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[lore discussion] Conflict over Aurene's change


EdwinLi.1284

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So there is been one thing bugging me that is known to be a plot that happens a lot in storylines....

Will there be a new Enemy faction born from Pact soldiers that split off from the Pact because of the fear for Aurene become a new Elder Dragon?

The Pact was formed to defeat and stop Elder Dragons and many joined out of duty, honor, and hope while some did so out of hatred, revenge, and self interests.

I fear we may see a conflict in the future born from the Pact splitting up into a new enemy faction that may end up turning some friends into enemies because of their beliefs and personal feelings about Elder Dragons along with the scars left by the other Elder Dragon's actions.

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There were suggestions as far back as Season 2 that some people would want to see Glint's egg / scion dead, even having Canach suggest destroying the egg in Season 2. They had also established the potential of a fallout for when we discovered we shouldn't kill anymore Elder Dragons. But like all civil conflict plots it ended up joining those set ups that got swept under the rug and forgotten, just like the sylvari racism plot from S2 finale / HoT.

By the point of War Eternal, it seems like everyone and their supremely racist grandmother loves Aurene and knows her to be the one true savior and messiah (aka literal crystal dragon jesus).

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@EdwinLi.1284 said:

The Pact was formed to defeat and stop Elder Dragons and many joined out of duty, honor, and hope while some did so out of hatred, revenge, and self interests.

The pact was formed as a fusion between the three orders of Tyria. Stopping the threat from the Elder Dragons has been their common goal, but the means are very fundamentally different.

Vigil: The Vigil is a military order dedicated to fighting the Elder Dragons and their minions by force of armsWhisperers: They work behind the scenes to safeguard the world against the rise of the Elder DragonsDurmand Piory: The Durmand Priory is one of three major multi-racial orders who are looking for ways to combat the Elder Dragons. They hope that intellect, or some lost piece of knowledge, can save the world from the rise of the dragons.

(all quotes from the wiki pages of the orders)

So the individuals disagreed even before the pact about the approach. Some wanted to find wasy to put them back to slumber. Some where looking for survival of the citizens and some wanted to fight them heads on. The battle of Claw Island made them go under one united banner. the commander has been leading them on a heads on approach at first. This nearly whiped out the pact, but also cause major harm to Tyria itself. The commander learned from his mistakes and I have no reason to see the common soldier to disagree with his decissions.

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Contrary to apparently everyone else here, I think it is entirely plausible.What seems reasonable to us internet-generation left-wing green-activist lore hippies is unreasonable idiocy to those far-right capitalist conservatives. Not to mention the Communist Party.Point is there are as many opinions as there are people, and Tyrian people seem very much too homogenous in their opinions on what should've been done. On the other hand, the Pact may just consist of likeminded people.So while I think it's possible that the Pact fractures, I find it more likely that some other formerly friendly party/group turns antagonistic towards the Commander and Gang. Like the Blood Legion, or the Consortium, or any other group that has expressed differing views to how we handle things.

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@mercury ranique.2170 said:

@"EdwinLi.1284" said:

The Pact was formed to defeat and stop Elder Dragons and many joined out of duty, honor, and hope while some did so out of hatred, revenge, and self interests.

The pact was formed as a fusion between the three orders of Tyria. Stopping the threat from the Elder Dragons has been their common goal, but the means are very fundamentally different.

Vigil: The Vigil is a military order dedicated to fighting the Elder Dragons and their minions by force of armsWhisperers: They work behind the scenes to safeguard the world against the rise of the Elder DragonsDurmand Piory: The Durmand Priory is one of three major multi-racial orders who are looking for ways to combat the Elder Dragons. They hope that intellect, or some lost piece of knowledge, can save the world from the rise of the dragons.

(all quotes from the wiki pages of the orders)

So the individuals disagreed even before the pact about the approach. Some wanted to find wasy to put them back to slumber. Some where looking for survival of the citizens and some wanted to fight them heads on. The battle of Claw Island made them go under one united banner. the commander has been leading them on a heads on approach at first. This nearly whiped out the pact, but also cause major harm to Tyria itself. The commander learned from his mistakes and I have no reason to see the common soldier to disagree with his decissions.

While yes the starting members are only from the Orders during the battle for Lion Arch during Zhaitan Arc, the Pact also recruited outside help and more new and familiar faces joined after the Pact's formation as well. In the Zhaitan Arc we see a lot of this as a lot of people we encountered before Zhaitan Arc decided to join after the Pact was formed or got recuited through connection within the Orders.

This increased once we got to the Mordy Arc when the Race leaders decided to make direct contribution by sending members of their forces to become part of the Pact as a"symbol" of support.

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While I'd say sure, it's possible, such a group would be a minority.

Yes some in thunderhead expressed concern after Aurene "branded" Caithe, but even then most seemed okay with the idea of a friendly elder dragon. A group that would be against Aurene would be a vast minority, as the leadership elements saw Aurene as a friendly force and not a threat.

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@"Kalavier.1097" said:While I'd say sure, it's possible, such a group would be a minority.

Yes some in thunderhead expressed concern after Aurene "branded" Caithe, but even then most seemed okay with the idea of a friendly elder dragon. A group that would be against Aurene would be a vast minority, as the leadership elements saw Aurene as a friendly force and not a threat.

You actually raise a great point there and that reminded me of how utterly stupid and out of character the cast's reactions were when that scene unfolded. No way they would have been upset about a clearly still sentient Caithe being branded they way they were. Especially Rytlock. Aurene saved their bums multiple times and suddenly he is like WOAH YOU EVIL?!

I think they completely subdued that flimsy story thread by showing us the Crystal Bloom and how they worship their new shiny dragon overlord though.

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@Blocki.4931 said:

@"Kalavier.1097" said:While I'd say sure, it's possible, such a group would be a minority.

Yes some in thunderhead expressed concern after Aurene "branded" Caithe, but even then most seemed okay with the idea of a friendly elder dragon. A group that would be against Aurene would be a vast minority, as the leadership elements saw Aurene as a friendly force and not a threat.

You actually raise a great point there and that reminded me of how utterly stupid and out of character the cast's reactions were when that scene unfolded. No way they would have been upset about a clearly still sentient Caithe being branded they way they were. Especially Rytlock. Aurene saved their bums multiple times and suddenly he is like WOAH YOU EVIL?!

I think they completely subdued that flimsy story thread by showing us the Crystal Bloom and how they worship their new shiny dragon overlord though.

It wasn't branding Caithe that gave the "woah you evil" reaction, but branding the rift - the very first act of Aurene crystallizing anything. And this wasn't the first time Dragon's Watch (outside of the Commander and Caithe) reacted such a way towards Aurene either. When she first showed up to battle the branded wyvern in Episode 1, Rytlock reacted with a "are you sure she's on our side still?" and when she ate Joko they had reacted in varying degrees of disgust/sickened and fear, with Canath even suspecting that Balthazar's magic may have made both Kralkatorrik and Aurene more aggressive than before.

It's an infrequently repeated theme for Dragondestiny's Edgewatch to question the... kindness of the scion of the Crystal Dragon. And imo, it was done well - perhaps could have been done one more time before her death, though, but still done enough to have been more than a completely subdued thread. In fact, this was even brought up in Season 2, when Canach suggested we destroy the egg; though it could have been brought up once or twice during HoT / Season 3 / PoF, imo, but it's harder to question the ferocity of an infant than an adolescent. Even if it is a dragon.

It wasn't until her death that they had finally put aside all "is she truly on our side?" questions. And it makes sense - only the Commander, Caithe, and Marjory had been around since she hatched, and Marjory wasn't around for any of those three S4 events, while the Commander never once questioned Aurene's friendliness towards them.

That said, they should have had more animosity from people outside our close compadres of DE/DW. As far as I'm aware, aside from the four aforementioned times of questioning Aurene (or the egg itself), while there are a couple times when the PC and friends wonder if others would be willing to accept Glint's scion (particularly in S2 and S3), there is only one dialogue in the entire game from a non-DE/DW member questioning Aurene's kindness to mortals, and that was an easily missable ambient dialogue in Pact Vanguard of Jahai Bluffs. They really should have made more mentions of Pact soldiers and other Tyrians questioning Aurene, and not leave it solely to Dragon's Watch. It would make sense for most Elonians to trust her due to Vlasts' 11 years of fighting Branded - even some Tyrian humans or sylvari (the former because Glint was a long-standing ally of humanity; the latter because both Aurene and sylvari hold origins of coming from Elder Dragons so there'd be relatability), but norn, asura, and especially non-olmakhan charr should have had animosity towards Aurene at least until All or Nothing's finale.

I think it would have been very fitting if Almorra had constantly insulted and threatened Aurene during Episode 4 and 5, due to the obvious reasons of Aurene being a crystal dragon, only to be saved by her (instead of turning her survival into a brief ambient dialogue joke of being rescued by dredge) becoming a bit of a humbling experience for Almorra.

All that said, the chances for all this is pretty much over and done with. We might get such with a future scion if we get a replacement for the other Elder Dragons as the lore has established us to need (but I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to retcon / ignore the established lore and make our crystal dragon jesus messiah Aurene the One True Elder Dragon; next up, the Crystal Bloom will be wearing crosses and going on crusades).

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@EdwinLi.1284 said:So there is been one thing bugging me that is known to be a plot that happens a lot in storylines....

Will there be a new Enemy faction born from Pact soldiers that split off from the Pact because of the fear for Aurene become a new Elder Dragon?

The Pact was formed to defeat and stop Elder Dragons and many joined out of duty, honor, and hope while some did so out of hatred, revenge, and self interests.

I fear we may see a conflict in the future born from the Pact splitting up into a new enemy faction that may end up turning some friends into enemies because of their beliefs and personal feelings about Elder Dragons along with the scars left by the other Elder Dragon's actions.

would be nice, like in swtor, two factions fight. so your toon could be evil char, or kind hearted loves all char. :P

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At least since the Joko Arc I've been waiting for more "variety of opinion", so to speak. Isn't it strange we never hear of any other guilds beside DE / DW? Aren't they supposed to be a thing in this world? All the time we spent in Elona, far away from Tyria, I would have thought some other people had tried to be famous heroes themselves. We saw this a little bit with Braham in LS3, but why was that the only try?

If everyone is just very, very reasonable and understanding and totally content with fighting for whatever we want at any given moment, that's nice and makes it easier for us, sure. But usually, people are not that reasonable all the time. I don't really see a major good vs evil conflict here, but I'm still waiting for other NPC guilds or some wannabe heroes to appear and try to solve things differently / become famous themselves. Especially at times when DW and the PC are far away.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:There were suggestions as far back as Season 2 that some people would want to see Glint's egg / scion dead, even having Canach suggest destroying the egg in Season 2. They had also established the potential of a fallout for when we discovered we shouldn't kill anymore Elder Dragons. But like all civil conflict plots it ended up joining those set ups that got swept under the rug and forgotten, just like the sylvari racism plot from S2 finale / HoT.

By the point of War Eternal, it seems like everyone and their supremely racist grandmother loves Aurene and knows her to be the one true savior and messiah (aka literal crystal dragon jesus).

Aurine Aurine Dragon full of Christ XD

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:It's an infrequently repeated theme for Dragondestiny's Edgewatch to question the... kindness of the scion of the Crystal Dragon. And imo, it was done well -

I agree with that and think a lot of that had to do with Aurine lacking her own way of communicating with us as wellUntil Caithe allowed herself to be fused.. branded.. connected :S to Aurine there was no way Aurine could communicate with us outside of visions.I don't blame the other members of Dragons Watch for being skeptical about Aurine.

They didn't bond with her like We and Caithe did, they didn't help raise her either.Their only real experience with her was in combat situations and not once could she speak and share her feelings and opinions with any of them.It's completely fair for them to distrust her under those circumstances and the more powerful and Elder Dragonlike she gets the more doubt and mistrust would fester because they couldn't know her intentions nor was there any way for them get a good reading on them.

Speaking through Caithe and Sacrificing herself was enough to convince everyone she was truly good.. and it was done well imo too.

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I think Almorra ranting and raging against Aurene would've felt awkward, out of place, and forced.

She spent most of the time in thunderhead at the fort itself, you can find her hanging out on the side-path into the main fort area where the north meta is. In Jahai Almorra spent her time focusing on killing the death-branded Shatterer.

Even then, yelling at Aurene when the commander shows intense trust would possibly cause morale issues and distrust. Almorra may want revenge against Kralkatorrik but she's a very smart leader and understands that Morale is important to any army, and such a large joint-force operation requires every group to trust each other. If the sunspears trust the commander, but don't know Almorra and see her in conflict with the commander (even just verbal), it could alter the relationship between the sunspears and the vigil.

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@"Kalavier.1097" said:I think Almorra ranting and raging against Aurene would've felt awkward, out of place, and forced.

She spent most of the time in thunderhead at the fort itself, you can find her hanging out on the side-path into the main fort area where the north meta is. In Jahai Almorra spent her time focusing on killing the death-branded Shatterer.

Even then, yelling at Aurene when the commander shows intense trust would possibly cause morale issues and distrust. Almorra may want revenge against Kralkatorrik but she's a very smart leader and understands that Morale is important to any army, and such a large joint-force operation requires every group to trust each other. If the sunspears trust the commander, but don't know Almorra and see her in conflict with the commander (even just verbal), it could alter the relationship between the sunspears and the vigil.

IMO, your entire argument for why it would feel "awkward, out of place, and forced" is more or less why it would work. Though she wouldn't be "ranting and raging". I said "insulting and threatening" - there's a stark difference, and it's possible our mental images could be different due to the associations of those words. I'm not saying she should act towards Aurene the way she does towards the Shatterer and Kralkatorrik, but more an in-between of that and Canach's reactions when Aurene does questionable things.

Sure, she's a smart leader, but emotions tend to make logical people function irrationally, and intense hatred for something would definitely qualify as an emotion to make people act irrational. She might have been focused on killing the Shatterer in the open world, but she could have easily gotten a chance to get close to Aurene during the first instance, which would be their very first meeting, and before Almorra had a chance to see the Commander's trust in Aurene. As for in THP, she literally does nothing in the map, and all that would be needed is a dialogue box (which they didn't even bother making) where she questions Aurene and makes a threat solely for the Commander's ears. A "if you're wrong, I'll be first in line to put her down" kind of threat, if not a "I don't trust her to be different" feel of a threat. Similarly in the final instance, she was present and could have had just a couple brief lines towards that same concept.

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I'm leaning towards the emergence of the omlakhan, the goremonger, and the brothers logan and rytlok that we are going to see the fight taken to putting the ascalonian ghosts to rest and dismantling of the flame legion. Plus the goremonger telling the current charr haters to take the fight to the real enemy it would probably help smooth things over it worked for rytlok and logan lets go kill someone else instead :)

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  • 2 months later...

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Sure, she's a smart leader, but emotions tend to make logical people function irrationally, and intense hatred for something would definitely qualify as an emotion to make people act irrational.

This is an older comment/thread but I kinda have jump on this a bit.

The logic you're applying here would be true for a normal person, or even lower ranks in a military. However, a military leader of Almorra's caliber/rank can keep a lid on their emotions in all situations, no matter how stressful it is. Leaders that don't learn this ability don't stay in that position for long because it's dangerous for everyone involved in their decision making. Logan learned this exact ability between the events of the novel and present day, which is why he is now the Marshal of the Pact, and he's earned it.

High ranking military leaders that are worth their position have slight psychopathic tendencies in a way that their emotions are muted. And it's a completely normal state of being for them.

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