We have reclaimed our title!

[ArthurDent.9538]

Lowest power pve dps once more with the 5% modifier from shared empowerment removed benchmark dps will go from about 31.4k to a bit under 30k (the only power class under 30k) since being second lowest was clearly too high. Such a great herald overhaul we just had, gutting f2 to near uselessness and knocking off 10% of our sustained dps by bug fixing what let us stay competitive with extremely inadequate compensation. While we are at it can we fix inspiring reinforcement multihitting on large hit boxes and killing off chaos Chrono permanent 9 boons so that we can go back to being auto kicked for trying to join raids on power rev again?

[nosleepdemon.1368]

I'm sorry did you level a Rev to be meta at something? You poor soul :( Rev was accidentally strong at launch, but now we are and have been for a long time in just the right spot - the least played of all professions. We even got an Elite spec chosen not for her suitability, but to tick a diversity box. Nevertheless, for some reason, I can't stop playing this class. It makes me feel special being the Only Revenant In The Villllagge.

[ArthurDent.9538]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:While we are at it can we fix inspiring reinforcement multihitting on large hit boxes and killing off chaos Chrono permanent 9 boons so that we can go back to being auto kicked for trying to join raids on power rev again?

Turns out I'm psychic and now we don't even get an official benchmark anymore.

[Kain Francois.4328]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:While we are at it can we fix inspiring reinforcement multihitting on large hit boxes and killing off chaos Chrono permanent 9 boons so that we can go back to being auto kicked for trying to join raids on power rev again?

Turns out I'm psychic and now we don't even get an official benchmark anymore.

Hello necroobumper.

Rev is 35k on large hitbox according to SC.

[ArthurDent.9538]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:While we are at it can we fix inspiring reinforcement multihitting on large hit boxes and killing off chaos Chrono permanent 9 boons so that we can go back to being auto kicked for trying to join raids on power rev again?

Turns out I'm psychic and now we don't even get an official benchmark anymore.

Hello necroobumper.

Rev is 35k on large hitbox according to SC.

Power

[Kain Francois.4328]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:While we are at it can we fix inspiring reinforcement multihitting on large hit boxes and killing off chaos Chrono permanent 9 boons so that we can go back to being auto kicked for trying to join raids on power rev again?

Turns out I'm psychic and now we don't even get an official benchmark anymore.

Hello necroobumper.

Rev is 35k on large hitbox according to SC.

Power

29.5k + Boons galore. (See description)

Herald is a support spec.

[otto.5684]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:While we are at it can we fix inspiring reinforcement multihitting on large hit boxes and killing off chaos Chrono permanent 9 boons so that we can go back to being auto kicked for trying to join raids on power rev again?

Turns out I'm psychic and now we don't even get an official benchmark anymore.

Hello necroobumper.

Rev is 35k on large hitbox according to SC.

Power

29.5k + Boons galore. (See description)

Herald is a support spec.

Herald is support spec? There is not a single support build in any game mode that uses herald. It is only used as power dps.

[DonArkanio.6419]

@otto.5684 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:While we are at it can we fix inspiring reinforcement multihitting on large hit boxes and killing off chaos Chrono permanent 9 boons so that we can go back to being auto kicked for trying to join raids on power rev again?

Turns out I'm psychic and now we don't even get an official benchmark anymore.

Hello necroobumper.

Rev is 35k on large hitbox according to SC.

Power

29.5k + Boons galore. (See description)

Herald is a support spec.

Herald is support spec? There is not a single support build in any game mode that uses herald. It is only used as power dps.

It doesn't change the fact that Herald on its own is a support E-Spec.

[narcx.3570]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:Lowest power pve dps once more with the 5% modifier from shared empowerment removed benchmark dps will go from about 31.4k to a bit under 30k (the only power class under 30k) since being second lowest was clearly too high. Such a great herald overhaul we just had, gutting f2 to near uselessness and knocking off 10% of our sustained dps by bug fixing what let us stay competitive with extremely inadequate compensation. While we are at it can we fix inspiring reinforcement multihitting on large hit boxes and killing off chaos Chrono permanent 9 boons so that we can go back to being auto kicked for trying to join raids on power rev again?

Weeeelllllll, Chaos Chrono is dead... Since the Dec 11th patch. If you're in a group, and the chrono is running chaos, you need to politely see yourself out and save yourself the headache of that run.

[Taobella.6597]

what WvW uses herald for support o.o

[Aeolus.3615]

Rev atm can fit many roles in the hands of decent players

Not every one need to play the aoe stack n spam meta.... that’s for badies that need to be carried with game easy mode

The only issue is that will be 10x harder to play due how aoe spam setup are carrying lots play groups.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Taobella.6597 said:what WvW uses herald for support o.o

Perma-swiftness for Golem rushes obv.

[Kain Francois.4328]

@otto.5684 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:While we are at it can we fix inspiring reinforcement multihitting on large hit boxes and killing off chaos Chrono permanent 9 boons so that we can go back to being auto kicked for trying to join raids on power rev again?

Turns out I'm psychic and now we don't even get an official benchmark anymore.

Hello necroobumper.

Rev is 35k on large hitbox according to SC.

Power

29.5k + Boons galore. (See description)

Herald is a support spec.

Herald is support spec? There is not a single support build in any game mode that uses herald. It is only used as power dps.

Herald is absolutely a support spec. From its motif, elite spec weapon, down to its trait design. Too bad shield sucks. still a support spec though.

When we get our third elite specialization with a Greatsword, that will be our power spec.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:While we are at it can we fix inspiring reinforcement multihitting on large hit boxes and killing off chaos Chrono permanent 9 boons so that we can go back to being auto kicked for trying to join raids on power rev again?

Turns out I'm psychic and now we don't even get an official benchmark anymore.

Hello necroobumper.

Rev is 35k on large hitbox according to SC.

Power

29.5k + Boons galore. (See description)

Herald is a support spec.

Herald is support spec? There is not a single support build in any game mode that uses herald. It is only used as power dps.

Herald is

absolutely

a support spec. From its motif, elite spec weapon, down to its trait design. Too bad shield sucks. still a support spec though.

When we get our third elite specialization with a Greatsword, that will be our power spec.

Wanna bet that they will manage a way to make it into another cucked support spec?

[otto.5684]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:While we are at it can we fix inspiring reinforcement multihitting on large hit boxes and killing off chaos Chrono permanent 9 boons so that we can go back to being auto kicked for trying to join raids on power rev again?

Turns out I'm psychic and now we don't even get an official benchmark anymore.

Hello necroobumper.

Rev is 35k on large hitbox according to SC.

Power

29.5k + Boons galore. (See description)

Herald is a support spec.

Herald is support spec? There is not a single support build in any game mode that uses herald. It is only used as power dps.

Herald is

absolutely

a support spec. From its motif, elite spec weapon, down to its trait design. Too bad shield sucks. still a support spec though.

When we get our third elite specialization with a Greatsword, that will be our power spec.

Thematically herald is supposed to be a support spec. In reality though, it is not. The utilities and traits do not synergize with anything but power builds.

[narcx.3570]

@otto.5684 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:While we are at it can we fix inspiring reinforcement multihitting on large hit boxes and killing off chaos Chrono permanent 9 boons so that we can go back to being auto kicked for trying to join raids on power rev again?

Turns out I'm psychic and now we don't even get an official benchmark anymore.

Hello necroobumper.

Rev is 35k on large hitbox according to SC.

Power

29.5k + Boons galore. (See description)

Herald is a support spec.

Herald is support spec? There is not a single support build in any game mode that uses herald. It is only used as power dps.

Herald is

absolutely

a support spec. From its motif, elite spec weapon, down to its trait design. Too bad shield sucks. still a support spec though.

When we get our third elite specialization with a Greatsword, that will be our power spec.

Thematically herald is supposed to be a support spec. In reality though, it is not. The utilities and traits do not synergize with anything but power builds.

Herald works in such a weird way... Like, at first glance it seems like a support spec: pulses boons to allies, no-brainer, case closed.

But in actual performance, it only really shines as a solo spec (which creates run off success into PvP and WvW.) I think it like exists in a weird place where yes, it is a support spec--but only for yourself. Which creates gameplay that's hyper strong when yer soloing or in a mob of people with no organized support (supplying yourself with perma-20-25 might/fury/swiftness/protection, with full zeker/scholar gearing), but super bad in groups that already have boons (aka, 99% of groups.) It's like a "Self-support spec." I dunno.

If you were to benchmark Herald versus the other classes in such a way that everyone had to run builds and gearing options that supplied their own boons, it would probably be pretty competitive; but like, that's not really a niche anyone cares about.

[draxynnic.3719]

@narcx.3570 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@ArthurDent.9538 said:While we are at it can we fix inspiring reinforcement multihitting on large hit boxes and killing off chaos Chrono permanent 9 boons so that we can go back to being auto kicked for trying to join raids on power rev again?

Turns out I'm psychic and now we don't even get an official benchmark anymore.

Hello necroobumper.

Rev is 35k on large hitbox according to SC.

Power

29.5k + Boons galore. (See description)

Herald is a support spec.

Herald is support spec? There is not a single support build in any game mode that uses herald. It is only used as power dps.

Herald is

absolutely

a support spec. From its motif, elite spec weapon, down to its trait design. Too bad shield sucks. still a support spec though.

When we get our third elite specialization with a Greatsword, that will be our power spec.

Thematically herald is supposed to be a support spec. In reality though, it is not. The utilities and traits do not synergize with anything but power builds.

Herald works in such a weird way... Like, at first glance it seems like a support spec: pulses boons to allies, no-brainer, case closed.

But in actual performance, it only really shines as a solo spec (which creates run off success into PvP and WvW.) I think it like exists in a weird place where yes, it is a support spec--but only for yourself. Which creates gameplay that's hyper strong when yer soloing or in a mob of people with no organized support (supplying yourself with perma-20-25 might/fury/swiftness/protection, with full zeker/scholar gearing), but super bad in groups that already have boons (aka, 99% of groups.) It's like a "Self-support spec." I dunno.

If you were to benchmark Herald versus the other classes in such a way that everyone had to run builds and gearing options that supplied their own boons, it would probably be pretty competitive; but like, that's not really a niche anyone cares about.

I think this is largely on the money. Herald has a lot of support on paper and is obviously intended to be supportive, but in practice, apart from Facet of Nature it's pretty much pumping out the same boons as everyone else.

On the other hand, another part of it, I think, is that herald just doesn't benefit a lot from support attributes like concentration and healing power. They have little problem keeping boons up, and while you probably could put together a healing-oriented Ventari herald if you really wanted to, my gut feeling is that Renegade does it better. So there's a degree of it not being that herald fails to be supportive, but that the support it does provide isn't diminished much by going for full DPS stats, so why not go for a hybrid build that offers both DPS and a little support?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

As a PUGger, I've found Glint to be useful for really bad groups. Groups that are so bad that they won't stack on the tablet or within Soulcleave. Those kind of groups really benefit from wide-range protection, might, and fury.

I do lament that the power builds keep getting nerfed. Something I noticed awhile ago is that all of the DPs skills really... aren't. Precision Strike, unrelenting assault, death strike, shackling wave... if you factor in their activation time for their damage, they're barely better than the auto attack. In reality they're buffs and utility skills in disguise.

Something else I've noticed recently: the DPS of all the top DPSers actually comes from a select few skills. On the Renegade it is Orbital Bombardment and Unyielding Anguish, on the Deadeye it is Death's Judgement, on the Guardian it is Scorched Aftermath or Procession of Blades + Whirling Wrath, Reaper it is Soul Spiral, etc. Without these skills, their DPS would sit at the low 20k range. So really, it is like all the PVE DPS builds focus on exploiting one skill to do most of their damage. Herald... doesn't have one of those skills. The closest we get is impossible odds, which does make up 1/3rd of herald DPS when combined with Vengeful Hammers. It's not nearly enough, though. All of the Herald's skills are designed to be accurate and reliable for PVP, which means none of them get the option to be stupid powerful in PVE.

What irks me the most is the stupid non-logic that Anet used to nerf the Herald: Everyone hates conditions? Nerf them into the ground! The class that's condition weak is now doing really good? Don't bother buffing condi builds. Just nerf that build, too! That decision won't come back to haunt us when condition builds get buffed again.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:It's something I've noticed recently: the DPS of all the top DPSers actually comes from a select few skills. On the Renegade it is Orbital Bombardment and Unyielding Anguish

While this is somewhat true for some of the other classes you mention renegade doesn’t just rely on these two skills to do most of its damage, but on all of its skills. You can easily replace citadel bombardment and unyielding Anguish with other skills and you won’t see your dps drop by that much

Otherwise agreed Revenant lacks meaningful power DPS skill choices generally outside of Impossible Odds. Should extend the duration of Burst of Strength’s 15% buff in Glint to 8s+, give her a little more damage on Elemental Blast, and increase shackling wave/Deathstrike damage for pve a tiny bit and it would be back to 31k+ again

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:It's something I've noticed recently: the DPS of all the top DPSers actually comes from a select few skills. On the Renegade it is Orbital Bombardment and Unyielding Anguish

While this is somewhat true for some of the other classes you mention renegade doesn’t just rely on these two skills to do most of its damage, but on all of its skills. You can easily replace citadel bombardment and unyielding Anguish with other skills and you won’t see your dps drop by that much

Otherwise agreed Revenant lacks meaningful power DPS skill choices generally outside of Impossible Odds. Should extend the duration of Burst of Strength’s 15% buff in Glint to 8s+, give her a little more damage on Elemental Blast, and increase shackling wave/Deathstrike damage for pve a tiny bit and it would be back to 31k+ again

I did some baseline numbers awhile ago. This was done largely to demonstrate how punishing missing steps in DPS rotations can be in the game, but these numbers have been bizarrely useful for other things. So useful that I've actually considered making an updated version of this for every balance patch. I'll repost the condi renegade section here:

Mace Auto: 16.8kAll mace + axe DPS skills: 22.2k (Note: would be lower on small hitboxes)Shortbow Auto: 12.7kShortbow all DPS skills: 23.0kMace auto + elite upkeep skills: 22.1k

Those were nowhere near the 35k-37k benchmark at the time. The numbers would be lower now due to a couple of nerfs, but this is essentially what condi renegade does baseline. Out of sheer curiosity, I also decided to see how much damage using all of the mace + axe DPS skills would do, since it was also a simple rotation. It's... not that high. Even if you swap to the shortbow and somehow ace it with Sevenshot, you're doing doing much more damage. These rotations don't have optimum energy management. They just sit in one place and do their skills. To make proper use of energy, you'd have to dump it all in skills that do substantially more DPS. There's only a few options:

Citadel BombardmentUnyielding AnguishKalla Summons

I'm pretty sure that Razorclaw and Soucleave aren't adding 15k DPS to the rotation. But, both UA and CB are really strong. So, by process of elimination, those two skills are largely responsible for pushing Renegade into the 35k range. The other skills... might as well not exist. Icerazor doesn't do a lot of damage, and neither does Banish Enchantment. Embrace the Darkness only adds, like, 5k damage (this test was done with Diabolic Inferno) on top of whatever else you're doing, so using weapon skills while camping EoD/Soul Cleave will only net you to 28k DPS.

Unfortunately, I don't have a solution for the low power damage. The simple option would be to give Herald and Core one of those exploit skills: Something that is terrible in a PVP setting because no human will fall for it, but really good against a big dumb computer. As to how and where, I don't know. This disease has robbed me of my critical thinking and creativity.

[narcx.3570]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:It's something I've noticed recently: the DPS of all the top DPSers actually comes from a select few skills. On the Renegade it is Orbital Bombardment and Unyielding Anguish

While this is somewhat true for some of the other classes you mention renegade doesn’t just rely on these two skills to do most of its damage, but on all of its skills. You can easily replace citadel bombardment and unyielding Anguish with other skills and you won’t see your dps drop by that much

Otherwise agreed Revenant lacks meaningful power DPS skill choices generally outside of Impossible Odds. Should extend the duration of Burst of Strength’s 15% buff in Glint to 8s+, give her a little more damage on Elemental Blast, and increase shackling wave/Deathstrike damage for pve a tiny bit and it would be back to 31k+ again

They need to just straight-up, PvE-only, mega-buff Burst of Strength's active, and maybe even rework its passive (although changing it's passive would probably promote very inactive and lame gameplay).

But as it is, it doesn't even come close to its counter-parts like Assassin's Signet's 540 POWER active, or Peak Performance's/Big Game Hunter's long duration 20%, or the ridiculousness of Sic 'Em. All of these actives are far stronger, and last long enough to cover entire burst cycles... While I guess, technically, BoS does cover rev's burst cycle of "swap to Shiro, IO, Sword 2, Sword 4, lol AA," it's not enough--ESPECIIALLLLALALALLLY cuz Herald doesn't have a lot of burst skills in the first place.

They also need to add new burst skills to the class in general--maybe in the form of a PvE-only buffs to True Nature-Assassin, Glint Facet Actives, Jalis's utility, staff/axe/shield skills, or something... Anything... Because even if they do some numbers tweaks and bring Power Herald back up to like a 31k benchmark, it will still be considered a pretty useless choice since successful power dps is all about burst potential. Doing a steady 31k in a 10 second dps window is nothing compared to how the other classes can drop 150k+dps bursts in that timespan.

It's really sad too, cuz Revenant's core mechanics are almost tailored to being good for burst phases since they have access to double the skills as the other classes if they play around their legend swaps... But unfortunately, none of those skills do any real stackable damage, since--best case--they're just passive damage boosts that replace each other; trading hammers for impossible odds, etc. What could be interesting, is if they changed Draconic Echo to affect all upkeep skills instead of just facets in a way where you would essentially get the effects of both upkeep skills at the same time, but then be left without any energy for longer than usual... Then you could start layering these different skills in a way that would actually work around a burst phase.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@narcx.3570 said:

@"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:They need to just straight-up, PvE-only, mega-buff Burst of Strength's active, and maybe even rework its passive (although changing it's passive would probably promote very inactive and lame gameplay).

But as it is, it doesn't even come close to its counter-parts like Assassin's Signet's

540 POWER

active, or Peak Performance's/Big Game Hunter's long duration 20%, or the ridiculousness of Sic 'Em. All of these actives are far stronger, and last long enough to cover entire burst cycles... While I guess,

technically

, BoS does cover rev's burst cycle of "swap to Shiro, IO, Sword 2, Sword 4, lol AA," it's not enough--ESPECIIALLLLALALALLLY cuz Herald doesn't have a lot of burst skills in the first place.

They also need to add new burst skills to the class in general--maybe in the form of a PvE-only buffs to True Nature-Assassin, Glint Facet Actives, Jalis's utility, staff/axe/shield skills, or something... Anything... Because even if they do some numbers tweaks and bring Power Herald back up to like a 31k benchmark, it will still be considered a pretty useless choice since successful power dps is all about burst potential. Doing a steady 31k in a 10 second dps window is nothing compared to how the other classes can drop 150k+dps bursts in that timespan.

It's really sad too, cuz Revenant's core mechanics are almost tailored to being good for burst phases since they have access to double the skills as the other classes if they play around their legend swaps... But unfortunately, none of those skills do any real stackable damage, since--best case--they're just passive damage boosts that replace each other; trading hammers for impossible odds, etc. What could be interesting, is if they changed Draconic Echo to affect all

upkeep

skills instead of just facets in a way where you would essentially get the effects of both upkeep skills at the same time, but then be left without any energy for longer than usual... Then you could start layering these different skills in a way that would actually work around a burst phase.

10/10 analysis. I really would like to see Glint be stronger and more useful in PvE, so I'm so down for further uber pve only buffs for BoS or other aspects of her.

[Zaret.1450]

I have a couple ideas for the revenant that might be fine:First why dont change some of the facets buffs (except the ult they are all common buffs so i would change some for example instead of regeneration the heal pulses retaliation or instead of swiftness you get celerity)Second why dont increase the sword 4 y 3 dmg by the double and make them make less dmg when you hit a target more than once (ex i use them in VG and the first strike is 4k while the rest is 2.5 or so)for pve at least.You could increase the dmg given by burst of strenght to 30% for the next 2 attacks instead of being by time and make it 20-25%in pvp(or diferent numbers if its too low or too strong)Increase a bit the live steal for shiros facet for allies or for yourself so its worth using it.I dont say they should do all of this or hiperbuff herald but they should makr it more specific if its a buff suport then give some rare buffs to make it unique if you want it to hit change things so he can sacrifice suport for dmg .In renegade the only thing i want them to change are kallas abilities ,they are wells that you can target and kill too easily ,they could be invulnerable for a while or you could make them follow you as if you were their comander (you are their com in a way) if anyone disagrees tell me whyand what would you prefer maybe your ideas are far better than mine (probably they are as im not a pro).Pd .Hope anet listen to us

[Zaret.1450]

Ok with celerity i meant quickness .and the burst of strengh could be buffed by a trait if you think 30%is low(so you would sacrifice a sup trait for a dpa trait and it would be more balanced than just buffing it)

[ArthurDent.9538]

Just got 31283 after a few tries on the golem which can probably be optimized a bit more. Looks like we are back to more or less on par with power necro, engi, and ranger and that isn't counting facet of nature assassin on the party. Genuine thanks to the balance team for the pve buffs.