Is P/P condi Scrapper any good?

[Creaitov.6328]

I'm a fairly new engineer player and I've been running this for a couple days while roaming, is it any good?

Sustain and condi application seem pretty strong, but with little to no cleave. Also it seems weak to CC so blocking/evading those skills are top priority.

Any thoughts? I very rarely see a condi engi on the wild so I'm a little bit curious lol.

[Vagrant.7206]

In what game mode? WvW or PvE?

[Jaruselka.5943]

From a purely WvW perspective playing an engineer with pistols is a waste of time regardless of specialization. They are slow, CC's are too easily cleared and have little to no power. Can't really say how effective they are in PvE or PvP.

[Creaitov.6328]

@Vagrant.7206 said:In what game mode? WvW or PvE?

WvW, solo/small scale roaming to be more specific.

@"Jaruselka.5943" said:From a purely WvW perspective playing an engineer with pistols is a waste of time regardless of specialization. They are slow, CC's are too easily cleared and have little to no power. Can't really say how effective they are in PvE or PvP.

I dunno, sure it is no thief but you still have access to permaswiftness from kits and a short leap from elixir gun. Out of combat you have the warclaw so mobility doesn't even matter there lol.

When you say CC's are too easily cleared I suppose you're talking about condis, and I agree that condi cleanses are pretty strong atm (antitoxin runes anyone? :x), but I think P/P (+ kits) condi application is fast and varied enough to be able to overcome this.

For reference, this is what I'm running: link

I've thought about replacing firearms with inventions and going pistol/shield for more tankyness but I feel you would lose a huge amount of damage. If I were to do that I think its better to just drop condis completely and go for your typical power holo build with shield.

[Dawdler.8521]

Well... Yes. People claiming its not good dont know what they're talking about.

It's like every other condi build (rev/mesmer/theif/engie/guard take your pick) in that it's pretty strong 1v1 and can now match every power build out there with the gyro buffs (it was fine during the HoT era as well, but it was basicly made obsolete with PoF due to the strength of their elites), but drops off in effiency the larger the groups become. Once the enemy gets a pocket healer/cleanser it's almost useless (usually happens around 5+ when random zerglings join the fight). Its not something you bring to a zerg fight unless you want to be a backline annoyance that pulls people out.

The main thing is never underestimate people being stupid enough to totally frontload damage and forget to bring condi cleanse. I've killed people 100-0 with just a single blowtorch to the face and they never cleanse it.

In terms of weakness, yes it's quite weak to CC. Warriors in rampage is probably one of the most dangerous foes you can meet, they can lock you down for ~10s if they're decent. Even if you can handle that in 1v1, it become very difficult outmanned.

Then of course you also have to fight that effing blowtorch. It's 90% of your burst damage and about 10% reliable. I have ~1500 hours on my engineer and most of that spent in WvW on condi scrapper build - it's still like trying to shoot with a snake as weapon because it's all over the place.

I dont really agree with the rabid/celestial build posted above though. That was fine for HoT, but now everything is taken to extremes. IMO it's dire or trailblazers to sustain your condi against the power builds with insane damage. I also find the healing turret inferior for p/p builds - dont really have the comboing to max its use (but granted, I dont like it regardless). I would recommend running the heal gyro and shocking speed instead. The kits are a little personal preference, I pack a 4th gyro instead of elixir gun (cleanse gyro) because I find too much swaps annoying. Also a cleansing sigil to handle burst condi rather than runes, with speed runes instead (perma 66% swiftness make you pretty mobile in combat).

[Creaitov.6328]

I went with rabid armor mostly because of the condis on crit of firearms and with celestial trinkets because that's what I have from other condi characters lol. But yeah now that I think about it the bleed proc isn't that important and the burning proc has an ICD anyways so I agree that dire/trailblazer would be better.

Regarding the utilities, I would say the elixir gun is very important for the build. It provides a little bit of everything: extra condis, condi cleanse, blast finisher, stun break and constant weakness application. I also prefer heal turret because of the built in condi-cleanse and the ability to lower the cd by picking it up instead of making it explode. Then with all this small condi cleanse you just add antitoxin runes on top of it and I feel you don't need cleanse gyro. (I'll also swap ice sigil to cleansing, I totally forgot about its existance lol oops).

I like the idea of speed runes though, 66% swiftness seems interesting. Is it noticeable in combat, while chasing or escaping? :o

In any case, its nice to hear the build is good and that there can be some variety within it.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"Creaitov.6328" said:I went with rabid armor mostly because of the condis on crit of firearms and with celestial trinkets because that's what I have from other condi characters lol. But yeah now that I think about it the bleed proc isn't that important and the burning proc has an ICD anyways so I agree that dire/trailblazer would be better.

You dont really need the precision, no. Most of the WvW burst engineer condi attacks is not based on crit. Critical hits work pretty wonky anyway, run with no precision and you'll still crit quite a bit. Its the same with combo procs, dump down some field and watch that "20% projectile finisher" suddenly proc 4 out of 5 shots through the field.

Regarding the utilities, I would say the elixir gun is very important for the build. It provides a little bit of everything: extra condis, condi cleanse, blast finisher, stun break and constant weakness application. I also prefer heal turret because of the built in condi-cleanse and the ability to lower the cd by picking it up instead of making it explode. Then with all this small condi cleanse you just add antitoxin runes on top of it and I feel you don't need cleanse gyro. (I'll also swap ice sigil to cleansing, I totally forgot about its existance lol oops).Personal preference as I said. I've never liked alot of kit swapping for the engie, even when I know thats "optimal". Two kits plus a double hit heal you need to combo with... I prefer to focus fully on movement. Maybe I'm just getting old :p

I like the idea of speed runes though, 66% swiftness seems interesting. Is it noticeable in combat, while chasing or escaping? :oWell you wont feel slow at least and its allowed me to both chase down foes and escape them. Its not really that simple to quantify though. Its all about staying on top of foes and it synergize well with the scrapper heal trait and tools.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

Very short answer: P/P scrapper is one of my favourite and best builds currently. Not lost a single 1v1 with that build for weeks, annoyed many 1v2 and some 1v3 with it. Drawback: impossible to down good sustain firebrands and sustain weavers but they won't down you either. I prefer it much over SD holo or similar DPS burst builds.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Prinzsecond.4863 said:Very short answer: P/P scrapper is one of my favourite and best builds currently. Not lost a single 1v1 with that build for weeks, annoyed many 1v2 and some 1v3 with it. Drawback: impossible to down good sustain firebrands and sustain weavers but they won't down you either. I prefer it much over SD holo or similar DPS burst builds.Dont forget sustain druids, lol. Last time I fought one it was a race to who disconnected first because WvW was unstable as heck that day. He lost after 5 minutes and I killed him he was running into a cliff.

[coro.3176]

As others have said, it has its strengths. It is pretty much all I run in WvW (ht,boots,toolkit,grenades,sneak), for roaming because I love the playstyle and I'm pretty experienced with it.

..however, it has a lot of weaknesses.

There are a some builds you just cannot touch due to the amount of personal cleanse they have negating everything you do. Most of the time they aren't even aware it's happening. They're just using their skills normally and getting free cleanses, or getting auto-proc cleanses, etc. Going up against a conversion holo, for example is a nightmare. It's an impossible fight unless you outskill them by a significant margin.

Then you have dedicated supports in small-medium fights. These nullify much of your damage and you can't reapply it fast enough because your skills are on longer cooldowns than their cleanse, and some of your skills are projectiles which will not land due to bubbles and other projectile hate. You're much less effective if one of these is around and you need to focus on killing them first.

Then you have dedicated supports in large fights. These nullify ALL your damage and actively turn it into boons. You are not helping your team by taking a huge risk and landing that melee range blowtorch on the back of the enemy zerg. You're hurting your team. All that is instantly cleansed and turned into boons. Thanks Heal-scrapper!

On the bright side, you get to run tanky stats, which helps you survive enough of a soulbeast burst to react and turn the tables. I do pretty well against soulbeasts.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"coro.3176" said:Then you have dedicated supports in large fights. These nullify ALL your damage and actively turn it into boons. You are not helping your team by taking a huge risk and landing that melee range blowtorch on the back of the enemy zerg. You're hurting your team. All that is instantly cleansed and turned into boons. Thanks Heal-scrapper!Tbh i dont really think its that dire. I mean its not good but if you play its strength, you can actually do a fair bit of killing in the backline. Just got to stay 1v1 outside the zergs sphere of healing. Had plenty of situations where I can find a target such as a rev between stabs or a necro slipping behind and then simply pull them and burst them. If they're not dead quickly, they're dying while running back to the safety of the zerg. You are also pretty well equipped to deal with other sideliners, thieves, soulbeasts, mesmers etc when two primary zergs engage. If you combine its set of tools with a power build like say a shatter mesmer, you can coordinate some pretty good sneak attacks.

But the evolution if zerging has basicly deleted the focus party, commanders just want everyone on meta firebrands, meta scourges and meta revs while treating fights as bashing two bricks together until one cracks. I find that boring. But alas, you need a strong core of them. Zergs cant really fight otherwise, which means the scrapper cant hit the backline anyway.

The biggest irony in the statement is probably that any scourge in the zerg will probably "give" 10x as much boons to the enemy as any scrapper.

[coro.3176]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@coro.3176 said:Then you have dedicated supports in large fights. These nullify ALL your damage and actively turn it into boons. You are not helping your team by taking a huge risk and landing that melee range blowtorch on the back of the enemy zerg. You're hurting your team. All that is instantly cleansed and turned into boons. Thanks Heal-scrapper!Tbh i dont really think its that

dire

.

ohoho. I see what you did there

I mean its not good but if you play its strength, you can actually do a fair bit of killing in the backline. Just got to stay 1v1 outside the zergs sphere of healing. Had plenty of situations where I can find a target such as a rev between stabs or a necro slipping behind and then simply pull them and burst them. If they're not dead quickly, they're dying while running back to the safety of the zerg. You are also pretty well equipped to deal with other sideliners, thieves, soulbeasts, mesmers etc when two primary zergs engage. If you combine its set of tools with a power build like say a shatter mesmer, you can coordinate some pretty good sneak attacks.

But the evolution if zerging has basicly deleted the focus party, commanders just want everyone on meta firebrands, meta scourges and meta revs while treating fights as bashing two bricks together until one cracks. I find that boring.

It's true, in disorganized groups, I can always find targets. It's just that those targets don't matter much in the larger fight. Those tend to be inexperienced zerglings that would have died anyway. If I'm lucky, the enemy will be running glassy backliners I can jump on, but most groups run tight now with front-midline scourges making up the bulk of the dps. The main comped group is still untouchable under their scrapper bubbles and fb heals. It still works vs bad players, but it doesn't work at all vs organized groups.

I can sometimes magnet someone out of the enemy group if their stability rotation isn't perfect, but condi's DoT nature usually allows them to get back to the group for cleanse + heal. Even if I stick a good Magnet-PryBar-Blowtorch-GlueShot combo, they still have their personal cleanse or resistance and can usually get away.

I just find it pretty inefective in that kind of fight compared to a power build where I can cleave with melee attacks or even a huge unblockable Prime Light Beam (and then eat like 10k in retaliation damage).

[Dawdler.8521]

@coro.3176 said:I just find it pretty inefective in that kind of fight compared to a power build where I can cleave with melee attacks or even a huge unblockable Prime Light Beam (and then eat like 10k in retaliation damage).Burn bright die fast ;)

Yeah a power build can definetly do more damage. Sometimes I miss my gs mesmer that could cleave right inside a zerg. But as I said, different purposes, different styles. Condi p/p scrapper is a commando, not a foot soldier.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

So you all Play with toolkit on P/P scrapper also when solo roaming? Is this enough pressure? Because you basically only add pry-bar for DPS and the rest is Utility.... and maybe some small condi-cover using throw-wrench I assume?

[coro.3176]

@Prinzsecond.4863 said:So you all Play with toolkit on P/P scrapper also when solo roaming? Is this enough pressure? Because you basically only add pry-bar for DPS and the rest is Utility.... and maybe some small condi-cover using throw-wrench I assume?

Toolkit is almost entirely for utility.

• Magnet to set up Blowtorch (and Pry Bar as a bonus) and stop fleeing opponents. It will also interrupt key skills if you predict them in advance (eg. you know the enemy is about to heal).
• Pry Bar is decent damage because your opponent tends to use other skills after being being pulled and those trigger the confusion a few times assuming it's not cleansed.
• Gear Shield is defense. It's critical in a lot of matchups.
• Box of nails is pretty useless, but it can be repeating cover condi for your burn if you're fighting in a narrow choke and the enemy has to stand in it. It also slows chasing opponents. Honestly, it should do like 5x its current bleed damage, but whatever.
• You don't use the autoattack because there's always a better skill to be casting - ie you just switch back to pistols if you don't need anything else on toolkit.
• Throw wrench is 2 cover condi (x2 applications) at medium range.

I never run a roaming build without toolkit. That's just personal preference, but the skills are all on reflex at this point.

[Creaitov.6328]

@"Prinzsecond.4863" said:So you all Play with toolkit on P/P scrapper also when solo roaming? Is this enough pressure? Because you basically only add pry-bar for DPS and the rest is Utility.... and maybe some small condi-cover using throw-wrench I assume?

I like elixir gun in addition to tool kit :x. Almost all of its skills are good in one way or another:

• Toolbelt is a stunbreak. From what I've seen engi has very little stunbreaks so its a good addition to the build.
• Elixir 1 is a constant source of weakness and poison. Don't underestimate weakness as a defensive condi, turning half of your enemy's hits into glancing blows is really powerful against power builds (50% less damage and can't crit), and the reduced endurance regen is icing on the cake. I usually camp elixir gun when everything is on CD because of this.
• Elixir 2 is cripple for the enemy and swiftness for you. Only weak skill of the kit IMO.
• Elixir 3 is additional poison and vuln stacks. Also condi cleanse for your allies if they happen to be near it lol.
• Elixir 4 is a blast finisher and a backwards leap (you can cancel it by trying to swap kits midair). You have easy access to water, light, lightning and smoke fields so there is a lot of flexibility in how to use this skill.
• Elixir 5 is a small pulsing heal that cleanses 1 condi at the beginning and a light field. Can't compare to a dedicated healing skill but hey, every bit of sustain helps.

I personally don't mind running multiple kits, in fact kits are what I like the most about engi so far lol. However, I think 2 kits is the sweet spot. 1 kit feels like too little and 3 kits feels like its very hard to use them to its full potential while also adding more stuff you have to keep track of :scream:. Maybe once I get better with the build I could try swapping sneak gyro for mortar kit, the different condi fields look very useful and since they last for a while it could work like a "fire and forget" type of kit.

[Prinzsecond.4863]

So that is basically a "Yes, but it adds more Utility than condi pressure" ^^