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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@phs.6089 said:I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.

Fractals more successful than Raids? How do you figure that exactly?

because the vast majority of gw players play fractals, a tiny shrinking minority play raids because its aimed at niche game play (min-maxing)

The vast majority never set a foot in instanced content and never will.The difference of active fractal players vs raid players is actually not that large.Nowadays, yes, but that's only because constant increases to difficulty of fractals (in a way that wasn't fun at all) drove a lot of players out of it. The peak population of fractals however
was
much, much greater than peak population of raids.And that was still much lower than peak population of
dungeons
.Which is hardly surprising.

But still not a vast majority. The majority never cared about it. Stop trying to turn everything against raids even if it is just flat out wrong.
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@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Nowadays, yes, but that's only because constant increases to difficulty of fractals (in a way that wasn't fun at all) drove a lot of players out of it. The peak population of fractals however
was
much, much greater than peak population of raids.And that was still much lower than peak population of
dungeons
.Which is hardly surprising.

But still not a vast majority. The majority never cared about it. Stop trying to turn everything against raids even if it is just flat out wrong.That's true, but then i wasn't talking about vast majority. What i was responding to was the claim that the difference wasn't big. It was.

Edit: notice also, that your claim that a vast majority never set foot in any instanced content is probably false as well. The gw2eff statistics for people that have done at least 1 fractal is at above 80%.

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@Miellyn.6847 said:

@phs.6089 said:I'm not ignoring anything. I'm just here trying to understand what is the problem with having easy raids, while game has made fractals are those model is way more successful.

Fractals more successful than Raids? How do you figure that exactly?

because the vast majority of gw players play fractals, a tiny shrinking minority play raids because its aimed at niche game play (min-maxing)

The vast majority never set a foot in instanced content and never will.The difference of active fractal players vs raid players is actually not that large.

Keep telling yourself that if you wish, but reality is most players have played/play fractals at levels 1-100. i.e easy mode and up.

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@gonandro.4768 said:Hello everyone! Just passing by for my monthly visit to this thread.Take a look at the game: we had 1 raid release last year.Easy mode is not gonna happen.Get better at the game.Have a nice day!

What may happen is Raids might get discontinued after Wing 7 and any future elite spec might cheese the content and turn it into the next set of dungeons. So Raids fate might in theory become an easy mode anyhow, which really isn’t the outcome I wanted. ?

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@gonandro.4768 said:Hello everyone! Just passing by for my monthly visit to this thread.Take a look at the game: we had 1 raid release last year.Easy mode is not gonna happen.Get better at the game.Have a nice day!

What may happen is Raids might get discontinued after Wing 7 and any future elite spec might cheese the content and turn it into the next set of dungeons. So Raids fate might in theory become an easy mode anyhow, which really isn’t the outcome I wanted. ?

If that happens to raids it will automatically lead to the same result for fractals and to the death of any serious challenging content at all in GW2.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@gonandro.4768 said:Hello everyone! Just passing by for my monthly visit to this thread.Take a look at the game: we had 1 raid release last year.Easy mode is not gonna happen.Get better at the game.Have a nice day!

What may happen is Raids might get discontinued after Wing 7 and any future elite spec might cheese the content and turn it into the next set of dungeons. So Raids fate might in theory become an easy mode anyhow, which really isn’t the outcome I wanted. ?

If that happens to raids it will automatically lead to the same result for fractals and to the death of any serious challenging content at all in GW2.

I know. Hence my tearful emoji.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@gonandro.4768 said:Hello everyone! Just passing by for my monthly visit to this thread.Take a look at the game: we had 1 raid release last year.Easy mode is not gonna happen.Get better at the game.Have a nice day!

What may happen is Raids might get discontinued after Wing 7 and any future elite spec might cheese the content and turn it into the next set of dungeons. So Raids fate might in theory become an easy mode anyhow, which really isn’t the outcome I wanted. ?

If that happens to raids it will automatically lead to the same result for fractals and to the death of any serious challenging content at all in GW2.Probably. Notice however, that in general this kind of content isn't immensely popular here, and the changes to fractals that keep increasing difficulty over and over again did a lot to depopulate the content. I'd say that keeping fractals at current difficulty level simply isn't sustainable in the long run anyway.
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@Astralporing.1957 said:Probably. Notice however, that in general this kind of content isn't immensely popular here, and the changes to fractals that keep increasing difficulty over and over again did a lot to depopulate the content. I'd say that keeping fractals at current difficulty level simply isn't sustainable in the long run anyway.

I agree, the voices here and on reddit are very loud in that the recent changes to instabilities were a massive disappointment and therefore led to a noticeable decrease in population.

@Tsan.6431 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:If that happens to raids it will automatically lead to the same result for fractals and to the death of any serious challenging content at all in GW2.

Fractals ? That's why is more difficult to find a fractal T3 or low level T4 them a T4 HL ???

It's more difficult to find people for T3 due to them being harder to play with inexperienced players you find there at the moment. People who can head for T4 will do that obviously because it guarantees much more rewards and you meet (or in the past "met") players knowing what and how to do it.But I still don't see your point. You can't seriously have the opinion that easing raids down will lead to a remarkable influx of players for fractals (I hope you see the dependence & connection on fractal difficulty via balancing). The crowd aiming for challenging content won't come back if things get easier, that's a fact. The majority left because there is not enough content to satisfy their wishes. Another part due to the latest changes.The rest of the player base hasn't even played lower tier fractals (not to speak of regularly). they also won't join this part just because power creep. They are not interested in instanced content. There's one thing you can do: tune rewards even higher and your Silverwaste crowd will farm ez T4 fracs.

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Easier acces to raid via a learning curve should bring player to normal level raid : like fractal T1-2-3 lead to T4.

"The majority left because there is not enough content to satisfy their wishes." Something like a easy mod for raid ? (or template, lol)

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@"Tsan.6431" said:Easier acces to raid via a learning curve should bring player to normal level raid : like fractal T1-2-3 lead to T4.

"The majority left because there is not enough content to satisfy their wishes." Something like a easy mod for raid ? (or template, lol)

With the cited sentence from you I meant players that want an actual challenge and more of such content, like W7, 8 & 9 + additional cms for fracs. Anet's release cycle is too long to keep them in the game.

You are assuming that there is a huge/tremendous amount of players that want to have an easy mode for raids. That is by no means the case. There are some, yes, but most of them are not interested in establish longterm commitment. Not even for an easy mode. They would try out/play them once like an LS episode and that's it.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Tsan.6431" said:Easier acces to raid via a learning curve should bring player to normal level raid : like fractal T1-2-3 lead to T4.

"The majority left because there is not enough content to satisfy their wishes." Something like a easy mod for raid ? (or template, lol)

With the cited sentence from you I meant players that want an actual challenge and more of such content, like W7, 8 & 9 + additional cms for fracs. Anet's release cycle is too long to keep them in the game.

I think is because people are used to WoW way of doing their story. A little bit of story and then a raid with their releases. GW2 is not a raid centric game, it wasn’t part of the original design. If we were to compare it to WoW each release of LW would also contain a raid, which is actually key part of the plot, much the battle with Kralkatorrik, that instance for example would be a raid, while the collecting parts of the LW, collecting oil and salvaging the tanks would be one of the smaller quests.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Tsan.6431" said:Easier acces to raid via a learning curve should bring player to normal level raid : like fractal T1-2-3 lead to T4.

"The majority left because there is not enough content to satisfy their wishes." Something like a easy mod for raid ? (or template, lol)

With the cited sentence from you I meant players that want an actual challenge and more of such content, like W7, 8 & 9 + additional cms for fracs. Anet's release cycle is too long to keep them in the game.Yes. That was known even before Anet released first raid wing. A lot of us have been saying then that there's no way Anet can satisfy that group of players without completely changing the course and going full hardcore (and possibly not even then). Turns out, we were right.

You are assuming that there is a huge/tremendous amount of players that want to have an easy mode for raids. That is by no means the case.Of course not. But then, there's no tremendous amount of players that wanted raids in the first place. And if we compare those numbers, you might find that the group of players preferring raids to be easier might not be smaller than those that want them hard.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:Yes. That was known even before Anet released first raid wing. A lot of us have been saying then that there's no way Anet can satisfy that group of players without completely changing the course and going full hardcore (and possibly not even then). Turns out, we were right.

Nah, they could have done it without being a raid centric game. The layoffs are a proof to that. Instead of letting people work on projects with unknown outcome they should have focused on GW2 as a whole - in every sector, not only raids & fracs.We had announcement after announcement that they "could" ("6 wings per year") and "would" ("merge groups for better focus", "installing a 2nd team for instanced content") bring more stuff. It was all on the table and communicated (although still badly and like always without a roadmap). It couldn't be more obvious that players are leaving if you lie to them like this over months/years.

Of course not. But then, there's no tremendous amount of players that wanted raids in the first place. And if we compare those numbers, you might find that the group of players preferring raids to be easier might not be smaller than those that want them hard.

Raids were marked as "successful". They must have lied here as well if you are right or you are not. Choose one.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Yes. That was known even before Anet released first raid wing. A lot of us have been saying then that there's no way Anet can satisfy that group of players without completely changing the course and going full hardcore (and possibly not even then). Turns out, we were right.

Nah, they could have done it without being a raid centric game. The layoffs are a proof to that. Instead of letting people work on projects with unknown outcome they should have focused on GW2 as a whole - in every sector, not only raids & fracs.That was only a more recent trend. Moving resources en masse to side projects probably didn't happen before PoF (and wing 5) launched. And yet the raid release cadence was never good (the first 3 wings do not really count, as we don't really know how long they did take, because part of their work was done as part of expac).

We had announcement after announcement that they "could" ("6 wings per year") and "would" ("merge groups for better focus", "installing a 2nd team for instanced content") bring more stuff. It was all on the table and communicated (although still badly and like always without a roadmap). It couldn't be more obvious that players are leaving if you lie to them like this over months/years.

6 wings per year... They probably could. If (and only if) they went raid-heavy (they'd probably need like 4-5 raid teams for that, working in parallel). Most probably though they've realized almost instantly (even if they claimed success) that raider population simply didn't warrant so much resource investment.And they did merge groups (fractal and raid). It was stilll the same number of people working on the same number of projects.

Of course not. But then, there's no tremendous amount of players that wanted raids in the first place. And if we compare those numbers, you might find that the group of players preferring raids to be easier might not be smaller than those that want them hard.

Raids were marked as "successful". They must have lied here as well if you are right or you are not. Choose one."succesful" is such a relative word. I'm sure they were initially succesful
for a hardcore content in a mostly casual game
. That doesn't mean they were succesful enough to warrant more resources dedicated to them... or that this success lasted long (remember, that they claimed that success right after the content drought that affected all parts of the game
except raids
, during time where they were a New Thing, and during time where raids still had accelerated schedule due to first 3 wings being partially done beforehand)

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Unfortunately we don’t know what the future holds for Raids right now. I suspect we will get a Wing 7 to finish off the Legendary ring, but beyond that? It’s hard to say. Could they drop Raids and just focus on Fractals? Maybe? They definitely have Fractal spaces available.

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  • 2 months later...

Results so far:

  • We need both easy and hard modes - 575 - 52%
  • We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode - 89 - 8%
  • We need a hard mode, but not an easy mode - 87 - 7%
  • Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties - 264 - 24%
  • Raids have problems, but we need a better solution - 80 - 7%

From the data above:

  • 60% of the people want an easy mode.
  • 59% of the people want a hard mode.
  • 67% of the people want difficulty modes.
  • 31% of the people doesn't want difficulty modes.

@"Astralporing.1957" said:"succesful" is such a relative word. I'm sure they were initially succesful for a hardcore content in a mostly casual game. That doesn't mean they were succesful enough to warrant more resources dedicated to them... or that this success lasted long (remember, that they claimed that success right after the content drought that affected all parts of the game except raids, during time where they were a New Thing, and during time where raids still had accelerated schedule due to first 3 wings being partially done beforehand)

Exactly. You can't spend resources on a minority while the majority has nothing to do. Raids were bound to fail with no difficulty modes, as time is proving.

@Tyson.5160 said:Unfortunately we don’t know what the future holds for Raids right now. I suspect we will get a Wing 7 to finish off the Legendary ring, but beyond that? It’s hard to say. Could they drop Raids and just focus on Fractals? Maybe? They definitely have Fractal spaces available.

I wouldn't be surprised if wing 7 is the last raid.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@tim.4596 said:Is that post legit still running !!! This is insane.Why? It's not like anything changed since the topic started, so people that disliked the situation then aren't more likely to like it now. If they still play, of course.Hint: leaving problems unresolved for a time doesn't make them any less of a problem later.

Or maybe it's not a problem.Status Quo has been maintained since HoT, if the deafining silence on the matter isn't enough proof for you then i don't know what to tell you that will restore your faith in the belief that there is a problem.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:"succesful" is such a relative word. I'm sure they were initially succesful
for a hardcore content in a mostly casual game
. That doesn't mean they were succesful enough to warrant more resources dedicated to them... or that this success lasted long (remember, that they claimed that success right after the content drought that affected all parts of the game
except raids
, during time where they were a New Thing, and during time where raids still had accelerated schedule due to first 3 wings being partially done beforehand)

Exactly. You can't spend resources on a minority while the majority has nothing to do. Raids were bound to fail with no difficulty modes, as time is proving.

Your logic is flawed here has people have lots to do now. Or are you claiming that people leaving the game in hot because they didn't have enough to do would cause raids to fail in pof?

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@TexZero.7910 said:

@"tim.4596" said:Is that post legit still running !!! This is insane.Why? It's not like anything changed since the topic started, so people that disliked the situation then aren't more likely to like it now. If they still play, of course.Hint: leaving problems unresolved for a time doesn't make them any less of a problem later.

Or maybe it's not a problem.For you, probably not. For others...

Status Quo has been maintained since HoT, if the deafining silence on the matter isn't enough proof for you then i don't know what to tell you that will restore your faith in the belief that there is a problem.If less and less resources dedicated to raids is the status quo you want...And i don't need you to restore my "faith" in it being a problem. I am still as sure as before that it is, and do not base it on faith, but on observation.
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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"tim.4596" said:Is that post legit still running !!! This is insane.Why? It's not like anything changed since the topic started, so people that disliked the situation then aren't more likely to like it now. If they still play, of course.Hint: leaving problems unresolved for a time doesn't make them any less of a problem later.

Or maybe it's not a problem.For you, probably not. For others...

Status Quo has been maintained since HoT, if the deafining silence on the matter isn't enough proof for you then i don't know what to tell you that will restore your faith in the belief that there is a problem.If less and less resources dedicated to raids is the status quo you want...And i don't need you to restore my "faith" in it being a problem. I am still as sure as before that it is, and do not base it on faith, but on observation.

Have been consisten in its release since after the 3 raid wings that were finished during hot production I'd say, were do you get that its less and less?True raiders want em faster then what the pace is but thats not saying it slowed down.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"tim.4596" said:Is that post legit still running !!! This is insane.Why? It's not like anything changed since the topic started, so people that disliked the situation then aren't more likely to like it now. If they still play, of course.Hint: leaving problems unresolved for a time doesn't make them any less of a problem later.

Or maybe it's not a problem.For you, probably not. For others...

Status Quo has been maintained since HoT, if the deafining silence on the matter isn't enough proof for you then i don't know what to tell you that will restore your faith in the belief that there is a problem.If less and less resources dedicated to raids is the status quo you want...And i don't need you to restore my "faith" in it being a problem. I am still as sure as before that it is, and do not base it on faith, but on observation.

Or it's not a problem as seen by the company at large and the people who protest to loudly might just be a very fringe minority. That seems much more logical than it's "not a problem" for me.

So by your own admission they've spent less resources on a mode and you think somehow they're gonna find time to address this supposed problem ?Doesn't that itself indicate that they don't see a need to cater to this percieved slight ? Raids are still being made and by less than the initial team.... If they didn't make an easy mode before what makes you think they'll do it now with a smaller team whose focus is arguably more concise.

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@TexZero.7910 said:

So by your own admission they've spent less resources on a mode and you think somehow they're gonna find time to address this supposed problem ?No, i don't. The time for that is long past. Raids are no longer important enough to warrant adding a second mode. It's far more likely that at some point they will simply tweak the difficulty down. Or just stop dedicating any resources to them altogether.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

So by your own admission they've spent less resources on a mode and you think somehow they're gonna find time to address this supposed problem ?No, i don't. The time for that is long past. Raids are no longer important enough to warrant adding a second mode. It's far more likely that at some point they will simply tweak the difficulty down. Or just stop dedicating any resources to them altogether.

You keep doing you then.

It's not like there's precedent from ANet now from their previous title and this one stating that they aren't going to change their endgame content's difficulty no matter how much people complain or anything.

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