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Easy raid for training

Let's do Boss HP -50% for Wing 1/2/3/4. No rewards.

Why not? Don't tell me the raid is designed to be hard. A lot of people are willing to learn, but only a few are willing to tag up and teach; leading the training group is a lot of work. The learners should be able to form a training group by themselves at all times of the day.

Comments

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    @sigur.9453 said:
    Mechanics are the things that fail mostly, not dps checks.

    Exactly why I never was entirely convinced of easy modes, or how they would have to be implemented.

    They either have to lower the Boss HP so much that people can burst the bosses down quickly, skipping most of the mechanics, meaning people don't actually learn to endure them for an extended amount of time while doing DPS, or they have to take out mechanics to make the fights easier, leading to not learning them at all, or they have to weaken the mechanics drastically to make them less punishing to mess up (which may be the best choice for training Raids), but that could also lead to people just skipping/ignoring them and not learning a thing.

    Especially Wing 4, Boss 1-3 at least, are fairly easy mode already if you want to start getting into Raids and are willing to learn.
    Yes, it's a bit of work getting into difficult and often community gated content like Raids, but it's far from impossible.

    I'm not sure if simply a -50% boss HP mode with no rewards would do much. People would either still wipe to the mechanics, or burst past them so quickly that they wouldn't learn them.
    But maybe, if presented as a special event to participate, it could embolden a lot of people good enough for Raids who simply are too afraid to group up with experienced groups or who imagine Raids to be way harder than they actually are, to band together and just finally try Raids to get hooked. So that could still be a good thing for the Raiding community.

    So while I'm not entirely opposed to the idea, there are probably better ways to make an easy mode that people actually benefit and learn from.
    But just any sort of training event could bring in new people I suppose.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    With -50% HP you won't see most mech lol, boss will go down that easy. You are thinking of -20%.
    And this tread gets flooded with 'resources, 'raid are easy', 'no rewards-not worth', 'give full reward for easy mode' etc
    in
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    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    With -50% HP you won't see most mech lol, boss will go down that easy. You are thinking of -20%.
    And this tread gets flooded with 'resources, 'raid are easy', 'no rewards-not worth', 'give full reward for easy mode' etc
    in
    3
    2
    1

    Nah no need you pretty much summed it up mate.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    I would love to easy 2 difficulties for raids. Story - easier from current one with dialogues etc and hard - way harder than current state and with no cutscenes and time waste. 3 are too many and unnecessary.

  • iloj.6514iloj.6514 Member

    Ask a friend to join a groupe with you. He will explain you what to do ( if you are dps, not much). When you know mechs you can join/form any groupe you want

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 16, 2019

    There is no good solution. They cant put out raids fast enough or make them truly challenging enough for the hard core raiders/min-maxers, and they don't have the resources to expand the available modes to cater to more casual players/people trying to get into raiding.

    They shoehorned raids into a game that doesn't really work for raiding solely to try an appeal to a new category of player - and the result is a slowly dying game mode (I realize Im making an assumption there) that only serves to fracture the game's population and promote an unhealthy air of superiority that has been detrimental to the game's sense of community, imo.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lorfi.7562 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    There is no good solution. They cant put out raids fast enough or make them truly challenging enough for the hard core raiders/min-maxers, and they don't have the resources to expand the available modes to cater to more casual players/people trying to get into raiding.

    They shoehorned raids into a game that doesn't really work for raiding solely to try an appeal to a new category of player - and the result is a slowly dying game mode (I realize Im making an assumption there) that only serves to fracture the game's population and promote an unhealthy air of superiority that has been detrimental to the game's sense of community, imo.

    Why do non raiders always have to trashtalk raiders? Superiority has always been in the game, even before raids, rude/toxic people have always been in the game even before raids and an even big percentage of non raiders are as rude/toxic/superiority complex compared to raiders but noone cares about this. Stop acting like raids is filled with toxic people because the 2.5years+ of raiding I did now I can safely say the vast majority of people you described I met in raids were non raiders that felt they were to good/entitled to raid so thought leeching and/or faking LI/KP should be allowed. And if you're saying it's toxic to kick people that cause 9other, legit players can have their kills safely (and not waste time) then idk what to reply in all honesty.

    Not that it should matter, but I have raided a lot (dating back 12+ years across three games), so Im definitely not a "non raider" - and I don't think I'm trash talking raiders (and definitely don't intend that).

    Im simply stating why raids aren't a good fit in GW2 specifically - for either casual or harder core players. They force fit them into a game where they don't really fit and, imo, they have made the game worse - not because of the players, but because of the nature - and inherent developer needs - of the content. In games where they can focus on raids as true end user content, they work. Here - not so much.

  • Lorfi.7562Lorfi.7562 Member ✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    and the result is a slowly dying game mode (I realize Im making an assumption there) that only serves to fracture the game's population and promote an unhealthy air of superiority that has been detrimental to the game's sense of community, imo.

    I mean this is basically calling raiders toxic people that feel better than non raiders which is bad for the game, which imo is infact trashtalking raiders. Especially because there's 0 support that raiders from this game make the game unhealthy. I believe quite the opposite because I said in another threat of my casual guild, I'm the most helpfull person when it comes to advice, tips, answering general questions and activity and I also believe this is super true in a lot of other casual guilds. But people don't tend to know it because there's no reason to tell others you're a raider.
    Also I do believe raids fit super well in GW2, the combat is amazing to make fun, challenging and intersting boss fights. A few friends of me only play gw2 cause it has raids and of all the MMO's they played had by far the most enjoyable combat for them so they stick with this game.

    I'm sorry for calling you a non raider, but it's the mindset people that don't tend to raid or do weekly clears (or even do the super easy bosses weekly) on here have that raids are bad and the cause of all toxicity in game, while they refuse to put in the bare minimum effort from gearing up to learning the bosses and then get mad when people don't accept them in higher li squads because they're new. Which tilts me way to hard, especially cause it's super easy to get correct gear (no gear threadmill makes it even easier) and finding a group willing to teach you.

  • thrag.9740thrag.9740 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ryudnard.2587 said:
    The learners should be able to form a training group by themselves at all times of the day.

    They can. That's literally what I did. I made training groups to learn.

  • Asum.4960Asum.4960 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @Blaeys.3102 said:

    @Lorfi.7562 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    There is no good solution. They cant put out raids fast enough or make them truly challenging enough for the hard core raiders/min-maxers, and they don't have the resources to expand the available modes to cater to more casual players/people trying to get into raiding.

    They shoehorned raids into a game that doesn't really work for raiding solely to try an appeal to a new category of player - and the result is a slowly dying game mode (I realize Im making an assumption there) that only serves to fracture the game's population and promote an unhealthy air of superiority that has been detrimental to the game's sense of community, imo.

    Why do non raiders always have to trashtalk raiders? Superiority has always been in the game, even before raids, rude/toxic people have always been in the game even before raids and an even big percentage of non raiders are as rude/toxic/superiority complex compared to raiders but noone cares about this. Stop acting like raids is filled with toxic people because the 2.5years+ of raiding I did now I can safely say the vast majority of people you described I met in raids were non raiders that felt they were to good/entitled to raid so thought leeching and/or faking LI/KP should be allowed. And if you're saying it's toxic to kick people that cause 9other, legit players can have their kills safely (and not waste time) then idk what to reply in all honesty.

    Not that it should matter, but I have raided a lot (dating back 12+ years across three games), so Im definitely not a "non raider" - and I don't think I'm trash talking raiders (and definitely don't intend that).

    Im simply stating why raids aren't a good fit in GW2 specifically - for either casual or harder core players. They force fit them into a game where they don't really fit and, imo, they have made the game worse - not because of the players, but because of the nature - and inherent developer needs - of the content. In games where they can focus on raids as true end user content, they work. Here - not so much.

    They do work great though.
    GW2 has a fantastic combat system, which often almost feels wasted on a lot of the content such as open world and story, because almost all of the game mechanics and mechanical interactions don't matter since everything is so mindlessly easy or simply zerged down.

    Nowhere in the game can you enjoy the intricacies of GW2's combat system as in Fractal CM's and Raids when it comes to PvE.

    In addition to that, nothing in PvE other than Fractal CM's and Raids actually encouraged me to find consistent people to play with and make friends ingame, which in turn kept me around to play the game for longer and more frequently than I probably would if everything still was just old dungeons, and single player story and open world maps (which if anything don't fit the genre and mechanics Anet made).

    That Anet doesn't spend enough resources to develop content for the hardcore player base of GW2 in general is a major issue, yes, but I don't know how that makes this type of content a bad fit for the game per se.

    And as someone else said, once you find actually good players in Raids and CM's, they are some of the nicest, play what you want as long as it works kind of laid back people, because they don't need the overcompensate for their own failings by throwing toxicity at others.
    Not that other game modes, especially when it involves PvP, don't have somewhat of the same issue, except in my experience people seem to get more toxic the higher you climb there, but even there it's still the worst players that somehow made it up there that instantly start raging at others for the smallest mistake, masking their own insecurities.

    There is absolutely no special inherent link of toxicity and Raids.
    People just need to put the effort in to communicate with others about their skill level and put some work in to build up or join an existing training group to work their way up from there, instead of just expecting to join this "toxic sweet zone" of bad players who think they are great due to having been carried to some KP, while being terrible themselves still, and expecting things to go great.

    So I guess you could say CM's and Raids don't fit into the game because it's actually really good content that requires some effort and coordination, but that seems like the worst reason not to develop exactly that kind of content further and to promote it better.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • abram.3081abram.3081 Member ✭✭

    Wouldn't lowering the damage taken be enough? That way you don't die as much and can see how the fight plays out as well as work on improving your own DPS.
    I think the constant dying and resetting is what makes raiding frustrating for most people, not how hard it is. Everything going on on screen is often a lot to take in and having time to react to danger before being killed is better for learning that just dying over and over again.
    Also making it a training instance with no regular raid currency drops to keep people from farming it will solve the problem of people not attempting the real raids.

  • Lorfi.7562Lorfi.7562 Member ✭✭

    @abram.3081 said:
    Wouldn't lowering the damage taken be enough? That way you don't die as much and can see how the fight plays out as well as work on improving your own DPS.
    I think the constant dying and resetting is what makes raiding frustrating for most people, not how hard it is. Everything going on on screen is often a lot to take in and having time to react to danger before being killed is better for learning that just dying over and over again.
    Also making it a training instance with no regular raid currency drops to keep people from farming it will solve the problem of people not attempting the real raids.

    I mean 90% of the raids don't really deal dmg if you stand behind the boss or outisde super obvious AoE's, you could argue this change works for the hard ticking AoE's of wrong tile on VG if you get ported, but the fastest way to learn something is to keep repeating till you don't f up. Doing VG training with 30 wipes, but end up killing it at try 31 with noone being ported is WAY more usefull for the trainees than doing it 4times where everyone gets ported by every blue but doesn't get punished for it.

    The only thing I got annoyed from when I trained 2years ago or more now is the same people wiping us over and over again (was a small guild team), but I rather wipe and get people that know mechanics than easymode trainings that doesn't make people understand that mechanics are punishing.

    And Tbf what's the point of training easy modes that don't give kp, li or anything. You won't get into exp raids because noone wants someone that did raids where you can kitten up nearly every mechanic, facetank the boss and still get the kill while thinking you're good enough for the normal mode. The step up would still be very big from training on easymode to training on normal mode to spend nearly as much time doing "training easy mode, getting kill, training normal mode, getting kill" as you'd just practice normal mode and get the kill.
    I'd also argue it's worse mentally to get a kill relatively easy on easymode and then die over and over on normal mode and feel like you start from 0 again, just because it worked on easymode.

  • Artits.2795Artits.2795 Member ✭✭

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    There is no good solution. They cant put out raids fast enough or make them truly challenging enough for the hard core raiders/min-maxers, and they don't have the resources to expand the available modes to cater to more casual players/people trying to get into raiding.

    They shoehorned raids into a game that doesn't really work for raiding solely to try an appeal to a new category of player - and the result is a slowly dying game mode (I realize Im making an assumption there) that only serves to fracture the game's population and promote an unhealthy air of superiority that has been detrimental to the game's sense of community, imo.

    You mean you want all players to be able to enjoy all the content this game has to offer? Ew you entitled, rude, raging kid.

    Why would they embrace newcomers when they can just charge them for raids? 80 mystic coins for a boss is the rate nowadays or so I've heard. While the community is pretty disgusting I think Anet is more at fault here for enabling such people. But then again considering the attitude of that one employee that basically started a Twitter war with a fan because he offered constructive criticism and Anet's general attitude of not changing anything even if the fans don't like it unless there's an outrage about it, I would say that Anet may not be total strangers to elitist behavior themselves.

  • abram.3081abram.3081 Member ✭✭

    @Lorfi.7562 said:

    @abram.3081 said:
    Wouldn't lowering the damage taken be enough? That way you don't die as much and can see how the fight plays out as well as work on improving your own DPS.
    I think the constant dying and resetting is what makes raiding frustrating for most people, not how hard it is. Everything going on on screen is often a lot to take in and having time to react to danger before being killed is better for learning that just dying over and over again.
    Also making it a training instance with no regular raid currency drops to keep people from farming it will solve the problem of people not attempting the real raids.

    I mean 90% of the raids don't really deal dmg if you stand behind the boss or outisde super obvious AoE's, you could argue this change works for the hard ticking AoE's of wrong tile on VG if you get ported, but the fastest way to learn something is to keep repeating till you don't f up. Doing VG training with 30 wipes, but end up killing it at try 31 with noone being ported is WAY more usefull for the trainees than doing it 4times where everyone gets ported by every blue but doesn't get punished for it.

    The only thing I got annoyed from when I trained 2years ago or more now is the same people wiping us over and over again (was a small guild team), but I rather wipe and get people that know mechanics than easymode trainings that doesn't make people understand that mechanics are punishing.

    And Tbf what's the point of training easy modes that don't give kp, li or anything. You won't get into exp raids because noone wants someone that did raids where you can kitten up nearly every mechanic, facetank the boss and still get the kill while thinking you're good enough for the normal mode. The step up would still be very big from training on easymode to training on normal mode to spend nearly as much time doing "training easy mode, getting kill, training normal mode, getting kill" as you'd just practice normal mode and get the kill.
    I'd also argue it's worse mentally to get a kill relatively easy on easymode and then die over and over on normal mode and feel like you start from 0 again, just because it worked on easymode.

    You are looking at my comment from an experienced person's perspective. I was basing my opinion on the fact that to gain proper experience for raids and without irritating the more elite players (those with higher expectations) an easier mode can be allowed (this is already a concept achieved well in fractals).
    In my opinion, to bridge the gap there needs to be an intermediary mode that lets people experiment with their play-styles vs the mechanics to understand why certain things won't work well. This is the kind of experience I believe most people outside of the meta were lead to expect of raiding, to challenge their minds in a way that forced them to improve out of design and not rely so heavily on the community and thus ruining immersion.
    The meta raiding community is consequentially elitist not because of it's own choice but because of it's reason for existing, basically to provide the fastest possible way to clear content in order to maximize rewards (more currency and drop chance rolls). It is my understanding that this very reason is what, contrasted with the fundamental reason more casual raiders play, is causing the ultimate polarity between the player base.
    This is just my opinion and potential solution the the problem, you can't take it or leave it.