Power shiro still viable in solo Q?

[Sampson.2403]

After the recent nerfs? I see that it's still listed on meta battle near the top.

[meri.9187]

Until offhand sword gets rightfully nerfed this build will always be propped up into the meta unless they destroy the core of the build even more. Which is probably what will happen lol

[Justine.6351]

"We decided rev needed better access to sustain so we added healing orbs to that one skill on offhand sword. Lowered it's damage by 5% in wvw and 50% in spvp to compensate."

[narcx.3570]

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Until offhand sword gets rightfully nerfed this build will always be propped up into the meta unless they destroy the core of the build even more. Which is probably what will happen lol

I don't know why rev players want OH sword nerfed so much... If you don't think it's fun, that's whatever, but was it more fun being so bad in the first 6 months of PoF that they had to invent a new tier just to describe how unviable Rev was?

As it is now, the extra burst skills of OHsword are the only thing keeping Rev relevant, and if people don't like them, that's fine, they don't have to play it, there's 8 other profs out there... But like, within the current scope of the game and meta, you cannot nerf oh sword and keep rev viable, not even if you rework shield or axe for utility. Even if they reworked shield into a S+ tier defensive weapon, it wouldn't work for rev since their core mechanical design won't let them hang in long fights against classes that can use their skills off cooldown, unrestricted by an energy system. This is why a bunker rev build will never be able to out bunker other classes and it's why a dueling rev has to be quite a bit better than their opponent. On the other hand, proper use of the dual Legend/Energy system allows for Rev to be more effective than other classes in the short term, which is why Rev's such a potent +1/burst class. But, without OH sword, a rev doesn't have enough skills in its kit to capitalize on all the benefits of their short term advantage, and they go back to being unable to do anything except die, like when PoF first came out.

[LucianDK.8615]

OH sword is simply critical for revenants or they will be even more of a joke damagewise.

[meri.9187]

@narcx.3570 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Until offhand sword gets rightfully nerfed this build will always be propped up into the meta unless they destroy the core of the build even more. Which is probably what will happen lol

I don't know why rev players want OH sword nerfed so much... If you don't think it's fun, that's whatever, but was it more fun being so bad in the first 6 months of PoF that they had to invent a new tier just to describe how unviable Rev was?

As it is now, the extra burst skills of OHsword are the only thing keeping Rev relevant, and if people don't like them, that's fine, they don't have to play it, there's 8 other profs out there... But like,

within the current scope of the game and meta, you cannot nerf oh sword and keep rev viable, not even if you rework shield or axe for utility.

Even if they reworked shield into a S+ tier defensive weapon, it wouldn't work for rev since their core mechanical design won't let them hang in long fights against classes that can use their skills off cooldown, unrestricted by an energy system. This is why a bunker rev build will never be able to out bunker other classes and it's why a dueling rev has to be quite a bit better than their opponent. On the other hand, proper use of the dual Legend/Energy system allows for Rev to be more effective than other classes in the short term, which is why Rev's such a potent +1/burst class. But, without OH sword, a rev doesn't have enough skills in its kit to capitalize on all the benefits of their short term advantage, and they go back to being unable to do anything except die, like when PoF first came out.

I'm tired of it being completely reliant on offhand sword when I'm a rev who has been playing since its release and prefers the days of having axe/shield offhands be viable options while also having a class that isn't totally useless outside of its damage. Clearly rev used to be just fine with axe/shield when retribution wasn't literal garbage and before all the other assorted damage nerfs. I think you're actually on the same page with me here- OH sword is the only thing keeping rev in the meta, the difference is that I don't like that. I don't want to see the core of revenant destroyed even more because the class is still too strong due to a different problem, which is offhand sword. I think we can agree that the core of this class has already been stomped on, eaten, and spit out.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Until offhand sword gets rightfully nerfed this build will always be propped up into the meta unless they destroy the core of the build even more. Which is probably what will happen lol

I don't know why rev players want OH sword nerfed so much... If you don't think it's fun, that's whatever, but was it more fun being so bad in the first 6 months of PoF that they had to invent a new tier just to describe how unviable Rev was?

As it is now, the extra burst skills of OHsword are the only thing keeping Rev relevant, and if people don't like them, that's fine, they don't have to play it, there's 8 other profs out there... But like,

within the current scope of the game and meta, you cannot nerf oh sword and keep rev viable, not even if you rework shield or axe for utility.

Even if they reworked shield into a S+ tier defensive weapon, it wouldn't work for rev since their core mechanical design won't let them hang in long fights against classes that can use their skills off cooldown, unrestricted by an energy system. This is why a bunker rev build will never be able to out bunker other classes and it's why a dueling rev has to be quite a bit better than their opponent. On the other hand, proper use of the dual Legend/Energy system allows for Rev to be more effective than other classes in the short term, which is why Rev's such a potent +1/burst class. But, without OH sword, a rev doesn't have enough skills in its kit to capitalize on all the benefits of their short term advantage, and they go back to being unable to do anything except die, like when PoF first came out.

I'm tired of it being completely reliant on offhand sword when I'm a rev who has been playing since its release and prefers the days of having axe/shield offhands be viable options while also having a class that isn't totally useless outside of its damage. Clearly rev used to be just fine with axe/shield when retribution wasn't literal garbage and before all the other assorted damage nerfs. I think you're actually on the same page with me here- OH sword is the only thing keeping rev in the meta, the difference is that I don't like that. I don't want to see the core of revenant destroyed even more because the class is still too strong due to a different problem, which is offhand sword. I think we can agree that the core of this class has already been stomped on, eaten, and spit out.

Why not buff axe and shield? OH sword is strong, certainly, but isn’t really that crazy in terms of what it can do when compared to all classes. We all know Anet rarely reverts nerfs (even old nerfs), so I find it unlikely they’d nerf OH sword and rebuff other damage aspects of the class that have already been nerfed to compensate The losses to offhand sword. It seems better to me to bring axe and shield up to par than to continue to dismantle aspects of our power build. If other aspects of the class need attention then those build types and traits (condi/bunker/support) should be buffed individually as well in order to provide for more variety while, again, not destroying our best build.

[Catchyfx.5768]

Variety is thing we miss. Last nerf cripled almost every glint+shiro build. To deal dmg you need 25 might stacks. So old meta burst build is now way to go. So nerf kinda useless. I agree that without offhand sword and 25 mightstacks there isnt place for pRev. Sw2 and sw3 are unreliable. Sw4 and sw5 you can focus on 1 target.Anyway it is anets decision. If they design something that works with 25 might and then they start to nerf mightgeneration. It doesnt make sense. Sw4 have same casttime as gravedigger but 3/4 of its dmg(that is worst if you hit more then 1 target). So still dont get saltiness about it.

[Arkantos.7460]

yep just take not roiling mists .. its not worthy

[narcx.3570]

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Until offhand sword gets rightfully nerfed this build will always be propped up into the meta unless they destroy the core of the build even more. Which is probably what will happen lol

I don't know why rev players want OH sword nerfed so much... If you don't think it's fun, that's whatever, but was it more fun being so bad in the first 6 months of PoF that they had to invent a new tier just to describe how unviable Rev was?

As it is now, the extra burst skills of OHsword are the only thing keeping Rev relevant, and if people don't like them, that's fine, they don't have to play it, there's 8 other profs out there... But like,

within the current scope of the game and meta, you cannot nerf oh sword and keep rev viable, not even if you rework shield or axe for utility.

Even if they reworked shield into a S+ tier defensive weapon, it wouldn't work for rev since their core mechanical design won't let them hang in long fights against classes that can use their skills off cooldown, unrestricted by an energy system. This is why a bunker rev build will never be able to out bunker other classes and it's why a dueling rev has to be quite a bit better than their opponent. On the other hand, proper use of the dual Legend/Energy system allows for Rev to be more effective than other classes in the short term, which is why Rev's such a potent +1/burst class. But, without OH sword, a rev doesn't have enough skills in its kit to capitalize on all the benefits of their short term advantage, and they go back to being unable to do anything except die, like when PoF first came out.

I'm tired of it being completely reliant on offhand sword when I'm a rev who has been playing since its release and prefers the days of having axe/shield offhands be viable options while also having a class that isn't totally useless outside of its damage. Clearly rev used to be just fine with axe/shield when retribution wasn't literal garbage and before all the other assorted damage nerfs. I think you're actually on the same page with me here- OH sword is the only thing keeping rev in the meta, the difference is that I don't like that. I don't want to see the core of revenant destroyed even more because the class is still too strong due to a different problem, which is offhand sword. I think we can agree that the core of this class has already been stomped on, eaten, and spit out.

Like I said, I'm speaking to the current state of the game and meta tho... Rev was fine with Axe/Shield, but it had nothing to do with retribution--the ret variant was always pretty garbo compared to Dev/Invo, imo... The only reason Ret Rev even worked was because sword/sotm were so overturned. It did have everything to do with how everything (damage, sustain, boons, boon removal) was so toned down back then tho--but then the PoF power creep left that version of Rev just so, so far behind. OP might generation like IR and OH sword's burst are more like a "PvP PoF power creep update" for Revs, cuz kitten knows Renegade gave them nothing there. Maybe they could buff other stuff to give Rev's options, but honestly, damage is where it's gonna have to be for revs (sorry shield, sorry ret, sorry jails--no matter how buffed you get).

It comes down to the class design. Rev's a class who has a huge advantage in the short term, because you can pump out 15 seconds worth of skill balance within the span of a couple seconds by playing around your legend swap. This is going to make them awesome at burst damage, burst heals, burst cc, burst whatever, but then they get handcuffed by that same design when fights go longer. You'd have to redesign the entire core dynamic of the class to address this, and honestly that isn't going to happen.

Like as a thought experiment, imagine if they gave Shield and Axe just INSANE buffs... Like morphed them into the most impossibly strong versions of themselves. (Not saying they should make any of these changes, but just for hypothetical sake.) Imagine if Shield 5, instead of being a block, just made you invulnerable the entire time--or even better it had the same functionality as Infused Light. And that shield 4, created a well on the ground where you targeted it that pulsed heals/stability/condi cleanse/whatever. Would this be enough to let you play a successful bunker build? Of course not... because you would run out of energy long before a Scrapper or FB got whittled down through their endless cool downs. You would 100% fold first. Same story with axe... You could make the teleport not useless and even buff it (ground targeting teleport, aoe chill/slow/daze explosion where you land) make rift stronger (make it pulse cc, why not), and you would still only be able to +1 gank people or blanket it on team fights--and in both cases you would be contributing more to the situation through straight damage pressure.

It's just the way it is... :anguished:

If they somehow did make Shield/Axe competitive choices for Power Rev like it used to be, wouldn't that be even worse for build diversity? Like yeah, it was cool before that you could bring axe or shield or (if you wanted to tilt your team b4 the game started) old oh sword... But when it came down to it, you were still playing Power Herald. If you really want to see more build diversity out of the class, wouldn't it be better for them to rework axe into some beastly condi burst weapon that made playing Condi Herald/Core/Ren at least somewhat more enticing?

[youle.5824]

@narcx.3570 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:

@narcx.3570 said:

@"ventusthunder.5067" said:Until offhand sword gets rightfully nerfed this build will always be propped up into the meta unless they destroy the core of the build even more. Which is probably what will happen lol

I don't know why rev players want OH sword nerfed so much... If you don't think it's fun, that's whatever, but was it more fun being so bad in the first 6 months of PoF that they had to invent a new tier just to describe how unviable Rev was?

As it is now, the extra burst skills of OHsword are the only thing keeping Rev relevant, and if people don't like them, that's fine, they don't have to play it, there's 8 other profs out there... But like,

within the current scope of the game and meta, you cannot nerf oh sword and keep rev viable, not even if you rework shield or axe for utility.

Even if they reworked shield into a S+ tier defensive weapon, it wouldn't work for rev since their core mechanical design won't let them hang in long fights against classes that can use their skills off cooldown, unrestricted by an energy system. This is why a bunker rev build will never be able to out bunker other classes and it's why a dueling rev has to be quite a bit better than their opponent. On the other hand, proper use of the dual Legend/Energy system allows for Rev to be more effective than other classes in the short term, which is why Rev's such a potent +1/burst class. But, without OH sword, a rev doesn't have enough skills in its kit to capitalize on all the benefits of their short term advantage, and they go back to being unable to do anything except die, like when PoF first came out.

I'm tired of it being completely reliant on offhand sword when I'm a rev who has been playing since its release and prefers the days of having axe/shield offhands be viable options while also having a class that isn't totally useless outside of its damage. Clearly rev used to be just fine with axe/shield when retribution wasn't literal garbage and before all the other assorted damage nerfs. I think you're actually on the same page with me here- OH sword is the only thing keeping rev in the meta, the difference is that I don't like that. I don't want to see the core of revenant destroyed even more because the class is still too strong due to a different problem, which is offhand sword. I think we can agree that the core of this class has already been stomped on, eaten, and spit out.

Like I said, I'm speaking to the current state of the game and meta tho... Rev was fine with Axe/Shield, but it had nothing to do with retribution--the ret variant was always pretty garbo compared to Dev/Invo, imo... The only reason Ret Rev even worked was because sword/sotm were so overturned. It did have everything to do with how everything (damage, sustain, boons, boon removal) was so toned down back then tho--but then the PoF power creep left that version of Rev just so, so far behind. OP might generation like IR and OH sword's burst are more like a "PvP PoF power creep update" for Revs, cuz kitten knows Renegade gave them nothing there. Maybe they could buff other stuff to give Rev's options, but honestly, damage is where it's gonna have to be for revs (sorry shield, sorry ret, sorry jails--no matter how buffed you get).

It comes down to the class design. Rev's a class who has a huge advantage in the short term, because you can pump out 15 seconds worth of skill balance within the span of a couple seconds by playing around your legend swap. This is going to make them awesome at burst damage, burst heals, burst cc, burst whatever, but then they get handcuffed by that same design when fights go longer. You'd have to redesign the entire core dynamic of the class to address this, and honestly that isn't going to happen.

Like as a thought experiment, imagine if they gave Shield and Axe just

INSANE

buffs... Like morphed them into the most impossibly strong versions of themselves. (Not saying they should make any of these changes, but just for hypothetical sake.) Imagine if Shield 5, instead of being a block, just made you invulnerable the entire time--or even better it had the same functionality as Infused Light. And that shield 4, created a well on the ground where you targeted it that pulsed heals/stability/condi cleanse/whatever. Would this be enough to let you play a successful bunker build? Of course not... because you would run out of energy long before a Scrapper or FB got whittled down through their endless cool downs. You would 100% fold first. Same story with axe... You could make the teleport not useless and even buff it (ground targeting teleport, aoe chill/slow/daze explosion where you land) make rift stronger (make it pulse cc, why not), and you would still only be able to +1 gank people or blanket it on team fights--and in both cases you would be contributing more to the situation through straight damage pressure.

It's just the way it is... :anguished:

If they somehow did make Shield/Axe competitive choices for Power Rev like it used to be, wouldn't that be even

worse

for build diversity? Like yeah, it was cool before that you could bring axe or shield or (if you wanted to tilt your team b4 the game started) old oh sword... But when it came down to it, you were still playing Power Herald. If you really want to see more build diversity out of the class, wouldn't it be better for them to rework axe into some beastly condi burst weapon that made playing Condi Herald/Core/Ren at least somewhat more enticing?

Truly spoken like someone that doesnt understand rev xD

[Za Shaloc.3908]

The way I see it is:-Would I rather see offhand sword nerfed or a cooldown attached to Riposting Shadows? Offhand sword nerf.-Would I rather see offhand sword nerfed or an increased cast time on Phase Traversal? Offhand sword nerf.-Would I rather see offhand sword nerfed or a cast time attached to Infuse Light? Offhand sword nerf.-Would I rather see offhand sword nerfed or an increase in facet upkeep costs? Offhand sword nerf.

These are of course just some random examples, but there are a lot of stupid and misguided changes ANet could make that would really cripple the class' flow, playstyle, fun, and general viability. Before the most recent patch I would have said Notoriety would be a fine target for a nerf, but I don't even know at this point considering how sPvP might gen has been hit pretty hard. Being as objective as I can, I think sword 5 damage could use a shave as it already brings a ton of utility. Sword 4 feels fine to me considering the cast time it has attached to it. In my eyes, Roiling Mists was just a glimpse of future changes that could happen to the class. What I fear most is that Shiro is going to get nuked hard and the most defining legend of the class will be left in a hamstrung state all because of its overperformance of one specific role that is largely dictated by the meta that surrounds it.

Just the two cents of an average WvW Rev player who really appreciates the class in its entirety and plays just about any build under the sun.

[Catchyfx.5768]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:t. In my eyes, Roiling Mists was just a glimpse of future changes that could happen to the class. What I fear most is that Shiro is going to get nuked hard and the most defining legend of the class will be left in a hamstrung state all because of its overperformance of one specific role that is largely dictated by the meta that surrounds it.

I have a same feeling, Shiro gets hit and he is gonna fall to the jalis/mallyx lvl. It is esier kill one legend then properly buff 2 others. And you can see at other proffesions that this is classic "balance" strategy. They dont use Shield in herald? well lets kill other OH weapons and they maybe start using it.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

They were the wrong changes.

Instead of toning down some of the silly buffs to burst rev got in the past year along with the Herald rework, they instead decided the problem lies in things that existed back when Power Shiro was considered a low tier build. 250 extra power from Notoriety? Nah, that can stay. Double rev comp teams stacking vulnerability for 12% extra damage? Nah m8 that rework made perfect sense. Offhand sword? Derp.

Clearly, what needed to be done was random might duration oh wait Power Shiro meta runs Devestation/Invocation/Herald and thus can still get 25 might so uh....? Derp? Oh yeah and nerf auto attack by 10% even though people mainly die to PT+sword 4/5 burst. All nerfing autos really does is prevent Rev from pressuring tank builds like scrapper, which is pointless since a good scrapper already doesn't die 1v1 to anything.

Seriously though.-Revert the nerfs from last patch. Not because Rev didn't need damage nerfs but because they nerfed the wrong things.-Revert Notoriety so it is no longer giving 250 extra free power to meta rev.-Split Targeted destruction again so it has a max bonus of 7% in PvP so double Rev comps are no longer ripping peoples booty holes in two-Nerf herald damage bonuses by about 5% total-Change sword 4 back into a block first part of the skill and shackling wave dealing 30% less damage. Or make the number of strikes Shackling wave does dependent on how many attacks it blocks. This change alone if nothing else would fix so much.-Increase the condi cleanses so Rev doesnt go back to trash tier as soon as the meta shifts back to condi-Nerf staff 2 damage by 15% and put daze back on it

TL;DR Rev needs nerfs to the damage/burst buffs it has received in the past year while buffing cleanse and utility.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

After reading all of these comments it’s like no one realizes we directly compete with thief (and mesmer) for the +1 spot on team comps and Rev NEEDS damage to be able to do that. If damage is toned down too much we’ll just get replaced by thief again. Also rev will almost certainly never be a great bunker due to its core mechanics, so sustain buffs wouldn’t be super helpful as damage nerf compensation.

[Isle of Stars.3049]

Lmao you guys are calling the shots for a Rev damage nerf, and exactly here during this bunker meta where everyone doesn't seem to die.

Just get the Renegade rolling. Of all the specs available in the game I see that one spec in sPvP like a dying breed.