Holistic balance [Suggested Patch Notes]

[saerni.2584]

Now for some additional trait changes:

• Improvisation: This skill now allows two stolen skill uses and reduces the recharge of one random equipped utility (heal, utility or elite) by 50%.
• Last Refuge: This trait now removes reveal before using Lesser Blinding Powder.
• Concealed Defeat: This trait now uses the updated version of Smoke Screen.
• Lesser Smoke Screen: This trait now creates the same ring as Smoke Screen. Deception skills have 20% reduced recharge (same effect)
• Shadow Protector: This trait now applies Aegis in addition to its original effects.
• Rending Shade: This trait no longer reduces damage taken from targets without boons. Rending Shade now applies weakness for 5 seconds in addition to stealing boons.
• Thrill of the Crime: This trait now applies a total of 5 stacks of might for 10 seconds.
• Quick Pockets: This trait now restores 6 initiative on weapon swap in combat.
• Preparedness: This trait now increases maximum initiative by 2. Base initiative pool has been increased by 1.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

since smoke fields and gaining stealth are thiefs thing, it would be cool to see some more trait interaction with these two mechanics. for example, when i'm unloading through black powder, I get some blinds and that's cool... but it would be even cooler if when you blind someone you get aegis or something. doing that combo could become a counter against something like rapid fire. I know aegis doesn't really fit thematically... but cmon! who cares about themes lol.

[saerni.2584]

I will reformat the OP and integrate the feedback later tonight or tomorrow.

In the meantime, if people think a weaponset, trait or utility needs a change (nerf, functionality change or buff) they should speak up.

I’m not a dev nor am I all knowing. I’m very happy to argue whether a nerf proposed is too much, a buff OP or UP and above all, the design philosophy that got us here.

[Jack Redline.5379]

@saerni.2584 said:Now for some additional trait changes:

• Improvisation: This skill now allows two stolen skill uses and reduces the recharge of one random equipped utility (heal, utility or elite) by 50%.
• Last Refuge: This trait now removes reveal before using Lesser Blinding Powder.
• Concealed Defeat: This trait now uses the updated version of Smoke Screen.
• Lesser Smoke Screen: This trait now creates the same ring as Smoke Screen. Deception skills have 20% reduced recharge (same effect)
• Shadow Protector: This trait now applies Aegis in addition to its original effects.
• Rending Shade: This trait no longer reduces damage taken from targets without boons. Rending Shade now applies weakness for 5 seconds in addition to stealing boons.
• Thrill of the Crime: This trait now applies a total of 5 stacks of might for 10 seconds.
• Quick Pockets: This trait now restores 6 initiative on weapon swap in combat.
• Preparedness: This trait now increases maximum initiative by 2. Base initiative pool has been increased by 1.

If you want to change improvisation i would go with this

Improvisation : All equpiped utilities and elite recharged by 65 % (remove 2 stolen skills have just one)

Preparednes : Incraese base initiative increased by 3 and this trait increases max ini by 2 (just for lols)

[JeanneRising.5140]

As we seem to make a nice little list here (nice Idea), I'd also like to address a point which sometimes comes up but maybe could be of interest now with Swipe a little more

• Scorpion Wire: Please make it somewhat reliable?? All those WVW Minions and their hardcore pulls...and a thief using scorpion wire misses in half the cases and is pulled in the middle of the group by reflect otherwise. I'd find it rather fitting to have the infighting kind of character being able to pull someone into 1v1 from distance reliably - it is a huge trade-off to use the skill anyway.
• Infiltrator's Strike: This ones more a side node...and I cannot quite say how I'd implement it...but I would like a choice to omit the Return option when I didn't hit anything anyway ^^. Kind of for a nice Swiftness Source for Glass Cannon fans who'd gladly give up the safety of Acrobatics if they could just get Swiftness in a good way somewhere else? Maybe just call it Infiltrator's Charge then...

Like I said...second one was more a side node...but Scorpion Wire could really need some love (bad enough we won't get a "GET OVER HERE!" sound ;) )

[bq pd.2148]

@saerni.2584 said:Now for some additional trait changes:

• Rending Shade: This trait no longer reduces damage taken from targets without boons. Rending Shade now applies weakness for 5 seconds in addition to stealing boons.i think the boonrip now applies after the damage, would be nice if it did apply before the damage. optimally with a high priority on protection/resistance.

edit: and making it apply on multihit (sneak attack) would be a good slot to buff pistol mainhand, maybe a bit too much - just enough for me to try it again :D

[kash.9213]

@MUDse.7623 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Now for some additional trait changes:

• Rending Shade: This trait no longer reduces damage taken from targets without boons. Rending Shade now applies weakness for 5 seconds in addition to stealing boons.i think the boonrip now applies after the damage,
  would be nice if it did apply before the damage. optimally with a high priority on protection/resistance.

edit: and making it apply on multihit (sneak attack) would be a good slot to buff pistol mainhand, maybe a bit too much - just enough for me to try it again :D

That would be wild with my 1 malice DJ from Hidden Thief and possibly a full stack of might or something, but it's not all that bad right now since Malicious Intent refunds one anyway and I'll have another fully booned one ready quick.

Every hit of Sneak Attack along with other boon rips, Premeditation, and other modifiers would be scary fun even at 900 range.

[saerni.2584]

I’ve updated the OP with additional notes for Venoms and some changes to other items.

Again, please let me know if a particular skill should be nerfed or buffed and I’ll consider adding it to my OP. Other suggestions welcome as to what I’ve listed in the OP.

[babazhook.6805]

@saerni.2584 said:I’ve updated the OP with additional notes for Venoms and some changes to other items.

Again, please let me know if a particular skill should be nerfed or buffed and I’ll consider adding it to my OP. Other suggestions welcome as to what I’ve listed in the OP.

Infiltrators signet. Reduce cooldown to 2O seconds. This skill now Regenerates 2 INI every 10 seconds.

Rationale. All other signets have seen buffs . This is the orphan of signets. The lower cooldown will allow sets without ports a port (such as d/d) and the higher INI regen allows for sets to stick in battle longer or even consider dropping TR.

[saerni.2584]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’ve updated the OP with additional notes for Venoms and some changes to other items.

Again, please let me know if a particular skill should be nerfed or buffed and I’ll consider adding it to my OP. Other suggestions welcome as to what I’ve listed in the OP.

Infiltrators signet. Reduce cooldown to 2O seconds. This skill now Regenerates 2 INI every 10 seconds.

Rationale. All other signets have seen buffs . This is the orphan of signets. The lower cooldown will allow sets without ports a port (such as d/d) and the higher INI regen allows for sets to stick in battle longer or even consider dropping TR.

Good points. I’ll add it in.

[babazhook.6805]

Signets of Power.

The added passives across the board are not significant enough in Particular given they tied to killing a foe.

Signet of Malice. Increase passive heal 30 percent.Assassins signet Might stacks increased to 5 .Infiltrators Added INI on kill is 2Agility is fineShadow adds 2 seconds stealth and 3 seconds regen.

[saerni.2584]

@babazhook.6805 said:Signets of Power.

The added passives across the board are not significant enough in Particular given they tied to killing a foe.

Signet of Malice. Increase passive heal 30 percent.Assassins signet Might stacks increased to 5 .Infiltrators Added INI on kill is 2Agility is fineShadow adds 2 seconds stealth and 3 seconds regen.

I like these as well. I’d like to iterate on Shadow Signet by adding a removal of revealed on kill with a 4 second cooldown on the Signet’s effect. Regeneration would be 4 seconds duration.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@"babazhook.6805" said:Signets of Power.

The added passives across the board are not significant enough in Particular given they tied to killing a foe.

I absolutely hate, Hate, HATE that Anet tied Signets of Power to kills. Like it's not difficult enough to get a kill 1v1 with a Thief, they want us to take this trait into a teamfight over straight increased (crit-)damage/crit chance? If I get a kill in a 1v1, absolutely none of the SoP on-kill perks benefit me because no one is around to use them on (Stealth, really?). I'm about to be out of combat, so I'm going to get fully healed anyway. And if I am in a teamfight and I get a kill, I'm going to be out of gas, so I'm going to get out of Dodge so I can reset. Anything less than an outright complete "Thief refill" (health, endurance, initiative, cooldowns) is hardly worth giving up actual useful traits.

Not to mention that SoP has absolutely NOTHING to do with Critical Strikes. It has nothing to do with actually killing the enemy, it's all about "celebrating" the kill. Personally, I'd be more apt to take the trait if it summoned several Thieves around the fallen body that did nothing but dance and cheer for the next 15 minutes... just to create salt.

Personally, I'd be happy just to take a straight copy of the Elementalist's Written in Stone trait, allowing signets to maintain their passive effects while on cooldown. It would make Signet of Malice much, much more useful across the board.

[supa suop.8026]

@"babazhook.6805" said:Signets of Power.

The added passives across the board are not significant enough in Particular given they tied to killing a foe.

Personally, think the problem of this trait is the "on kill" condition. It would have made much more sense if they change it to "on critical hit" instead.

Signet of Malice: Gain increased healing(100%) when you land a critical strike.Assassin's Signet: Gain might(2 stacks for 5 seconds) when you land a critical hit. 1s ICDInfiltrator's signet: Gain 1 initiative when you land a critical hit. 3s ICDSignet of Agility: Gain 5 endurance when you land a critical hit.Signet of Shadows: Blind foes(2s) when you land a critical hit. 5s ICD

I believe that this will make the trait more appealing to Both PvP and Pve, but SoP would have to be moved out of the adept tier and put into the master tier or maybe even GM tier.

[bq pd.2148]

@supa suop.8026 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:Signets of Power.

The added passives across the board are not significant enough in Particular given they tied to killing a foe.

Personally, think the problem of this trait is the "on kill" condition. It would have made much more sense if they change it to "on critical hit" instead.

Signet of Malice: Gain increased healing(100%) when you land a critical strike.Assassin's Signet: Gain might(2 stacks for 5 seconds) when you land a critical hit. 1s ICDInfiltrator's signet: Gain 1 initiative when you land a critical hit. 3s ICDSignet of Agility: Gain 5 endurance when you land a critical hit.Signet of Shadows: Blind foes(2s) when you land a critical hit. 5s ICD

I believe that this will make the trait more appealing to Both PvP/and Pve, but SoP would have to be moved out of the adept tier and put into the master tier or maybe even GM tier.

i dont think you can move it to GM as those traits are too strong to move from there. maybe swap it with sundering shade in master as the other 2 would just compete with twin fangs and lose mostly.the signet of agility effect would need an ICD too (and if its just 1s) or the endurance gain would be insane.

---

@saerni.2584

sundering shade :

• remove fury.
• double the the vuln stacks (10 stacks, 5 seconds).
• apply vuln before the damage of the stealth attack. (just like i want rending shade to strip boons before the stealth attack to not just support follow up dmg but the stealth attack itself too)

from what i have tested sundering shade applies the vuln after the hit and the fury is already overkill in that traitline.if you move it to adept with the above change to compete with twin fangs, i would (given the rather short duration of the vuln) double the applied vuln stacks, remove fury and make it apply vuln before the stealth attack. else i dont see it competing with twin fangs or the current master options. this way it would be a better choice for stealth weaving builds or for bursts, worse choice for groups with enough vuln or builds that dont weave stealth enough.

[supa suop.8026]

Also another thought.

Swipe

• Change the unblockable attack into Gain the unblockable effect (5s) if you land swipe.

It never made sense to me when they made Swipe (the attack) unblockable when we already have basi venom as well as Bountiful theft to assist with getting a successful swipe. This change allows the daredevil to apply greater pressure on their target if they land a swipe which would be helpful with the different type of block that other classes have.

[saerni.2584]

@MUDse.7623

10 stacks before a DJ hits or MBS might be too uh, stacked, lol.

But I agree it doesn’t need fury and more vulnerability makes sense. I’ve updated the OP to reflect a modification of that trait.

[saerni.2584]

I also updated Body Shot based on feedback and based on further reflection.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@"saerni.2584" said:EDIT: CONSOLIDATED CHANGES UPDATED 6/21/2019

• Swipe: now has reduced recharge if used within 360 distance units. (-33%)I think I'd rather see a defensive buff here to encourage and facilitate the close range gameplay the swipe change wanted to create. Maybe gaining Aegis or blinding the opponent when that close would be better? Swindler's Equilibrium and Mark with Trickery has a nice feel to it timing wise for the cooldowns, so taking Swipe to 25s base CD may be enough.
• Repeater: now deals additional damage to crippled targets (+15%)
• Sneak Attack: increased the per shot damage of this skill (+20%)The damage on pure power for these two skills is already pretty high, hampered by the lack of utility on P/D. Not sure how I feel about this honestly, I'd rather see increased utility through smart use of combos tbh. See below.
• Shadowstrike: this skill is now unblockable.I don't think this is needed with how fast the skill is tbh. I'd sooner see something like Cloak and Dagger be unblockable if the target is immobilised, to encourage intelligent use of combos between the skills on the bar. May be too much of a buff on S/D tho.
• Body Shot: Projectile speed has been increased by 20%. Body Shot now applies additional vulnerability to disabled foes (5 stacks, 10 second duration).
• Backstab: Vulnerability is now twice as effective for this skill. (2% bonus damage per stack)
• Malicious Backstab: bonus damage has been reduced per malice stack. (+5%) (This skill inherits the new vulnerability bonus from Backstab)No issues with these changes, they seem pretty well thought out. Backstab needing more setup but having a better payout on more builds is a good thing imo, as long as the damage from building max damage on both DE and DD backstabs is roughly the same as it is now. They can both hit for 20k now, so no need to creep the high end any further.
• Dancing Dagger: this skill now tracks the target and deals bonus damage per bounce (+5%)
• Cloak and Dagger: this skill now changes to "Shadow's Urgency" on successful strike (one use).
• Shadow's Urgency: this skill grants super speed (1.5 seconds, 3 initiative).Just bear in mind that any changes you make here will also affect S/D. I kinda agree with others in the forums that the dual wield mechanic should change skills 2-4, not just 3, so that way they can balance each set more easily. That may be a pipe dream at this point tho.
• Smoke Screen: this skill now creates a ring of smoke around the thief.
• Tripwire: this skill now applies vulnerability in addition to its other effects. (10 stacks, 10 seconds).This change on top of the others would make camping sentries on a trapper DE instagib build too easy in WvW. Bear in mind that the Deadly Trapper trait in DA also applies vulnerability and might on trap trigger, so combining this trap with shadow trap when traited would give 20 vuln and 20 might stacks with 5s fury, as well as knocking down your target and porting you to it. Fits the whole ambush theme, but with your change to backstab getting double effectiveness from vulnerability that's 40% extra damage from the vuln already, add impact sigil and night sigil for two more 10% modifiers, add 250% ferocity because of No Quarter and the fury from shadow trap, and you can see how this could get out of hand quickly. We haven't even considered the damage bonuses from DE and Mark yet.

If you're going to change backstab as you said, you need to think very carefully before giving vulnerability access to other skills, particularly when those skills can be used to set up an instant spike like the example given. Sure, it'd be a funny one trick pony build that would be fun for the thief using it, but it would be an absolute salt mine for everyone else and would just result in nerfs down the line imo.

• Ambush: this skill now calls in a stealthed thief NPC which either uses Unload or Backstab and then despawns.Personally I would rework this skill into a sentry trap that applies marked and vulnerability in a radius. If any class gets access to marked, core thief having a trap for it makes a lot more sense than anything else, and it would give thieves an edge in scouting without being as oppressive as a full reveal. Sure, it's niche, but it would actually see some use this way rather than none at all.
• Shadow Trap: this skill now has reduced range and will now teleport rather than Shadowstep to the target.I love how busted the range is if you place it carefully, but making the skill reliable is probably a better shout haha.
• Caltrops: this skill now has a 300 radius and applies Slow (1 second per pulse).
• Daggerstorm: this skill's duration, cooldown and range has been reduced (3 seconds, 3.25 second evade, 60 second recharge, 600 range)Good changes
• Improvisation: This skill now allows two stolen skill uses and reduces the recharge of one random equipped utility (heal, utility or elite) by 50%.This makes sense. If it only refreshed something that has already been used that would be more reliable, but that might lead back to DS spamming that way too.
• Last Refuge: This trait now removes reveal before using Lesser Blinding Powder.
• Concealed Defeat: This trait now uses the updated version of Smoke Screen.
• Lesser Smoke Screen: This trait now creates the same ring as Smoke Screen. Deception skills have 20% reduced recharge (same effect)
• Shadow Protector: This trait now applies Aegis in addition to its original effects.
• Rending Shade: This trait no longer reduces damage taken from targets without boons. Rending Shade now applies weakness for 5 seconds in addition to stealing boons.No issues with these, they seem fun.
• Thrill of the Crime: This trait now applies a total of 5 stacks of might for 10 seconds in addition to Fury and Swiftness.Not sure if it's needed tbh, see my note on Assassin Signet below.
• Quick Pockets: This trait now restores 6 initiative on weapon swap in combat.Might be OP when combined with M7. I'd rather see changes like this go into DD, as at present the extra ini from M7 along with good protection and might access makes DE a better brawler than DD when built for it, so I'd want to buff DD without buffing DE in that regard.
• Preparedness: This trait now increases maximum initiative by 2. Base initiative pool has been increased by 1.
• Sundering Shade: This trait no longer applies Fury. This trait now applies 10 stacks of vulnerability after a stealth attack hits with a 6 second duration.See note on Tripwire. If you're going to make backstab have more damage with vuln, you need to make sure you're not just handing out vuln like candy on too many skills.
• Venoms: all venoms now apply a variable duration boon, during which attacks will apply condition effects in addition to normal effects.
• Spider Venom: 12 second duration, applies 1 stack of poison per strike with a base 6 second duration.
• Scale Venom: 6 second duration, applies 1 stack of torment and 1 stack of vulnerability per strike, torment 5 second duration, vulnerability 10 second duration.
• Devourer Venom: 3 second duration, applies 1 stack of Immobilize per strike with a one second duration. Cannot be applied more than once per second per target.
• Ice Drake Venom: 3 second duration, applies 1 stack of Chill per strike with a one second duration. Striking a chilled target while the Venom is active applies an additional 1 second of Chill. The second effect cannot be applied more than once per second per target.Honestly, I still wouldn't slot any of these, and that's a reflection on the design of venoms, not on you. I like the idea of making venoms an extra F skill, so you have one equipped and can swap which one when out of combat.
• Infiltrator’s Signet: Increased initiative regen to 2 every 10 seconds. Reduced recharge to 20 seconds.
• Signets of Power: The additional signet passive bonus is adjusted for the following:
  1. Signet of Malice: This bonus passive no longer heals on kill. Healing per strike is now improved by 30%
  2. Signet of Shadows: This bonus passive now removes reveal and applies regeneration for 4 seconds on kill on a 4 second cooldown.
  3. Assassin’s Signet: This bonus passive now applies 5 stacks of might for 5 seconds on kill, on a 1 second cooldown.The Assassin Signet extra passive change may be a bit redundant given Assassin's Fury with No Quarter and TotC will stack 25 might in a fight by themselves pretty quick, especially on DE with Mark being refreshed per kill, but I don't know what else you'd put there either. Frankly this trait always seemed a bit weak since they changed it from might stacks on signet use.

In general, there's some good changes here. I'd personally focus on things that make landing damage more reliable though, rather than buffing the base damage, as I think that is more healthy in the long run.

[saerni.2584]

@Jugglemonkey.8741

Good feedback :) especially about maybe too much vulnerability. I might argue that it seems like a lot but all these require set up and all won’t be in the same builds so it may not be too overloaded.

Honestly, Swipe is the hardest thing to make suggestions for just because it functions as Steal (minus) rather than truly behaving like a different skill. More rapid steals but from short range accomplished more access to on steal boons/effects/stolen skills and increases both offensive and defensive power if you play closer range. But I agree, this is the harder one to balance in an appealing way for everyone playing it.

The P/D changes are due to a couple of personal observations.

1. Repeater increased damage but at the expense of significant survivability. Giving opponents a 4 second window in which P/D can’t teleport is a non-trivial change and makes P/D play more like P/P after landing a Shadowstrike.
2. Damage on Repeater, however, isn’t nearly as strong as Unload. In fact, both Sneak Attack and Repeater are lacking in damage. Even if Sneak Attack is shared with P/P and that makes lower damage needed, Repeater is a limited time Unload skill with no might stacking and locks out the actually unique weapon skill of the set, gameplay wise.

So, in order to find a compromise position, I decided that Shadowstrike should at least be reliable to land in exchange for the lockout time. It’s not spamable so it isn’t overpowered to have it be Unblockable.

I’d also buff damage on Repeater and Sneak Attack for good measure. Not to Unload levels. But I’d buff it somewhat significantly from where it is now. It has room to grow without overshadowing Unload.

I’ll address the rest in a follow up post :)