[spoiler] about the kralkatorrik torment...

[DaFishBob.6518]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Swizzle.7982 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:They also hint that "something else" besides overdosing magic may cause this torment (with a not so subtle "possible future plot" being Aurene having to deal with it).

Just speculation, but could this somehow be related to Abaddon? Kralk's mention of torment and anguish stood out to me, and on top of that the form that Kralkatorricks's Torment took on had a clear resemblance to Abaddon. Maybe it's not so much that Abaddon caused Kralk to go insane, but perhaps there's something else out there that caused both Kralk and Abaddon to go mad?

The implication is that it predates even the previous dragonrise. This means it predates the Six Gods' arrival on Tyria by at least ~20,000 years. So no, no relation to Abaddon.

And honestly, Abaddon does not hold a monopoly on the concept of pain, anguish, and torment. Dhuum has reigns on that far before Abaddon.

But couldn't it be possible that whatever made Kralk and possibly the other Elder Dragons go mad have existed all the way to when the Six arrived and also affected them to an extent? I don't think Swizzle's point is that Abaddon caused this but something beyond the Gods and the Elder Dragons managed to affect them both, even at the different times that they existed around Tyria.

[Genesis.8572]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:That was my first thought, too, but in the Guild Chat the devs say that the 'kill what you love' bit was referring to Glint, not whoever this mother is.I feel weirdly vindicated then, since in my initial playthrough of the story I thought that Kraalkatorik was referring to Glint.

[Randulf.7614]

@DaFishBob.6518 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Swizzle.7982 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:They also hint that "something else" besides overdosing magic may cause this torment (with a not so subtle "possible future plot" being Aurene having to deal with it).

Just speculation, but could this somehow be related to Abaddon? Kralk's mention of torment and anguish stood out to me, and on top of that the form that Kralkatorricks's Torment took on had a clear resemblance to Abaddon. Maybe it's not so much that Abaddon caused Kralk to go insane, but perhaps there's something else out there that caused both Kralk and Abaddon to go mad?

The implication is that it predates even the previous dragonrise. This means it predates the Six Gods' arrival on Tyria by at least ~20,000 years. So no, no relation to Abaddon.

And honestly, Abaddon does not hold a monopoly on the concept of pain, anguish, and torment. Dhuum has reigns on that far before Abaddon.

But couldn't it be possible that whatever made Kralk and possibly the other Elder Dragons go mad have existed all the way to when the Six arrived and also affected them to an extent? I don't think Swizzle's point is that Abaddon caused this but something beyond the Gods and the Elder Dragons managed to affect them both, even at the different times that they existed around

It is likely to do with an over accumulation of magic over time or too much too quickly. Especially given what we have seen with leylines and bloodstone contamination.

I think there is a leaning towards a thing which caused it which seems highly unlikely unless the Tyria “Gaia” theory holds true

We also have no proof the others went mad or were tormented. Just one Dragon

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@DaFishBob.6518 said:But couldn't it be possible that whatever made Kralk and possibly the other Elder Dragons go mad have existed all the way to when the Six arrived and also affected them to an extent? I don't think Swizzle's point is that Abaddon caused this but something beyond the Gods and the Elder Dragons managed to affect them both, even at the different times that they existed around Tyria.

As far as we know, nothing affected the Six Gods. Abaddon's fall into evil was a traditional kind of fall, and not some manipulation by another by all indications.

[crepuscular.9047]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The Forgotten were trying to make Kralkatorrik good. This was after Glint's death, when Kralkatorrik was already evil. Not sure where you get that perspective from.

There was that comment about Kalk' torment was formed because of Forgotten's ritual, my thought on this, the torment probably had always existed when Kalk became an Elder Dragon. the magic that made him become an Elder Dragon is engulfed the good inside of him

I see the Forgotten Ritual is either make the good side of Kalk stronger to resist the 'evil' magic, or to suppress it

I just dont really like how Anet pull out Kalk being a goodie goodie out of a hat at the end

Joko lied. Big surprise. He's just some Elonian diplomat's son from the late 700s.

It all depends on how the writers want to drive the direction, Joko may have stumbled across some ancient text explaining the birth of Elder Dragons and how they are linked with Tyria, and he just lied about credits

Tl;dr, the torment is caused by conflicting magic (and not just from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar) which has driven Kralkatorrik insane - and they stress that it doesn't mean Kralkatorrik was good before then either. They also hint that "something else" besides overdosing magic may cause this torment (with a not so subtle "possible future plot" being Aurene having to deal with it).

That's not really a surprise, if it was the magic that turned Kalk evil in the first place, and Aurene consumed it, then Aurene would likely turn into Kalk 2.0 in time

[CETheLucid.3964]

@crepuscular.9047 said:That's not really a surprise, if it was the magic that turned Kalk evil in the first place, and Aurene consumed it, then Aurene would likely turn into Kalk 2.0 in time

OurElderDragonIsDifferent

It could be a potential problem she'll have to deal with later maybe but at present everything indicates Aurene is fundamentally different from Kralkatorrik and other EDs.

Aurene can handle different conflicting magics even human god magic to no ill-effect. Maybe it's because she's young? As EDs get older they have magical digestion issues? (lol)

Aurene is definitely an extraordinary figure at present. It might have to do with her affinity to and connection to mortals. She has a pulse on the people of Tyria.

This is unprecedented for EDs and Kralkatorrik comments on such himself.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@crepuscular.9047 said:I just dont really like how Anet pull out Kalk being a goodie goodie out of a hat at the end

Kralkatorrik was not a good guy. In Guild Chat they even stressed ti: Just because he went insane due to pain, doesn't mean he was a good guy before insanity.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:I just dont really like how Anet pull out Kalk being a goodie goodie out of a hat at the end

Kralkatorrik was

not

a good guy. In Guild Chat they even stressed ti: Just because he went insane due to pain, doesn't mean he was a good guy before insanity.

He was probably something in between like most of us. The dialogue he shares with his torment and Aurene just doesn't paint someone who's irredeemably evil.

You'd think if he was sane given he had a prophecy of his own death because the world wouldn't stand to be destroyed this cycle he'd be down with Glint's idea of a world in harmony between mortals and elder dragons.

He obviously cared for her very much. So it wasn't "grr she did the thing i dont like she must die" from not insane Kralkatorrik but from his madness/torment which he was compelled for some unknown amount of time. At least a cycle or two.

Or rather we're able to see that now given new information.

But yeah even before he was properly out of his mind, from the perspective of a mortal destroying the world and everything you love is pretty bad and not good. We'd have to negotiate on that point.

[kasoki.5180]

He might not have been a good guy but his monologue implies he wasnt really a bad guy also.

If im not mistaken he says its the torrment that made him "destroy".

To be fair. Terms such as "good" and "bad" are rarely applicable and there is no reason to think of pre torrment Kralkkatorik in either black or white

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

From his dialogue, my understanding of Kralkatorrik wasn't that he wasn't a bad guy, but just that he wasn't without redeeming qualities. Mainly, my interpretation was that he was fully indifferent to mortals, uncaring about them entirely, but he cared deeply for his own family. If it wasn't Aurene trying to replace him (or Glint or Vlast), my interpretation would be that he'd be against it all still. He was only willing to give up because it was Aurene and because he had undesirably killed Glint.

Basically, an evil, apathetic villain who cared deeply for his family.

[CETheLucid.3964]

@"kasoki.5180" said:He might not have been a good guy but his monologue implies he wasnt really a bad guy also.

If im not mistaken he says its the torrment that made him "destroy".

To be fair. Terms such as "good" and "bad" are rarely applicable and there is no reason to think of pre torrment Kralkkatorik in either black or white

It's a matter of perspective. If pre-insanity the EDs were still ending the world per the cycle that they do even if it's business as usual for them, from the perspective of the sentient thinking, feeling, mortal beings? That's very bad. There's no way around that. We're not mere ants.

It crosses into straight up evil if he knew it didn't have to go down that way. Being sympathetic near the end of his life doesn't make up for those cycles upon cycles of worldwide genocide let alone the lives lost in this current one.

However, Aurene is a revolutionary concept and it's more or less confirmed Glint came up with all of this when Kralkatorrik was already insane. So it get's a bit muddy. Did Kralkatorrik/other EDs in a sound state of mind know you can balance the magic of Tyria without killing it's sentient life?

If yes, evil. If no, innocent in the strictest definition of the word. Certainly not good. Not bad. Just didn't know better. Ignorant.

[AzureNightmare.3914]

It's really hard to say unless we get more definitive backstory on them, but I do think they're basically inherent aspects of the world that have become corrupted over time, becoming as they are now after many dragonrises with their "torment" becoming worse. I think at one point their purpose was indeed to "reset" the world when there was too much magic at the cost of all mortal life, a solemn but necessary duty. Wake up, eat magic to stabilize the world, then go back to sleep.

At some point I think this cycle started having a mental toil on them in the form of the Torment. The Dragons are all extremely intelligent, malicious beings (special mention goes to Mordremoth and his ego and Jormag and how he specifically seeks to corrupt the strong into being his willing servants unlike the rest) that have motivations relating to their Torment. I agree with what Vancho.8750 said: Zhaitan desiring an immortal kingdom, Mordremoth wanting to become the world, Jormag creating a brutally violent winter world where only the strong can survive, etc. Maybe Kralk sincerely wanted a family he could love, but due to his nature could never truly have such a thing?

The way I see it, if Kralk had the Torment before Zhaitan's death, then they all have the Torment as well. I don't see any reasonable theory as to why only he had such a suffering and not the rest of his kin. Although his became much, much worse after eating two of his brothers' and Balthazar's magic, making him outright suicidal and wanting to destroy all of reality just to make his agony end. Perhaps at one point they tried to leave sentient life alone, or perhaps only absorb what they felt was truly necessary to maintain stability? Hell, maybe they were able to just eat excess magic soaking up without destroying life before going insane?

But yeah, that's my theory. The Dragons were once much more neutral (hard to say "benevolent") roles in their regards to how the world works, but their Torment has caused them to stray from their original paths, because of the torment. Thoughts?

[Mephu Tahm Jr.1962]

@"CETheLucid.3964" said:Aurene is definitely an extraordinary figure at present. It might have to do with her affinity to and connection to mortals. She has a pulse on the people of Tyria.

This reminds me of the Matrix where Neo develops an affinity towards Trinity and so decides not to reset the Matrix, but has to die to save Zion, yet that's only possible because he "merged" with Smith causing him to become all-powerful yet unstable, and what does Smith call the Oracle? "Mom." And all this was the Oracle's plan.