starters you can only use it in OW PvE maps so it wouldn't break WvW and instanced content. JPs are already engulfed in "no mount zones" so the only thing left to break is map completion, problem is griffon + springer already completely "breaks" this part of the game. Even with unrestricted flight there's nothing left to break here.

Flying mounts are bad, i havent seen an example where an mmo added flying mounts and it didnt take away from the world.

And another empty statement with no real argument behind it. Phrases like "It would break the game" and "it's bad" mean nothing if you can't elaborate "how". But let's be honest, the problem wouldn't be unrestricted flight as none of the content is forcing you to use it. It's that you guys just don't like the idea of other players using it. And you can have this opinion, everyone is entitled to their own. But I wish people would least be honest about it and don't act as if there's some sort of objective legitimacy to it cause there really isn't.

[zealex.9410]

@Tails.9372 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@"Kidel.2057" said:I think that would break everything, not only old maps.

Define "break everything". Sure "it sounds bad" to those who are concerned about balance but if you actually think about it you would realise that it wouldn't break anything that isn't already "broken" because of the other mounts. For starters you can only use it in OW PvE maps so it wouldn't break WvW and instanced content. JPs are already engulfed in "no mount zones" so the only thing left to break is map completion, problem is griffon + springer already completely "breaks" this part of the game. Even with unrestricted flight there's nothing left to break here.

Flying mounts are bad, i havent seen an example where an mmo added flying mounts and it didnt take away from the world.

And another empty statement with no real argument behind it. Phrases like "It would break the game" and "it's bad" mean nothing if you can't elaborate "how". But let's be honest, the problem wouldn't be unrestricted flight as none of the content is forcing you to use it. It's that you guys just don't like the idea of other players using it. And you can have this opinion, everyone is entitled to their own. But I wish people would least be honest about it and don't act as if there's some sort of objective legitimacy to it cause there really isn't.

If you can just fly above the maps the whats the point of traversal, waypoints and enemy mobs? It reduces tye world to just a straight invisible line up the clouds, wow introduced it and without designing zones it mind fir it they've been trying to take it out of the game.

[Tails.9372]

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@"Kidel.2057" said:I think that would break everything, not only old maps.

Define "break everything". Sure "it sounds bad" to those who are concerned about balance but if you actually think about it you would realise that it wouldn't break anything that isn't already "broken" because of the other mounts. For starters you can only use it in OW PvE maps so it wouldn't break WvW and instanced content. JPs are already engulfed in "no mount zones" so the only thing left to break is map completion, problem is griffon + springer already completely "breaks" this part of the game. Even with unrestricted flight there's nothing left to break here.

Flying mounts are bad, i havent seen an example where an mmo added flying mounts and it didnt take away from the world.

And another empty statement with no real argument behind it. Phrases like "It would break the game" and "it's bad" mean nothing if you can't elaborate "how". But let's be honest, the problem wouldn't be unrestricted flight as none of the content is forcing you to use it. It's that you guys just don't like the idea of other players using it. And you can have this opinion, everyone is entitled to their own. But I wish people would least be honest about it and don't act as if there's some sort of objective legitimacy to it cause there really isn't.

If you can just fly above the maps the whats the point of traversal, waypoints and enemy mobs? It reduces tye world to just a straight invisible line up the clouds, wow introduced it and without designing zones it mind fir it they've been trying to take it out of the game.

What's the point of the other stuff? You do realise that waypoints and the other mounts for that matter are still significantly faster like 99% of the time, right? Also, you can already speed past trash mobs with the roller beetle no problem, the random scarab is not supposed to be a significant hurdle and it's not like as if you could use it to skip parts of a meta event as they require you to deal with the mobs in order to progress.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Tails.9372 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@"Kidel.2057" said:I think that would break everything, not only old maps.

Define "break everything". Sure "it sounds bad" to those who are concerned about balance but if you actually think about it you would realise that it wouldn't break anything that isn't already "broken" because of the other mounts. For starters you can only use it in OW PvE maps so it wouldn't break WvW and instanced content. JPs are already engulfed in "no mount zones" so the only thing left to break is map completion, problem is griffon + springer already completely "breaks" this part of the game. Even with unrestricted flight there's nothing left to break here.

Flying mounts are bad, i havent seen an example where an mmo added flying mounts and it didnt take away from the world.

And another empty statement with no real argument behind it. Phrases like "It would break the game" and "it's bad" mean nothing if you can't elaborate "how". But let's be honest, the problem wouldn't be unrestricted flight as none of the content is forcing you to use it. It's that you guys just don't like the idea of other players using it. And you can have this opinion, everyone is entitled to their own. But I wish people would least be honest about it and don't act as if there's some sort of objective legitimacy to it cause there really isn't.

All you have to do is look at WoW who, after introducing Flying Mounts, have gone to great lengths to reduce their use to minimize the impact. At one point they even discussed removing flight from the game entirely, but instead opted to introduce their Pathfinder achievement process to 'unlock' flight again and again, in each subsequent expansion.

The information is out there, and has been out there for a very long time. Blizzard has implied they would have preferred to never have introduced the mechanic in the first place, but the genie can't be put back in the bottle.

The design of the Griffon was genius: it gave many of the benefits for flight, but did in such a way that it was limited, and therefore didn't fundamentally change the way the game was played. You still need the Skimmer to cross over the quicksand/sulphur and water, since the Griff can't fly over it indefinitely. The Springer is still needed because you can't just fly upwards permanently on your Griff.

As you say, you are entitled to your opinion, but don't pretend that flying mounts aren't controversial, nor have ever had a negative impact on an MMO, because the evidence on that subject is pretty conclusive.

[Ototo.3214]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Ototo.3214" said:

I kind of disagree with some of this. Sure it may still be niche for the most part but there have been many times where I was trying to use the bunny to get on a ledge, but either kept clunking my head against it and having to retry, or I miss and fall all the way back down again, having to start the climb all over again. Skyscale will fix that, cause if you miss...you at least don't fall all the way down.

And that's fair, but only if getting the Skyscale was on par / close to that of getting the bunny, or heck, even the Griffon. What's holding me back is that with this enormous task in front of me, I'm questioning whether it's worth it given the final product. Right now I can only evaluate the loaner mount, and read other people accounts, but from what I can see, it certainly isn't. Now someone who already has the mount might feel different, but then there is nothing they can do, they have already expended the time, effort and resources. Those of us who haven't committed to this though, are looking at the finished product and questioning whether it's at all worth it.

For me personally, I never use the Beetle, except to zoom my key toon around Kryta each week, and that's just for funsies. I have the stock beetle skin, and never plan on getting a new one, as I never use. I'm fine with that though, as the mount took me a weekend to earn and didn't really cost me anything. Skyscale is a bit different.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but you better believe I did a lot of research before I committed to crafting any of the legendaries I currently have, and right now my research is telling me this mount 'aint worth the trouble. Maybe I'll start seeing some footage / vids that will convince me otherwise.

Makes sense. It's why i agree about it still needing a buff as well, as the current flight gauge does feel way too limiting at times and gives off this feeling of "oh a mastery will make this better later" but there isn't. With that said though, I've still enjoyed using it and still manage to find use cases for it that i would struggle to use the springer with, so i just dislike when people assert it's completely useless. Some of the material costs were a bit ridiculous though, especially considering we didn't know what we would need before starting.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Ototo.3214 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Ototo.3214 said:

I kind of disagree with some of this. Sure it may still be niche for the most part but there have been many times where I was trying to use the bunny to get on a ledge, but either kept clunking my head against it and having to retry, or I miss and fall all the way back down again, having to start the climb all over again. Skyscale will fix that, cause if you miss...you at least don't fall all the way down.

And that's fair, but only if getting the Skyscale was on par / close to that of getting the bunny, or heck, even the Griffon. What's holding me back is that with this enormous task in front of me, I'm questioning whether it's worth it given the final product. Right now I can only evaluate the loaner mount, and read other people accounts, but from what I can see, it certainly isn't. Now someone who already has the mount might feel different, but then there is nothing they can do, they have already expended the time, effort and resources. Those of us who haven't committed to this though, are looking at the finished product and questioning whether it's at all worth it.

For me personally, I never use the Beetle, except to zoom my key toon around Kryta each week, and that's just for funsies. I have the stock beetle skin, and never plan on getting a new one, as I never use. I'm fine with that though, as the mount took me a weekend to earn and didn't really cost me anything. Skyscale is a bit different.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but you better believe I did a lot of research before I committed to crafting any of the legendaries I currently have, and right now my research is telling me this mount 'aint worth the trouble. Maybe I'll start seeing some footage / vids that will convince me otherwise.

Makes sense. It's why i agree about it still needing a buff as well, as the current flight gauge does feel way too limiting at times and gives off this feeling of "oh a mastery will make this better later" but there isn't. With that said though, I've still enjoyed using it and still manage to find use cases for it that i would struggle to use the springer with, so i just dislike when people assert it's completely useless. Some of the material costs were a bit ridiculous though, especially considering we didn't know what we would need before starting.

It's funny, this morning in Auric Basin at the North lane for the meta, two players had their Skyscales out and where hovering over the door waiting for the timer. Once the wall was down and you have to glide/fall down to the floor where the vine is, both players used their Griffons. That to me spoke volumes.

[Ototo.3214]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Ototo.3214 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Ototo.3214 said:

I kind of disagree with some of this. Sure it may still be niche for the most part but there have been many times where I was trying to use the bunny to get on a ledge, but either kept clunking my head against it and having to retry, or I miss and fall all the way back down again, having to start the climb all over again. Skyscale will fix that, cause if you miss...you at least don't fall all the way down.

And that's fair, but only if getting the Skyscale was on par / close to that of getting the bunny, or heck, even the Griffon. What's holding me back is that with this enormous task in front of me, I'm questioning whether it's worth it given the final product. Right now I can only evaluate the loaner mount, and read other people accounts, but from what I can see, it certainly isn't. Now someone who already has the mount might feel different, but then there is nothing they can do, they have already expended the time, effort and resources. Those of us who haven't committed to this though, are looking at the finished product and questioning whether it's at all worth it.

For me personally, I never use the Beetle, except to zoom my key toon around Kryta each week, and that's just for funsies. I have the stock beetle skin, and never plan on getting a new one, as I never use. I'm fine with that though, as the mount took me a weekend to earn and didn't really cost me anything. Skyscale is a bit different.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but you better believe I did a lot of research before I committed to crafting any of the legendaries I currently have, and right now my research is telling me this mount 'aint worth the trouble. Maybe I'll start seeing some footage / vids that will convince me otherwise.

Makes sense. It's why i agree about it still needing a buff as well, as the current flight gauge does feel way too limiting at times and gives off this feeling of "oh a mastery will make this better later" but there isn't. With that said though, I've still enjoyed using it and still manage to find use cases for it that i would struggle to use the springer with, so i just dislike when people assert it's completely useless. Some of the material costs were a bit ridiculous though, especially considering we didn't know what we would need before starting.

It's funny, this morning in Auric Basin at the North lane for the meta, two players had their Skyscales out and where hovering over the door waiting for the timer. Once the wall was down and you have to glide/fall down to the floor where the vine is, both players used their Griffons. That to me spoke volumes.

That's because the thing can't descend for crap xDI swear it falls faster than it can descend. And I'm fine with the Griffin continuing to be the go to for that. Would be nice to descend a little faster on the Skyscale though.

[Tails.9372]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

All you have to do is look at WoW who

Not really, if WoW made flying mounts the be-all and end-all of movement in OW areas then that's their problem but several aspects the game design here are not even remotely comparable cause: WoW ≠ GW2.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

As you say, you are entitled to your opinion, but don't pretend that flying mounts aren't controversial

Except I never said (or even implied) anything like that. People can make up controversies for a plethora of reasons. I merely stated that people who are against unrestricted flying have no objectivity to their points which is a fact, not an opinion. There's also no objective reason why we should have unrestricted flying either but those who are advocating for it at least don't act as if unrestricted flying would solve the games problems or anything.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

nor have ever had a negative impact on an MMO, because the evidence on that subject is pretty conclusive

I also never said "unrestricted flying can't have an negative impact", it obviously would have if it would actually break the content in question e.g. the FotM. But the way you phrase things: "on an MMO" shows that your argument is completely deprived from the context of the subject matter meaning you have no valid point here.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Tails.9372 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

All you have to do is look at WoW who

Not really, if WoW made flying mounts the be-all and end-all of movement in OW areas then that's their problem but several aspects the game design here are not even remotely comparable cause: WoW ≠ GW2.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

As you say, you are entitled to your opinion, but don't pretend that flying mounts aren't controversial

Except I never said (or even implied) anything like that. People can make up controversies for a plethora of reasons. I merely stated that people who are against unrestricted flying have no objectivity to their points which is a fact, not an opinion.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

nor have ever had a negative impact on an MMO, because the evidence on that subject is pretty conclusive

I also never said "unrestricted flying can't have an negative impact", it obviously would have if it would actually break the content in question e.g. the FotM. But the way you phrase things: "on an MMO" shows that your argument is completely deprived from the context of the subject matter meaning you have no valid point here.

You said there is no proof to the claim that unrestricted flying can have a negative impact on game play.I say there is ample evidence of this in WoWYour reply is that GW2 isn't WoW.

lol, ok then. Enjoy your bliss.

Btw, not understanding my point doesn't make it not valid, it just means you don't understand it.

[Tails.9372]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

You said there is no proof to the claim that unrestricted flying can have a negative impact on game play.

Citation needed, I said:

Phrases like "It would break the game" and "it's bad" mean nothing if you can't elaborate "how".

Saying "but WoW" is not an elaboration on how a skyscale with unrestricted flight would "break" / "be bad for" OW PvE maps in GW2.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I say there is ample evidence of this in WoWYour reply is that GW2 isn't WoW.

lol, ok then. Enjoy your bliss.

Btw, not understanding my point doesn't make it not valid, it just means you don't understand it.

Oh I understand it but you not realizing why it doesn't apply doesn't mean that it's valid either.

[Zok.4956]

@Kal Spiro.9745 said:

@Kidel.2057 said:4) Skyscale is

by design

a lower bound compared to Springer in terms of vertical movement. It still requires ledges to gain altitude, even with the masteries, and it's less tolerant to them.The springer also requires ledges to gain altitude. With the Skyscale you have time to find them decide precisely how to achieve them, with the Springer, you shoot and do your best.

I have max mastery on Springer and Skyscale unlocked and compared both a little. If there are no ledges on the wall the Skyscale can reach higher platforms/walls than the Springer.

The Springer jumps much faster (if you do not need several tries Jumping B) ) but the Skyscale has also its use and is fun (at least for me).

[Khalisto.5780]

it could have an "unmount" mastery that extend to all mounts and the whole skyscale masteries are fully mastered so you can just do it midair and get on your griffon

[Zok.4956]

@"Khalisto.5780" said:it could have an "unmount" mastery that extend to all mounts and the whole skyscale masteries are fully mastered so you can just do it midair and get on your griffon

It already has. "Bond of Faith" works also with the Skyscale. With this you can "switch" between Skyscale and Griffon (both ways) midair.

[Zok.4956]

@"Mewcifer.5198" said:And the "green bar" it's not an energy meter like endurance bars. It is a height indicator. It tells you how close you are to the "ceiling" you currently have. It can't "regenerate" because it is not a resource.Imagine an invisible glass dome appears over you when you start flying. You can fly up a certain height and the more you fly horizontally the slower that height becomes. You can land and reset this dome to a new location, allowing you to fly higher than you might have been able to before by having a higher starting point. The green bar just tells you how much room you have before you hit that dome ceiling.

Some of you may have noticed a bit of your bar turns brown at times. This means you have temporarily gone past the ceiling you were given and will drop back down into the ceiling quickly. This goes along with the red glowing orbs, those orbs give you a temporary boost to your height, allowing you to use them as sort of mini updrafts to climb higher into the air. They also will have your bar turning brown, which means you will drop back down below your ceiling after you are no longer flying into them.

I can't remember if the wall jumps moved the ceiling slightly or just allowed you to get past the ceiling a short ways and I don't feel like going back and rewatching the video where the devs talked about it. It was probably the latter though.

With wall jump you can go temporarily above your ceiling. But if you do not land (on the wall etc.) but continues to hover, you will descend automatically to your original flight height, but not lower (and from there you can try again).

[LucianDK.8615]

I think people are dissing the Skyscale too fast. With wall jump you can get really high up, and chaining ocassional Bond of Vigor to push further. I managed to get so high up in Divinitys Reach that I could see the blue abyss behind the facade of the buildings. Neiter Springer or Griffon couldve gotten all the way up there. Which demonstrates why free flight is not good for the game, as the world simply isnt built with it in mind. Even with the skyscale we can push the limitations of the world.

Also, you only loose height if endurance is under 1 bar. Ive managed to scale multiple walls that was beyond the springer.

[Cyndercat.7615]

@LucianDK.8615 said:I think people are dissing the Skyscale too fast. With wall jump you can get really high up, and chaining ocassional Bond of Vigor to push further. I managed to get so high up in Divinitys Reach that I could see the blue abyss behind the facade of the buildings. Neiter Springer or Griffon couldve gotten all the way up there. Which demonstrates why free flight is not good for the game, as the world simply isnt built with it in mind. Even with the skyscale we can push the limitations of the world.

Also, you only loose height if endurance is under 1 bar. Ive managed to scale multiple walls that was beyond the springer.

Springer and griffon can definitely reach top of DR. Ive done it over a year ago.

IMO skyscale is a pretty useless mount. Too slow to be used as a flight mount and very very clunky when it comes to ascending. The grab mechanic and its mastery are alot worse than what I was expecting. I will only be using it for cosmetic purposes and maybe if I need to climb a cliff that has no ledges, but honestly thats pretty rare.

[Grim West.3194]

Aye, the mount just doesn't seem that useful.

Not too bothered by the timegate issues. Just started the process so it will be a while before I have the mount. I enjoyed the Griffon collections, etc. But the Griffon is also by far the most useful mount, that and the raptor. However, playing around with the borrowed skyscales has be a very disappointing experience. I just don't see using it much or at all once I've obtained it. It needs to be more useful and fun to use.

[LucianDK.8615]

I cannot agree with it being useless. It is a quite precise mount as long you dont overtax it. But even that can be improved with Bond of Vigor and Wall jumping as already said.

But I expected a mount good at scaling walls beyond the ability of the Springer, and that was right what I recieved.

[Tails.9372]

@"LucianDK.8615" said:I managed to get so high up in Divinitys Reach that I could see the blue abyss behind the facade of the buildings. Neiter Springer or Griffon couldve gotten all the way up there.

Like I said, springer + griffon + the teleport device already completely "breaks" OW PvE maps and I've yet to see anyone complain about it (quite the contrary, most people seem to like it (what a surprise...)) / any of the negative consequences you guys are prophesying. Removing the unnecessary flight meter system and giving the skyscale unrestricted flight wouldn't change anything in this regard.

[Kidel.2057]

Been away from the forums farming map currencies. Got from almost 0 to 250 in all of them in 2 days to avoid losing 1 day.

Made the saddle, happy as a child.

And surprise, another 28 item collection...

I mean, I'd do all of this for a legendary, but an optional mount that will never be relevant? Meh...

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Kidel.2057 said:Regardless of opinions they clearly said that unrestricted flight is bad, so it won't happen.

I think it would be legendary but I don't know if I'd like that direction. What's fun in that?

I think unrestricted flight is the way to go, it can ascend naturally and without aid and is not as fast as the griffon. It's a stronger mount and one we grew via magic so it should be the strongest out of our collection at least for the moment. You don't need to use it right? You don't have to have it as other mounts can do what it does fairly well; this can also already be done with the magic trails they have left everywhere in the living world maps. You pretty much get full flight all the time if you collect them; And then can hover free of charge to see if there are more magic balls floating around.

Regardless of how it is, I know I will use this mount more than the others.

! Can we please make it dive like the griffin when we go to attack? I don't understand why it slowly descends for an attack; It should dive down and let us leap off as it shoots its fire. Having it be like that is kind of tedious and one of the only things id like to see fixed.

[Jora.5471]

@"Tails.9372" said:

The two advantages that Skyscale has over all mounts is:

• Long distance climbing- With the mastery that lets you recharge flight bar and the ability to grab onto walls, you can fly upward farther than a Springer can jump. Springers are very limited on how far they can jump, but a skilled player with Skyscale could reach far enough that it can find a flat floor to recharge flight bar completely.
• Precision flying- Griffon is very bad at this as it is always gliding. If you use a springer, you may not land on a ledge which will cause you to fall towards your death. Skyscale can move up, down, left, right, forward, backwards while Springers and Griffon cannot.

Which are pretty much useless if you think about it. Every place that would require "Long distance climbing" can either A: easily be accessed through other means, B: is part of a JP (meaning no mounts allowed) and C: is a place of no significance (e.g. reaching the top of the Dostoev Sky Peak). "Precision flying" on the other hand is only really useful for sightseeing but unrestricted flight would be much better in this regard.

At least the the griffon and the roller beetle actually offer some generally useful utility without anything holding back their potential (the only problem with the roller beetle was the slow start but bound of vigor took care of that problem) but that's what you get when the devs (by their own admission) put "making something cool looking" over functionality.

I disagree it is useless.

1. Finding a high place is always useful with Long distance climbing. You can fly over obstacles or you can make your griffon more useful as it requires a height requirement to go superspeed.
2. Precision flying is useful for climbing upward. As less precision means more mistakes from falling off a branch and then fall to your death.