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Balance is terrible.I don't think mesmer are treated fairly


ZeteCommander.4937

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@praqtos.9035 said:

They took whining side as their way of balance. Just as F3->became stun was @"Lincolnbeard.1735" idea.All nerfs on mesmer were brought by players complaining all around, calling themselves knowledgable community, rofl. "Nerf this thing and mirage is perfect!" and this repeated itself all the time they got nerfed thing they wanted, torch, jaunt, signet of midnight, illusionary ambush, confusion, portal, axe ambush, mirage evade. Dont believe me? Look for the threads on your own if you want

Convince yourself whatever you want. There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game, including the 'common sense' evidence that suggests there is no reason to appeal to QQ on the forums in the first place. If Mirage doesn't work for you in PVP, you have other choices. Not all especs excel in every game mode. In fact most especs only excel in ONE game mode. I see no reason for Mirage to be any different. While I don't suggest Anet shouldn't try to make especs work well in all game modes, I would suggest that it's not a requirement for them to do so.

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@"Obtena.7952" said:There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".including the 'common sense' evidence.Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".including the 'common sense' evidence.Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".including the 'common sense' evidence.Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most.Tell that to over 50 pages complains about chrono and mirageThat's just ridiculous.Pretty much
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@praqtos.9035 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".including the 'common sense' evidence.Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most.Tell that to over 50 pages complains about chrono and mirageThat's just ridiculous.Pretty much

It could be 100 pages ... it doesn't matter. People complaining isn't often a compelling argument for change. That's proof Anet isn't listening to QQ to get things changed. They have a vision for how things work ... and they are changing according to it.

We got a huge thread on QQ on time gating for the new mount. Anet didn't remove the time gating though. They do things for reasons, not because players know more or are 'right'. You should be less bitter about your position as a player in a game where you don't control the changes. The good players do what they can with what they got, knowing it could change. That's standard MMO practice and good advice if you are going to play them.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".including the 'common sense' evidence.Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most.Tell that to over 50 pages complains about chrono and mirageThat's just ridiculous.Pretty much

It could be 100 pages ... it doesn't matter. People complaining isn't a compelling argument for change. That's proof Anet
isn't
listening to QQ to get things changed. They have a vision for how things work ... and they are changing according to it.Thats exact proof they do. All changes were made according to QQ demands of the community and I provided more than enough examples that you prefer to ignore. Believe in whatever you want.
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@praqtos.9035 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".including the 'common sense' evidence.Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most.Tell that to over 50 pages complains about chrono and mirageThat's just ridiculous.Pretty much

It could be 100 pages ... it doesn't matter. People complaining isn't a compelling argument for change. That's proof Anet
isn't
listening to QQ to get things changed. They have a vision for how things work ... and they are changing according to it.Thats exact proof they do. All changes were made according to QQ demands of the community and I provided more than enough examples that you prefer to ignore. Believe in whatever you want.

No it's not. Any appeal to QQ can never be appeased by any change because people will QQ about the changes themselves.

If your perspective is not inline with that of the people in control of the game, you will always be wrong. If you think Anet is listening to people QQing on the forum, you will not truly understand why they make changes. You will never be happy, but at least if you have the right perspective you won't be unhappy and ignorant.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

They took whining side as their way of balance. Just as F3->became stun was @"Lincolnbeard.1735" idea.All nerfs on mesmer were brought by players complaining all around, calling themselves knowledgable community, rofl. "Nerf this thing and mirage is perfect!" and this repeated itself all the time they got nerfed thing they wanted, torch, jaunt, signet of midnight, illusionary ambush, confusion, portal, axe ambush, mirage evade. Dont believe me? Look for the threads on your own if you want

Convince yourself whatever you want. There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game, including the 'common sense' evidence that suggests there is no reason to appeal to QQ on the forums in the first place. If Mirage doesn't work for you in PVP, you have other choices. Not all especs excel in every game mode. In fact most especs only excel in ONE game mode. I see no reason for Mirage to be any different. While I don't suggest Anet shouldn't try to make especs work well in all game modes, I would suggest that it's not a requirement for them to do so.

What's the use of this forum if you can't give official feedback on the problems in the game and publish players'real feelings about the game?Are their games just for their employees to play?If that's the case, I won't try anything else, because the design idea is so bad that I don't want to experience it again.I don't understand why you have to defend them all the time, even if they make an obvious mistake.Such as scepter ,They think the scepter is not doing well, so they make some changes.Confusing Images

after Damage 100%->120%

now Damage 120%->60%

Now the sceptre is worse than it was at first. Do you think it's reasonable?

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".including the 'common sense' evidence.Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

Bs.I already proved in other post that ANet does balance based on forums' opinions.Every single nerf is preceded by a large complain on forums. EM, torch burning, blurred frenzy, vigor traits, portal, jaunt, etc you name, its not one or two, every single one. It's not salt, it's just adding one plus one. Check the balance patch and go on pvp threads just before that patch.

On the buff side ANet does its ones but also take ideas from forums, daredevil change to exhaustion based on condition cleansing was safandula's idea, F3 to stun was mine and so on.

ANet doesn't have a vision, they're lost without knowing where to turn balancewise.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".including the 'common sense' evidence.Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

Bs.I already proved in other post that ANet does balance based on forums' opinions.Every single nerf is preceded by a large complain on forums. EM, torch burning, blurred frenzy, vigor traits, portal, jaunt, etc you name, its not one or two, every single one. It's not salt, it's just adding one plus one. Check the balance patch and go on pvp threads just before that patch.

On the buff side ANet does its ones but also take ideas from forums, daredevil change to exhaustion based on condition cleansing was safandula's idea, F3 to stun was mine and so on.

ANet doesn't have a vision, they're lost without knowing where to turn balancewise.He is very religious and wont listen to facts, leave him be.
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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".including the 'common sense' evidence.Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

Bs.I already proved in other post that ANet does balance based on forums' opinions.Every single nerf is preceded by a large complain on forums. EM, torch burning, blurred frenzy, vigor traits, portal, jaunt, etc you name, its not one or two, every single one. It's not salt, it's just adding one plus one. Check the balance patch and go on pvp threads just before that patch.

On the buff side ANet does its ones but also take ideas from forums, daredevil change to exhaustion based on condition cleansing was safandula's idea, F3 to stun was mine and so on.

ANet doesn't have a vision, they're lost without knowing where to turn balancewise.

There are times where players ideas and Anet's ideas coincide but make no mistake, Anet does what they want.

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@ZeteCommander.4937 said:

They took whining side as their way of balance. Just as F3->became stun was @"Lincolnbeard.1735" idea.All nerfs on mesmer were brought by players complaining all around, calling themselves knowledgable community, rofl. "Nerf this thing and mirage is perfect!" and this repeated itself all the time they got nerfed thing they wanted, torch, jaunt, signet of midnight, illusionary ambush, confusion, portal, axe ambush, mirage evade. Dont believe me? Look for the threads on your own if you want

Convince yourself whatever you want. There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game, including the 'common sense' evidence that suggests there is no reason to appeal to QQ on the forums in the first place. If Mirage doesn't work for you in PVP, you have other choices. Not all especs excel in every game mode. In fact most especs only excel in ONE game mode. I see no reason for Mirage to be any different. While I don't suggest Anet shouldn't try to make especs work well in all game modes, I would suggest that it's not a requirement for them to do so.

What's the use of this forum if you can't give official feedback on the problems in the game and publish players'real feelings about the game?Are their games just for their employees to play?If that's the case, I won't try anything else, because the design idea is so bad that I don't want to experience it again.I don't understand why you have to defend them all the time, even if they make an obvious mistake.Such as scepter ,They think the scepter is not doing well, so they make some changes.Confusing Images

after Damage 100%->120%

now Damage 120%->60%

Now the sceptre is worse than it was at first. Do you think it's reasonable?

No one said you couldn't ... just don't be surprised when your ideas don't align with how Anet wants to develop the game.

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Right ... because an MMO that's is 7 years in and still being developed with the same approach since day 1 is headed right for the grave ... you nailed it.

So when do you estimate this 'in the grave' event happening? I would really like to understand your perspective on how fast this game is being pounded into the ground because of class balance, because from where I sit, most of the patrons of this game don't give a rat's behind about it and that is why you see the game being 'driven' into the grave the the current 'superspeed' rate it's happening.

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There has been Toxicity because of balance in this game since day 1 ... yet here we are 7 years later ... game still being developed. Yes, we are headed right into the early grave. :BIGROLLEYES:

Like I said, people that QQ about balance sensationalize it. The fact is that most of the people that play this game aren't really concerned about it ... otherwise it would have already affected the game being in the grave beacuse it's been like this since day 1. What you preach doesn't match the reality of what's happening in the game and it most certainly hasn't affected Anet's direction to develop the game either.

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@Obtena.7952 said:There has been Toxicity because of balance in this game since day 1 ... yet here we are 7 years later ... game still being developed. Yes, we are headed right into the early grave. :BIGROLLEYES:

Like I said, people that QQ about balance sensationalize it. The fact is that most of the people that play this game aren't really concerned about it ... otherwise it would have already affected the game being in the grave beacuse it's been like this since day 1. What you preach doesn't match the reality of what's happening in the game and it most certainly hasn't affected Anet's direction to develop the game either.

I think Obtena is right. Most people seem to complain about balance like it's unplayable yet tons of people are still playing the game. Sure, I like to make my suggestions for changes as much as the next person but just because we may not like something doesn't mean it's bad design. People seem to think this game has some sort of hard core completive element when it really doesn't, not even ranked sPvP. It's a game targeted at the casual player, played by the casual player. Anet knows this and is going to design around them. The only time I really run into hardcore toxicity is when people start trying to treat the game like it's some super meta driven e-sport.

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Yeah just a coincidence, just a coincidence that happens every single time.Every one knows ANet draws ideas from players, it even happened in gw1, dervish and paragon were professions designed by players, codex arena was an idea from a players.Clones and phantasms on mesmer ? You got it, it was from a player on GW guru forums.All coincidences...

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Yeah just a coincidence, just a coincidence that happens every single time.Every one knows ANet draws ideas from players, it even happened in gw1, dervish and paragon were professions designed by players, codex arena was an idea from a players.Clones and phantasms on mesmer ? You got it, it was from a player on GW guru forums.All coincidences...

It's not a coincidence that people complain every time. It's just not a big deal to the majority of people that patronize this company and play the game. That's where there is no 'driven to an early grave' because of Anet's balancing approach ... as much as you want to convince your self balance is this critical feature of the game who's longevity depends on how good balance is ... it isn't.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".including the 'common sense' evidence.Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

How wrong you are.

  • Hundreds of posts crying about phantasms = let's nerf 50% damage of 2 phantasms doing 3k damage in 3s, and nerf burning coz 3 stacks every 30s is too much.
  • Hundreds of posts crying about boonshare = boon traits getting nerfed beyond useless.
  • Hundreds of posts crying about EM = In Gw1 we got Smiter's Booned, in Gw2 nerfs get EM'ed.
  • Hundreds of posts crying about Mirage dodge = Mirage Cloak being nerfed and vigor uptime becoming a joke.
  • Hundreds of posts crying about condis = Let's put 5-6 hard condi nerfs at the same time so forum mods can breathe.
  • Hundreds of posts crying about Confusing Images = Confusing Images gets 50% damage nerf even if was far from being highest damage skill.

Meanwhile, Revs have broken hammer damage and daredevils have perma evade build for 3.5 years while Soulbeast and Holo have broken damage paired with broken passive sustain for 1.5 years. Working as intended bois.

Everybody else does +7k in single hits, no problem. Mesmer does it in a 7 hit, +2s channel skill, NERF THAT KITTEN YOU CRAZY DEVS BREAKING DIS GAAAME!!!!PD: And it gets nerfed.

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There is also no question that some nerfs are simply "forced obsolescence" - examples being Elusive Mind, Evasive Mirror - where no attempt to retain any usability of the trait or skill is made, taking the easier route either temporarily or for long term until perhaps a proper balance is done.

I would rather Anet simply delete or disable problematic skills/traits temporarily until having enough time to implement sensible changes, instead of leaving them dangling over our noses like mouldy carrots.

Additionally the unwillingness to consider the effects of cumulative nerfs in the attempt to balance, and perhaps pride in never going back on anything when there is no continued reason for something to be as it currently is - examples being Critical Infusion and Jaunt.

On the flipside of this is something like Scepter - this has had oscillated between similar buffs and nerfs over time, appearing as though there doesn't seem to be any overarching plan as to how it should function - rather based on momentary state of the game instead of the possibility of stepping outside this to dictate how everything should function first. For the record of course as a lay person I do not know the real challenges they face in the workplace regarding this.

Certainly mirage is still ok - even if on a shaky foundation of a single grandmaster trait (IH) and little in terms of reasonable variety (good builds of course - not talking about some random build that's eaten for breakfast) - but this doesn't dismiss the apparent lackadaisical approach of Anet to their balance, especially given the explanations (or lack of explanation) they have given over the last year or so as to why certain things were done in the way that they were.

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@Ansau.7326 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".including the 'common sense' evidence.Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

How wrong you are.
  • Hundreds of posts crying about phantasms = let's nerf 50% damage of 2 phantasms doing 3k damage in 3s, and nerf burning coz 3 stacks every 30s is too much.
  • Hundreds of posts crying about boonshare = boon traits getting nerfed beyond useless.
  • Hundreds of posts crying about EM = In Gw1 we got Smiter's Booned, in Gw2 nerfs get EM'ed.
  • Hundreds of posts crying about Mirage dodge = Mirage Cloak being nerfed and vigor uptime becoming a joke.
  • Hundreds of posts crying about condis = Let's put 5-6 hard condi nerfs at the same time so forum mods can breathe.
  • Hundreds of posts crying about Confusing Images = Confusing Images gets 50% damage nerf even if was far from being highest damage skill.

Meanwhile, Revs have broken hammer damage and daredevils have perma evade build for 3.5 years while Soulbeast and Holo have broken damage paired with broken passive sustain for 1.5 years. Working as intended bois.

Everybody else does +7k in single hits, no problem. Mesmer does it in a 7 hit, +2s channel skill, NERF THAT KITTEN YOU CRAZY DEVS BREAKING DIS GAAAME!!!!PD: And it gets nerfed.

Crying posts are simply coincidental. There are LOTS of changes that are NOT related to players complaints. Anet has a vision. They implement it. 1000's of complaints, a handful of them are bound to be inline with that vision. You're own post PROVES it ... if Anet is changing the game based on crying posts, why are things in the game that people still crying about? That makes no sense.

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:@Obtena.7952, how can you be 100% certain Anet doesn't ever consider and act on player feedback? Unless you work for them or have some kind of inside knowledge?

I didn't say they didn't. I said they do what they want. In otherwords, Anet isn't simply compelled by QQ threads on the forums like some people here are suggesting.

Let's try this ... if Anet is primarily listening to the QQ threads players make on the forum ... why don't we have balance yet?

Anet balancing to QQ is a zero sum game, so how can any reasonable person think that's why they make changes?

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@Obtena.7952 said:

I didn't say they didn't. I said they do what they want. In otherwords, Anet isn't simply compelled by QQ threads on the forums like some people here are suggesting.

Let's try this ... if Anet is primarily listening to the QQ threads players make on the forum ... why don't we have balance yet?

Anet balancing to QQ is a zero sum game, so how can any reasonable person think that's why they make changes?

You are being delusional .... WAAAAY too delusional, to say that the QQ have no effect on their balance.. I really don't know what to say except that you are being delusional .

Another thing is, this is not rock, paper and scissor, you can't really balance games, to put it simple, you can't achieve balance, we hope that changes makes things close to being balanced, but there are things that are obviously related to QQ.

As for another thing here is something for you:Some players: Perma stealth is wrong and needs to go.Some other players: It is fine and L2P.Even more of the other players : The thief can't contest the point so it is fine.OTHER players .. : If you take away perma stealth give us something else.You see the issue with some of the balance problems or you need a slap to wake up? by the way, people who say perma stealth is fine also needs a slap to wake up as well.

Obtena wake up xD

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@Heartpains.7312 said:

I didn't say they didn't. I said they do what they want. In otherwords, Anet isn't simply compelled by QQ threads on the forums like some people here are suggesting.

Let's try this ... if Anet is primarily listening to the QQ threads players make on the forum ... why don't we have balance yet?

Anet balancing to QQ is a zero sum game, so how can any reasonable person think that's why they make changes?

You are being delusional .... WAAAAY too delusional, to say that the QQ have no effect on their balance.. I really don't know what to say except that you are being delusional .

Another thing is, this is not rock, paper and scissor, you can't really balance games, to put it simple, you can't achieve balance, we hope that changes makes things close to being balanced, but there are things that are obviously related to QQ.

As for another thing here is something for you:Some players: Perma stealth is wrong and needs to go.Some other players: It is fine and L2P.Even more of the other players : The thief can't contest the point so it is fine.OTHER players .. : If you take away perma stealth give us something else.You see the issue with some of the balance problems or you need a slap to wake up? by the way, people who say perma stealth is fine also needs a slap to wake up as well.

Obtena wake up xD

No, I'm not ... but I agree, you can't balance games. That's why it's nonsense to think Anet is primarily driven to make game changes by forum QQ. Put it this way ... if there were no player inputs, Anet would be changing the game anyways, so forum QQ is definitely not necessary for Anet to implement their idea of the game.

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