Point Blank Shot needs to do 0 (or at least very little) damage — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Point Blank Shot needs to do 0 (or at least very little) damage

Devildoc.6721Devildoc.6721 Member ✭✭✭
edited June 7, 2019 in Ranger

After years of watching rangers point blank shot out of their own barrage, I'm convinced it's the only way to make your average ranger see the skill as a tactical utility rather than attack they should spam off cooldown. Note you don't find Ele's using gust, mesmers using temporal curtain, or engineers using air blast on their flamethrower off cooldown. Even after politely informing them of the fact that their #1 skill does more damage (unless they're standing at melee range with a longbow which is usually not the case) than point blank shot so it's a personal DPS loss, they continue to assume that since it's a "special" attack that deals damage that it MUST do more damage than their "autoattack" so they MUST use it off cooldown for maximum efficiency. They don't view it as a tactical utility that it's intended for. It's disruptive to group play in anything other than a break bar or by sheer luck (almost never used intentionally for this purpose), an interrupted skill.

I know it makes little sense to shoot someone in the face at point blank with an arrow and not do any damage, but at the same time, neither does something actively being pushed back by said arrow (no getting hit by an arrow or bullet does not send a person flying backwards like the movies.. their body's own muscles make them lose balance and fall down from blood loss).. so we can chalk it up to video game mechanics like most everything else, to keep the utility of the skill while not encouraging its use just for damage.

If necessary since PVP rangers would notice a drop in burst damage since they usually lead off with PBS and then rapid fire to make the target eat the whole thing while stunned, you could split the skill for PVP/WvW and just make the PVE version do 0 or at least so little damage that no ranger will opt to use it over long range shot for damage.

Comments

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think mesmer greatsword is much more of a problem.

  • Rukario.1695Rukario.1695 Member ✭✭✭

    I do get tired of my melee target getting pushed away from me when I'm currently trying to do what burst damage I can, essentially ruining my damage output since I'm not hitting anything at all.

    But... Yeah.

    More violence, less violets I say. I'm rich you know, because I watch the ledges.

  • Devildoc.6721Devildoc.6721 Member ✭✭✭

    I never see the mesmer skill used in PVE events. I do see, and hear, a LOT of point blank shots. Trust me, I know the difference between Illusory wave, a level up explosion, and point blank shot. In virtually every case, it's a point blank shot. Second most often it's a warrior with peak performance using kick instead of or in addition to bolas. But that's not usually that often.

  • Aaralyna.3104Aaralyna.3104 Member ✭✭✭

    I use a mesmer with gs in pve but i always knew skill 5 is a pushback and therefore should never use it in group battles with the exception of breakbar as its a cc. Regardless if it does damage or not, players will use the skill if they see it and if they are aware how annoying pusbacks are in group content (some exceptions there in specific event where its needed as tactic... tarir). A lot of players are unaware of aoe fields of other players that are put at a fixed spot at mobs (read at melee dps feet) or combo fields in general. When i see someone push mobs i just explain them why its a bad idea to use push and when its good to use (cc). In full solo play they can use it as much as they like tho.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think they use it because they don't know what else to do besides auto attack. That is more of a rotation issue perhaps?

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Devildoc.6721Devildoc.6721 Member ✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    I think they use it because they don't know what else to do besides auto attack. That is more of a rotation issue perhaps?

    It's conditioning from other MMO's and RPG's where autoattacks/basic attacks are the lowest damage skill you can use at any time aside from utilities that do no damage at all or only token damage. If it does any real damage worth being considered, it's always more damage than the auto attack. GW2 is one of the exceptions to this where your basic attack is not meant to just be an auto attack as something to do when you have nothing else off cooldown. In some cases even if a skill does more than token damage, the #1 skill is designed to do more than it, so you should never see your "autoattack" as the lowest priority skill to use as it is in other MMO's and RPG's. In most of those other MMO's your auto attack does nothing but straight damage and maybe generates primary resource. Here your autos can cause conditions, boons, and aoe damage, it's not something to be overlooked.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2019

    I don't think the damage are the incensitive behind the abuse of the skill. The main reason players use it without a thought is that it doesn't need to be used at "point blank" range and it is an instant skill.
    For me the proper way to change it would be to change the knockback into a knockdown even if it's a PvE only change.

    @EmmetOtter.8542 said:
    Asking for a skill to be nerfed just to keep unskilled players from using it inappropriately is just stupid.

    The unskilled will eventually learn or they won't.

    People never learn. and it's especially true when they follow a zerg in PvE.

  • Devildoc.6721Devildoc.6721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    I don't think the damage are the incensitive behind the abuse of the skill. The main reason players use it without a thought is that it doesn't need to be used at "point blank" range and it is an instant skill.
    For me the proper way to change it would be to change the knockback into a knockdown even if it's a PvE only change.

    @EmmetOtter.8542 said:
    Asking for a skill to be nerfed just to keep unskilled players from using it inappropriately is just stupid.

    The unskilled will eventually learn or they won't.

    People never learn. and it's especially true when they follow a zerg in PvE.

    I think the core functionality of the skill being a utility to re-position enemies or create distance between them and you is good, a knockdown will have less utility in that regard. Rangers who use the skill properly can be an asset to a team, being able to push mobs INTO AOE or melee cleave or out of defense point circles The problem is that people aren't using it properly like that, people are using it for damage, because they're not aware, or don't want to believe, that a skill they have to hit a button for does equal to or less damage than a skill that goes on auto with no cooldown.
    I pointed out in the original post other skills with similar functions in other classes that I don't see being used as disruptively very often, and I think it's because those skills do no damage so people don't feel compelled to use them to deal damage with. I don't see staff eles using gust off cooldown, or dagger eles using updraft off cooldown. Those skills do no damage so they reserve them for using when knocking an enemy back would be beneficial by itself, to interrupt, re-position, or create distance. It's either that, or a difference in average intelligence of the playerbases of those two classes but I don't want to flame a playerbase like that, I want to assume that people are smart and will learn to use the skill properly if improper use is no longer encouraged by prior MMO conditioning and the assumption that skills do more damage than autoattacks.

    As for Emmet's complaint of a "nerf" Point blank shot should not be used for damage. Unless you are literally in melee range, long range shot does just as much, if not more damage, and doesn't have a cooldown. I added that it should be split PVP/WvW and PVE versions with the PVP version retaining its damage as a part of longbow ranger burst damage. I understand that use there, but it's not necessary in PVE and is obnoxious in group PVE when rangers are using the skill for damage without considering enemy positioning. For some rangers, who really do faceroll 5 4 3 2 1... this will be a damage increase if they just go 5 3 2 1 or 5 1 3 2 1 or anything BUT 5 4 3 2 1 because at least the mob will stand in barrage and take damage rather than getting punted out and avoiding the bulk of it.

  • Devildoc.6721Devildoc.6721 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't think I've seen an illusory wave knockback in a PVE event since the first Queen's Jubilee, that was over 5 years ago. But I saw a ranger point blank shot something out of aoe and melee at least once every single meta I did yesterday.during this bonus event. It's kind of a copout to keep pointing out other classes that can use knockbacks when 9/10 times it is a ranger. When it happens that frequently, they're obviously not learning on their own, so without a nudge, by like, taking the damage away from a utility skill to encourage its use as a utility rather than as damage, they'll probably never learn. They've been doing it for over 6 years with no evidence of it ever changing.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I rather want a trait that immobilzes on CC use in marksmanship. So the push would immobilize first and the target would not love at all although be CCed. Just for PvE use this would be great. For PvP it would depend on build and it should have an ICD or something like that to balance it.
    But otherwise it's just a L2P issue.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2019

    @Devildoc.6721 said:
    I want to assume that people are smart and will learn to use the skill properly if improper use is no longer encouraged by prior MMO conditioning and the assumption that skills do more damage than autoattacks.

    The game is already 7 years and the issue with point blank shot exist since release. If you really don't want people to use it abusively in PvE, you have to really make it "point blank" which mean melee range (just like updraft or illusionary wave). If you want to just make PvE a less frustrating place to play, the knockdown effect is a simple fix.

  • Taelac.7036Taelac.7036 Member ✭✭✭

    I get much more frustrated by the misuse of skills that bounce a nice ball or line of enemies out in all directions just as I hit my Rapid Fire or Whirling Defense than I do with another ranger not knowing how to use PBS.

    Good luck, have fun.

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2019

    @EmmetOtter.8542 said:
    Asking for a skill to be nerfed just to keep unskilled players from using it inappropriately is just stupid.

    The unskilled will eventually learn or they won't.

    QFT. Point Blank Shot isn't the problem. That said I wouldn't mind it being changed to a KD or applying the effect only at point blank range if they also added something else to it, maybe a cool flippy evade akin to SB3.

    ETA: Idea!
    Point Blank Shot is replaced by Punishing Shot. Projectile finisher. Causes knockdown based on the distance of your target (400-500-600 knockback becomes 1-3 seconds knockdown). Unblockable. CD increased to 20.

  • Taelac.7036Taelac.7036 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't like the idea of changing the knock back to a knock down, mostly because I do use PBS for its intended purposes in positioning enemies: farther away to get more out of Long Range Shot, into an AoE or the melee range of an ally, into a group or line with other enemies to take advantage of piercing or other multi-target or out of a defense/cap area to keep them from slowing that down. You can get some mob positioning control with pets, but its not nearly as precise or reliable, and often affects mobs you'd rather not move, so we'd pretty much lose all those abilities with a switch to knockdown.

    Good luck, have fun.

  • Devildoc.6721Devildoc.6721 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taelac.7036 said:
    I don't like the idea of changing the knock back to a knock down, mostly because I do use PBS for its intended purposes in positioning enemies: farther away to get more out of Long Range Shot, into an AoE or the melee range of an ally, into a group or line with other enemies to take advantage of piercing or other multi-target or out of a defense/cap area to keep them from slowing that down. You can get some mob positioning control with pets, but its not nearly as precise or reliable, and often affects mobs you'd rather not move, so we'd pretty much lose all those abilities with a switch to knockdown.

    This, I don't want to change the core functionality of the skill which is useful if used properly. I just want to discourage the improper use.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Devildoc.6721 said:
    I don't think I've seen an illusory wave knockback in a PVE event since the first Queen's Jubilee, that was over 5 years ago.

    I see them all the time. It's just that GS mesmers are less common than LB rangers.

    It's kind of a copout to keep pointing out other classes that can use knockbacks when 9/10 times it is a ranger.

    First, you haven't established that it's 90% likely to be a ranger; you've only established that rangers are the only ones that you notice knocking foes back. I assure you that they are not. I see scourges [f4] all the time, which is worse since it affects multiple foes.

    Second, no, it's not a copout to point out that the problem isn't unique to rangers.

    They've been doing it for over 6 years with no evidence of it ever changing.

    No, "they" have not been doing this for six years. Different people running different builds do the same thing because there is a universal problem that people aren't familiar with what their skills do.
    It's just that it's easiest to notice knockbacks. Other misuses and inefficiencies come from: using projectiles against foes that reflect, DPS while foes are blocking/dodging, blasting the 'wrong' fields, interrupting autoattacks, etc. Or people running solider's instead of zerker's (or even Marauder's). No amount of editing of skills/traits make up for people who don't do any research about how things work.

    In short: point-blank shot is a symptom of a larger issue, one that can't be resolved by removing damage from a single skill.

    Aside from wearing gear that makes them do less damage than they're causing the enemy to be scaled up to (and there's really nothing that can be done about that), those other things are not really detrimental to group play aside from getting the player themselves killed. A player killing themselves is negative feedback they can't ignore and they will probably learn from it. You fire into a reflecting enemy and get killed, you go "oh, I did something wrong and got killed because of it, I should not do that in the future" But when knocking an enemy out of a ball of aoe during the last seconds of a timed event causes the event to fail, blame is distributed among everyone, nobody says "I did something wrong" it becomes "maybe we didn't have enough people", so people don't learn what they did wrong and correct it. If you try over chat to tell someone they did something wrong, this baby coddling community will dogpile you making excuses for the bad play that failed the event "Maybe they're new" "are you sure it was point blank shot? It could have been a level up explosion" "Mesmers, Eles, Necros, and Engis can knock back too why do people blame rangers" etc. This community refuses to place responsibility for failure on a person and instead chooses to coddle and just say "Nice try, we can try it again in an hour and a half!"

    You see it all the time, if not getting breakbars broken causes an event to fail you can't declare that it's the fault of people not bringing CC and learning a 3 year old mechanic (breakbars) it's just "Nice try, we'll try again (doing the exact same thing and failing again) in 2 hours!" The result? Anet had to nerf Serpent's Ire to make it easy enough for zombies to do. If a map fails a dragonfall event because people won't listen when someone says to stop attacking the legendary because they all need to die within 30s of each other you can't call out those people on chat, the only rationale this coddling community will accept is "we didn't have enough people". You will never teach people in this game to "l2p" as long as responsibility for failure is distributed among everyone rather than a few people who actually caused the failure. You have to find other means of teaching, like putting training wheels on because this community will not allow for negative reinforcement.

  • @Devildoc.6721 said:
    Aside from wearing gear that makes them do less damage than they're causing the enemy to be scaled up to (and there's really nothing that can be done about that), those other things are not really detrimental to group play aside from getting the player themselves killed.

    I'm confused then by your original post: using point blank incorrectly is equally detrimental to pushing foes away using fear or illusionary wave or any other crowd control skill used improperly. People do them every bit as often as rangers misuses PBS. You keep pushing this one skill as if it's the only one out there causing issues, rather than you just happen to notice it more often.

    You fire into a reflecting enemy and get killed, you go "oh, I did something wrong and got killed because of it, I should not do that in the future"

    I can assure you that, no, some people do not do that. They complain that Feedback is overtuned... and continue to use projectiles. Or they don't even bother to figure out why they died.

    ... when knocking an enemy out of a ball of aoe during the last seconds of a timed event causes the event to fail, blame is distributed among everyone,

    How is that different for PBS from any other misused skill?

    if not getting breakbars broken causes an event to fail you can't declare that it's the fault of people not bringing CC and learning a 3 year old mechanic (breakbars)

    Sure.
    Which is why I don't wait until after the event to complain. I accept that not everyone understands the game at the depth I do (just as I'm aware I don't understand it at the level of others).

    Instead, I say something before the event. And I don't use jargon, such as "bring CC" because I accept that the type of person unfamiliar with a 3-year old mechanic is also unfamiliar with the abbreviations used to describe it. It doesn't always work, because some people aren't inclined to listen to a stranger and many aren't willing to swap skills. It does work often enough that I keep typing in /map or /say.

    The result? Anet had to nerf Serpent's Ire to make it easy enough for zombies to do.

    I doubt very much lack of CC was the only reason Serpent Ire was changed. There were lots of constructive criticisms aimed at that event; the amount of CC required was just one. It also was a critical event to a lot of people, making the issues with it fraught.

    You'll notice that other CC-heavy bosses were not nerfed.

    You will never teach people in this game to "l2p" as long as responsibility for failure is distributed among everyone rather than a few people who actually caused the failure.

    The thing is: it can't possibly be "a few people" contributing to failure. It takes quite a lot for there to be insufficient CC or DPS. We know this because (a) a core group of people who know mechanics are almost always enough and (b) because explaining to people before an event starts is often all it takes, even though we can presume that very few will change their behavior on the fly.

    You have to find other means of teaching, like putting training wheels on because this community will not allow for negative reinforcement.

    Negative reinforcement is largely a poor way to train, based on oodles of research out there.

    Changing individual skills is not going to teach anyone how to use their skills better. It will, at best, just mean that you personally won't be annoyed by misuse of that particular skill. Instead, people will be misusing other skills... and you might not even notice, as you haven't noticed necros and fear or mesmers and GS5.


    I'm not at all against ANet overhauling skills. There's no value in keeping things the way they are for the sake of the status quo.

    However, I also think we need something more substantive than "people misuse the skill," because that applies to all sorts of things. Why change this one and not any of the others? What makes PBS so much more important to the community than anything else?

  • Devildoc.6721Devildoc.6721 Member ✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Devildoc.6721 said:
    Aside from wearing gear that makes them do less damage than they're causing the enemy to be scaled up to (and there's really nothing that can be done about that), those other things are not really detrimental to group play aside from getting the player themselves killed.

    I'm confused then by your original post: using point blank incorrectly is equally detrimental to pushing foes away using fear or illusionary wave or any other crowd control skill used improperly. People do them every bit as often as rangers misuses PBS. You keep pushing this one skill as if it's the only one out there causing issues, rather than you just happen to notice it more often.

    PBS is the most subtle out of those effects, and I can notice it, I would notice if a pink aoe wave came out and pushed multiple enemies away instead of a bow sound followed by a knockback on one mob. I'm not seeing pink aoe waves with a big obvious magical crashing sound or enemies running away with skulls over their heads. I am hearing bowshots, followed by a single enemy getting pushed back 400 units.

    You fire into a reflecting enemy and get killed, you go "oh, I did something wrong and got killed because of it, I should not do that in the future"

    I can assure you that, no, some people do not do that. They complain that Feedback is overtuned... and continue to use projectiles. Or they don't even bother to figure out why they died.

    That can happen, but where people just ask for resses, but if people don't enable it and make dead people waypoint and run back they'll either learn, or spend a lot of time running back and not be a detriment to the group as a whole.

    ... when knocking an enemy out of a ball of aoe during the last seconds of a timed event causes the event to fail, blame is distributed among everyone,

    How is that different for PBS from any other misused skill?

    Because a misused skill in most cases only affects yourself personally and has minimal effect to the rest of the group. A misused knockback affects everyone.

    if not getting breakbars broken causes an event to fail you can't declare that it's the fault of people not bringing CC and learning a 3 year old mechanic (breakbars)

    Sure.
    Which is why I don't wait until after the event to complain. I accept that not everyone understands the game at the depth I do (just as I'm aware I don't understand it at the level of others).

    Instead, I say something before the event. And I don't use jargon, such as "bring CC" because I accept that the type of person unfamiliar with a 3-year old mechanic is also unfamiliar with the abbreviations used to describe it. It doesn't always work, because some people aren't inclined to listen to a stranger and many aren't willing to swap skills. It does work often enough that I keep typing in /map or /say.

    Almost all of the time, a handful of people that are capable of failing the event for the rest of the map don't listen, and afterwards, what are you going to do? Just go along with the baby coddlers saying "nice try, we'll get it for sure next time in 2 hours!"

    The result? Anet had to nerf Serpent's Ire to make it easy enough for zombies to do.

    I doubt very much lack of CC was the only reason Serpent Ire was changed. There were lots of constructive criticisms aimed at that event; the amount of CC required was just one. It also was a critical event to a lot of people, making the issues with it fraught.

    You'll notice that other CC-heavy bosses were not nerfed.

    Other CC heavy bosses didn't absolutely require CC in order to beat. If you fail to breakbar the matriarch wyvern, or either Shatterer, it doesn't fail the event, it just makes it take longer and in combination with low map DPS can cause a failure, but it does not cause a failure outright. It makes you miss out on achievements and if anyone mentuons failing to stop the attack, the coddling community says "so what? we still beat it, GJ everyone!"

    Serpents ire required CC or it failed every single time because you could only damage them after a breakbar.

    You will never teach people in this game to "l2p" as long as responsibility for failure is distributed among everyone rather than a few people who actually caused the failure.

    The thing is: it can't possibly be "a few people" contributing to failure. It takes quite a lot for there to be insufficient CC or DPS. We know this because (a) a core group of people who know mechanics are almost always enough and (b) because explaining to people before an event starts is often all it takes, even though we can presume that very few will change their behavior on the fly.

    Depends on tuning and scaling.

    You have to find other means of teaching, like putting training wheels on because this community will not allow for negative reinforcement.

    Negative reinforcement is largely a poor way to train, based on oodles of research out there.

    Changing individual skills is not going to teach anyone how to use their skills better. It will, at best, just mean that you personally won't be annoyed by misuse of that particular skill. Instead, people will be misusing other skills... and you might not even notice, as you haven't noticed necros and fear or mesmers and GS5.

    >

    As I pointed out, those 2 things have much more obvious signs, Everyone would notice those if they can notice a PBS. You keep referring to them when they're almost never used in the same situations as LB4. As I said, second most common is peak performance warriors using kick, but that's not that common. A key difference is, the fear does not cause damage, kick causes only token damage, point blank shot causes enough damage that people think it's good to use for sustained dps so they use it off cooldown because they think it improves dps.


    I'm not at all against ANet overhauling skills. There's no value in keeping things the way they are for the sake of the status quo.

    However, I also think we need something more substantive than "people misuse the skill," because that applies to all sorts of things. Why change this one and not any of the others? What makes PBS so much more important to the community than anything else?

    Frequency of misuse. There's a lot of longbow rangers because it's an easy forgiving class to play, so you will encounter problems with bad ranger players far more frequently than GS mesmers or fearing necros. I play Necro quite a bit as of late, and I only use my fear on breakbars, because there's never a reason to use it as a part of a regular dps rotation. It does no damage unless I'm specced for conditions then it can cause some DOT.

  • Taelac.7036Taelac.7036 Member ✭✭✭

    @Devildoc.6721 said:

    @Taelac.7036 said:
    I don't like the idea of changing the knock back to a knock down, mostly because I do use PBS for its intended purposes in positioning enemies: farther away to get more out of Long Range Shot, into an AoE or the melee range of an ally, into a group or line with other enemies to take advantage of piercing or other multi-target or out of a defense/cap area to keep them from slowing that down. You can get some mob positioning control with pets, but its not nearly as precise or reliable, and often affects mobs you'd rather not move, so we'd pretty much lose all those abilities with a switch to knockdown.

    This, I don't want to change the core functionality of the skill which is useful if used properly. I just want to discourage the improper use.

    To be clear, I don't like the idea of nerfing what damage it does, either. The kind of player who uses it on cooldown is unlikely to notice that it's not doing any damage and learn not to use it that way, and the kind of player who uses it for its intended purpose shouldn't be punished for a mistake made by plenty of other classes and skills. Archetype rangers are already disadvantaged by the boon-sharing mechanics that force the choice between sharing in might stacks or getting the most out of our arrows; further damage reduction will hurt us much more than inexperienced players deciding not to use the skill will help.

    Good luck, have fun.

  • Devildoc.6721Devildoc.6721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2019

    If that's true how come ele's aren't spamming gust off cooldown? Most staff eles pretty much camp fire attune unless they need heals I'll grant but there's use in air for static field (and the combo of static field + gust isn't bad). I think more people would recognize it as a dps loss and stop using it off cooldown.

    Here's an idea. It does only token damage unless you interrupt a skill with it. Then it deals more damage than it does now. Kind of a savage shot/punishing shot mechanic. It'd reward strategic use and punish random use in a way every ranger could visually see.

  • Shadowcat.2680Shadowcat.2680 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Devildoc.6721 said:
    I want to assume that people are smart and will learn to use the skill properly if improper use is no longer encouraged by prior MMO conditioning and the assumption that skills do more damage than autoattacks.

    The game is already 7 years and the issue with point blank shot exist since release. If you really don't want people to use it abusively in PvE, you have to really make it "point blank" which mean melee range (just like updraft or illusionary wave). If you want to just make PvE a less frustrating place to play, the knockdown effect is a simple fix.

    Anet has stated before that skill functionality cannot be split between the modes. Only number splits are possible (base damage, power coefficient, cooldown, etc).

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Devildoc.6721 said:
    I want to assume that people are smart and will learn to use the skill properly if improper use is no longer encouraged by prior MMO conditioning and the assumption that skills do more damage than autoattacks.

    The game is already 7 years and the issue with point blank shot exist since release. If you really don't want people to use it abusively in PvE, you have to really make it "point blank" which mean melee range (just like updraft or illusionary wave). If you want to just make PvE a less frustrating place to play, the knockdown effect is a simple fix.

    Anet has stated before that skill functionality cannot be split between the modes. Only number splits are possible (base damage, power coefficient, cooldown, etc).

    Still vote for a PvE focussed skill that will add immobilize to PBS and has some interaction with opening strike.

    This way it won't be an issue in PvP and be better for group usage in PvE.

  • Taelac.7036Taelac.7036 Member ✭✭✭

    @Devildoc.6721 said:
    If that's true how come ele's aren't spamming gust off cooldown? Most staff eles pretty much camp fire attune unless they need heals I'll grant but there's use in air for static field (and the combo of static field + gust isn't bad). I think more people would recognize it as a dps loss and stop using it off cooldown.

    You answered your own question. The kind of player who uses PBS as just another hit on a ranger is the kind of player who camps fire on an ele. They don't use gust off cooldown because they're not using air at all, because if you use air without understanding it, you die fast and often. You can use fire without understanding it and mostly still survive. The same kind of player uses stomp inappropriately on a warrior and illusory wave inappropriately on a mesmer. They're already not paying attention to the DPS of their skills, because they're not yet experienced enough to understand what they need to pay attention to at all.

    Good luck, have fun.

  • Durzlla.6295Durzlla.6295 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well you’re in luck OP, as it turns out Point Blank shot is already a damage decrease for the LB, especially at mid to long range.

    Removing the damage won’t fix stupid, and as other people said already I’m sure part of the problem is the conditioning other games have done, where your auto should only be used when there’s nothing else to use, which is just wrong in GW2.

    "But my children sing to me. Listen. They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family. As their mother, I have to grant them their wish."

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭

    Changing the effect of the skill to

    Range <600 : Knockback 600
    Range 600+ : Knockdown 1s

    Would solve the issue in most cases

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2019

    @Devildoc.6721 said:

    Here's an idea. It does only token damage unless you interrupt a skill with it. Then it deals more damage than it does now. Kind of a savage shot/punishing shot mechanic. It'd reward strategic use and punish random use in a way every ranger could visually see.

    And this is the problem I have with your entire thread, OP. This entire thread is based on the premise that amateur longbow rangers are pressing 4 on the instinct that it does more damage than an autoattack. What makes you think they'll actually notice the smaller number?

    If they'd been paying attention (hell, if they'd even bothered to read the tooltips for both abilities to begin with) the reality that PBS does less damage than a well-managed autoattack should already be obvious. The floating numbers over the enemy's head should also have made it obvious as well. I highly doubt that the kind of player you're complaining about will actually learn anything from the suggested more-damage-on-interrupt mechanic, as they're just not taking in all the information the game makes apparent about that skill to begin with.

  • Devildoc.6721Devildoc.6721 Member ✭✭✭

    So you're just going with "your average player is dumber than a box of rocks, and there's nothing we can do to help them, they will fail events unless you can carry them so enjoy your 2 hour waits to try again or anet nerfs the event" .. great.

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Changing the effect of the skill to

    Range <600 : Knockback 600
    Range 600+ : Knockdown 1s

    Would solve the issue in most cases

    That's even better than my idea. Let's go with that. It'd still need to be renamed though. My moneys still on Punishing Shot unless folks can come up with some good amalgamation of PBS + Punishing.

    @Devildoc.6721 said:
    So you're just going with "your average player is dumber than a box of rocks, and there's nothing we can do to help them, they will fail events unless you can carry them so enjoy your 2 hour waits to try again or anet nerfs the event" .. great.

    Has it been any other way? I'm sorry you seem to be an outlier in that every single ranger player you come across is bottom of the barrel so to speak.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    The game is already 7 years and the issue with point blank shot exist since release. If you really don't want people to use it abusively in PvE, you have to really make it "point blank" which mean melee range (just like updraft or illusionary wave). If you want to just make PvE a less frustrating place to play, the knockdown effect is a simple fix.

    Anet has stated before that skill functionality cannot be split between the modes. Only number splits are possible (base damage, power coefficient, cooldown, etc).

    And how could it possibly be wrong to have Point blank shot actually be "point blank" in all game modes? Excuse me but knocking back a target that's at 1200 or 900 (or even 600 range) range can't really be considered "point blank". Plus, having no weapon skill that move forcibly a target from it's spot isn't a necessicity, granted that rangers already have access to both fear and taunt via their pets, which make a knockdown a reasonable option. I don't think that replacing a knockback by a knockdown would make PvP worse than it is already right now, in fact it might make it a slightly better place to play.

  • Shadowcat.2680Shadowcat.2680 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038
    My post said nothing of the right or wrong of changing PBS; it merely informed that such a change would affect all modes. I find the premise of the OP's point rather silly (bad players don't pay attention to a skill so let's change the skill they're already not paying attention to).

    As to changing PBS in sPvP and WvW, knockdown instead of knockback would be far less value. Knockback has the potential to knock enemies out of capture circles, off cliffs, away from downed allies, etc.

    I don't see fear and taunt as relevant here. The meta sPvP/WvW builds don't use wolf, Beastly Warden, or Protect Me. Even if they did, fear and taunt (can be cleansed) are not nearly as valuable as knockback for positioning enemies.

  • WolandPL.4280WolandPL.4280 Member ✭✭

    If only ranger's longbow was interesting and fun to play... Right now the only 2 reasons people use longbows on rangers are:
    1. Rapid fire + sic'em in PvP
    2. Fashion Wars in open world PvE, since 99% of shortbows look wimpy.
    Ranger's longbow is slow, boring, has zero burst and no sustained damage and doesn't even pierce since Marksmanship trait rework, you know, as an extra middle finger whenever your cc gets wasted on trash mobs. So we, the poor, miserable people that chose rangers as their very first characters and still hold them dear, deep in their hearts, are spamming PBS because trolling other players temporarily disguises all the rage and sorrow inside us, that would otherwise take over our minds and drive us to depression.

    Please forgive us. Because we lost all hope of longbows becoming useful and fun long ago. But so many of those longbow skins look awesome.

  • Taelac.7036Taelac.7036 Member ✭✭✭

    @Devildoc.6721 said:
    So you're just going with "your average player is dumber than a box of rocks, and there's nothing we can do to help them, they will fail events unless you can carry them so enjoy your 2 hour waits to try again or anet nerfs the event" .. great.

    More with "Hey, can I show you a couple neat tricks you can do with that longbow?" being more helpful to both the inexperienced ranger and the people around them than "change the basic functionality of an important skill in a way that will be every bit as invisible to the inexperienced player as the information that would help them avoid that mistake already is."

    Good luck, have fun.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The slow Auto on LB gives you room to squeeze a PBS in there between the Auto without loosing much if any cast time thus giving you a tad more damage in that short period of time than just letting the auto go.
    Essentially giving you 3 attacks in 2 seconds rather than 2 attacks in 1,5 seconds.
    Same thing applies with Hunters shot too hence where the appearance of spamming skills comes from.
    In reality a lot of Rangers are just trying to get as many attacks in as they can between Long Range Shots due to LB auto having a longer cast time than most other weapons.

    A lot of Rangers, myself included use PBS to knock an enemy away to take advantage of the LB's bonus damage to ranged foes, further away = more damage and a lot of instances I've used this and screwed up someone elses attack is when they come out of knowhere, dashing in with a charge skill after I've popped my PBS.
    This results in the enemy being knocked away before they can land the hit.. annoying for them but not the fault of the Ranger as the Ranger often times doesn't even know they are there or about to charge in, we're not mind readers.
    I also use PBS as an interrupt as well, specially against things like Mordrem Thrashers to stop their healing AoE.

    If Rangers spamming PBS is such a common stereotype in Gw2 I have to wonder why so many people don't expect it and save their skills for after the target has been expectedly knocked away.
    If you expect it yet it keeps messing up your skills then as annoying as it is you have to take some blame for doing exactly the same skill spamming you're blaming the Ranger for.
    I've been in that situation as well.

    Taking the damage away from PBS isn't going to stop Rangers using it, they'll still go for the Range bonus and they'll still use it for interupts.
    I'm not saying there aren't bad Rangers in the game who use PBS poorly, we've all been there and there are times we do it intentionally to mess with people ;)
    Lets be honest anything that can get knock around is hardly something of vital importance that you absolutely need to kill to get some super rare loot, all those kinds of enemies can't be knocked around thanks to break bars so if it's getting knocked around then it's guaranteed to be just a trash mob.
    It's not that often any knockback or pull attacks can screw up something of actual significance.

    But if it's so common and expected then it's not like you can't do anything about it by using your own skills more carefully.
    My second character of choice is a pure melee Necromancer so I've dealt with Rangers knocking my targets away, nothing a good pull won't solve or chasing it down in Reaper Shroud.
    Only way I see this being a real problem is if your carelessly spamming your skills as well, or so focused min-maxing your DPS with your skill rotation you're not actually paying attention to the fight itself which would explain why glass melee zergo types still cant dodge and are usually downed half the time in much of the group content :P

    @WolandPL.4280 said:
    Ranger's longbow is slow, boring, has zero burst and no sustained damage and doesn't even pierce since Marksmanship trait rework.

    It does pierce if you trait for it.

  • ChronoPinoyX.7923ChronoPinoyX.7923 Member ✭✭✭

    I've never had issues with Point Blank as a melee.

    I mean the reason a lot of melees have what is basically a 'chase' attack is for the reasons like running enemies and enemy knockbacks. And considering how LB has terrible cooldowns on skills, I understand why some of them use it, especially since LB3 is a stealth move that does absolutely nothing PvE wise aside from break aggro so LB is already 1 skill too short on a Ranger.

  • Lazze.9870Lazze.9870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2019

    @Devildoc.6721 said:
    I never see the mesmer skill used in PVE events. I do see, and hear, a LOT of point blank shots. Trust me, I know the difference between Illusory wave, a level up explosion, and point blank shot. In virtually every case, it's a point blank shot. Second most often it's a warrior with peak performance using kick instead of or in addition to bolas. But that's not usually that often.

    You're blind then. Mesmers run around with greatsword in open pve A LOT. Whenever one is close to me, it's only a matter of time before it pushes something away from me. Except, it isn't just one target, it's the entire kitten mob.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lazze.9870 said:

    @Devildoc.6721 said:
    I never see the mesmer skill used in PVE events. I do see, and hear, a LOT of point blank shots. Trust me, I know the difference between Illusory wave, a level up explosion, and point blank shot. In virtually every case, it's a point blank shot. Second most often it's a warrior with peak performance using kick instead of or in addition to bolas. But that's not usually that often.

    You're blind then. Mesmers run around with greatsword in open pve A LOT. Whenever one is close to me, it's only a matter of time before it pushes something away from me. Except, it isn't just one target, it's the entire kitten mob.

    I can approve this. Pretty much every push skill in this game is misused by noobs. PBS and mesmer GS5 are just the most used ones.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭

    I dont use LB in open world cept to tag in massive metas. It took a while for me to overcome the fear of melee range as a ranger. I think thats what is wrong a lot of players see the range weapon as safe. And it is safer when soloing i mean how much more safe can you get than having a pet tank and you just stand there plucking away from a distance. But yeah its annoying in groups to have a mob go flying off right as you are gonna land a maul. Games like wow have hunters that stand at range with pets that tank all the agro, i think thats where the longbow mentality comes from. I know it did for me when i started playing. I was like oh cool i can be a hunter again!

    Then reality set in and i realized in order to do end game i have to learn how to dodge and play in melee.

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2019

    I main a ranger for 5+ years and know when to use PBS and when not to use it. I don't want it changed to a knockdown. Please leave it as it is.

    EDIT: yes, as a ranger main I, too, get annoyed when other rangers mis-use PBS. I still don't believe it is sufficient reason to change the function of the skill.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • SoV.5139SoV.5139 Member ✭✭✭

    Yes, please make it do zero so we can abuse the heck out of it and cc people from stealth.

  • sevenDEADLY.5281sevenDEADLY.5281 Member ✭✭✭

    You're not gonna see as many Mesmer's knockback waves because it has a short range. Much shorter than the 1200 range of the rest of Mesmer GS attacks. So while they're all standing at a distance it wont hit so they wont use it. Give the wave a 1200 range and Ill bet you anything you start seeing a bunch of mesmers hitting it on CD because it hits at the range they're standing at now.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Devildoc.6721 said:
    After years of watching rangers point blank shot out of their own barrage, I'm convinced it's the only way to make your average ranger see the skill as a tactical utility rather than attack they should spam off cooldown.

    Nothing is going to make these people realize that situational does not mean "every situation".
    You could have it deal direct damage to the player and they would still use it off cooldown. Look how many many Rangers melt themselves with their own Rapid Fire when a reflect pops up.
    This low IQ play is unfortunately endemic to the class.

  • Gabrya.6297Gabrya.6297 Member ✭✭
    edited June 27, 2019

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    You could have it deal direct damage to the player and they would still use it off cooldown. Look how many many Rangers melt themselves with their own Rapid Fire when a reflect pops up.
    This low IQ play is unfortunately endemic to the class.*

    *to the longbow(on ranger), FTFY ;) .

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gabrya.6297 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    You could have it deal direct damage to the player and they would still use it off cooldown. Look how many many Rangers melt themselves with their own Rapid Fire when a reflect pops up.
    This low IQ play is unfortunately endemic to the class.*

    *to the longbow(on ranger), FTFY ;) .

    No.... but if that makes you feel better....

  • Gabrya.6297Gabrya.6297 Member ✭✭

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    @Gabrya.6297 said:

    @mindcircus.1506 said:

    You could have it deal direct damage to the player and they would still use it off cooldown. Look how many many Rangers melt themselves with their own Rapid Fire when a reflect pops up.
    This low IQ play is unfortunately endemic to the class.*

    *to the longbow(on ranger), FTFY ;) .

    No.... but if that makes you feel better....

    that's a bit insulting all the ranger men....

    That's not because the longbow is really bad design that the class is braindead...look at the warrior with the rifle its even worse in berseker spec ^^
    Some weapons are braindead on every profession and that don't make the whole class dumb...okay warrior is maybe not a good example but still the revenant hammer etc...

  • KeyOrion.9506KeyOrion.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    I had a real fun time with Point Blank Shot on third floor of SMC, and in Edge of the Mist. If you get near a ledge, I like having the option of pushing you over that ledge.

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