Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Ranger changes May 28th (Shouts)


Dragana.1497

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 60
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@"EnderzShadow.2506" said:Hoping this makes sense with future patches/changes. Nothing ever does.

-2 patches in a row Ranger gets these changes.First with Druid petand now with Shouts.

It won't. The framing they're giving means our shouts are now special pet reliant versions. Unless necro is getting some minion master spec that boosts their own minions with "commands" this isn't new skill type for a new Espec wave.

The alternative is we get regular shouts with the next Espec which sounds incredibly boring and not even worth buying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most likely just the preparation of a new Elite Specialisation.

But druid needs finally buffs for PvP. Just put Celestial Shadow and Druid's Clarity in master traits instead of one being adapt trait and almost all complains from early HoT and after are fixed. Then we can buff accordingly. Also buffs for all pets as druid pets are weaker anyway now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:So everyone complaining about losing a synergy that removes a singular condition on a shout, forgetting things such as bear stance, healing spring, Druid clear, weapon swap sigils, resistance from pets, all on top on wilderness survival synergy?

For PvP Druid isn't viable. Core isn't really viable. Because the pet dies too easily with the amount of damage in the game (especially with the stat nerf on Druid). The problem is build diversity and viability. To be viable we need some Condi clear, you can't have none and expect to be in plat 2 or maybe even play 1. That means we can run what you say or wilderness survival. This is where diversity comes into play too...

If I run wilderness survival, I get Condi clear and survival skills and get rugged growth and arguably rangers best heal, troll ungüent, due to the sustain it gives. The sustain from WS is amazing.

On the other hand, If i want to run without survival skills and WS. Then I have bear stance, healing spring, evasive purity, or something like leadership runes, and signet of renewal.

These two heals simply do not provide enough healing to sustain in the current game with the amount of damages out there. If I need to save my heal for Condi clear... i am in trouble. That means If i want to sustain and use these heals? I need WS for rugged growth... which nullifies the point in using these heals. +healing spring doesn't cleanse fast enough. A scourge can insta put 4 condis on you, now what? You cant afford to stay in that area in your spring in PvP.

Runes and signet of renewal? Both have too high cool downs (60s) to be able to be effective for Condi clear. There just too much reapplication for that to be viable. + signet of renewal can easily fail, or kitten up your merge and unmerge since it doesn't work while merged.

Evasive purity? Not enough.

Why is this a big deal? Shouts gave just enough reactive Condi clear that you could get by. It wasn't optimal but it was viable. Something that these other cleanses just aren't.

What this means?Now for PvP we have to run soulbeast. We have to run wilderness survival. Then what? The next traitline with the most synergy is beastmastery. We now have one build. With shouts... we could at least run MM or NM instead of WS.

So that's the problem. Changing this kills build diversity because other cleanse skills arent good enough to compensate for this change. We should not be forced to run wilderness survival.

So you’re telling me a single rune build that allows you to cleanse
one
condition per skill is keeping these builds afloat? Really? I find this quite hard to believe.

Some of them, yes. Here's why, if I run heal, sic em, and protect me that is 3 condis cleared every about 24s. I also get my elite. If a random burn guard jumps me I can survive by actively reacting with a cleanse. If a reaper chills me, same thing. If a mesmer condi loads me up maybe I can cleanse the confusion or torment and live and get away. If i need to, i can spam all 3 or 4 depending on whats available to get the cleanse i need. It's not optimal for me to run shouts. But it can work because im trading a severe weakness to condis for more dmg by dropping WS. Without cleanse, any of these things and more would kill me. Sigils aren't enough. Runes for elite cleanse aren't enough. And like I said the other heal options aren't enough sustain. So dropping soldier rune for ranger makes anything with condis (even power classes) much more likely to kill me as even cripple becomes dangerous now.

I solo queued to rank 26 last season without WS... that would have been significantly harder and maybe even impossible without soldier runes.

Again, this worked because of a trade off. I dropped the amazing sustainability of WS for the extra damage of MM. Even then MM is still lackluster in comparison and something that can be bolstered with Sic Em and We Heal as One. Sic Em with the bonus damage that is pretty much meta for ranger atm and We Heal as One because of the might stacking - both of these adding even more damage to MM. On top of that, I was able to synergize well the with the utility of Protect Me and interrupt/CC traits. Nevertheless, these skills are a little lackluster (besides sic em) without these synergies. Their synergy with soldier runes (and that stats from soldier runes) helped make up for the deficit of giving up WS and their being weaker than survival skills.

I'll do what I can to see what I can make work... but this is a huge blow to diversity. And I'm extremely disappointed we are getting pigeon-holed even deeper than we already are into WS.

I used soldier runes as the main condi clear on my dazer druid build(MM/BM/Druid). The build suffered many nerfs over time, and I kept on adjusting. No Adjustment room left, RIP . No excuse to this change other than they are developing a new specialization or something that involves shouts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some interactions are now missing (I was only using it it during core days and sometimes druid in pvp) but I am more curious about the future runes which will affect commands.I think the theme of "command" will fit nicely necro or revenant. Too bad I expect a 1 year period before seeing what they do with that :anguished:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"aymnad.9023" said:I think the theme of "command" will fit nicely necro or revenant. Too bad I expect a 1 year period before seeing what they do with that :anguished:

Necromancer? Maybe. Revenant? Their skills ain't "classified".

I'd say that mesmers would have huge potential (100% chance to be OP) with commands affecting their clones. Engineer could give command to some mechanical thing (yeah, another minion spec...). Elementalist could probably end up as a summoner with an elemental minion and some command which would be somehow in line with an already existing gameplay involving glyphs. Guardian could also create an minion out of their "light" element affinity.

So all in all from my point of view mesmer, elementalist, (guardian), engineer and necromancer could end up with an e-spec involving "commands".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Sandzibar.5134" said:kitten is a command skill?

the link on the wiki for resounding timber for commands goes to a number of guardian skills.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Resounding_Timbre

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Command

So essentially all Ranger skills that used to be classified as shouts are now commands. Makes sense as they are pet command skills. And here I was thinking my entire build was going to get ripped.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't touched this game since December but anyone serious about condition removal used Runes of the Revenant or Runes of Resistance. Runes of the Trooper have not been meta for any content for years.

Removing one condition at a time has not been viable since pre-HoT. All the whining in this thread is standard fare whenever Anet updates ranger, hence why they've learned to ignore this forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Soilder.3607 said:I haven't touched this game since December but anyone serious about condition removal used Runes of the Revenant or Runes of Resistance. Runes of the Trooper have not been meta for any content for years.

Removing one condition at a time has not been viable since pre-HoT. All the whining in this thread is standard fare whenever Anet updates ranger, hence why they've learned to ignore this forum.

Ya, it is much better to take the opinion of someone who is not even playing the game.Trooper runes was not meta but it was great for some niche builds. It worked great on one of my builds. It also got buffed several mouths ago.The change had no balance purpose, shouts are a victim for some future development plans, because we don't know what they are we can only react to what we know at the present, Another strange and unnecessary nerf. Hope it will be worth it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"aymnad.9023" said:I think the theme of "command" will fit nicely necro or revenant. Too bad I expect a 1 year period before seeing what they do with that :anguished:

Necromancer? Maybe. Revenant? Their skills ain't "classified".

I'd say that mesmers would have huge potential (100% chance to be OP) with commands affecting their clones. Engineer could give command to some mechanical thing (yeah, another minion spec...). Elementalist could probably end up as a summoner with an elemental minion and some command which would be somehow in line with an already existing gameplay involving glyphs. Guardian could also create an minion out of their "light" element affinity.

So all in all from my point of view mesmer, elementalist, (guardian), engineer and necromancer could end up with an e-spec involving "commands".Oh right engi can work too ! I thought about mesmers but since they "destroy" the clones I do not see how to make this work without giving them a huge burst. (or maybe give a single long lasting clone ). For guards maybe spirit weapons will enter this categorie or something new.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Soilder.3607 said:I haven't touched this game since December but anyone serious about condition removal used Runes of the Revenant or Runes of Resistance. Runes of the Trooper have not been meta for any content for years.

Removing one condition at a time has not been viable since pre-HoT. All the whining in this thread is standard fare whenever Anet updates ranger, hence why they've learned to ignore this forum.

Eurantien (one of the best players in EU, as far as I know) put it best earlier in the thread - Runes of the Soldier are certainly not meta, but you could make it work if you wanted to drop Wilderness Survival. In fact, that cleanse-on-shout was the last remaining workable alternative to WS, and now it's gone... and we get nothing in return. Until this change, I actually switched into Solider runes occasionally in spvp if the enemy team comp looked right for it. Just not possible anymore.

As for your later point about whining in the ranger subforum, there are times where I'd be inclined to agree, but this is not one of them. There really seems to be a lack of vision about what they want ranger to do, and it shows in a series of plain un-useful and damaging changes that have come non-stop in recent months.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really hope that this is a sign that elite specs are coming a lot sooner that I expected. Otherwise, why couldn't they just make this change when the new elite spec came out? If that's not the case, then they thought these runes were so OP for only ranger. I cant believe that.

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:So everyone complaining about losing a synergy that removes a singular condition on a shout, forgetting things such as bear stance, healing spring, Druid clear, weapon swap sigils, resistance from pets, all on top on wilderness survival synergy?

For PvP Druid isn't viable. Core isn't really viable. Because the pet dies too easily with the amount of damage in the game (especially with the stat nerf on Druid). The problem is build diversity and viability. To be viable we need some Condi clear, you can't have none and expect to be in plat 2 or maybe even play 1. That means we can run what you say or wilderness survival. This is where diversity comes into play too...

If I run wilderness survival, I get Condi clear and survival skills and get rugged growth and arguably rangers best heal, troll ungüent, due to the sustain it gives. The sustain from WS is amazing.

On the other hand, If i want to run without survival skills and WS. Then I have bear stance, healing spring, evasive purity, or something like leadership runes, and signet of renewal.

These two heals simply do not provide enough healing to sustain in the current game with the amount of damages out there. If I need to save my heal for Condi clear... i am in trouble. That means If i want to sustain and use these heals? I need WS for rugged growth... which nullifies the point in using these heals. +healing spring doesn't cleanse fast enough. A scourge can insta put 4 condis on you, now what? You cant afford to stay in that area in your spring in PvP.

Runes and signet of renewal? Both have too high cool downs (60s) to be able to be effective for Condi clear. There just too much reapplication for that to be viable. + signet of renewal can easily fail, or kitten up your merge and unmerge since it doesn't work while merged.

Evasive purity? Not enough.

Why is this a big deal? Shouts gave just enough reactive Condi clear that you could get by. It wasn't optimal but it was viable. Something that these other cleanses just aren't.

What this means?Now for PvP we have to run soulbeast. We have to run wilderness survival. Then what? The next traitline with the most synergy is beastmastery. We now have one build. With shouts... we could at least run MM or NM instead of WS.

So that's the problem. Changing this kills build diversity because other cleanse skills arent good enough to compensate for this change. We should not be forced to run wilderness survival.

I've been having a lot of success with rune of antitoxin in WvW for condi clear. If a stun break clears taunt or fear, extra condi cleared. Dolyak stance, if it stun breaks a fear or taunt or clears chill, cripple or immob also clears another condi. This works great vs necro condi spikes. Same for merged F3... and as I type I realize that I don't think they are available in PvP =/.

Only other weird combo I could think of is rune of (any that reduces condi duration), emphatic bond and natural stride. Without WvW food, still probably meh.

I think I was around plat 1 with just bear and dolyak stance + sigil of escape/cleansing + rune of leadership. Also not traited lighting reflexes vs immob fear etc. That was MM/BM/SB zerker sic'em glass.

I'm just rambling at this point. I hope you find something that works for you. I've never relied on that combo but this change sucks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I already don't play my druid anymore except for in fractals - it was my main class forever (check my tagged image!!). Now again they go and nerf it.

Last patches druid changes made it so we got:

  • Heavy nerf to our pets; damage is somewhat okay when you stack it with 25 stacks of might but they die incredibly fast.
  • Our overall damage makes open world PvE boring - speccing for more damage requires a big investment into it, while losing our ability to heal to any noticeable effect.
  • Glyph of empowerment - less team support on our nerfed damage.
  • New elite Glyph of stars, is really bad. I've tried so hard to make any use of this through both PvE and WvW - it's just unusable.
  • Previous changes to our spirits have made their boons tedious and unreliable - even spamming the spirits on cooldown to keep them near get them instantly wiped as mobs focus them rather than me or my pet.

Now they nerf a couple extra builds that mostly only druid made use of, with shouts.

I was optimistic at first, but over time of trying anything to make my druid fun again - it's just simply boring and not as effective anywhere outside of raids and fractals. I've tried and tried and tried, to find any way to make it both effective and fun for me - especially since it's my toon I've got near 100% completion on every single map in the game, I've also got the start of working on legendary armor on him which I now just want a refund for so I can put it towards a new main.

I'm still trying to find a new main that was as fun as my druid used to be to me; I've made an Elementalist but I'm not sure if it's completely filling my druid void. I'm sorry for any reading this seeing it as "whining", it's just I was attached to that toon and this constant "Yo-Yo" balance that completes changes the feel of characters; sometimes outright destroying them is really pushing me away from the game that I've loved so much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

@AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:So everyone complaining about losing a synergy that removes a singular condition on a shout, forgetting things such as bear stance, healing spring, Druid clear, weapon swap sigils, resistance from pets, all on top on wilderness survival synergy?

For PvP Druid isn't viable. Core isn't really viable. Because the pet dies too easily with the amount of damage in the game (especially with the stat nerf on Druid). The problem is build diversity and viability. To be viable we need some Condi clear, you can't have none and expect to be in plat 2 or maybe even play 1. That means we can run what you say or wilderness survival. This is where diversity comes into play too...

If I run wilderness survival, I get Condi clear and survival skills and get rugged growth and arguably rangers best heal, troll ungüent, due to the sustain it gives. The sustain from WS is amazing.

On the other hand, If i want to run without survival skills and WS. Then I have bear stance, healing spring, evasive purity, or something like leadership runes, and signet of renewal.

These two heals simply do not provide enough healing to sustain in the current game with the amount of damages out there. If I need to save my heal for Condi clear... i am in trouble. That means If i want to sustain and use these heals? I need WS for rugged growth... which nullifies the point in using these heals. +healing spring doesn't cleanse fast enough. A scourge can insta put 4 condis on you, now what? You cant afford to stay in that area in your spring in PvP.

Runes and signet of renewal? Both have too high cool downs (60s) to be able to be effective for Condi clear. There just too much reapplication for that to be viable. + signet of renewal can easily fail, or kitten up your merge and unmerge since it doesn't work while merged.

Evasive purity? Not enough.

Why is this a big deal? Shouts gave just enough reactive Condi clear that you could get by. It wasn't optimal but it was viable. Something that these other cleanses just aren't.

What this means?Now for PvP we have to run soulbeast. We have to run wilderness survival. Then what? The next traitline with the most synergy is beastmastery. We now have one build. With shouts... we could at least run MM or NM instead of WS.

So that's the problem. Changing this kills build diversity because other cleanse skills arent good enough to compensate for this change. We should not be forced to run wilderness survival.

So you’re telling me a single rune build that allows you to cleanse
one
condition per skill is keeping these builds afloat? Really? I find this quite hard to believe..@Soilder.3607 said:I haven't touched this game since December but anyone serious about condition removal used Runes of the Revenant or Runes of Resistance. Runes of the Trooper have not been meta for any content for
years
.

Removing one condition at a time has not been viable since pre-HoT. All the whining in this thread is standard fare whenever Anet updates ranger, hence why they've learned to ignore this forum.

I'm glad you've come in here to look down at everybody and tell them Anet can do no wrong because you have accidently raised a bigger problem. If this wasn't to nerf a build (which it probably wasn't since trooper runes/shouts were niche nowadays and only used for fun) then the change has no reason, they have wasted resources for literally no reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Soilder.3607 said:I haven't touched this game since December but anyone serious about condition removal used Runes of the Revenant or Runes of Resistance. Runes of the Trooper have not been meta for any content for years.

Removing one condition at a time has not been viable since pre-HoT. All the whining in this thread is standard fare whenever Anet updates ranger, hence why they've learned to ignore this forum.

You're out of touch. Revenant and resistance were meta because of boon share on boonbeast. Boonbeast isn't meta anymore. Lb/gs is more meta now and there are the WS version and the MM version at high tiers. MM was higher risk for faster kills and required soldier runes for its Condi clear. The range, the extra stealth, the higher damage, and low prevalence of Condi classes allows for the one Condi clears of soldier runes to work again. This nerf kills that build and any others that potentially wanted to move away from WS and that's the problem. Even more of a reliance on WS and less build diversity

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Durzlla.6295" said:I have a feeling "Commands" are going to be a type of skill for an espec or they want to give rangers shouts... but either way it'd be nice if we could for the love of god get a Resounding Timbre nerf reversal in PvP now that they don't even have the potential to clear conditions.

I agree that there must be a reason for this we don't know yet. Otherwise they won't spend time on it.

Three things I can think of:

  • The next e-spec gets Shouts (as Durzlla said)
  • A different e-spec gets Commands and they thought this category was more fitting for Ranger Shouts
  • They are working on a way to nerf Sic'Em on SB which possibly affected external Shouts

Or a mixture of this.

The nerfed interaction with Runes of the Trooper is a pitty but I feel that Rangers got plenty other options for condition removal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Xaylin.1860 said:

@"Durzlla.6295" said:I have a feeling "Commands" are going to be a type of skill for an espec or they want to give rangers shouts... but either way it'd be nice if we could for the love of god get a Resounding Timbre nerf reversal in PvP now that they don't even have the potential to clear conditions.

I agree that there must be a reason for this we don't know yet. Otherwise they won't spend time on it.

Three things I can think of:
  • The next e-spec gets Shouts (as Durzlla said)
  • A different e-spec gets Commands and they thought this category was more fitting for Ranger Shouts
  • They are working on a way to nerf Sic'Em on SB which possibly affected external Shouts

Or a mixture of this.

The nerfed interaction with Runes of the Trooper is a pity but I feel that Rangers have plenty of other options for condition removal.

-It's not for an upcoming e-spec. Need an expansion for that.

-It's not to nerf sicem. They can do that without any games.

If they planned on changing a spec to fit in 'commands' instead of shouts, then why wouldn't they just do this all at once?

*Maybe New Runes? Or maybe they are changing Runes

@the bolded part, read Euranteins comments on this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@"Soilder.3607" said:I haven't touched this game since December but anyone serious about condition removal used Runes of the Revenant or Runes of Resistance. Runes of the Trooper have not been meta for any content for
years
.

Removing one condition at a time has not been viable since pre-HoT. All the whining in this thread is standard fare whenever Anet updates ranger, hence why they've learned to ignore this forum.

You're out of touch. Revenant and resistance were meta because of boon share on boonbeast. Boonbeast isn't meta anymore. Lb/gs is more meta now and there are the WS version and the MM version at high tiers. MM was higher risk for faster kills and required soldier runes for its Condi clear. The range, the extra stealth, the higher damage, and low prevalence of Condi classes allows for the one Condi clears of soldier runes to work again. This nerf kills that build and any others that potentially wanted to move away from WS and that's the problem. Even more of a reliance on WS and less build diversity

No Eurantien, I'm not out of touch. This entire subforum is out of touch.

Do you people mean to tell me that you don't remember, for the three years after Guild Wars 2 launched, how ranger was one of the buggiest, least desired, and most of all, NOT meta profession for all content in the game? You people seriously forget that?

And then what happened when Heart of Thorns launched? Druid became supermeta. It was needed in raids, desired in fractals, OP in PvP, the strongest roamer in WvW for a long time, though remaining unviable in zergs.

And then what happened when Path of Fire launched? Soulbeast was a buggy mess actually. But then it received much needed bugfixing and fine tuning. And then what did it become? Supermeta! OP in PvP, one of the strongest WvW roamers, though again unviable in zergs; Meta in most PvE content as both power and condition.

This class is NOT the red headed step child accusation that I see thrown around in nearly every balance patch discussion thread. We've received our fair shared of buffs and nerfs that every class has received. But this subforum remains the same, and with every balance patch comes overwhelming negativity, regardless of the rights or wrongs arenanet puts out.

I have no idea what the hell arenanet is trying to accomplish with this balance change (if it could be called that). But pretending that this minor change "pigeon holes" rangers and "kills viability"? No my friend, that's out of touch.

I will probably have something to say again in six months.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Soilder.3607 said:

@Soilder.3607 said:I haven't touched this game since December but anyone serious about condition removal used Runes of the Revenant or Runes of Resistance. Runes of the Trooper have not been meta for any content for
years
.

Removing one condition at a time has not been viable since pre-HoT. All the whining in this thread is standard fare whenever Anet updates ranger, hence why they've learned to ignore this forum.

You're out of touch. Revenant and resistance were meta because of boon share on boonbeast. Boonbeast isn't meta anymore. Lb/gs is more meta now and there are the WS version and the MM version at high tiers. MM was higher risk for faster kills and required soldier runes for its Condi clear. The range, the extra stealth, the higher damage, and low prevalence of Condi classes allows for the one Condi clears of soldier runes to work again. This nerf kills that build and any others that potentially wanted to move away from WS and that's the problem. Even more of a reliance on WS and less build diversity

No Eurantien, I'm not out of touch. This entire subforum is out of touch.

Do you people mean to tell me that you don't remember, for the three years after Guild Wars 2 launched, how ranger was one of the buggiest, least desired, and most of all, NOT meta profession for all content in the game? You people seriously forget that?

And then what happened when Heart of Thorns launched? Druid became supermeta. It was needed in raids, desired in fractals, OP in PvP, the strongest roamer in WvW for a long time, though remaining unviable in zergs.

And then what happened when Path of Fire launched? Soulbeast was a buggy mess actually. But then it received much needed bugfixing and fine tuning. And then what did it become? Supermeta! OP in PvP, one of the
strongest
WvW roamers, though again unviable in zergs; Meta in most PvE content as both power
and
condition.

This class is NOT the red headed step child accusation that I see thrown around in nearly every balance patch discussion thread. We've received our fair shared of buffs and nerfs that
every
class has received. But this subforum remains the same, and with every balance patch comes
overwhelming
negativity, regardless of the rights or wrongs arenanet puts out.

I have no idea what the hell arenanet is trying to accomplish with this balance change (if it could be called that). But pretending that this minor change "pigeon holes" rangers and "kills viability"? No my friend,
that's
out of touch.

I will probably have something to say again in six months.

I don't think ranger is being treated unfairly compared to other professions and would criticize anyone who said otherwise. That being said, the things you mentioned can still be true AND this change can still pigeon hole ranger even more, limit build diversity, and kill viability in some "non-meta" builds that do work.

It's not that ranger isn't viable, because it is viable. It's that only one kind of ranger is viable. In a game supposedly about build diversity and play the way you want (understandably that won't mean optimal for every playstyle/build - but should be effective with enough skill (within reason)) these changes are a stark contrast.

Imo, it's Anet that's out of touch. This change very likely wasn't done with the balance team but with the flavor team. Moreover, the balance team seems to lack the understanding/scope/vision to balance properly. The fact is. Ranger needs viable (underpowered could still mean viable) forms of Condi clear beyond WS.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...