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It's time to stop balancing WvW around zerg PvP


Shiyo.3578

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Currently, zerg PvP's meta is not fun, nor is it balanced in any way. It also lags sometimes for people even on top end PC's depending on the zerg size(s).

On top of this, by balancing around(and not even creating good balance) zerg PvP, you have completely destroyed roaming, 1v1, and small scale PvP. There are far, far, FAR too many completely gimmicky impossible to kill, or 1 shot builds in WvW compared to sPvP.

Energy sigil being 2x as strong, endure pain lasting 2x as long are just some examples of making players much harder to kill in WvW than SPvP. What this does is encourage people to play brick wall builds that, if attacked, can easily run away spamming invuls/dodges/blocks/evades until they get to their tower. If you are not fighting this type of build, you're fighting some player who can immediately 1 shot you or perma stealth forever while slowly killing you with zero ways to interact with them. This makes roaming very boring and unsatisfying.

By balancing around zerg PvP, you have not created fun zerg PvP, while at the same time you have created completely unbearable roaming and small scale PvP to the point where very few people want to do roaming or small scale due to how many unfun builds there are that either cannot die, can run away from anything, or are perma stealth/1 shotting you.

This doesn't even get into mounts which were implemented in a very unfun way, and probably not thought about much at all. Mounts make roaming/small scale, which is already bad, even worse.

My proposal is this:

Balance around small scale/roaming. Use SPvP balance, do not balance around zergs. This way, roaming and small scale PvP is at least enjoyable, while zerg PvP will be just as badly balanced and unfun as it currently is while you are attempting to only balance around zerg PvP. At least this way, some of WvW will be fun instead of 100% of it being unfun. Balancing around zergs has not made zerg pvp any more fun or more balanced, and the cost of doing so has completely destroyed and ruined small scale/roaming pvp.

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WVW is about large scale fights. why appeal to the small numbers that roam when you can appeal to most the players that want 15+ large scale fights? Go play in PVP arena's if you're into those fights my friend. even the zerg fights are horribly balanced so they are not balancing around anything it seems. Everything in this gamemode is power creeped to hell and back and has nothing to do with balancing around zerg play it's just horribly balanced where balancing aka buffing if something is bad instead of nerfing the overpowered things.

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I explained why - by trying to balance around zerg PvP, you have not only failed at creating fun and balanced zerg pvp, but you have also done it at the expense of roaming and small scale PvP. Balancing around zerg PvP has zero benefits.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:I explained why - by trying to balance around zerg PvP, you have not only failed at creating fun and balanced zerg pvp, but you have also done it at the expense of roaming and small scale PvP. Balancing around zerg PvP has zero benefits.

They're not balancing around zerg play tho.. they're just buffing everything like mad aka power creeping Damage, healing, boons etc. Their balance team has done a poor job and wvw feels the brunt of the power creep since most these changes are for any gamemode other than WVW (like raids no one even plays that gamemode how come balance changes for raids effect wvw? that's crazy). wvw needs it's own balance changes but it never happens so the gamemode will always have the worst balancing of any gamemode.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:I explained why - by trying to balance around zerg PvP, you have not only failed at creating fun and balanced zerg pvp, but you have also done it at the expense of roaming and small scale PvP. Balancing around zerg PvP has zero benefits.

Zerg pvp is fun when you are winning. Not so much when you have an undisciplined squad of roamers trying to zerg.

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It doesn't matter how you balance things. WvW will always favor zerging. The larger your group the better your chance at winning an objective/fight, simple as that. Even if you balanced around 1v1 and small scale fights it wouldn't change anything. Roamers would still be the smaller population and getting +1 would still most likely result in a loss. As someone who enjoys roaming I understand it's not really the point of that game mode.

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@"hunkamania.7561" said:WVW is about large scale fights. why appeal to the small numbers that roam when you can appeal to most the players that want 15+ large scale fights? Go play in PVP arena's if you're into those fights my friend. even the zerg fights are horribly balanced so they are not balancing around anything it seems.

Why not have both?

Take ele as example - in order to be effective in large scale you either need staff or d/w because they provide dps, cc, boons, sustain and/or some defense (mostly aoe), based on their role and build. Sw/d, d/d and sc/f are exclusively roaming weapons so even if you buff/nerf them they wont affect zergs at all because their damage cant compare with staff no matter what and their support is 0. They can balance "zerg weapons" and builds around zergs and roaming ones for roaming without affecting each other.

Problem with balancing other classes comes from lack of trait, weapon and utility skill variety. Take warrior or ranger for example - they use basically same builds regardless of amount of players around them, yet they are both pretty strong in roaming. Dps mesmer is barely existent in zergs, but it's pretty strong in roaming (nerfing damage output wont make it unviable in zergs, but it will make it more balanced in roaming). I'm giving random examples, but there's plenty of situations where zerg build/performance has absolutely nothing to do with one for roaming so there's no need to focus on "zerg balancing" when you can focus on balancing everything. Wvw isnt 24/7 zerg fiesta.

1st big thing I'd do to reach some equality in roaming would be massively reducing base sustain of every single class (so in zergs they all have to rely on supports or have tanky gear themselves), but increase their scaling from healing power so it's more controlled for roaming. Same thing can be done with damage output so glass cannons can actually be glassy instead of being able to tank 3 people while killing another 2. Basically make defensive stats worth taking and required for some actual defense/sustain. Make builds reliant on both stats and traits instead of having half classes with high base sustain from traits and high damage from gear stats, while other half has to be focused fully on offense in order to achieve a bit higher dmg results but die on sniff.

2nd big thing would obviously be reworks of useless utility skills, traits and specializations that can benefit all game modes, not just wvw.

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:Energy sigil being 2x as strong, endure pain lasting 2x as long are just some examples of making players much harder to kill in WvW than SPvP.

Oi, oi, OIII. Stop right there darling. As far as i know, ANet already had thoughts about nerfing energy sigil in WvW but not the rest of things. If they want to make it same as it goes in PvP, please also nerf other things, thank you. I dont want situation where some kind of a dev does "okay, this stays, this stays, this also stays, but lets say this one gets PvP balance, this one too, this one stays" etc. If all, then allUse SPvP balance, do not balance around zergs.Yes please, but I dont think its gonna happen. First, its off-meta game mode (even PvP is off-meta, ya know), second, they don't really care about roaming (change my mind please).

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

Energy sigil being 2x as strong, endure pain lasting 2x as long are just some examples of making players much harder to kill in WvW than SPvP.

sorry a warrior is the worst example of bad balance - warrior in roaming = balanced

Balance from way over powered to overtuned:

  1. Holo
  2. Mirage ( power burst )
  3. scrapper ( its unkillable)
  4. boonbeast
  5. all other ranger elite spec builds with perma evade spam
  6. reaper ( yes reaper ! )
  7. mirage ( condi )
  8. power herald
  9. perma evade thief ( not op but annoying)

balanced =warrioreleguardian

nice try

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:Currently, zerg PvP's meta is not fun, nor is it balanced in any way. It also lags sometimes for people even on top end PC's depending on the zerg size(s).

On top of this, by balancing around(and not even creating good balance) zerg PvP, you have completely destroyed roaming, 1v1, and small scale PvP. There are far, far, FAR too many completely gimmicky impossible to kill, or 1 shot builds in WvW compared to sPvP.

Energy sigil being 2x as strong, endure pain lasting 2x as long are just some examples of making players much harder to kill in WvW than SPvP. What this does is encourage people to play brick wall builds that, if attacked, can easily run away spamming invuls/dodges/blocks/evades until they get to their tower. If you are not fighting this type of build, you're fighting some player who can immediately 1 shot you or perma stealth forever while slowly killing you with zero ways to interact with them. This makes roaming very boring and unsatisfying.

By balancing around zerg PvP, you have not created fun zerg PvP, while at the same time you have created completely unbearable roaming and small scale PvP to the point where very few people want to do roaming or small scale due to how many unfun builds there are that either cannot die, can run away from anything, or are perma stealth/1 shotting you.

This doesn't even get into mounts which were implemented in a very unfun way, and probably not thought about much at all. Mounts make roaming/small scale, which is already bad, even worse.

My proposal is this:

Balance around small scale/roaming. Use SPvP balance, do not balance around zergs. This way, roaming and small scale PvP is at least enjoyable, while zerg PvP will be just as badly balanced and unfun as it currently is while you are attempting to only balance around zerg PvP. At least this way, some of WvW will be fun instead of 100% of it being unfun. Balancing around zergs has not made zerg pvp any more fun or more balanced, and the cost of doing so has completely destroyed and ruined small scale/roaming pvp.

What is GW2 WvW?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World“The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot's realm vs. realm battles."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Camelot“The game combines Arthurian lore, Norse mythology and Irish Celtic legends with a dash of high fantasy. It is set in the period after King Arthur's death and his kingdom has split into three parts which are in a constant state of war with each other. DAoC includes both Player versus Environment (PvE) and Realm versus Realm (RvR) combat.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realm_versus_Realm“In 2001, Mythic Entertainment introduced a new team-based form of PvP combat with the release of Dark Age of Camelot and called it Realm versus Realm. In Realm vs Realm the rules would be similar to PvP combat. Where a single combatant or a group faces one another in PvP. RVR introduces entire Factions fighting each other. RvR was also made more interesting by bypassing the normal "red vs blue" type team battles seen in most games at the time. For RvR, they created a third faction to bring about a large scale "Rock-Paper-Scissors" experience. Last they chose to allow Realm vs Realm to be played out in an open world PvP environment known as the RvR zone. The RvR zone was a free to roam map where players had the choice of where to attack, when to attack, and with how many players. Complete battlefield freedom (even the freedom to not take part) allowed for RvR and DAOC to become one of the most successful MMOs of its time.”

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The problem is not so much zerg, but ELITE SPECS. Powercreep in wvw means that people do more damage and they're harder to kill. This is all thanks to blocks, evades, etc. Not to mention, zergs stack a lot of support and sustain as a whole making it near impossible to kill just one person unless they're separated.

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Well for 1, Anet doesn't seem to balance around zergs; in fact, they don't seem to have a clear path on what they are balancing around when it comes to WvW. On top of that, WvW is not about small scale fighting, it never has, and it never will be. You have to imagine though even if they completely balanced around groups of 5-10, what happens when a group of 50 (1 spammers) encounters that group of 5 to 10? Same thing, they still get run over as if they never even existed.

It really has nothing to do with small scale balance, and everything to do providing no incentive to destack themselves from larger groups. Down state is a perfect example of this; it exclusively favors large numbers. Stacking on top of one another to mitigate damage is another zerg favoring tactic. So perhaps the answer isn't touch the classes per say, but more so to remove downstate, and amplify the damage players take when they are in close proximity to each other.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:I explained why - by trying to balance around zerg PvP, you have not only failed at creating fun and balanced zerg pvp, but you have also done it at the expense of roaming and small scale PvP. Balancing around zerg PvP has zero benefits.

That’s just your opinion. Plenty of people find it fun. If you don’t like large scale fights then there are already game modes called conquest and pvp that are balanced around small scale fights. The whole point of wvw is large battles.

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I don't really see the issue, even if it were true, which I don't believe it is. Of course WvW focuses a bit more around large-scale fights, but that doesn't mean that things, that are seen as blatantly unbalanced in small-scale fights (regardless of whether that is actually true) won't get adressed. Just look at the latest changers to Mirage / Mesmer. They surely weren't adressing any large-scale fight issues because the changes do not really play any role in large scale encounters. They all only adressed things plaing a role in small-scale encounters.

That said, if you are thinking about small-scale PvP, there is a distinct game mode for that. And it's not WvW.

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@"Queen Anastasia.7103" said:"sir, the players are complaining about powercreep there's too much damage in the game!"

"release the warclaw.... let them stare at each other instead. nobody dismounts, nobody gets damaged, nobody dies. perfectly balanced...."

As all things should be

/#Thanos

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Short question:Which type of player do people think is predominant in WvW zones/content? Is it roamers or some type of zergling(static WvW groups, public blobs, etc.)?

Commom sense dictates balance should be done for the biggest playerbase, oh and towards the game modes main intent.

/close topic

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Zergs is the answer to this last bit. Its the path of least resistance in most instances. I know what I'm going to get during NA Primetime. Outside of that I can usually land in the sweet spot of 15-20 person fights. Really depends on a ton of factors including which tier you are in or time of day. Balance is tough. Do I like where things are at for balance? Nope, of course not. At the same time I think we all know that players will use every speed boost imaginable to land on the area that will allow them to win. Even with something like double energy sigils if groups get caught the fight is often done.

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WvW is and has been marketed as epic battles, large clashes, etc.
Small scale roaming is a ancillary feature of WvW, it is not the main focus.You want play balanced around small scale? Go play sPvP.

Does it seem like there's been an influx of ex-PvPers entering WvW lately. Seems every other post wants to make WvW more like sPvP.

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