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Soulbeast Needs Some Genuine Nerf Bat Love in the Next Balance Update


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Reality Check; For nearly 4 years; Rangers were the underdog in the game and Thief and Mesmer continue to be Toxic-Top Dogs in the game. Than something happened; Rangers finally found a dev who stood by their side till this day.

You are hearing it correctly- Rangers have a dev who is backing them up from being an underdog profession to a Top Dog profession.

'Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely '

There is nothing wrong of being powerful. What is wrong when the power becomes Toxic. That is the problem with the balance- too much power= Toxicity

In conclusion; Rangers amongst others have joined Thief and Mesmer Toxicity.

Toxicity has become rooted in the game balance design because of Thief and Mesmer.

To solve the Toxic Power Crisis- Thief and Mesmer must be completely removed so healthy competitive balance can be addressed and exercised.

Until then-No amount of nerfs will fix the Toxic Power Hunger Crave until Thief and Mesmer are rooted out than later be fully redesigned with a fresh start of healthy competitive balance.

(The other alternative to nerfing the Toxic Power Hunger Crave is to nerf all professions to the ground alongside with Thief and Mesmer being hit the most with severe nerfs as Punishments for 7 years of Toxicity ) than rework Thief and Mesmer from the ground up as examples to healthy competition

--Thief and Mesmer are the Meta; and must be Leading role models to a healthy fun competitive learning gaming experience and environment--bsOncoE.jpg

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@"Burnfall.9573" said:Reality Check; For nearly 4 years; Rangers were the underdog in the game and Thief and Mesmer continue to be Toxic-Top Dogs in the game. Than something happened; Rangers finally found a dev who stood by their side till this day.

You are hearing it correctly- Rangers have a dev who is backing them up from being an underdog profession to a Top Dog profession.

'Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely '

There is nothing wrong of being powerful. What is wrong when the power becomes Toxic. That is the problem with the balance- too much power= Toxicity

In conclusion; Rangers amongst others have joined Thief and Mesmer Toxicity.

Toxicity has become rooted in the game balance design because of Thief and Mesmer.

To solve the Toxic Power Crisis- Thief and Mesmer must be completely removed so healthy competitive balance can be addressed and exercised.

Until then-No amount of nerfs will fix the Toxic Power Hunger Crave until Thief and Mesmer are rooted out than later be fully redesigned with a fresh start of healthy competitive balance.

(The other alternative to nerfing the Toxic Power Hunger Crave is to nerf all professions to the ground alongside with Thief and Mesmer being hit the most with severe nerfs) than rework Thief and Mesmer from the ground up

bsOncoE.jpg

What thief is toxic?

Please be specific and concise, and please no videos from the long past. Let's keep it current and real.

If we are discussing skill disparity, that problem can't be solved by the devs (though they have tried with power creep).

What specific element about thief makes you hate them?

I feel convinced you main a necro, and it's not like good necros have a problem with most thieves in today's game.

I feel that the insta-cast face roll of scourge is broken, unfair, and unfun. Doubly so when paired with any type of support, though skilled players can live without it.

Do you see me visiting every single thread bringing some issues to the attention of devs saying "oh btw, necro needs to be deleted"?

Imagine if death judgement was aoe and hit 5 targets with the current damage....

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@shadowpass.4236 said:@"Twilight Tempest.7584"

I read everything, but I'm not going to address every point individually for the sake of brevity.

As I've mentioned in the past, I dislike these gimmick builds. Not only do they require a very small amount of skill to play, but they aren't fun to use and/or fight against. In other words, if Sic Em was removed entirely, I wouldn't bat an eye.

EDIT: The more I think about it, the more I know I would feel bad farming people the way the "gimmick" Soulbeast did. It just wouldn't be fun knowing I'm cheesing a cheap combo to exploit peoples' ignorance of how it works. It really doesn't matter if the build doesn't cut it at the top (an argument often presented to say SLB is fine). If it's wreaking havoc on a huge chunk of the player base--and by nature, 1-shot builds do--I say it's a problem. Again, the same situation existed and the same arguments were made concerning condi-mirage's condi-bombs while having excellent defenses, and we all know how that played out. If there is any shred of balancing consistency, precedent, and fairness, the same should happen here.

It means a lot that you'd willingly give up Sic 'Em. There are people here who actually want it buffed, let alone nerfed. Also someone above saying OWP needs a buff. All I want is for SLB damage to be toned down as part of a universal reverse power-creeping. However that is best accomplished, I trust to the profession experts.

In response to your build's lack of the defensives, I'd recommend running this build. Even though it's been nerfed, the damage potential on condi mirage is still insane and you have plenty of ways to survive different builds/matchups. :)

Not to get too off topic, but really quickly...

! Lately I'm actually running a build pretty similar to your suggestion. Only differences are:! Axe instead of Sword - just because I'm more familiar with axe and the community says sword is bad, but I'm open to trying it! Mirrored Axes instead of Desert Distortion since running axe! Evasive Mirror (despite being overnerfed with a 10 sec ICD in the last update) instead of Blinding Dissipation (also bizarrely nerfed in the last update to only apply to Cry of Frustration). [The lack of decent options in Dueling Adept following recent nerfs is a discussion unto itself within the Mes community.]! Wizard Amulet instead of Deadshot - curious what's better here! * Rune of Adventure (the old meta standby) instead of Rune of Resistance - I'm not sure giving up +300 condition damage and (nerfed) endurance on heal in favor of Toughness is going to help my insane damage potential, but I know you suggested RoR to make up for the loss of cleanse from Arcane Thievery.

Thanks again. I appreciate that you always try to be helpful. :)

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@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"Burnfall.9573" said:Reality Check; For nearly 4 years; Rangers were the underdog in the game and Thief and Mesmer continue to be Toxic-Top Dogs in the game. Than something happened; Rangers finally found a dev who stood by their side till this day.

You are hearing it correctly- Rangers have a dev who is backing them up from being an underdog profession to a Top Dog profession.

'
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely
'

There is nothing wrong of being powerful. What is wrong when the power becomes Toxic. That is the problem with the balance- too much power= Toxicity

In conclusion; Rangers amongst others have joined Thief and Mesmer Toxicity.

Toxicity has become rooted in the game balance design because of Thief and Mesmer.

To solve the Toxic Power Crisis- Thief and Mesmer must be completely removed so healthy competitive balance can be addressed and exercised.

Until then-
No amount of nerfs will fix the Toxic Power Hunger Crave until Thief and Mesmer are rooted out
than later be fully redesigned with a fresh start of healthy competitive balance.

(The other alternative to nerfing the Toxic Power Hunger Crave is to nerf all professions to the ground alongside with Thief and Mesmer being hit the most with severe nerfs) than rework Thief and Mesmer from the ground up

bsOncoE.jpg

What thief is toxic?

Please be specific and concise, and please no videos from the long past. Let's keep it current and real.

If we are discussing skill disparity, that problem can't be solved by the devs (though they have tried with power creep).

What specific element about thief makes you hate them?

I feel convinced you main a necro, and it's not like good necros have a problem with most thieves in today's game.

I feel that the insta-cast face roll of scourge is broken, unfair, and unfun. Doubly so when paired with any type of support, though skilled players can live without it.

Do you see me visiting every single thread bringing some issues to the attention of devs saying "oh btw, necro needs to be deleted"?

Imagine if death judgement was aoe and hit 5 targets with the current damage....

Just...dont...Trust me......

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Before anyone tries to use it as an excuse to make eachother look like fools, can we all agree that Rapid Fire isn't the issue, but merely a part of the issue?

Sic 'Em sniper isn't just a gimmicky 1-shot build like people preach, it's actually an equal-parts sustainy, run of the mill side-noder. Meta Battle even recommends they play that way, and they can; because they have the absolute highest and easy access ways to stack damage multipliers(That's not additive) on top of all their mobility, healing, stability, stealth, and weapon skills that give blocks and evades tied to damage AND CC AND movement, and the cherry on top is despite having the highest on-demand multipliers; their attacks are unblockable every 10 seconds minimum, for 4 seconds.

Since blocks also seem to count as reflects and destroy projectiles in a lot of cases, this means your only option the majority of the time is to just dodge, since most builds and some classes don't incorporate invulns, fewer even; invulns that last 4 seconds. That's where people get mad at Rapid Fire, I think. Not just that though, Point-Blank, Maul, and pretty much all the Smokescale skills, but still; that's not the issue. The Issue is everything else I mentioned, especially the part about the highest on-demand multipliers all coming at you all unblockable-like.

Want proof? Here's all the multipliers for some of the most commonly played side-noders:

Holo - 25% From Laser's edge + Excessive Energy.Herald - 62% but that's with max stacks of EVERYTHING, and after using Phase Travel.Power Shatter Mirage - 12.5% only, and that's with max stacks of vuln from Fragility.Spellbreaker - 30% - Peak Perforamnce, Magebane, Warriors Sprint, and Burst Mastery.

And Then Soulbeast! - 42% And that's just from traits alone, not including Sic 'Em. Furious Strength, Twice as Viscous, Oppressive Superiority, Loud whistle, and 2h Training(Kind of weird too that this trait exists as it does when everything else of the sort was changed to give a stat boost rather than a straight damage multiplier)That becomes 82% with Sic 'Em.

Again, these are damage multipliers, and like I say; they're far easier for Soulbeast to benefit from than say a Herald, Mesmer, or Spellbreaker because a lot of thiers rely on stacking effects and things never go so perfectly as to have the max damage possible at once. For Holo it's a little easier, but they do objectively less damage than Soulbeast; whose modifiers are also tied to Boons, CC, Health, or just flat inexcusable damage increases.

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@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:Sic 'Em sniper isn't just a gimmicky 1-shot build like people preach, it's actually an equal-parts sustainy, run of the mill side-noder. Meta Battle even recommends they play that way, and they can; because they have the absolute highest and easy access ways to stack damage multipliers(That's not additive) on top of all their mobility, healing, stability, stealth, and weapon skills that give blocks and evades tied to damage AND CC AND movement, and the cherry on top is despite having the highest on-demand multipliers; their attacks are unblockable every 10 seconds minimum, for 4 seconds.

I think this sums it up well. Perfect snapshot of POF power-creep (it's not the only one).

Broken record time: Soulbeast in general simply does way too much damage relative to its survivability. This isn't an opinion, but a fact. Compared to other duelists, with the exception of Holo, and to some extent Spellbreaker, both of which are also power-crept POF specs, it just does too much. Compared to other 1-shot builds like Deadeye and Chrono, it has all the reward for none of the risk. Hits like a truck, survivable af.

Want proof? Here's all the multipliers for some of the most commonly played side-noders:

Holo - 25% From Laser's edge + Excessive Energy.Herald - 62% but that's with max stacks of EVERYTHING, and after using Phase Travel.Power Shatter Mirage - 12.5% only, and that's with max stacks of vuln from Fragility.Spellbreaker - 30% - Peak Perforamnce, Magebane, Warriors Sprint, and Burst Mastery.

And Then Soulbeast! - 42% And that's just from traits alone, not including Sic 'Em. Furious Strength, Twice as Viscous, Oppressive Superiority, Loud whistle, and 2h Training(Kind of weird too that this trait exists as it does when everything else of the sort was changed to give a stat boost rather than a straight damage multiplier)That becomes 82% with Sic 'Em.

Again, these are damage multipliers, and like I say; they're far easier for Soulbeast to benefit from than say a Herald, Mesmer, or Spellbreaker because a lot of thiers rely on stacking effects and things never go so perfectly as to have the max damage possible at once. For Holo it's a little easier, but they do objectively less damage than Soulbeast; whose modifiers are also tied to Boons, CC, Health, or just flat inexcusable damage increases.

I'm sure someone will check your numbers or at least say whether all those multipliers can be had in one build, but assuming this is even remotely accurate (I suspect it is), it directly supports what I've asked for with respect to toning down SLB: All I want is for SLB damage to be toned down as part of a universal reverse power-creeping. However that is best accomplished, I trust to the profession experts.

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@Burnfall.9573 said:(The other alternative to nerfing the Toxic Power Hunger Crave is to nerf all professions to the ground alongside with Thief and Mesmer being hit the most with severe nerfs as Punishments for 7 years of Toxicity ) than rework Thief and Mesmer from the ground up as examples to healthy competition

Does thief get extra punishment for hard countering mesmer with its toxicity? :p

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@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:Before anyone tries to use it as an excuse to make eachother look like fools, can we all agree that Rapid Fire isn't the issue, but merely a part of the issue?

Sic 'Em sniper isn't just a gimmicky 1-shot build like people preach, it's actually an equal-parts sustainy, run of the mill side-noder. Meta Battle even recommends they play that way, and they can; because they have the absolute highest and easy access ways to stack damage multipliers(That's not additive) on top of all their mobility, healing, stability, stealth, and weapon skills that give blocks and evades tied to damage AND CC AND movement, and the cherry on top is despite having the highest on-demand multipliers; their attacks are unblockable every 10 seconds minimum, for 4 seconds.

Since blocks also seem to count as reflects and destroy projectiles in a lot of cases, this means your only option the majority of the time is to just dodge, since most builds and some classes don't incorporate invulns, fewer even; invulns that last 4 seconds. That's where people get mad at Rapid Fire, I think. Not just that though, Point-Blank, Maul, and pretty much all the Smokescale skills, but still; that's not the issue. The Issue is everything else I mentioned, especially the part about the highest on-demand multipliers all coming at you all unblockable-like.

Want proof? Here's all the multipliers for some of the most commonly played side-noders:

Holo - 25% From Laser's edge + Excessive Energy.Herald - 62% but that's with max stacks of EVERYTHING, and after using Phase Travel.Power Shatter Mirage - 12.5% only, and that's with max stacks of vuln from Fragility.Spellbreaker - 30% - Peak Perforamnce, Magebane, Warriors Sprint, and Burst Mastery.

And Then Soulbeast! - 42% And that's just from traits alone, not including Sic 'Em. Furious Strength, Twice as Viscous, Oppressive Superiority, Loud whistle, and 2h Training(Kind of weird too that this trait exists as it does when everything else of the sort was changed to give a stat boost rather than a straight damage multiplier)That becomes 82% with Sic 'Em.

Again, these are damage multipliers, and like I say; they're far easier for Soulbeast to benefit from than say a Herald, Mesmer, or Spellbreaker because a lot of thiers rely on stacking effects and things never go so perfectly as to have the max damage possible at once. For Holo it's a little easier, but they do objectively less damage than Soulbeast; whose modifiers are also tied to Boons, CC, Health, or just flat inexcusable damage increases.

You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.

  1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.

  2. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:(The other alternative to nerfing the Toxic Power Hunger Crave is to nerf all professions to the ground alongside with Thief and Mesmer being hit the most
with severe nerfs as Punishments for 7 years of Toxicity
) than rework Thief and Mesmer from the ground up as examples to healthy competition

Does thief get extra punishment for hard countering mesmer with its toxicity? :p

Yes

Mesmers are design to be Thief scapegoat of Toxicity

(in fact, Mesmers received more nerfs than Thief in Guild Wars 2 since releas)

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@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Burnfall.9573 said:(The other alternative to nerfing the Toxic Power Hunger Crave is to nerf all professions to the ground alongside with Thief and Mesmer being hit the most
with severe nerfs as Punishments for 7 years of Toxicity
) than rework Thief and Mesmer from the ground up as examples to healthy competition

Does thief get extra punishment for hard countering mesmer with its toxicity? :p

Yes

Mesmers are design to be Thief scapegoat of Toxicity

(in fact, Mesmers received more nerfs than Thief in Guild Wars 2 since releas)

Lol wut?Man to live in ur world.

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The soulbeast sicem lb build has been around for a very long time, kind of interesting that people suddenly start crying for nerf once a build becomes more popular. What is next, FA weaver burst being too high? If people honestly dislike 1 shot burst so much, they should be complaining about the class design, not one particular skill/combo.

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@"bigo.9037" said:You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.

  1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.

  2. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

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@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:The soulbeast sicem lb build has been around for a very long time, kind of interesting that people suddenly start crying for nerf once a build becomes more popular. What is next, FA weaver burst being too high? If people honestly dislike 1 shot burst so much, they should be complaining about the class design, not one particular skill/combo.

People dislike to die ...reason they spend all day on the forum asking to nerf what kills them

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@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@"bigo.9037" said:You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
  1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.
  2. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills. The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet. (Not to mention that a lot of pets have terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg... Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

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@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:The soulbeast sicem lb build has been around for a very long time, kind of interesting that people suddenly start crying for nerf once a build becomes more popular. What is next, FA weaver burst being too high?

You're right. The build has been around for a while, and it, along with other SLB builds have been broken all this time. What's changed? The fact that other formerly broken PoF specs like the notorious condi-mirage, all mesmer profession builds in fact, all thieves (most recently Daredevil), Scourge, and even briefly boosted HoT specs like Berserker and Druid have all been toned down in the time SLB has gotten a free ride, going balance update after balance update virtually untouched. That's what's changed.

In other words, while several things may have been overperforming right after PoF launched, the more things that have gotten toned down since then, the more the things that have not been hit (SLB, Holo, SB) stand out. Not that perplexing a concept I think.

If people honestly dislike 1 shot burst so much, they should be complaining about the class design, not one particular skill/combo.

What if the skill/combo is what's behind the 1-shot burst? Isn't it better to focus on the problem mechanic, or would you prefer nerfs to the whole class? Because that has happened. To the entire Mesmer profession. I'm not saying that should happen to other professions too, but if you want it, there is precedent for it. Anyhow, if you don't think 1-shot bursts deserve attention then I think Deadeyes, 1-Shot Chronos, and even former backstab thieves would like to have a word with you.

Please SLB mains, you'll really do yourself a solid by not pretending your class isn't currently overtuned and recognizing that it deserves at least some of the toning down other specs have already gotten. Or you can keep deluding yourselves that people are just crying because they die to your spec and not because something about it is broken. Your choice.

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@bigo.9037 said:

@bigo.9037 said:You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
  1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.
  2. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills.
The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet.
(Not to mention that a lot of pets have
terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg...
Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

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@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:You're right. The build has been around for a while, and it, along with other SLB builds have been broken all this time. What's changed? The fact that other formerly broken PoF specs like the notorious condi-mirage, all mesmer profession builds in fact, all thieves (most recently Daredevil), Scourge, and even briefly boosted HoT specs like Berserker and Druid have all been toned down in the time SLB has gotten a free ride, going balance update after balance update virtually untouched. That's what's changed.

In other words, while several things may have been overperforming right after PoF launched, the more things that have gotten toned down since then, the more the things that have not been hit (SLB, Holo, SB) stand out. Not that perplexing a concept I think.

What if the skill/combo is what's behind the 1-shot burst? Isn't it better to focus on the problem mechanic, or would you prefer nerfs to the whole class? Because that has happened. To the entire Mesmer profession. I'm not saying that should happen to other professions too, but if you want it, there is precedent for it. Anyhow, if you don't think 1-shot bursts deserve attention then I think Deadeyes, 1-Shot Chronos, and even former backstab thieves would like to have a word with you.

I never claimed that sicem wasnt broken or in need of a nerf. I was merely stating that people often jump on the nerf bandwagon complaining about a specific build when the problem with balance and overpowered specs is rarely just due to specific skill numbers. The few situations where this was the case would be berserker arc divider damage, or scrapper bulwark gyro barrier.

For soulbeast, the way the class is designed allows for stacking of multiple different damage modifiers to achieve ridiculous results. Tweaking the numbers on these modifiers is just a lazy solution, the class shouldnt have access to so many in the first place. Additionally there is the unblockable attacks issue which i think deserves a whole different discussion of its own.

For condi mirage, the reason why they are overpowered has nothing to do with their damage, its the design of the class. They have access to stealth, target breaks, teleports, clones, evades while stunned, and torment/confusion pressure among other things. Without even considering damage numbers you can see that this kind of toolkit is overpowered. People still complained even after every nerf because the fundamental issue of why mirage is op was never addressed.

For deadeye, it should be obvious that any class with perma stealth, very good mobility, and extremely high burst damage would be overpowered. Even though deadeye isnt a popular class right now, it is still designed to be overpowered in many situations.

I would think that most people would agree that playing against 1 shot builds is not very fun, since they offer little to no counter-play outside of "dodge the burst". All this being said, I do agree that soulbeast burst needs a nerf, but just tweaking damage numbers usually isnt the best solution.

Please SLB mains, you'll really do yourself a solid by not pretending your class isn't currently overtuned and recognizing that it deserves at least some of the toning down other specs have already gotten. Or you can keep deluding yourselves that people are just crying because they die to your spec and not because something about it is broken. Your choice.

Not sure if this was directed at me, but ranger is my least played class in pvp and wvw.

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@bigo.9037 said:You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
  1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.
  2. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills.
The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet.
(Not to mention that a lot of pets have
terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg...
Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on.

Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal".

Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate.

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@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:You're right. The build has been around for a while, and it, along with other SLB builds have been broken all this time. What's changed? The fact that other formerly broken PoF specs like the notorious condi-mirage, all mesmer profession builds in fact, all thieves (most recently Daredevil), Scourge, and even briefly boosted HoT specs like Berserker and Druid have all been toned down in the time SLB has gotten a free ride, going balance update after balance update virtually untouched.
That's what's changed.

In other words, while several things may have been overperforming right after PoF launched, the more things that have gotten toned down since then, the more the things that have not been hit (SLB, Holo, SB) stand out. Not that perplexing a concept I think.

What if the skill/combo is what's behind the 1-shot burst? Isn't it better to focus on the problem mechanic, or would you prefer nerfs to the whole class? Because that has happened. To the entire Mesmer profession. I'm not saying that should happen to other professions too, but if you want it, there is precedent for it. Anyhow, if you don't think 1-shot bursts deserve attention then I think Deadeyes, 1-Shot Chronos, and even former backstab thieves would like to have a word with you.

I never claimed that sicem wasnt broken or in need of a nerf. I was merely stating that people often jump on the nerf bandwagon complaining about a specific build when the problem with balance and overpowered specs is rarely just due to specific skill numbers. The few situations where this was the case would be berserker arc divider damage, or scrapper bulwark gyro barrier.

Ok then. Because based on your opening statement below, it seemed like you were generally delegitimizing recent calls for SLB nerfs as sudden and conveniently timed, and suggesting SLB bursts are fine (by comparing to FA Weaver).

! > @Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:! > The soulbeast sicem lb build has been around for a very long time, kind of interesting that people suddenly start crying for nerf once a build becomes more popular. What is next, FA weaver burst being too high?

For soulbeast, the way the class is designed allows for stacking of multiple different damage modifiers to achieve ridiculous results. Tweaking the numbers on these modifiers is just a lazy solution, the class shouldnt have access to so many in the first place. Additionally there is the unblockable attacks issue which i think deserves a whole different discussion of its own.

Agree. But unfortunately Anet apparently has a less-than-stellar track record of reworking skills/traits (Phantasm rework anyone?). Lazy numbers tweaks, like what they largely (over-)did to the rest of Mesmer and its elites, may be all we can hope for to at least bring overtuned things back down to earth.

As has been said repeatedly, the problem with SLB is out-of-control damage multipliers (of which Sic 'Em is one), plus too much unblockable (Unstoppable Union) resulting in astronomical damage potential on top of an already very sustainy spec.

I also agree with pretty much everything else you said.

Please SLB mains, you'll really do yourself a solid by not pretending your class isn't currently overtuned and recognizing that it deserves at least some of the toning down other specs have already gotten. Or you can keep deluding yourselves that people are just crying because they die to your spec and not because something about it is broken. Your choice.

Not sure if this was directed at me, but ranger is my least played class in pvp and wvw.

If you're not a delusional SLB main or apologist for them, then no. :)

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@bigo.9037 said:

@bigo.9037 said:You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
  1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.
  2. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills.
The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet.
(Not to mention that a lot of pets have
terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg...
Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on.

Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal".

Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate.

Sounds like a perk without a trade-off. Remember what Anet recently said about trade-offs? :wink:

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@bigo.9037 said:You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
  1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.
  2. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills.
The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet.
(Not to mention that a lot of pets have
terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg...
Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on.

Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal".

Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate.

Sounds like a perk without a trade-off. Remember what Anet recently said about trade-offs? :wink:

It WOULD be without a trade-off if it wasn't for the fact that the pets are terrible at landing any dmg at all with the only exception being smokescales evade thingy. Otherwise pets are basically only good for their f2 and nothing else.

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@bigo.9037 said:

@bigo.9037 said:You're wrong about 2 things ranger related.
  1. even if you wanted to spam unblockable, it's not viable. You merge, got 4 seconds. You wanna use some of your beast abilities before you unmerge again so you gotta wait a bit. Then AFTER you unmerge (when your weapon dmg is back to normal) you wait 10 seconds before you can do it again. Realistically, if you want to spam unblockable reasonably it's probably more like 4s/15-20s.
  2. What are you talking about with blocks? You mean Unstoppable Union? Yea you usually have to dodge it. But in a real fight you can't always wait that long without taking dmg just to use unblockable RF.

Like I said, 10 seconds "minimum." There's no internal cooldown for Unstoppable union so it's entirely possible to use it every ten seconds. While it may not be practical to do that, it is entirely possible, and still way too short for 4 seconds of unblockables tied to traits and not utilities.

I've played Sic 'Em sniper to test and it's not only possible, but rather easy to wait out beastmode's CD once, twice, or as many times as you need through movement skills, stealth, and GS weapon abilities. Even then; you get a further flat stat boost in Beatmode if you decide to stay merged, and like you just said it isn't practical to spam unstoppable union. You're completely right, it isn't practical, because most every class isn't capable of spamming blocks and the extra power and fero in beast mode makes that 82% damage multiplier even more rewarding; to which, you don't even need unstoppable union to benefit from. It's like giving someone a yacht when they ask for ice cream.

Ehh I can't really agree with the last point. Slb gets the dmg mods because the pet is gone while merged, which before pof was taken into account when balancing ranger weapon skills.
The stat bonus from slb is to make up for the loss of the pet.
(Not to mention that a lot of pets have
terrible AI that can hardly land any dmg...
Except for smokescale and birds, but they are squishy.)

What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

Lol. Yea, give me the stats any day. Why do you think ppl were excited about slb? Because they wouldn't have to deal with the bad AI anymore that you just can't rely on.

Unmerged, pets are there. Can be unreliable at times, but they can deal some dmg. Your stats are "normal".

Merge, no more unreliable pet dmg, but you get extra stats to compensate.

Frankly I hate soul beast and stand by the "Ranger has a pet" Mantra, which is what the class was designed around and should of stayed designed around. You don't like it thief and engie are right there for you and no one should have to make a class or spec to cater to the screaming masses. (Suggestions are fine sure, but if ranger didn't have a pet Id never of made one.) The one thing im worried about is that ranger, core ranger is going to suffer for the over-preforming and when the nerf-bat comes down it won't be on soul-beast but rather the ranger as a whole and as a class. Which will make it either unplayably weak; Or just unfun to run around with since it won't be able to stand up properly on its own which with soul-beast here is kind of already the case. (Soulbeast feels like a straight upgrade to core, which is not how it should feel at all.)

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