Dragonhunter's Bow requires attention — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Dragonhunter's Bow requires attention

DH with a longbow I think is the worst spec weapon in game. I'm speaking with experience as I main DH bow build both in pve and pvp. The damage is clearly underwhelming (Except for the second skill) and the range is weird, one skill has 1500 and the rest 1200? Since there aren't many specs with Longbow as a weapon I'm gonna compare this to a suitable rival i.e Ranger with long bow. I'm gonna compare all 5 skills side by side so lets get down to it:

1. Auto attack: Ranger's auto attack gains damage as the distance grows, DH has that too with "Pure of sight trait" Additionally DH's arrows bounce so that's good but the range is 300m less compared to ranger.
2. Second skill: Trueshot, is a single hit skill with good range but very predictable animation and very likely to miss your target in PVP. Ranger's rapid fire is a 12 hit skill with vulnerability add-on in every hit. 12 hits means you are guaranteed to land something and get the conditions on your target unlike trueshot, granted the cooldown makes up for it but even then a successful hit despite being a crit wont hit more than 4k with around 1-5 might or less which is pretty bad.
3. Third skill: Deflecting shot, Cast time is the same as ranger (instant) Skill animation is very obvious (yes its cool), projectile speed is terrible AND you have to manually aim it unlike ranger which is a simple lock on and fire. The projectile block is good I guess but its hard to use it that way because it has no tracking and in pvp no range class is gonna fire at you while standing still. Oh the range is inferior too.
4. Fourth Skill: Symbol of energy, Symbol skill is good as it follows the guardian theme but why vigor?? If I'm using a bow to hit my targets I'm gonna be far from them, How does the vigor help me at all? am I supposed to fire it on my feet? if so then why give it any damage? Oh and range is inferior too.
5. Fifth skill: Hunter's ward, Great skill for pvp, the chain's look gorgeous and the sound effects are lovely. Damage is ok so no complaints there BUT the range and cooldown make it a serious pain to use not to mention you have to channel it all the way to make use of the rings which is dangerous and can be easily interrupted in pvp. Ranger has a better CD on 5th skill along with lots of cripple and ok cool down which can be reduced via traits. DH LB cannot do that because there are no traits for it.

In conclusion DH bow has 0 value in pve (Sceptre outclasses it in terms of damage) and its only good for shooting from a safe distance which is again inferior to ranger or deadeye. Only reason I use it because I like the blue arrows and the fact I have Pharus. And what synergy do ground based traps share with LB? Maybe you can use it to create a protection area in pvp where players cannot charge at you recklessly but even then most builds only use one trap(test of faith) because rest are very easy to dodge or negate completely, I mean apart from the initial damage test of faith is also useless because you can simply dodge out of it or stand inside. Hell even the elite skill dragon maw can be cheesed with a single stability boon making the barrier useless. I guess traps weren't meant to nuke so that's fine but at least give them some form of damage overtime or hard cc? make them punishable for players who trigger it. But seriously give us some speed/range/trait for Longbow DH. Make it at least decent and an alternative option to other range guardian weapons. Thank you for reading this far.

Comments

  • Assic.2746Assic.2746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019
    1. Auto attack: Ranger's auto attack gains damage as the distance grows, DH has that too with "Pure of sight trait" Additionally DH's arrows bounce so that's good but the range is 300m less compared to ranger.

    Pure of Sight If all longbow skills had 1500 range then this trait could have additional damage boost 20-25% for 900-1500 range. Which would improve the damage of longbow but not scepter.

    1. Fourth Skill: Symbol of energy, Symbol skill is good as it follows the guardian theme but why vigor?? If I'm using a bow to hit my targets I'm gonna be far from them, How does the vigor help me at all? am I supposed to fire it on my feet? if so then why give it any damage? Oh and range is inferior too.

    To me it seems like Symbol of Energy is kinda underwheling because you have to aim at your feet almost every time. This skill could be similar to Rifle Butt - warrior's rifle skills which pushes back an enemy. A melee attack which knocks back or dazes enemies and puts symbol of energy below our feet.

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭

    Make symbol of energy a backwards leap that leaves a symbol where you started, like acid bomb. 1/2s evade.

    what DH LB needs is something defensive

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:
    Make symbol of energy a backwards leap that leaves a symbol where you started, like acid bomb. 1/2s evade.

    what DH LB needs is something defensive

    An interesting concept. LB 4 could do something like cause a low damage strike immediately on top of you (that applies aoe burn like it currently does), then leap to target location and create a symbol of energy where you land. Would be a unique defensive skill and would really help LB's sustain.

    I think originally, LB3 was supposed to be a defensive skill since with Heavy Light, you can punish people who get too close to you and knock them back allowing you to control positioning in the fight but it doesn't function like a defensive skill at all if you don't take heavy light. This is why people say that LB doesn't feel like a complete weapon without Heavy Light, and thus the knockback on LB 3 should be made baseline.

  • HawkXtream.1538HawkXtream.1538 Member ✭✭
    edited April 30, 2019

    It's very unlikely they will increase the Bow2 damage, I hope they will decrease the cooldown and remove the root. And the range increase is a bit weird because if you enter the combat with Bow2 at max range then realised that all other skills u have are out of range. But it is good to down a fleeing player.

    As for Bow4, I remember they design DH for range support. So Bow4 is more like supporting teammate rather than damage.

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HawkXtream.1538 said:
    It's very unlikely they will increase the Bow2 damage, I hope they will decrease the cooldown and remove the root. And the range increase is a bit weird because if you enter the combat with Bow2 at max range then realised that all other skills u have are out of range. But it is good to down a fleeing player.

    As for Bow4, I remember they design DH for range support. So Bow4 is more like supporting teammate rather than damage.

    True, but keep in mind that due to the range buffer, bow's auto attack is actually much larger than 1200 range. I remember testing this. If you have a static target, flat ground, DH's auto attack on LB will hit them at around 1550-1600 units away which is a pretty massive range buffer. This is probably a bug though since range buffers for other weapons aren't quite that large.

  • Xervite.5493Xervite.5493 Member ✭✭

    Its kinda funny how most dragons with their whacky hitboxes dont even trigger its traps

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    Symbol of energy needs to be completely redesigned since guardian relies on enemies being in their symbols to deal damage. Longbow also gives zero retal and guardian relies on retal to deal damage.

    Overall, the weapon is MASSIVELY outdated.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Symbol of energy needs to be completely redesigned since guardian relies on enemies being in their symbols to deal damage. Longbow also gives zero retal and guardian relies on retal to deal damage.

    Overall, the weapon is MASSIVELY outdated.

    While I'm not sure a complete redesign is warranted I have always thought that Vigor was an odd choice for a boon., granted all of the guardian symbols depend on the guardian and any allies being inside the symbol to be given the boon but Vigor always felt like a "We used everything else that we are willing to make available what else can we use?" type of choice being it felt very random and not something that really builds any strong sense of synergy, but that's just my take on it.

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    Slow travel time, low uptime, wrong damage(condi on a power weapon), boon requires you to be inside it but it's a long ranged weapon. Just makes no sense and goes against how guardian does DPS now as well.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Symbol of energy needs to be completely redesigned since guardian relies on enemies being in their symbols to deal damage. Longbow also gives zero retal and guardian relies on retal to deal damage.

    Overall, the weapon is MASSIVELY outdated.

    While I'm not sure a complete redesign is warranted I have always thought that Vigor was an odd choice for a boon., granted all of the guardian symbols depend on the guardian and any allies being inside the symbol to be given the boon but Vigor always felt like a "We used everything else that we are willing to make available what else can we use?" type of choice being it felt very random and not something that really builds any strong sense of synergy, but that's just my take on it.

    It doesn't need to be changed. It's actually well thought out.
    Vigor is a buff to your allies in melee or to yourself should you be forced to fight in melee.
    You take risks, you're rewarded. I enjoy this skill a lot.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:
    While I'm not sure a complete redesign is warranted I have always thought that Vigor was an odd choice for a boon., granted all of the guardian symbols depend on the guardian and any allies being inside the symbol to be given the boon but Vigor always felt like a "We used everything else that we are willing to make available what else can we use?" type of choice being it felt very random and not something that really builds any strong sense of synergy, but that's just my take on it.

    This is pretty true. You can see from Firebrand Axe that they just gave up on boons in symbols alltogether. It doesn't have one.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Slow travel time, low uptime, wrong damage(condi on a power weapon), boon requires you to be inside it but it's a long ranged weapon. Just makes no sense and goes against how guardian does DPS now as well.

    I think what the devs were thinking is you lay it on your trap then pull the enemies to it. Needless to say, this design no longer works.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    This is pretty true. You can see from Firebrand Axe that they just gave up on boons in symbols alltogether. It doesn't have one.

    Actually the FB axe gives Fury now, you may have missed that update but it was back on Dec 11 of last year

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Good luck!

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RUNICBLACK.7630 said:

    @Yannir.4132 said:
    This is pretty true. You can see from Firebrand Axe that they just gave up on boons in symbols alltogether. It doesn't have one.

    Actually the FB axe gives Fury now, you may have missed that update but it was back on Dec 11 of last year

    Yeah, that's how much I play Firebrand in PvE these days. :lol: Only been using Mace/Sword in PvP.
    I did the Elegy collection last week, so I have a Grieving armor set now. Maybe I'll give it a whirl.

  • Alex.4982Alex.4982 Member ✭✭

    Fingers crossed for a rework similar to what Rev, Beserker, and Scrapper all got. Or even just a weapon rework like they did with guardian staff

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alex.4982 said:
    Fingers crossed for a rework similar to what Rev, Beserker, and Scrapper all got. Or even just a weapon rework like they did with guardian staff

    Considering that both herald and berserker are worse after the update, if Anet is thinking of any rework of DH, no thanks. Just buff some outdated traps and traits. Nothing else.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    Only reason I use bow is #4 and range
    #4 is good because you can either use it offensively at range and defensively in melee.
    So it help allies in melee, and can also help yourself if you come in melee too. Or you can lose the damage part to bolster your own defense at range.
    #2 and #3 are the ones needing a little up.

  • jaif.3518jaif.3518 Member ✭✭

    I only recently started playing my guardian full tilt (I dabbled a bit with burn builds in past years). I think bow #3 is too weak for a skill shot. If I were to make one tweak, I would have a successful hit result in a retaliation buff so it meshes well with other guardian traits.

    -Jeff

  • Engal.6359Engal.6359 Member ✭✭

    @Xervite.5493 said:
    DH with a longbow I think is the worst spec weapon in game. I'm speaking with experience as I main DH bow build both in pve and pvp.

    Renegade shortbow wants to have a talk with you...

  • Llethander.3972Llethander.3972 Member ✭✭✭

    DH longbow skill #2 got nerfed into the dirt - kinda like what happened to Deadeye Rifle's "sniper" shot - because people whine when they get hit by a single-shot, high-damage skill and take a boat-load of damage even though they've built glass cannon.

    Heaven forbid glass cannon builds should be punished for not having taken any defensive options.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 29, 2019

    @Alex.4982 said:
    Fingers crossed for a rework similar to what Rev, Beserker, and Scrapper all got. Or even just a weapon rework like they did with guardian staff.

    Swap traps to a system alike wards like gw1 elementalist had.

    Buffing bow while inside ward, punishing enemies coughtbon wards, so many kewl mechanics could had been done.

    Use f1 to pull and tount and try to force to fight ur opponents in wards.

    Wards defense, offense, support.

  • Crystal Black.8190Crystal Black.8190 Member ✭✭✭

    Auto attack should cripple by default for a short duration and increase the duration if a second target is hit. If you hit bosses and champions your only source is the passive process of the f1 skill.

    Skill 2 is just clunky to use because it roots you for quite some time and isn't rewarding damage wise. Also the range is weird compared to all other skill ranges of the bow.

    Skill 3 feels useless without heavy light, but heavy light doesn't feel worth taking compared to the other grandmaster traits. It should be baseline or the effect changed. The projectile block should become a reflect. Also it is hard to actually block projectiles with it. Projectile protection on other ranged weapons like deadeyes rifle, revs hammer or druids staff is a lot easier to make use of.

    Skill 4's goal is what exactly? It applies burning which might fit the guard theme, but bow is a power weapon. Also what exactly prevents your target from walking out of the symbol on their way to attack you? A symbol that grows in size like other fields would be nice so targets are longer in it than the initial damage tick or a movement impairing condition like immob or chill.

    Skill 5 is nice if it hits but for pve the damage still feels underwhelming and the final effect would need a break bar damage effect. In PvP the skills animation is so obvious that you either get interrupted or it is dodged. Moving a part of its final impact damage to the 4 previous ticks would not totally invalidate the skill if it is dodged of interrupted.

    What bow also misses it some form of disengage skill to keep enemies at range once they are in melee range. Ranger has a knock back and in is/stealth to reposition. Deadeye has stealths and knockbacks on its elite specs utility's and a shadow step backwards on the rifle. Thiefs and rangers shortbow have a leap backwards.

  • Largo Cifer.3495Largo Cifer.3495 Member ✭✭
    edited May 29, 2019

    Longbow 2 is okay with the cd it has. #3 needs cc without the trait, #4 can be given a cripple or slow effect with the current effects and #5 needs a cd reduction to 35. With these changes lb on dh can be considered decent. Also, some of the traits can be looked at cos alot of the minor and major dh traits are bad.

    "All the talent in this world won't take you anywhere without your Teammates
    Trust them, Res them, Support them
    "

  • RisenHowl.2419RisenHowl.2419 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2019

    I mentioned it above, but what about this for lb4:

    Target up to 900 range, fire an unblockable arrow that creates a symbol at that location. Evade 1/2s backwards 600 units.

    Synergizes with LB2 and gives a defensive tool.

    Decrease the CD on LB5 to 40s, reduce casting time to 2s. This isn't usable in any game mode as is and badly needs love

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2019

    auto-attack should be faster attack speed and projectile speed
    2 just shouldn't root you in place.
    3 should give you aegis in aoe
    4 should be like symbol of punishment, low cd high aoe power damage
    5 should be 20 second cooldown

  • Alehin.3746Alehin.3746 Member ✭✭✭

    DH's longbow is balanced currently.
    The damage/cooldown from trueshot is fine.
    People only want deflect shot to have base knockback because they want the damage from Big Game Hunter and that wouldn't be very healthy for the game imo.
    Puncture Shot and Symbol of Energy could use projectile speed, not attackspeed, but it's pretty fair the way they are currently.
    Hunter's Ward is "slow" and have a "long cooldown" because it's a very powerful skill, it's a 5 seconds imobilize that cancels actions of the enemy tries to walk out of it without stability and if you don't catch them, they will at least burn one or two dodges, giving you opportunity to hit them with trueshot and puncture shot. Or they could reduce the ring duration from 5 to 2 seconds and reduce the cooldown accordingly.

    But if you guys are having so much trouble against everything and think ranger's longbow is much better, try playing it instead of guardian.

  • Karma.3064Karma.3064 Member ✭✭

    Honestly my biggest issue with pretty much all of Guard's ranged weapons is the fact that the tracking on the auto attacks are kitten. Fix that and i'd be a happy boy. lol

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Alehin.3746 said:
    DH's longbow is balanced currently.
    The damage/cooldown from trueshot is fine.
    People only want deflect shot to have base knockback because they want the damage from Big Game Hunter and that wouldn't be very healthy for the game imo.
    Puncture Shot and Symbol of Energy could use projectile speed, not attackspeed, but it's pretty fair the way they are currently.
    Hunter's Ward is "slow" and have a "long cooldown" because it's a very powerful skill, it's a 5 seconds imobilize that cancels actions of the enemy tries to walk out of it without stability and if you don't catch them, they will at least burn one or two dodges, giving you opportunity to hit them with trueshot and puncture shot. Or they could reduce the ring duration from 5 to 2 seconds and reduce the cooldown accordingly.

    But if you guys are having so much trouble against everything and think ranger's longbow is much better, try playing it instead of guardian.

    Dude, this ain’t 2015 okay? DH is garbage in sPvP so is LB. There is a reason no one plays DH. And we are not dealing with silver struggles here.

    I have to agree with Otto here in particular on Hunter's Ward in that the amount of time that you have to channel it for it to pay off with the final damage and getting the Hunter's Mark is beyond unreasonable( and this isn't even mentioning how much they cut the final damage by over half) 2 3/4 seconds is given for any opponent to avoid the effect(really who even needs a dodge for this you can just walk out of it) . The number of skills that this weapon will force you to a root in place is unbelievably foolish particularly for a class that has mobility issues to begin with (glaring lack of disengage skills). I have used DH in PvP and WvW the ONLY TIME anybody gets caught by Hunter's Ward is when they are already stuck in close melee combat a you are firing from a distance and catch them unaware, there it is useful but outside of those instances it is all to easy to dodge or even sometimes walk out of it

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2019

    April 19, 2016
    Hunter's Ward: This skill now creates barriers on enemies only if they are struck by the final attack.
    Barriers created by this skill now only stop enemies who have been marked (struck) by the final attack.
    The final attack damage has been increased by 33%.
    Ring duration has been reduced from 6 seconds to 5 seconds.
    The cooldown of this skill has been reduced from 45 seconds to 40 seconds.
    Added a red ring for enemies so they can be identified as hostile.
    Hunter's Ward

    2¾ Activation time 45 Recharge time

    ProfessionGuardian tango icon 20px.png Guardian (skill list)SpecializationDragonhunter tango icon 20px.png DragonhunterWeapon Longbow Weapon slot 5 Game link[&BqR3AAA=]

    Form your arrow into a barrier and deal damage at the location.

    Damage.png Initial Damage: 96 (0.25)?
    _ Damage.png Final Impact Damage: 770 (2.0)?_
    Crippled.png Cripple (2s): -50% Movement Speed
    Miscellaneous effect.png Number of Impacts: 4
    Miscellaneous effect.png Maximum Number of Barriers: 5
    Duration.png Ring Duration: 5 seconds
    Radius.png Radius: 360
    Range.png Range: 1,200
    — In-game description [?]

    November 17, 2015
    Hunter's Ward: Removed an erronious icon that appeared on opponents when using this ability.
    Reduced the visual noise on the effects associated with this skill.
    Fixed an issue that caused the damage to not be applied in certain skill queueing scenarios.
    Original version
    Hunter's Ward

    2¾ Activation time 45 Recharge time

    ProfessionGuardian tango icon 20px.png Guardian (skill list)SpecializationDragonhunter tango icon 20px.png DragonhunterWeapon Longbow Weapon slot 5 Game link[&BqR3AAA=]

    Form your arrow into a barrier and deal damage at the location.

    Damage.png Initial Damage: 205
    _ Damage.png Final Impact Damage: 1,641_
    Crippled.png Cripple (2s): -50% Movement Speed
    Crippled.png Cripple (2s): -50% Movement Speed
    Miscellaneous effect.png Number of Impacts: 4
    Miscellaneous effect.png Maximum Number of Barriers: 5
    Duration.png Ring Duration: 6 seconds
    Radius.png Radius: 360
    — In-game description [?]

    Ok looking at the history for this skill, the change for the barrier(Hunter's Mark) is obvious but they state that the Final Impact damage was improved by 33% on April 16 2016 but the listed Wiki damage (and my testing it in the PvP lobby matches that ) show it actually being cut by more than half but there isn't any documentation showing when the damage was reduced prior to the patch that it is listed as increasing on does anyone remember when the reduction happened.
    Update:
    I just looked through all of the patch notes from Nov 17 2015 to April 19 2016 and I couldn't find any mention of a damage reduction to Hunter's Ward on any of them my only thoughts are that there was a earlier reduction that wasn't recorded or that the earlier damage number was wrong it just seems rather odd that there wasn't some comment on it.

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭

    I find it pretty balanced myself. The only QoL I would like to see is projectile speed increased by a wee bit for all skills. As is Symbol of Energy is pretty much restricted to being dropped at your feet, downs, or CCed enemies due to long travel time. That's completely fine but I think it would just give it a little more reliability if it could land on a moving target better. I think 25% would be reasonable. Make it feel a little less sluggish to use without it feeling like fighting a chain gun with arrows.

    No longer playing the game due to PvP being abandon.

  • RUNICBLACK.7630RUNICBLACK.7630 Member ✭✭✭

    Just curious how you find it balanced , with True Shot and Hunter's Ward rooting you , and most of the other classes only have one skill within their long range weapons that forces them to be rooted for the attack (case in point Ranger only has it on Barrage) and all of those skills reward the forced rooting with fairly large damage outputs(whereas both True Shot and Hunter's Ward are below average due to inherent flaws) and some classes have none of their long range weapons skills root them. This combat system as it stands depends on a players attention to their surroundings and mobility, a weapon that severely restricts mobility without a large reward for that risk isn't doing its job properly.

    Add to this that if you look at the original design of the DH's longbows damage output it was design to reward a Power build then less than a year later they switch it and pretty much gutted that and have been trying to force it into a Condition/Hybrid build but it hasn't been very successful when you look at the drop off of players still using the Longbow in most of the different game modes(I'm not saying it can't be used what I'm saying is you see it a great deal less on guardian players than you used to). I'm not sure where they want to go with the class but frankly I'm not sure they do either, I'm hoping that we will see a strong revaluation in the future for the guardian as a whole.

    Life before Death
    Strength before Weakness
    Journey before Destination
    stormlightarchive.wikia.com/wiki/Immortal_Words

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2019

    @Alehin.3746 said:
    DH's longbow is balanced currently.

    Almost. Not quite.

    The damage/cooldown from trueshot is fine.

    Yeah, in WvW it is. They should port the WvW version of trueshot over to pvp.

    People only want deflect shot to have base knockback because they want the damage from Big Game Hunter and that wouldn't be very healthy for the game imo.

    No, people want LB3 to have baseline knockback because without baseline knockback, LB is an incomplete weapon. You could take the current Heavy Light trait, remove the stability on knockback completely, and have it ONLY add knockback to LB3, and people would still take it because that's how important it is for the weapon. This is bad design because it means that if you run LB, you're forced into taking Heavy Light. Also, what would be wrong with someone being able to deal a bit more damage with BGH and have knockback on LB3? It wouldn't be imbalanced. Further, if they DID add baseline knockback to LB3, they could redo Heavy Light and make it competitive with BGH. It would overall be a buff, yes, but not an overpowered change.

    Puncture Shot and Symbol of Energy could use projectile speed, not attackspeed, but it's pretty fair the way they are currently.

    Agreed. I'd also go so far as to say nerf the range buffer on auto attack. It seriously hits sitting targets at like 1650 units away or something ridiculous like that even though it's only listed as 1200 range.

    Hunter's Ward is "slow" and have a "long cooldown" because it's a very powerful skill, it's a 5 seconds imobilize that cancels actions of the enemy tries to walk out of it without stability and if you don't catch them, they will at least burn one or two dodges, giving you opportunity to hit them with trueshot and puncture shot. Or they could reduce the ring duration from 5 to 2 seconds and reduce the cooldown accordingly.

    It's really not that powerful. It has SO many counterplay options:
    1. As soon as you see a DH casting this skill, port to them and burst them.
    2. Pressure DH for 2.5 seconds, then dodge at the last moment to avoid the root.
    3. blind DH in the last moment so the ward doesn't land
    4. Simply dodge out of the aoe early on and continue pressuring the DH
    5. Literally apply 1 stack of stability and walk out. You can also get hit by the ward, and immediately hit a stun-break and walk out since there is a minimum time to get repeatedly CCed by the ward.
    6. Teleport out of the ward. You will get knocked down but will still end up outside of the ward.
    7. Let the ward encase you, and be ready with an interrupt, counter-burst, reflect (if they use trueshot) or invuln as soon as the DH ports in to follow-up. Honestly the damage from it is not impressive, you can eat it and still be in good shape.
    It's also a situational attack. The best time and pretty much only time you use it effectively is when you see 2+ opponents fighting an ally far away, and you open with this skill. Overall this skill needs a bit of love in the form of usability. A lower cast time (2.25s, match ranger's LB5) would be a good start. It could also use a lower cooldown of 35 or maybe even 30 seconds, or perhaps a heavy CD reduction if you cancel the cast, since this skill could have some value in baiting an opponent but currently its CD is too long to do something like that.

  • Alehin.3746Alehin.3746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    @Alehin.3746 said:
    DH's longbow is balanced currently.

    Almost. Not quite.

    The damage/cooldown from trueshot is fine.

    Yeah, in WvW it is. They should port the WvW version of trueshot over to pvp.

    Yeah that would be cool, i'm still not sure why they haven't done it.

    People only want deflect shot to have base knockback because they want the damage from Big Game Hunter and that wouldn't be very healthy for the game imo.

    No, people want LB3 to have baseline knockback because without baseline knockback, LB is an incomplete weapon. You could take the current Heavy Light trait, remove the stability on knockback completely, and have it ONLY add knockback to LB3, and people would still take it because that's how important it is for the weapon. This is bad design because it means that if you run LB, you're forced into taking Heavy Light. Also, what would be wrong with someone being able to deal a bit more damage with BGH and have knockback on LB3? It wouldn't be imbalanced. Further, if they DID add baseline knockback to LB3, they could redo Heavy Light and make it competitive with BGH. It would overall be a buff, yes, but not an overpowered change.

    It doesn't not make the weapon "incomplete", it's just not as good as people want it to be, mainly because of test of faith. I personaly don't use ToF anymore so take BGH instead, and i think it's good that i have to choose betwen cc/stab and damage. BGH is not "just a bit of damage", it's 20% extra damage on top of everything else and increased duration on f1. That's HUGE, and imo they would either have to nerf BGH's damage multiplier in PvP or leave deflecting shot without stab. I think they are competitive already tho, i play BGH 40% of my matches , usually when i know the enemy team have stab sources, since theres no point in having ToF against that anyway.
    Not gonna lie, hitting someone for 10~13k in WvW because of BGH feels good, but i think we should move away from 1-shots in sPvP, we don't need another "power herald" kind of build in the game.

    Puncture Shot and Symbol of Energy could use projectile speed, not attackspeed, but it's pretty fair the way they are currently.

    Agreed. I'd also go so far as to say nerf the range buffer on auto attack. It seriously hits sitting targets at like 1650 units away or something ridiculous like that even though it's only listed as 1200 range.

    Yeah, hopefuly they fix this one day because it's very weird being hit from that far by auto-attacks.

    Hunter's Ward is "slow" and have a "long cooldown" because it's a very powerful skill, it's a 5 seconds imobilize that cancels actions of the enemy tries to walk out of it without stability and if you don't catch them, they will at least burn one or two dodges, giving you opportunity to hit them with trueshot and puncture shot. Or they could reduce the ring duration from 5 to 2 seconds and reduce the cooldown accordingly.

    It's really not that powerful. It has SO many counterplay options:
    1. As soon as you see a DH casting this skill, port to them and burst them.
    2. Pressure DH for 2.5 seconds, then dodge at the last moment to avoid the root.
    3. blind DH in the last moment so the ward doesn't land
    4. Simply dodge out of the aoe early on and continue pressuring the DH
    5. Literally apply 1 stack of stability and walk out. You can also get hit by the ward, and immediately hit a stun-break and walk out since there is a minimum time to get repeatedly CCed by the ward.
    6. Teleport out of the ward. You will get knocked down but will still end up outside of the ward.
    7. Let the ward encase you, and be ready with an interrupt, counter-burst, reflect (if they use trueshot) or invuln as soon as the DH ports in to follow-up. Honestly the damage from it is not impressive, you can eat it and still be in good shape.
    It's also a situational attack. The best time and pretty much only time you use it effectively is when you see 2+ opponents fighting an ally far away, and you open with this skill. Overall this skill needs a bit of love in the form of usability. A lower cast time (2.25s, match ranger's LB5) would be a good start. It could also use a lower cooldown of 35 or maybe even 30 seconds, or perhaps a heavy CD reduction if you cancel the cast, since this skill could have some value in baiting an opponent but currently its CD is too long to do something like that.

    That's good! Having counterplay against powerful CCs like that is fine, you have to use it at the right time to either bait their dodges/stability, or trap them if you know they used those already. I wish we had more skills balanced like this in the game. If i were to choose a small buff to the skill i'd choose 5~10 CD reduction, but i don't think it's necessary honestly.
    The damage is pretty OK imo. It's a bit stronger than a trueshot, and the first few hits takes care of aegis and blind, i'm ok with how it is currently.

    If anything, anet should nerf overperforming builds/specs instead of making DH overpowered. Powercreep is not good for the game in general, we should be asking for proper balance betwen specs instead of screaming for our favorite class to be buffed like some people in the forums do.

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Alehin.3746 said:
    It doesn't not make the weapon "incomplete", it's just not as good as people want it to be, mainly because of test of faith. I personaly don't use ToF anymore so take BGH instead, and i think it's good that i have to choose betwen cc/stab and damage. BGH is not "just a bit of damage", it's 20% extra damage on top of everything else and increased duration on f1. That's HUGE, and imo they would either have to nerf BGH's damage multiplier in PvP or leave deflecting shot without stab. I think they are competitive already tho, i play BGH 40% of my matches , usually when i know the enemy team have stab sources, since theres no point in having ToF against that anyway.
    Not gonna lie, hitting someone for 10~13k in WvW because of BGH feels good, but i think we should move away from 1-shots in sPvP, we don't need another "power herald" kind of build in the game.

    It does make it incomplete if you're playing any build other than a pseudo-deadeye, 1-shot TS build. If an opponent knows that your deflecting shot doesn't knockback, they will not respect this attack AT ALL. They will literally let it hit them and just keep attacking you since it does the damage of an auto attack and has no further effect other than an easily removable blind. If you're on longbow and you have an opponent in melee range pressuring you, then you don't really have any skills on your weapon to deal with them. That's the whole reason knockback on LB3 is good since it gives you that option. It forces foes to respect you (by either maintaining distance, or strafing a lot while approaching you which makes kiting for you easier). I don't think we should have to choose between having CC and doing additional damage, I think we should have to choose between being rewarded for landing our CC and doing additional damage.

    As for your comments on BGH: I don't doubt it. One of my favorite builds to run is a full melee DH that doesn't use traps. While tethered to someone with f1, you do such insane damage that it actually outclasses core-guard during your 8 seconds of f1. It does however equate to less frequent bursts, your burst is almost entirely reliant on landing f1, and you have to be within 1200 range of your opponent for it to work (which is why it synergizes well with a melee-DH). These factors considered, I think BGH is perfectly balanced for LB and has counterplay options. I played a BGH-longbow build all but a handful of times (mostly pvp, not so much wvw), and it does great when you're +1ing but it does SO poorly for a handful of other situations (vs. spellbreaker, holosmith, reaper, daredevil in smaller scale or 1v1 fights) that it's just not as usable as meditrapper imo. That would completely change to more even matchups should BGH-LB build gain access to a knockback on LB3 and I don't think that's overpowered. I mean the core wombo combo of meditrapper wouldn't really even synergize with BGH. You'd immediately lose that 20% extra damage as soon as you try to pull someone across ToF.

    That's good! Having counterplay against powerful CCs like that is fine, you have to use it at the right time to either bait their dodges/stability, or trap them if you know they used those already. I wish we had more skills balanced like this in the game. If i were to choose a small buff to the skill i'd choose 5~10 CD reduction, but i don't think it's necessary honestly.
    The damage is pretty OK imo. It's a bit stronger than a trueshot, and the first few hits takes care of aegis and blind, i'm ok with how it is currently.

    My argument is that it's not a powerful CC though. The damage is absolutely nothing to write home about (channeling damage is negligible and the final impact is identical to truesho iirc), and the CC itself is only useful if you're going to capitalize on it (follow up with trueshot, or some other burst combo). Of the 7 points I made to you, 3 of them were scenarios in which you get hit by the final strike and are trapped in the ward. you have so many counterplay options (to either avoid, or to react once struck) against Hunter's Ward that it just equates to a fairly ineffective skill.

    If anything, anet should nerf overperforming builds/specs instead of making DH overpowered. Powercreep is not good for the game in general, we should be asking for proper balance betwen specs instead of screaming for our favorite class to be buffed like some people in the forums do.

    I almost agree. Nerfing the overtuned should absolutely be a priority right now, and maybe that would result in a game balance where DH never needs these buffs. Also, I think other weapons/skills need buffing on guardian before DH or LB do. I always make these arguments for LB buffs though given the current meta, or even recently historical meta: DH could receive baseline knockback on LB3 and it wouldn't overtune the spec at least not in pvp.

  • Zephoid.4263Zephoid.4263 Member ✭✭

    The weapon is straight garbage.
    PVE the weapon's dps is complete and utter trash. Just spamming scepter 1 and 2 do more dps than the entire longbow kit.
    PVP it serves no purpose and its purpose runs counter to the entire rest of guard's purpose. the weapon i on a profession that needs to be close to its target. Unlike ranger, guards have very few ranged or good self buff utilities. Imo, i'd turn the LB into a CC weapon. Knockbase base on 3, make the 4 symbol knockdown target if they get hit by X pulses. That gives you 3 hard CCs on one weapon and mitigates the channel problems on 2 and 5.

    I woludn't even take it in WVW as being rooted for an attack is asking to die. DPS isn't good, your hp is tiny if you go dps with guard, and your entire profession concept is pretty meaningless.

    Overall, a big problem with guard is the lack of dps purpose in PVP. You cannot play high level pvp with dps guard. You are strictly inferior to almost every other power dps class. With the 25% crit loss and the hammer nerf, Anet took a mid-low teir PVP profession and nerfed it into the ground. You play support FB or you don't play guard in PVP right now.

  • Alehin.3746Alehin.3746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2019

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    @Alehin.3746 said:
    It doesn't not make the weapon "incomplete", it's just not as good as people want it to be, mainly because of test of faith. I personaly don't use ToF anymore so take BGH instead, and i think it's good that i have to choose betwen cc/stab and damage. BGH is not "just a bit of damage", it's 20% extra damage on top of everything else and increased duration on f1. That's HUGE, and imo they would either have to nerf BGH's damage multiplier in PvP or leave deflecting shot without stab. I think they are competitive already tho, i play BGH 40% of my matches , usually when i know the enemy team have stab sources, since theres no point in having ToF against that anyway.
    Not gonna lie, hitting someone for 10~13k in WvW because of BGH feels good, but i think we should move away from 1-shots in sPvP, we don't need another "power herald" kind of build in the game.

    It does make it incomplete if you're playing any build other than a pseudo-deadeye, 1-shot TS build. If an opponent knows that your deflecting shot doesn't knockback, they will not respect this attack AT ALL. They will literally let it hit them and just keep attacking you since it does the damage of an auto attack and has no further effect other than an easily removable blind. If you're on longbow and you have an opponent in melee range pressuring you, then you don't really have any skills on your weapon to deal with them. That's the whole reason knockback on LB3 is good since it gives you that option. It forces foes to respect you (by either maintaining distance, or strafing a lot while approaching you which makes kiting for you easier). I don't think we should have to choose between having CC and doing additional damage, I think we should have to choose between being rewarded for landing our CC and doing additional damage.

    You're supposed to use the longbow to harass targets away from you, not close up targets. Blind have a good use, it's just aegis but you apply it to the enemy instead of yourself.
    No we shouldn't have CC+20% extra damage for 8 seconds, that's just insane. BGH and HL should be used in different situations, if anet just let us have the knocback+BGH, nobody would pick any other grandmaster trait no matter what. This is not healthy for the game, like i said before, we should bring down overpowered specs instead of just mashing everything in the traitlines together just to keep up.

    As for your comments on BGH: I don't doubt it. One of my favorite builds to run is a full melee DH that doesn't use traps. While tethered to someone with f1, you do such insane damage that it actually outclasses core-guard during your 8 seconds of f1. It does however equate to less frequent bursts, your burst is almost entirely reliant on landing f1, and you have to be within 1200 range of your opponent for it to work (which is why it synergizes well with a melee-DH). These factors considered, I think BGH is perfectly balanced for LB and has counterplay options. I played a BGH-longbow build all but a handful of times (mostly pvp, not so much wvw), and it does great when you're +1ing but it does SO poorly for a handful of other situations (vs. spellbreaker, holosmith, reaper, daredevil in smaller scale or 1v1 fights) that it's just not as usable as meditrapper imo. That would completely change to more even matchups should BGH-LB build gain access to a knockback on LB3 and I don't think that's overpowered. I mean the core wombo combo of meditrapper wouldn't really even synergize with BGH. You'd immediately lose that 20% extra damage as soon as you try to pull someone across ToF.

    Traps are terrible, we should look for a rework of those instead of powercreeping the traits. BGH is not a "melee only" trait, it's a 20% damage bonus that lasts for 8 seconds, it works well with anything. I think you guys should let the "i'm a medritrapper, i CC and do big damage!" mentality go, that build will never work again unless anet nerfs all the stab sources available in the game. And being rewarded with damage when you cc-chain someone (instead of CC-chaining and doing damage because they're CC'd) is pretty cancerous anyway, because you either do a lot of damage to someone with no stability or you do zero damage to people with stability.
    And yes, maybe giving D-shot a knocback isn't OP, but BGH is OP. Being able to keep the 20% damage after pulling someone is not far/healthy, since people would just pull them into traps anyway.
    Meditrapper is a unfun build to play against, and honestly i'm glad i don't have to play it anymore since i can just play BGH and murder people with my weapons instead of relying on them not having stability.

    That's good! Having counterplay against powerful CCs like that is fine, you have to use it at the right time to either bait their dodges/stability, or trap them if you know they used those already. I wish we had more skills balanced like this in the game. If i were to choose a small buff to the skill i'd choose 5~10 CD reduction, but i don't think it's necessary honestly.
    The damage is pretty OK imo. It's a bit stronger than a trueshot, and the first few hits takes care of aegis and blind, i'm ok with how it is currently.

    My argument is that it's not a powerful CC though.

    A 5 seconds ring that won't let people cross it unless they use stab is not powerful? Ok.

    The damage is absolutely nothing to write home about (channeling damage is negligible and the final impact is identical to truesho iirc),

    The first few hits remove aegis, blind and apply cripple, i'm ok with them not doing a lot of damage. The final impact is a trueshot with the advantage of the enemy being cripples, without aegis, you won't have blind AND they can't dodge away from it. I love it.

    and the CC itself is only useful if you're going to capitalize on it (follow up with trueshot, or some other burst combo).

    Why wouldn't you captalize on it? I show 0 mercy to people that don't dodge Hunter's Ward.

    Of the 7 points I made to you, 3 of them were scenarios in which you get hit by the final strike and are trapped in the ward. you have so many counterplay options (to either avoid, or to react once struck) against Hunter's Ward that it just equates to a fairly ineffective skill.

    Let's go over them 1 by 1 to see if i think it's fair or not.

    It's really not that powerful. It has SO many counterplay options:
    1. As soon as you see a DH casting this skill, port to them and burst them.

    That's ok counterplay, if you made them use their port on you, just cancel your Hunter's Ward and fight them on close range.

    1. Pressure DH for 2.5 seconds, then dodge at the last moment to avoid the root.

    If ranged: You're not supposed to be casting this on sic'em rangers or anything like that. If melee: Don't use longbow on melee range.

    1. blind DH in the last moment so the ward doesn't land

    That's good counterplay, just like we guardins can block a lot of stuff. Good job for people that do this, i rarely see them though.

    1. Simply dodge out of the aoe early on and continue pressuring the DH

    Good counterplay, we're not entittled to hitting people if they dodge our big hits.

    1. Literally apply 1 stack of stability and walk out. You can also get hit by the ward, and immediately hit a stun-break and walk out since there is a minimum time to get repeatedly CCed by the ward.

    This doesn't happen often, i usually pressure people enough before using it so they don't have any means of escape.

    1. Teleport out of the ward. You will get knocked down but will still end up outside of the ward.

    Just like any other ward-like skill. And you burned their teleport, nice.

    1. Let the ward encase you, and be ready with an interrupt, counter-burst, reflect (if they use trueshot) or invuln as soon as the DH ports in to follow-up. Honestly the damage from it is not impressive, you can eat it and still be in good shape.

    Using the ward on healthy-enemies is not a good idea, you're supposed to save this for when you know they don't have some of their utilities, or when people are trying to LoS.

    It's also a situational attack. The best time and pretty much only time you use it effectively is when you see 2+ opponents fighting an ally far away, and you open with this skill. Overall this skill needs a bit of love in the form of usability. A lower cast time (2.25s, match ranger's LB5) would be a good start. It could also use a lower cooldown of 35 or maybe even 30 seconds, or perhaps a heavy CD reduction if you cancel the cast, since this skill could have some value in baiting an opponent but currently its CD is too long to do something like that.

    Yes i wish we had more situational skills instead of "just mash everything on cooldown", that's great. I should not be buffed to 2.25 channel time tho, because ranger's LB5 is TERRIBLE. The cooldown is long because it's a strong skill, it's just not supposed to be used off-cooldown, but a -5 seconds would be nice to make the weapon a bit more attractive.

    If anything, anet should nerf overperforming builds/specs instead of making DH overpowered. Powercreep is not good for the game in general, we should be asking for proper balance betwen specs instead of screaming for our favorite class to be buffed like some people in the forums do.

    I almost agree. Nerfing the overtuned should absolutely be a priority right now, and maybe that would result in a game balance where DH never needs these buffs. Also, I think other weapons/skills need buffing on guardian before DH or LB do.

    Yeah that would be fantastic, the game would be so much more interesting imo.

    I always make these arguments for LB buffs though given the current meta, or even recently historical meta: DH could receive baseline knockback on LB3 and it wouldn't overtune the spec at least not in pvp.

    I wish they took a few patches to nerf things that are overperforming a lot, then found a "level they want elite specs to be in" and put everyone around that level of balance, specially for PvP and WvW.

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2019

    @Alehin.3746 said:
    You're supposed to use the longbow to harass targets away from you, not close up targets. Blind have a good use, it's just aegis but you apply it to the enemy instead of yourself.

    Don't entirely agree with that. I think all 2-handed weapons should have at least one defensive option (and by defensive, I mean anything that can be used to on-demand negate an enemy's attacks, including ability to CC/interrupt them or that gives you mobility such as a leap), and for the most part they do. So too does LB on DH but it's worse than all of the others by far. Blind is one of the weaker defensive options out there, and if it was a reliable attack I'd be fine with it, but the blind is attached to an aimed skill shot which is slow (so it's practically not on-demand).

    No we shouldn't have CC+20% extra damage for 8 seconds, that's just insane. BGH and HL should be used in different situations, if anet just let us have the knocback+BGH, nobody would pick any other grandmaster trait no matter what. This is not healthy for the game, like i said before, we should bring down overpowered specs instead of just mashing everything in the traitlines together just to keep up.

    If LB got knockback by default (so you could have HL and BGH at the same time), but no one else got nerfed, it would be balanced. If everyone else got nerfed, but LB and HL were left as is, it would be balanced. That's my final position on this.

    Traps are terrible, we should look for a rework of those instead of powercreeping the traits. BGH is not a "melee only" trait, it's a 20% damage bonus that lasts for 8 seconds, it works well with anything. I think you guys should let the "i'm a medritrapper, i CC and do big damage!" mentality go, that build will never work again unless anet nerfs all the stab sources available in the game. And being rewarded with damage when you cc-chain someone (instead of CC-chaining and doing damage because they're CC'd) is pretty cancerous anyway, because you either do a lot of damage to someone with no stability or you do zero damage to people with stability.

    If your target moves outside your f1 tether range, you lose that +20% damage. Of course BGH is not a melee-only trait, however if you tether someone at 1200 range, then they can very easily break tether, which is why a melee build lends itself to maximizing BGH's potential.

    And yes, maybe giving D-shot a knocback isn't OP, but BGH is OP. Being able to keep the 20% damage after pulling someone is not far/healthy, since people would just pull them into traps anyway.

    Am I missing something? You WOULDN'T be able to keep the 20% damage after pulling someone because that breaks your tether. And for this reason, BGH does not synergize with Test of Faith, because pulling someone immediately causes you to lose that +20% damage.

    Meditrapper is a unfun build to play against, and honestly i'm glad i don't have to play it anymore since i can just play BGH and murder people with my weapons instead of relying on them not having stability.

    Unfun, maybe a bit, but it's not overpowered any way you want to slice it.

    A 5 seconds ring that won't let people cross it unless they use stab is not powerful? Ok.

    You're interpreting its strength in the most ideal possible situation to where it is maximally effective. You can't only evaluate skills in these scenarios otherwise you can make certain skills sound more broken than the dreams of the entire Millenial generation.

    The first few hits remove aegis, blind and apply cripple, i'm ok with them not doing a lot of damage. The final impact is a trueshot with the advantage of the enemy being cripples, without aegis, you won't have blind AND they can't dodge away from it. I love it.

    If someone notices (purely by reaction speed) that they are in the center of your Hunter's Ward aoe, then can begin hobbling and in some cases (if they have swiftness or superspeed) simply walk out of the aoe without needing to burn a dodge.

    Of the 7 points I made to you, 3 of them were scenarios in which you get hit by the final strike and are trapped in the ward. you have so many counterplay options (to either avoid, or to react once struck) against Hunter's Ward that it just equates to a fairly ineffective skill.

    Let's go over them 1 by 1 to see if i think it's fair or not.

    (just responding to your points, not quoting)
    1. Alright but good luck fighting them close range when you lack counterplay options on LB. Also, if you cancel cast to dodge their burst, then as it turns out, they have made YOU burn a cd, and a dodge, and are likely to follow up with another burst/pressure right after your dodge. A smart opponent can force you to trade with them if they are aware of you and see you casting LB5 and DH is not very good at trading once their f3 is on cooldown.
    2. So then your ability to use Hunter's Ward is completely obsolete against a majority of encounters? Everyone who is directly focused on you is either going to be attacking you in melee range or ranged themselves.
    5. Sure it does. The vast majority of classes have access to stability in an accessible form as part of a meta build (either by default or very little change needed to access stab if they so choose).
    6. Sure you burned their teleport.. maybe only after you have burned both your LB 5 and a teleport of your own when you come in for the burst. If you trap a mesmer or a thief (the only two classes you will ever trap with LB 5 who won't use stab to get out), then teleport in with either GS2, or sword 3, then can blink/shadow step out.
    7. In the middle of battle once the enemy is not healthy, you're not going to want to be using LB5. They can simply continue auto attacking you (out-dpses you while you are casting + regen endurance), dodge the big hit at the end, and you just came out on the bottom of the trade.

    Yes i wish we had more situational skills instead of "just mash everything on cooldown", that's great. I should not be buffed to 2.25 channel time tho, because ranger's LB5 is TERRIBLE. The cooldown is long because it's a strong skill, it's just not supposed to be used off-cooldown, but a -5 seconds would be nice to make the weapon a bit more attractive.

    Well I sure don't. Not on a weapon anyways. Mash everything on cooldown is better than mash 1, and occasionally use 2, 3, 4, and 5 when necessary. Also, why shouldn't it be buffed to 2.25 seconds? That's a really inconsequential buff. And the cooldown is long because Anet THINKS it's a strong skill, not because it objectively is. You know what the cooldown used to be on Virtue of Courage in vanilla GW2? 90 seconds. Retreat? 60 seconds. Are you going to tell me that a single block is so strong that it merits a 60-90s cooldown, even in vanilla GW2? Because I would disagree.

    I wish they took a few patches to nerf things that are overperforming a lot, then found a "level they want elite specs to be in" and put everyone around that level of balance, specially for PvP and WvW.

    Agreed. It's unlikely to happen though. Why nerf 8 when you can buff 1? Anet only has so much time and resources and that's apparent. That's the reason I call for minor incremental buffs and nerfs rather than widespread nerfing to everyone else

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    @Alehin.3746 said:
    You're supposed to use the longbow to harass targets away from you, not close up targets. Blind have a good use, it's just aegis but you apply it to the enemy instead of yourself.

    Don't entirely agree with that. I think all 2-handed weapons should have at least one defensive option (and by defensive, I mean anything that can be used to on-demand negate an enemy's attacks, including ability to CC/interrupt them or that gives you mobility such as a leap), and for the most part they do. So too does LB on DH but it's worse than all of the others by far. Blind is one of the weaker defensive options out there, and if it was a reliable attack I'd be fine with it, but the blind is attached to an aimed skill shot which is slow (so it's practically not on-demand).

    No we shouldn't have CC+20% extra damage for 8 seconds, that's just insane. BGH and HL should be used in different situations, if anet just let us have the knocback+BGH, nobody would pick any other grandmaster trait no matter what. This is not healthy for the game, like i said before, we should bring down overpowered specs instead of just mashing everything in the traitlines together just to keep up.

    If LB got knockback by default (so you could have HL and BGH at the same time), but no one else got nerfed, it would be balanced. If everyone else got nerfed, but LB and HL were left as is, it would be balanced. That's my final position on this.

    Traps are terrible, we should look for a rework of those instead of powercreeping the traits. BGH is not a "melee only" trait, it's a 20% damage bonus that lasts for 8 seconds, it works well with anything. I think you guys should let the "i'm a medritrapper, i CC and do big damage!" mentality go, that build will never work again unless anet nerfs all the stab sources available in the game. And being rewarded with damage when you cc-chain someone (instead of CC-chaining and doing damage because they're CC'd) is pretty cancerous anyway, because you either do a lot of damage to someone with no stability or you do zero damage to people with stability.

    If your target moves outside your f1 tether range, you lose that +20% damage. Of course BGH is not a melee-only trait, however if you tether someone at 1200 range, then they can very easily break tether, which is why a melee build lends itself to maximizing BGH's potential.

    And yes, maybe giving D-shot a knocback isn't OP, but BGH is OP. Being able to keep the 20% damage after pulling someone is not far/healthy, since people would just pull them into traps anyway.

    Am I missing something? You WOULDN'T be able to keep the 20% damage after pulling someone because that breaks your tether. And for this reason, BGH does not synergize with Test of Faith, because pulling someone immediately causes you to lose that +20% damage.

    Meditrapper is a unfun build to play against, and honestly i'm glad i don't have to play it anymore since i can just play BGH and murder people with my weapons instead of relying on them not having stability.

    Unfun, maybe a bit, but it's not overpowered any way you want to slice it.

    A 5 seconds ring that won't let people cross it unless they use stab is not powerful? Ok.

    You're interpreting its strength in the most ideal possible situation to where it is maximally effective. You can't only evaluate skills in these scenarios otherwise you can make certain skills sound more broken than the dreams of the entire Millenial generation.

    The first few hits remove aegis, blind and apply cripple, i'm ok with them not doing a lot of damage. The final impact is a trueshot with the advantage of the enemy being cripples, without aegis, you won't have blind AND they can't dodge away from it. I love it.

    If someone notices (purely by reaction speed) that they are in the center of your Hunter's Ward aoe, then can begin hobbling and in some cases (if they have swiftness or superspeed) simply walk out of the aoe without needing to burn a dodge.

    Of the 7 points I made to you, 3 of them were scenarios in which you get hit by the final strike and are trapped in the ward. you have so many counterplay options (to either avoid, or to react once struck) against Hunter's Ward that it just equates to a fairly ineffective skill.

    Let's go over them 1 by 1 to see if i think it's fair or not.

    (just responding to your points, not quoting)
    1. Alright but good luck fighting them close range when you lack counterplay options on LB. Also, if you cancel cast to dodge their burst, then as it turns out, they have made YOU burn a cd, and a dodge, and are likely to follow up with another burst/pressure right after your dodge. A smart opponent can force you to trade with them if they are aware of you and see you casting LB5 and DH is not very good at trading once their f3 is on cooldown.
    2. So then your ability to use Hunter's Ward is completely obsolete against a majority of encounters? Everyone who is directly focused on you is either going to be attacking you in melee range or ranged themselves.
    5. Sure it does. The vast majority of classes have access to stability in an accessible form as part of a meta build (either by default or very little change needed to access stab if they so choose).
    6. Sure you burned their teleport.. maybe only after you have burned both your LB 5 and a teleport of your own when you come in for the burst. If you trap a mesmer or a thief (the only two classes you will ever trap with LB 5 who won't use stab to get out), then teleport in with either GS2, or sword 3, then can blink/shadow step out.
    7. In the middle of battle once the enemy is not healthy, you're not going to want to be using LB5. They can simply continue auto attacking you (out-dpses you while you are casting + regen endurance), dodge the big hit at the end, and you just came out on the bottom of the trade.

    Yes i wish we had more situational skills instead of "just mash everything on cooldown", that's great. I should not be buffed to 2.25 channel time tho, because ranger's LB5 is TERRIBLE. The cooldown is long because it's a strong skill, it's just not supposed to be used off-cooldown, but a -5 seconds would be nice to make the weapon a bit more attractive.

    Well I sure don't. Not on a weapon anyways. Mash everything on cooldown is better than mash 1, and occasionally use 2, 3, 4, and 5 when necessary. Also, why shouldn't it be buffed to 2.25 seconds? That's a really inconsequential buff. And the cooldown is long because Anet THINKS it's a strong skill, not because it objectively is. You know what the cooldown used to be on Virtue of Courage in vanilla GW2? 90 seconds. Retreat? 60 seconds. Are you going to tell me that a single block is so strong that it merits a 60-90s cooldown, even in vanilla GW2? Because I would disagree.

    I wish they took a few patches to nerf things that are overperforming a lot, then found a "level they want elite specs to be in" and put everyone around that level of balance, specially for PvP and WvW.

    Agreed. It's unlikely to happen though. Why nerf 8 when you can buff 1? Anet only has so much time and resources and that's apparent. That's the reason I call for minor incremental buffs and nerfs rather than widespread nerfing to everyone else

    EDIT: I'll add one more thing: I do appreciate you discussing Hunter's Ward with me. It's made me think about the skill a bit more. I can honestly tell you that in pvp/wvw, I do use the skill at least once or twice per match, but it is a bit disappointing that I don't get to use it in more situations. I am just of the opinion that some minor changes could be made to Hunter's Ward that would functionally keep it the same, would not increase its damage or it's dps, but would make it a whole lot more usable compared to what it is now. Just imagine if you had some changes like:

    A. Hunter's Ward takes 2.25 seconds to cast instead of 2.75 seconds.
    B. Hunter's Ward cast takes 2.75 seconds until final impact, but you only sit there casting for the first 2 seconds, leaving you some time to set up another skill before the final impact (could possibly overtune it too much)
    C. Hunter's Ward could be used while moving (also likely be overtuned lol)
    D. Hunter's Ward had a shorter cooldown (30-35 seconds) - maybe less CC to compensate.
    E. Increase the damage a bit (buff final impact 10%, and all initial hits 10%).

    I'm a fan of scenarios A or E at the very least. I think the skill has too long of a cast time and too long of a cooldown for the amount of foresight it takes to land it and the amount of reward you reap for landing it.

  • Alehin.3746Alehin.3746 Member ✭✭✭

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:

    @Alehin.3746 said:
    You're supposed to use the longbow to harass targets away from you, not close up targets. Blind have a good use, it's just aegis but you apply it to the enemy instead of yourself.

    Don't entirely agree with that. I think all 2-handed weapons should have at least one defensive option (and by defensive, I mean anything that can be used to on-demand negate an enemy's attacks, including ability to CC/interrupt them or that gives you mobility such as a leap), and for the most part they do. So too does LB on DH but it's worse than all of the others by far. Blind is one of the weaker defensive options out there, and if it was a reliable attack I'd be fine with it, but the blind is attached to an aimed skill shot which is slow (so it's practically not on-demand).

    No we shouldn't have CC+20% extra damage for 8 seconds, that's just insane. BGH and HL should be used in different situations, if anet just let us have the knocback+BGH, nobody would pick any other grandmaster trait no matter what. This is not healthy for the game, like i said before, we should bring down overpowered specs instead of just mashing everything in the traitlines together just to keep up.

    If LB got knockback by default (so you could have HL and BGH at the same time), but no one else got nerfed, it would be balanced. If everyone else got nerfed, but LB and HL were left as is, it would be balanced. That's my final position on this.

    Traps are terrible, we should look for a rework of those instead of powercreeping the traits. BGH is not a "melee only" trait, it's a 20% damage bonus that lasts for 8 seconds, it works well with anything. I think you guys should let the "i'm a medritrapper, i CC and do big damage!" mentality go, that build will never work again unless anet nerfs all the stab sources available in the game. And being rewarded with damage when you cc-chain someone (instead of CC-chaining and doing damage because they're CC'd) is pretty cancerous anyway, because you either do a lot of damage to someone with no stability or you do zero damage to people with stability.

    If your target moves outside your f1 tether range, you lose that +20% damage. Of course BGH is not a melee-only trait, however if you tether someone at 1200 range, then they can very easily break tether, which is why a melee build lends itself to maximizing BGH's potential.

    And yes, maybe giving D-shot a knocback isn't OP, but BGH is OP. Being able to keep the 20% damage after pulling someone is not far/healthy, since people would just pull them into traps anyway.

    Am I missing something? You WOULDN'T be able to keep the 20% damage after pulling someone because that breaks your tether. And for this reason, BGH does not synergize with Test of Faith, because pulling someone immediately causes you to lose that +20% damage.

    Meditrapper is a unfun build to play against, and honestly i'm glad i don't have to play it anymore since i can just play BGH and murder people with my weapons instead of relying on them not having stability.

    Unfun, maybe a bit, but it's not overpowered any way you want to slice it.

    A 5 seconds ring that won't let people cross it unless they use stab is not powerful? Ok.

    You're interpreting its strength in the most ideal possible situation to where it is maximally effective. You can't only evaluate skills in these scenarios otherwise you can make certain skills sound more broken than the dreams of the entire Millenial generation.

    The first few hits remove aegis, blind and apply cripple, i'm ok with them not doing a lot of damage. The final impact is a trueshot with the advantage of the enemy being cripples, without aegis, you won't have blind AND they can't dodge away from it. I love it.

    If someone notices (purely by reaction speed) that they are in the center of your Hunter's Ward aoe, then can begin hobbling and in some cases (if they have swiftness or superspeed) simply walk out of the aoe without needing to burn a dodge.

    Of the 7 points I made to you, 3 of them were scenarios in which you get hit by the final strike and are trapped in the ward. you have so many counterplay options (to either avoid, or to react once struck) against Hunter's Ward that it just equates to a fairly ineffective skill.

    Let's go over them 1 by 1 to see if i think it's fair or not.

    (just responding to your points, not quoting)
    1. Alright but good luck fighting them close range when you lack counterplay options on LB. Also, if you cancel cast to dodge their burst, then as it turns out, they have made YOU burn a cd, and a dodge, and are likely to follow up with another burst/pressure right after your dodge. A smart opponent can force you to trade with them if they are aware of you and see you casting LB5 and DH is not very good at trading once their f3 is on cooldown.
    2. So then your ability to use Hunter's Ward is completely obsolete against a majority of encounters? Everyone who is directly focused on you is either going to be attacking you in melee range or ranged themselves.
    5. Sure it does. The vast majority of classes have access to stability in an accessible form as part of a meta build (either by default or very little change needed to access stab if they so choose).
    6. Sure you burned their teleport.. maybe only after you have burned both your LB 5 and a teleport of your own when you come in for the burst. If you trap a mesmer or a thief (the only two classes you will ever trap with LB 5 who won't use stab to get out), then teleport in with either GS2, or sword 3, then can blink/shadow step out.
    7. In the middle of battle once the enemy is not healthy, you're not going to want to be using LB5. They can simply continue auto attacking you (out-dpses you while you are casting + regen endurance), dodge the big hit at the end, and you just came out on the bottom of the trade.

    Yes i wish we had more situational skills instead of "just mash everything on cooldown", that's great. I should not be buffed to 2.25 channel time tho, because ranger's LB5 is TERRIBLE. The cooldown is long because it's a strong skill, it's just not supposed to be used off-cooldown, but a -5 seconds would be nice to make the weapon a bit more attractive.

    Well I sure don't. Not on a weapon anyways. Mash everything on cooldown is better than mash 1, and occasionally use 2, 3, 4, and 5 when necessary. Also, why shouldn't it be buffed to 2.25 seconds? That's a really inconsequential buff. And the cooldown is long because Anet THINKS it's a strong skill, not because it objectively is. You know what the cooldown used to be on Virtue of Courage in vanilla GW2? 90 seconds. Retreat? 60 seconds. Are you going to tell me that a single block is so strong that it merits a 60-90s cooldown, even in vanilla GW2? Because I would disagree.

    I wish they took a few patches to nerf things that are overperforming a lot, then found a "level they want elite specs to be in" and put everyone around that level of balance, specially for PvP and WvW.

    Agreed. It's unlikely to happen though. Why nerf 8 when you can buff 1? Anet only has so much time and resources and that's apparent. That's the reason I call for minor incremental buffs and nerfs rather than widespread nerfing to everyone else

    EDIT: I'll add one more thing: I do appreciate you discussing Hunter's Ward with me. It's made me think about the skill a bit more. I can honestly tell you that in pvp/wvw, I do use the skill at least once or twice per match, but it is a bit disappointing that I don't get to use it in more situations. I am just of the opinion that some minor changes could be made to Hunter's Ward that would functionally keep it the same, would not increase its damage or it's dps, but would make it a whole lot more usable compared to what it is now. Just imagine if you had some changes like:

    I also appreciate the talk, not gonna respond to anything else because i don't think we can change eachother's mind much on this, but for sure it's a good talk. Thank you!

    A. Hunter's Ward takes 2.25 seconds to cast instead of 2.75 seconds.
    B. Hunter's Ward cast takes 2.75 seconds until final impact, but you only sit there casting for the first 2 seconds, leaving you some time to set up another skill before the final impact (could possibly overtune it too much)
    C. Hunter's Ward could be used while moving (also likely be overtuned lol)
    D. Hunter's Ward had a shorter cooldown (30-35 seconds) - maybe less CC to compensate.
    E. Increase the damage a bit (buff final impact 10%, and all initial hits 10%).

    I'm a fan of scenarios A or E at the very least. I think the skill has too long of a cast time and too long of a cooldown for the amount of foresight it takes to land it and the amount of reward you reap for landing it.

    I think the D and A would be the best buffs for it, it would make the weapon more fluid and probably wayyyy more attractive to use (if anet at least try to not buff everything else -_-)

    Or maybe they could rework trueshot into somtehing that deals 2 or 3 periodic hits, and make it hit a bit harder? Maybe trueshot deals 50% of its damage on impact, then the other 50% as a "DoT that can crit" like the new focus #4. Maybe that's a way to make it better and more fair to play against, who knows?
    At the end of the day i think i just appreciate them not buffing everything to the sky like other people in the forums are suggesting, people say some really extreme stuff here.

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