"SPOILERS" Elder Dragons ?

[MithranArkanere.8957]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:-snip-

As confirmed by devs. The important line:

As such, Mordremoth isn't one single entity, unless you are describing the entire jungle.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/496259/#Comment_496259

TL;DR, the vines are as much of Mordremoth's body as Trahearne is by the end. They're not part of the Mouth of Mordremoth, which was the sole body Mordremoth had at while in hibernation.

Mordremoth is akin to Ultron in the Avengers 2 movie. He has one mind and multiple bodies. But the Mouth of Mordremoth is the core, root, body, similar to the main, iconic-faced, body we see Ultron use against the Avengers in the movie. The vines are not (all - debatable) part of Mordremoth, but his mind inhabits them. To say that that Mordremoth's body expands the whole of Central Tyria because the vines do, is the same as saying Zhaitan's body is the entire risen horde, or Kralkatorrik's body is the entire Dragonbrand. The vines are Mordremoth's corruption in the end, and he's capable of putting his mind into his corruption via his Mind domain.

Mordremoth's core, original/oldest, and primary body is just that "tiny snake-like part". The vines are just "spares" he created.

Not at all.

Ultron is a temporary composite with each part remaining as individuals in collaboration to act as one.

Mordremoth's mind isn't even like the Borg. The borg are collective in which each part is expendable, but all work as a single entity. Even in bee colonies you can take out the queen and they'll likely pick a new queen and go on.

If anything compares to Mordremoth's control over his minions, that's Unity from Rick and Morty. All wills suppressed and under total control of a single entity that grows stronger with every creature controlled.

And as the dragon with domain of 'plant' or 'growth' magic, of course everything he grows can be considered spare, when he can just grow more.

Saying that his vines were not really part of him would be like saying someone's hair and nails are not part of that person. Until you cut them, they are. They can be cut, they can be removed. But they are still very much part of that person until you do so.

And as the dragon with domain of 'mind', even his main body was expendable. He moved to Trehearned when the fight against the Mouth and his mind combined confused him into impaling his own head on a tree.

That's why the only way to defeat him was in his mind. If we destroyed the Mouth alone, he'd just grow a new one or move to another one of his minions with enough mental capacity to hold his mind.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:This is incorrect. We have the order of the Elder Dragons awakening. It is:

Primordus, DSD, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Mordremoth.

I really believe that Mord awaken before Zhaitan only because the state of the Maguuma wouldn't look like that if he had awaken last. In Mord's awaken state, he's creating minions -- the Sylvaris.

Mord awoke at the end of S1. We even get to see it via cutscene and hear its roar on awakening across the land. It was literally the point of S1.

I’m not sure what you mean about the state of maguima. It was a normal jungle until he awoke and during S2 he was beginning his corruption. By the time HoT rolled around, he was able to turn most of the nearby Sylvari who weren’t strong enough to resist as he tore the pact down to wreck the place. All the vines, monsters etc were built up through S2.

Zhaitan appeared decades before (see Sea of Sorrows)

The Maguuma Jungle didn't look like that in GW1. It has grown at least three times its GW1 size. Mord is awake but inactive, probably feasting on a ley line, only when Scarlett jolt him that he became active.

I... disagree.

This is the GW1 map.

And

here's the GW2 map

. It's a bit hard to tell through all of the visual clutter on the GW2 map, but the areas that are actually green are pretty much the same. The borders shifted around, but if anything, the jungle's actually a bit smaller in GW2 (which is what was originally presented- we were told much of the Maguuma had dried up- but they backtracked on that angle for HoT.)

It's true that the areas our characters are allowed to tromp around in are much larger, but that's not unusual for GW1. It was normal for there to be (sometimes extensive) areas of a region we never saw, with the working assumption that it was just more of the same.

You can't tell from an aerial view. That would be like trying to distinguish a 2-story building from a 10-story building using aerial shots. The difference in the Maguuma is just like that -- it's from a 2-story building to a 10-story building. It didn't expanded wide, it expanded tall, which is the whole theme of the HoT expansion.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I would disagree for a few reasons.

Firstly, GW1 always had high canyons and canopies in the Maguuma. But engine limitations would put a, well, limit on how dense and high the vegetation can truly go.

Secondly, the only extreme verticality we have in GW2 Maguuma zones are caused by 1: tunnels (unexplored in GW1), 2: Mordremoth tearing the ground apart and shooting some up obviously new vines in VB; and 3: the Bloodstone exploding causing floating chunks of islands.

Comparing the density of the forest between Bloodstone Fen in both games and the difference isn't that great; compare Auric Basin to The Wilds and the difference isn't that great. Yes, GW2 has more vegetation, but it also has a greater game engine capable of better art. Even comparing Prophecies Maguuma to EotN Tarnished Coast you can see quite a difference in vegetation.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

Actually, now that I understand what Sir Vincent is saying, I'd argue that the difference is extreme... simply because the Maguuma Jungle in GW1 didn't have, y'know, trees.There were massive roots all around, of course, the stonewood trees in the dry portions, bamboo thickets and smaller plants in abundance, but not a single tree in the 'jungle' portions of the Jungle.

The innate absurdity of that, coupled with the way it clashes with what they wrote even at the time, makes me believe that the Maguuma we see in the GW1 engine isn't particularly close to the intended 'lore' version, but I will grant that it's open to interpretation. If you think it's less weird for all those massive trunks to have sprung up in just 250 years, that's your call to make.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

No trees?

Then what are these?

There were bamboo-like trees, and a bunch of oaks. Not to mention our favorite moving trees known now as treants.

The Tarnished Coast areas in Eye of the North also had plenty of trees - more than the Maguuma Jungle. So I'd label is as GW1 engine limitations more than anything. Same as all the constant canyons throughout every single map - made for fun gameplay, but hella unrealistic geography.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

I mentioned the bamboo, but no oaks- plenty of what looks like massive tree roots, but no trunks, no branches, no leaves, except small shoots that look like they may be parasitic plants. A couple other little things things I forgot in my first post- green-stalked plants that grow as tall as trees but seem to be shaped into lanterns; a couple massive, hollowed-out trunks that'd been carved into stages; what I can only describe as wooden formations that had to green at all except the house-structures they supported. Nothing that I could call a living tree, though.

It is bizarre, it doesn't seem like it's possibly what they actually intended it to be- but I'm not sure I can chalk it up to engine limits, either. Besides the Tarnished Coast, we had a pretty convincing forest in pre-Searing Regent Valley, and that was Prophecies. There was also Echovald in Factions, and while the fact that the canopy wasn't anchored to the trunks was problematic, it's still at least a rough delivery on a massive wood thick enough to blot out the sun. Maybe they didn't have the experience to make it work satisfactorily on that scale in the first release, or maybe it was a choice in artistic direction that didn't get communicated to the short story writers, but whatever the case, I think we have enough examples from other parts of the game to say it's not a baked-in limitation of the engine.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Pre-Searing was also one of the latest areas made, so it would also be among the "best" in terms of design and art. On the flip side, iirc, Maguuma and Kryta were among the earliest places made, as they're even featured in the pre-beta stuff.

If not a limitation of early engine, I'd say lack of experience.

[Mickey Frogeater.1470]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Pre-Searing was also one of the latest areas made, so it would also be among the "best" in terms of design and art. On the flip side, iirc, Maguuma and Kryta were among the earliest places made, as they're even featured in the pre-beta stuff.

If not a limitation of early engine, I'd say lack of experience.

And yet Maguuma Jungle is one of my favorite places in Prophecies alongside the Crystal Desert!

[mercury ranique.2170]

I think physical size has not much to do with this. We know that some dragons and minions fuction as a single body. With primordus this is described as a hyve mind. We see something simular with all dragons and minions. This goes as far that the body and the elder dragon are not always seen as a single entity. It is hard to tell wether or not wording like mouth of Zhaithan or Mordremoth is the Maguuma are limited to metaphores. To explain this further. Elder Dragons are tied to a sphere of influence, that is what makes the dragon an elder dragon (although a dragon can have several spheres of influence, but it is very hard to maintain and not considered natural, atleast not for a traditional elder dragon). Anyways, it seems that the physical size is not really important as the thing that makes a dragon elder is not expressed in physical size, but in influence. The spheres of influence are depicted as simular in size in graphical representations, but those who studied the theory of all have explained that it is impossible to see and comprehend it all, so that can very well be due to the graphical representation making it simpler.

So let's asume a few things.1: Physical size is not important.2: Size of influence is unknown at best, but of no importance to anything.

Now look again at the eternal alchemy cutscene in Omad's device. We see a sequence of activating. This corresponds to the sequence of awakening and the pressumed colors of the sphere of influence and the elder dragon.orange - Primordusblue - DSDwhite - Jormaggreen - Zhaitanpurple - Kralkatorikyellow - Mordremoth

Why is all this of importance? In the Eternal alchemy there doesnt seem to be a lot of significance to the sequence. It is like lights on a system boards lighting up one after another to show their activation. In the grand scheme they are just as well awakened at the same time. They where asleep for 11000 years and they woke up in about 250 years time. In the grand scheme of things, that is a blink of an eye.

My conclusion is that there is not much importance to the sequence. All spheres of influence are equal. Size doesnt matter boys.