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Soulbeast Needs Some Genuine Nerf Bat Love in the Next Balance Update


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@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:And Praqtos, from that paragraph, I see this, "it's not fair that a Ranger Pet retargets me after stealth."Mesmers clones do the same thing.Clones yada yada. Clones with 0 damage scares you that much? Or how does this affect any other class other than mesmer, its the only mesmer survivability depends how fast you find the real one.While I dont want to take unnecessary hits from pocket rev or even worse, oneshotting Bambi. Exposing mesmer to the ranger player that must locate real one himself,thats his job,not the AI should do it for him.the rest you mention about the range of a Ranger pet and the range of Mesmers clones, apples and oranges.It's class differences.Its not class differences, its how poorly thought and made clones/phantasms/shatters and their behaviour when someone goes stealth. But thats you started to compare clones and pets.I kindly suggest both of you start a thread in the Ranger forum, asking Rangers what they think about their pets.You want me to ask rangers what they think about pets? Ask mesmers what they think about phantasms, lets laugh together !

/cheersThis is pointless.I agree, a lost cause.Everyone thinks their class is fine when it's overpowered.You have the point here, I would put so many people under this category!And as soon as a class isn't meta they think it's underpowered.Except this is true for the most classes/builds
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@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:And Praqtos, from that paragraph, I see this, "it's not fair that a Ranger Pet retargets me after stealth."Mesmers clones do the same thing.Clones yada yada. Clones with 0 damage scares you that much? Or how does this affect any other class other than mesmer, its the only mesmer survivability depends how fast you find the real one.While I dont want to take unnecessary hits from pocket rev or even worse, oneshotting Bambi. Exposing mesmer to the ranger player that must locate real one himself,thats his job,not the AI should do it for him.the rest you mention about the range of a Ranger pet and the range of Mesmers clones, apples and oranges.It's class differences.Its not class differences, its how poorly thought and made clones/phantasms/shatters and their behaviour when someone goes stealth. But thats you started to compare clones and pets.I kindly suggest both of you start a thread in the Ranger forum, asking Rangers what they think about their pets.You want me to ask rangers what they think about pets? Ask mesmers what they think about phantasms, lets laugh together !

/cheersThis is pointless.Everyone thinks their class is fine when it's overpowered.And as soon as a class isn't meta they think it's underpowered.

You're sadly right and I don't think we can blame the playerbase on this one. You are either a 1 shot pony trick with dozen of escape options or you're a superbunker that can facetank the world...anything in the middle is simply not viable, either not enough dmg to worry super bunker or not enough sustain to survive one shot builds.

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Personally I think this all boils down to gw2 being a tab targeting game. May have been better if it required aiming for certain things like shooting weapons and soft-lock targeting for certain other skills.

But anyway, ranged attacks, mesmer clones etc - all compromised due to tab targeting system.

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@"EnderzShadow.2506" said:Funny, you didn't own up to how long you've been playing or even correct me.Has it even been a year?https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/59449/newish-player-thoughts-on-mesmer-op#latestNovember 2, 2018

Some curious points you make, which you've already contradicted in this thread alone

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:GW2 is my first MMO, and I've only been playing since earlier this year. I've been reading a lot of the "mesmer OP, need nerf" threads and they've prompted me to make my first post. My first, and still main, character is a Mesmer. I had no clue what playing it would be like. I was simply drawn to the unique concept and pretty effects.I completely agree that mesmer in general can be challenging for inexperienced opponents or anyone who doesn't know how the class works. That's because the abilities are so unconventional. The class is unique to GW and one has to do some homework to see what it's about. This probably explains many of the "I tried mes for 5 mins and dominated, therefore it's OP" stories.
Against those who don't know how to counter it, it takes no prisoners.

But I'm certainly not about to get on the forums to accuse professions I know little about of being OP, let alone advocating nerfs.

How long did it take for that to change?

I'm sure you can look at two dates and figure out how much time passed in between them.

More importantly, what's your point? That a new player once said something showing they recognized their unfamiliarity at the time? And that over 7 months later, after a lot of time playing and learning, saw fit to suggest changes? Did you notice what the very first sentence of the OP in this thread reads? I don't see any inconsistency.

I get it. For some, it's easier to try to discredit the speaker than to counter their argument.

Not that I've tried to hide it (obviously), but let's get this out of the way, shall we? I main mes and I'm relatively new (but not totally new) to this 7 year old game. I believe SLB, among others, is currently power-crept and needs some changes. Nothing anyone can say about the class I play or how long I've been playing will change that, nor should it.

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@EnderzShadow.2506 said:/cheersThis is pointless.Everyone thinks their class is fine when it's overpowered.And as soon as a class isn't meta they think it's underpowered.

TBF, a lot of Mesmer players came out and acknowledged that and where their class was OP. This was against a lot of Ranger players that just wanted Mesmer removed from the game. Ranger players here not only deny any OP Ranger skills, but actually ask for buffs to them. Ranger players have always done this. I've posted an example earlier in this thread where the Ranger forum went berserk when an OP skill was taken away. A skill so OP that Anet fixed it in a day. But many Ranger players claimed that it wasn't OP and that their class needed it. It's crazy the defense of OPness and hypocrisy in this thread by Ranger players.

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Soulbeast is okay but not really that strong. Have you faced a good Rev, Spellbreaker, or Thief? If they are of equal skill level they'll shut down a Soulbeast any day. I'm hard pressed to thing of a profession aside from necromancer that is at a disadvantage against Soulbeast.

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@EnderzShadow.2506 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:What do you want twilight? You said a Ranger pet handily counters all of Mes's stealth and detargeting. So what do you want for Mes?If you want it changed so that a Rangers pet doesn't attack Mesmers after stealth, then that is asking for something special for your class only.

I'm not asking for this change. Just pointing out that AI auto-retargeting affects Mesmers more than others because it directly counters their unique "hide among clones" profession concept.

Good, counters are good for the game.

/Cheers

Counters are part of combat. But I think you're still missing what Praqtos and I are saying about this AI retargeting thing. There are two different but related points here:

  1. Among AIs, Ranger pets are absolutely superior. They're not made of paper and their damage isn't trivial like Mesmer clones. They don't instantly die the way clones prematurely shatter if their target stealths. They don't permanently move onto another target the way Phantasms do when they lose their target (before becoming a paper clone themselves). And Mesmers have no control over their AIs (other than commanding shatters and a couple shuffling skills), unlike Rangers with their pets. Pets also have more range than clones and phantasms, which simply vaporize or freeze if they reach their max range. Apart from these things, all AIs suffer the same pathing issues.
  2. Multiple classes have access to stealth and/or detargets. But none is more dependent on detarget than Mesmer, because a major part of Mesmer's defensive repertoire and survivability is its ability to throw opponents off with clones and hide among them. This is completely circumvented by AIs being able to automatically retarget and refocus the real mesmer player with no action on either player's part. Whether this is intended behavior or an oversight, it is an extremely powerful ability that disproportionately affects the Mesmer playstyle more than any other spec with access to stealth/detarget. It pretty much shuts down the "can't find the real mesmer" complaints, at least among AI owners.

To put this in perspective, imagine if AIs in this game had the magical ability to automatically kick SLBs out of Beast Mode, with no action on any player's part. Yes this is extreme, but it's to illustrate a point. The point is that the behavior unfairly singles out and defeats one spec's basic design concept. It's far more impactful than simply auto-retargeting opponents after they come out of stealth.

Still, as I said above, I'm not asking for this to be changed at this time. I think there are higher priorities.

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@EnderzShadow.2506 said:What do you want twilight? You said a Ranger pet handily counters all of Mes's stealth and detargeting. So what do you want for Mes?If you want it changed so that a Rangers pet doesn't attack Mesmers after stealth, then that is asking for something special for your class only.

I'm not asking for this change. Just pointing out that AI auto-retargeting affects Mesmers more than others because it directly counters their unique "hide among clones" profession concept.

Good, counters are good for the game.

/Cheers

Counters are part of combat. But I think you're still missing what Praqtos and I are saying about this AI retargeting thing. There are two different but related points here:
  1. Among AIs, Ranger pets are absolutely superior. They're not made of paper and their damage isn't trivial like Mesmer clones. They don't instantly die the way clones prematurely shatter if their target stealths. They don't permanently move onto another target the way Phantasms do when they lose their target (before becoming a paper clone themselves). And Mesmers have no control over their AIs (other than commanding shatters and a couple shuffling skills), unlike Rangers with their pets. Pets also have more range than clones and phantasms, which simply vaporize or freeze if they reach their max range. Apart from these things, all AIs suffer the same pathing issues.
  2. Multiple classes have access to stealth and/or detargets. But none is more dependent on detarget than Mesmer, because a major part of Mesmer's defensive repertoire and survivability is its ability to throw opponents off with clones and hide among them.
    This is completely circumvented by AIs being able to automatically retarget and refocus the real mesmer player with no action on either player's part.
    Whether this is intended behavior or an oversight, it is an extremely powerful ability that disproportionately affects the Mesmer playstyle more than any other spec with access to stealth/detarget. It pretty much shuts down the "can't find the real mesmer" complaints, at least among AI owners.

To put this in perspective, imagine if AIs in this game had the magical ability to automatically kick SLBs out of Beast Mode, with no action on any player's part. Yes this is extreme, but it's to illustrate a point. The point is that the behavior unfairly singles out and defeats one spec's basic design concept. It's far more impactful than simply auto-retargeting opponents after they come out of stealth.

Still, as I said above, I'm not asking for this to be changed at this time. I think there are higher priorities.Congrats, you get it.His claim thats is a counter just as stupid as if I would say: stupid AI pathing was intentionally implemented by Anet, its a counter to pet/AI,counters are good for the game.
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I love how the ranger mains defending sic em choose to look at balance in such a linear way to try and defend rangers unblockable burst potential from safety at such a range. First of all just dodge is rediculouse as a defense because that would apply to any skill no matter the dps etc. 2nd stating it's not meta in conquest or zergs doesn't exclude it from being OP in any other type of gameplay/mode. Also even if ranger is weak in other ways leading to ranger players thinking slb is over all weak that also doesnt mean the ability to combine UU and sic em with RF isn't broken,just means that what ever area on ranger is weak needs brought up(not really any weak areas needing brought up on slb tho lol) saying that soulbeast is weak and that u need sic em just means ur not very good at slb. And if any other areas need buffed slightly fine but that doesnt mean it can't have a broken burst,not as simple as that. In wvw gliding than hit with sic em RF in air-dead,fighting someone in pvp or wvw and ranger pops into range and UU sic em- dead. Fighting someone in wvw ranger pops up on wall in range UU sic em RF-dead. Theres so many more instances where ud be otherwise engaged,have used ur dodges and have no awareness of ranger yet alone a line of sight to get to in time before UU sic em RF -dead. Burst especially unblockable and with such range should not exist in a pvp mode for a plethora of reasons. It needs and will get nerfed eventually just like the rest of the classes have.

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There's really only two issues I have seen with soulbeast and one is similar to the issue with holosmith.

  1. SBeast and Holo have way too much on demand stability. This allows them to enact the mindless playstyle of "pop stab, spam rotation without fear of being interrupted".
  2. Unstoppable union is busted. It's like a turbocharged version of Revs trait that gives them 2 unblockable skills except it affects ALL your skills for 4s as many as you can spam, is on half the CD ( 10s instead of 20s ) and breaks stuns because why not? So now you have "pop stab spam unblockable skills without being interrupted" and the only counterplay left is to evade. This is one of the most overtuned adept traits in the game.

Notice how I didn't mention Sicem? Sicem gives a good damage boost but it's honestly carried by the above two problems. If you could just CC the ranger or block as soon as you see/hear sicem it would be a l2p problem rather than a balance problem.

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@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:There's really only two issues I have seen with soulbeast and one is similar to the issue with holosmith.

  1. SBeast and Holo have way too much on demand stability. This allows them to enact the mindless playstyle of "pop stab, spam rotation without fear of being interrupted".
  2. Unstoppable union is busted. It's like a turbocharged version of Revs trait that gives them 2 unblockable skills except it affects ALL your skills for 4s as many as you can spam, is on half the CD ( 10s instead of 20s ) and breaks stuns because why not? So now you have "pop stab spam unblockable skills without being interrupted" and the only counterplay left is to evade.

Notice how I didn't mention Sicem? Sicem gives a good damage boost but it's honestly carried by the above two problems. If you could just CC the ranger or block as soon as you see/hear sicem it would be a l2p problem rather than a balance problem.

I disagree, the burst is to high especially for the range and relative safety it can be accomplished at. Theres too many instances like I've explained above that even without UU it would be constant one shots which are almost unavoidable and shouldn't exist in pvp modes. If ur engaged and get +1 by ranger at 1800+ range u prob arnt noticing ranger let alone saving a block or dodge incase one shows and if u dont UU means nothing as the burst is still so high and fast-dead.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:There's really only two issues I have seen with soulbeast and one is similar to the issue with holosmith.
  1. SBeast and Holo have way too much on demand stability. This allows them to enact the mindless playstyle of "pop stab, spam rotation without fear of being interrupted".
  2. Unstoppable union is busted. It's like a turbocharged version of Revs trait that gives them 2 unblockable skills except it affects ALL your skills for 4s as many as you can spam, is on half the CD ( 10s instead of 20s ) and breaks stuns because why not? So now you have "pop stab spam unblockable skills without being interrupted" and the only counterplay left is to evade.

Notice how I didn't mention Sicem? Sicem gives a good damage boost but it's honestly carried by the above two problems. If you could just CC the ranger or block as soon as you see/hear sicem it would be a l2p problem rather than a balance problem.

I disagree, the burst is to high especially for the range and relative safety it can be accomplished at. Theres too many instances like I've explained above that even without UU it would be constant one shots which are almost unavoidable and shouldn't exist in pvp modes. If ur engaged and get +1 by ranger at 1800+ range u prob arnt noticing ranger let alone saving a block or dodge incase one shows and if u dont UU means nothing as the burst is still so high and fast-dead.

If you get +1 and didn't save any tools to disengage (blocks, evades, blinks), then you will and should die no matter the profession that does it. Idk why people treat this one gimmick build (Sic 'em Sniper) like it's the be-all end-all of a broken build when it's really not all that strong and doesn't contribute much.

  • You can get one shot from stealth by mesmer
  • A warrior can dash in from over 2000 range and activate berserk and delete you with Arc Divider (happened a few times to me lately)
  • Rev can Phase Traversal from behind a wall and pop you with shackling wave + 25 might stacks + impossible odds
  • Ele can delete you with scepter
  • Deadeye can delete you with malicious backstab
  • Guard can blink to you and absolutely eradicate you
  • Holosmith Photon Forge

Sic 'em sniper is no more effective than these combos and in some cases less so. This really isn't a soubeast specific issue, it's a power creep issue.

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@Zexanima.7851 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:There's really only two issues I have seen with soulbeast and one is similar to the issue with holosmith.
  1. SBeast and Holo have way too much on demand stability. This allows them to enact the mindless playstyle of "pop stab, spam rotation without fear of being interrupted".
  2. Unstoppable union is busted. It's like a turbocharged version of Revs trait that gives them 2 unblockable skills except it affects ALL your skills for 4s as many as you can spam, is on half the CD ( 10s instead of 20s ) and breaks stuns because why not? So now you have "pop stab spam unblockable skills without being interrupted" and the only counterplay left is to evade.

Notice how I didn't mention Sicem? Sicem gives a good damage boost but it's honestly carried by the above two problems. If you could just CC the ranger or block as soon as you see/hear sicem it would be a l2p problem rather than a balance problem.

I disagree, the burst is to high especially for the range and relative safety it can be accomplished at. Theres too many instances like I've explained above that even without UU it would be constant one shots which are almost unavoidable and shouldn't exist in pvp modes. If ur engaged and get +1 by ranger at 1800+ range u prob arnt noticing ranger let alone saving a block or dodge incase one shows and if u dont UU means nothing as the burst is still so high and fast-dead.

If you get +1 and didn't save any tools to disengage (blocks, evades, blinks), then you will and should die no matter the profession that does it. Idk why people treat this one gimmick build (Sic 'em Sniper) like it's the be-all end-all of a broken build when it's really not all that strong and doesn't contribute much.
  • You can get one shot from stealth by mesmer
  • A warrior can dash in from over 2000 range and activate berserk and delete you with Arc Divider (happened a few times to me lately)
  • Rev can Phase Traversal from behind a wall and pop you with shackling wave + 25 might stacks + impossible odds
  • Ele can delete you with scepter
  • Deadeye can delete you with malicious backstab
  • Guard can blink to you and absolutely eradicate you
  • Holosmith Photon Forge

Sic 'em sniper is no more effective than these combos and in some cases less so. This really isn't a soubeast specific issue, it's a power creep issue.

One key difference though: Sic 'Em Sniper does it from 1800+ range without ever having to get close to their target. That is inherently low risk, high reward.

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:There's really only two issues I have seen with soulbeast and one is similar to the issue with holosmith.
  1. SBeast and Holo have way too much on demand stability. This allows them to enact the mindless playstyle of "pop stab, spam rotation without fear of being interrupted".
  2. Unstoppable union is busted. It's like a turbocharged version of Revs trait that gives them 2 unblockable skills except it affects ALL your skills for 4s as many as you can spam, is on half the CD ( 10s instead of 20s ) and breaks stuns because why not? So now you have "pop stab spam unblockable skills without being interrupted" and the only counterplay left is to evade.

Notice how I didn't mention Sicem? Sicem gives a good damage boost but it's honestly carried by the above two problems. If you could just CC the ranger or block as soon as you see/hear sicem it would be a l2p problem rather than a balance problem.

I disagree, the burst is to high especially for the range and relative safety it can be accomplished at. Theres too many instances like I've explained above that even without UU it would be constant one shots which are almost unavoidable and shouldn't exist in pvp modes. If ur engaged and get +1 by ranger at 1800+ range u prob arnt noticing ranger let alone saving a block or dodge incase one shows and if u dont UU means nothing as the burst is still so high and fast-dead.

If you get +1 and didn't save any tools to disengage (blocks, evades, blinks), then you will and should die no matter the profession that does it. Idk why people treat this one gimmick build (Sic 'em Sniper) like it's the be-all end-all of a broken build when it's really not all that strong and doesn't contribute much.
  • You can get one shot from stealth by mesmer
  • A warrior can dash in from over 2000 range and activate berserk and delete you with Arc Divider (happened a few times to me lately)
  • Rev can Phase Traversal from behind a wall and pop you with shackling wave + 25 might stacks + impossible odds
  • Ele can delete you with scepter
  • Deadeye can delete you with malicious backstab
  • Guard can blink to you and absolutely eradicate you
  • Holosmith Photon Forge

Sic 'em sniper is no more effective than these combos and in some cases less so. This really isn't a soubeast specific issue, it's a power creep issue.

One key difference though: Sic 'Em Sniper does it from 1800+ range without ever having to get close to their target. That is inherently low risk, high reward.

Yeah lmao funny how ranger mains choose to ignore the biggest differance- 1800+ range unblockable. It's pointless arguing with them,ull just get frustrated with their delusional reasoning their using to defend their class,and they know their being that way. If they dont than I'm sry for them and let them think what they want lol.

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@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:There's really only two issues I have seen with soulbeast and one is similar to the issue with holosmith.

  1. SBeast and Holo have way too much on demand stability. This allows them to enact the mindless playstyle of "pop stab, spam rotation without fear of being interrupted".
  2. Unstoppable union is busted. It's like a turbocharged version of Revs trait that gives them 2 unblockable skills except it affects ALL your skills for 4s as many as you can spam, is on half the CD ( 10s instead of 20s ) and breaks stuns because why not? So now you have "pop stab spam unblockable skills without being interrupted" and the only counterplay left is to evade. This is one of the most overtuned adept traits in the game.

Notice how I didn't mention Sicem? Sicem gives a good damage boost but it's honestly carried by the above two problems. If you could just CC the ranger or block as soon as you see/hear sicem it would be a l2p problem rather than a balance problem.

And finally someone pointed out the real problem. I had pointed this out in several threads but chose not to bring it up in this thread because I was tired of repeating myself. Regardless, the actual problem here isn't the raw damage output, it's the unholy duration of unblockable that Soulbeasts have access to:

^ That's a ridiculous amount of unblockable duration, that has no real CD cycle even. I've been saying it for months now, these are the compromising changes that Arenanet should give us in the next patch, to keep everyone happy:

  • Either halve the durations of the unblockable skills, or significantly increase the CDs, maybe both.
  • Keep Sic Em the way it is now, but it should have it's range halved. This would make the Ranger have to get closer to its target, allowing the target more counter-play gap closing options vs. the ranged. This change will nerf the hell out of mid to low tier Ranger pew, which is what everyone is complaining about. On the other hand, it won't effect higher tiered Ranger play very much at all, so it won't be a nerf really within the tiers where Rangers struggle vs. other classes to begin with.
  • Additionally, there needs to be damage redistribution amongst Ranger weapon skills concerning Longbow & Greatsword. Right now all of the damage is front loaded into 3 skills: Rapid Fire, Maul, Worldly Impact. This creates an effect where the build structures can easily nub stomp around with 1HKO or 2HKO or at least 3HKO, because nubs don't dodge roll or LOS. But at higher tiers, this is why Rangers struggle. Veteran players can dodge those 3 very telegraphed skills very easily, and then just face tank all of the other lower damage attacks while their defensive CDs come back in preparation to dodge the important 3 skill damage chain again and again. If the damage as redistributed more evenly amongst all the skills on LB/GS, Rangers could actually brawl with other classes instead of having play like a bursty ranged Thief, which would make them more viable at higher tiers. It would also serve to satisfy those who believe that Ranger has to much damage, because the 3 attack chain would have a bit of damage shaved off from it.

Anyway, here's to hoping this post doesn't get scrolled off and forgotten too quickly. People need to be reading this one.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:There's really only two issues I have seen with soulbeast and one is similar to the issue with holosmith.
  1. SBeast and Holo have way too much on demand stability. This allows them to enact the mindless playstyle of "pop stab, spam rotation without fear of being interrupted".
  2. Unstoppable union is busted. It's like a turbocharged version of Revs trait that gives them 2 unblockable skills except it affects ALL your skills for 4s as many as you can spam, is on half the CD ( 10s instead of 20s ) and breaks stuns because why not? So now you have "pop stab spam unblockable skills without being interrupted" and the only counterplay left is to evade. This is one of the most overtuned adept traits in the game.

Notice how I didn't mention Sicem? Sicem gives a good damage boost but it's honestly carried by the above two problems. If you could just CC the ranger or block as soon as you see/hear sicem it would be a l2p problem rather than a balance problem.

And finally someone pointed out the real problem. I had pointed this out in several threads but chose not to bring it up in this thread because I was tired of repeating myself. Regardless, the actual problem here isn't the raw damage output, it's the unholy duration of unblockable that Soulbeasts have access to:

^ That's a ridiculous amount of unblockable duration, that has no real CD cycle even. I've been saying it for months now, these are the compromising changes that Arenanet should give us in the next patch, to keep everyone happy:
  • Either halve the durations of the unblockable skills, or significantly increase the CDs, maybe both.
  • Keep Sic Em the way it is now, but it should have it's range halved. This would make the Ranger have to get closer to its target, allowing the target more counter-play gap closing options vs. the ranged. This change will nerf the hell out of mid to low tier Ranger pew, which is what everyone is complaining about. On the other hand, it won't effect higher tiered Ranger play very much at all, so it won't be a nerf really within the tiers where Rangers struggle vs. other classes to begin with.
  • Additionally, there needs to be damage redistribution amongst Ranger weapon skills concerning Longbow & Greatsword. Right now all of the damage is front loaded into 3 skills: Rapid Fire, Maul, Worldly Impact. This creates an effect where the build structures can easily nub stomp around with 1HKO or 2HKO or at least 3HKO, because nubs don't dodge roll or LOS. But at higher tiers, this is why Rangers struggle. Veteran players can dodge those 3 very telegraphed skills very easily, and then just face tank all of the other lower damage attacks while their defensive CDs come back in preparation to dodge the important 3 skill damage chain again and again. If the damage as redistributed more evenly amongst all the skills on LB/GS, Rangers could actually brawl with other classes instead of having play like a bursty ranged Thief, which would make them more viable at higher tiers. It would also serve to satisfy those who believe that Ranger has to much damage, because the 3 attack chain would have a bit of damage shaved off from it.

Anyway, here's to hoping this post doesn't get scrolled off and forgotten too quickly. People need to be reading this one.

Do you have any idea how much hate and personal attacks I got here last time I mentioned Unblockable Union?

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:There's really only two issues I have seen with soulbeast and one is similar to the issue with holosmith.
  1. SBeast and Holo have way too much on demand stability. This allows them to enact the mindless playstyle of "pop stab, spam rotation without fear of being interrupted".
  2. Unstoppable union is busted. It's like a turbocharged version of Revs trait that gives them 2 unblockable skills except it affects ALL your skills for 4s as many as you can spam, is on half the CD ( 10s instead of 20s ) and breaks stuns because why not? So now you have "pop stab spam unblockable skills without being interrupted" and the only counterplay left is to evade. This is one of the most overtuned adept traits in the game.

Notice how I didn't mention Sicem? Sicem gives a good damage boost but it's honestly carried by the above two problems. If you could just CC the ranger or block as soon as you see/hear sicem it would be a l2p problem rather than a balance problem.

And finally someone pointed out the real problem. I had pointed this out in several threads but chose not to bring it up in this thread because I was tired of repeating myself. Regardless, the actual problem here isn't the raw damage output, it's the unholy duration of unblockable that Soulbeasts have access to:

^ That's a ridiculous amount of unblockable duration, that has no real CD cycle even. I've been saying it for months now, these are the compromising changes that Arenanet should give us in the next patch, to keep everyone happy:
  • Either halve the durations of the unblockable skills, or significantly increase the CDs, maybe both.
  • Keep Sic Em the way it is now, but it should have it's range halved. This would make the Ranger have to get closer to its target, allowing the target more counter-play gap closing options vs. the ranged. This change will nerf the hell out of mid to low tier Ranger pew, which is what everyone is complaining about. On the other hand, it won't effect higher tiered Ranger play very much at all, so it won't be a nerf really within the tiers where Rangers struggle vs. other classes to begin with.
  • Additionally, there needs to be damage redistribution amongst Ranger weapon skills concerning Longbow & Greatsword. Right now all of the damage is front loaded into 3 skills: Rapid Fire, Maul, Worldly Impact. This creates an effect where the build structures can easily nub stomp around with 1HKO or 2HKO or at least 3HKO, because nubs don't dodge roll or LOS. But at higher tiers, this is why Rangers struggle. Veteran players can dodge those 3 very telegraphed skills very easily, and then just face tank all of the other lower damage attacks while their defensive CDs come back in preparation to dodge the important 3 skill damage chain again and again. If the damage as redistributed more evenly amongst all the skills on LB/GS, Rangers could actually brawl with other classes instead of having play like a bursty ranged Thief, which would make them more viable at higher tiers. It would also serve to satisfy those who believe that Ranger has to much damage, because the 3 attack chain would have a bit of damage shaved off from it.

Anyway, here's to hoping this post doesn't get scrolled off and forgotten too quickly. People need to be reading this one.

Do you have any idea how much hate and personal attacks I got here last time I mentioned Unblockable Union?

.... It's because of your forum portrait. Or everyone hates you one of the two ?

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@"DaShi.1368" said:TBF, a lot of Mesmer players came out and acknowledged that and where their class was OP. This was against a lot of Ranger players that just wanted Mesmer removed from the game. Ranger players here not only deny any OP Ranger skills, but actually ask for buffs to them. Ranger players have always done this. I've posted an example earlier in this thread where the Ranger forum went berserk when an OP skill was taken away. A skill so OP that Anet fixed it in a day. But many Ranger players claimed that it wasn't OP and that their class needed it. It's crazy the defense of OPness and hypocrisy in this thread by Ranger players.

Plenty of rangers have stated that sic em burst is broken in WvW and the like - even Glad who is probably the most likely source for bringing it to a wider public attention stated over and over again "this is absolutely broken"

So tarring an entire profession playerbase with the brush of "all rangers suck and deny anything OP" whilst then also claiming that Mesmer players are some paragons of virtue and game balance would be hilarious - if it wasnt so offensively insulting and biased.

We dont need more of that in this community.

At least Twilight Tempest makes sensible observations.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

^ That's a ridiculous amount of unblockable duration, that has no real CD cycle even. I've been saying it for months now, these are the compromising changes that Arenanet should give us in the next patch, to keep everyone happy:

Clarion Bond only works for the pet dmg though right? The ranger themselves wouldnt get the unblockable buff as you cant be merged and swap pets.Not suggesting that you are claiming it does - but its worth clarifying for people.

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@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:What kind of a sacrifice is that if the SLB makes much better use of said "terrible AI" pet's stats anyhow? On the one hand you guys say "our pets are fine because they're squishy, bumbling AIs that can hardly land hits." Then you justify inheriting the full force of their stats on the grounds you're giving up your oh-so-valuable AI pet. Which is it?

One of the design flaws of the ranger in the first place is that is has worse power coeffecients on all of it's weapons compared to other classes, which isn't made up for by having a pet like Anet obviously intentionally planned.

Anet needs to reshuffle some of the power from soulbeast into core ranger before hitting anything with the nerf bat. It should be clear by now that their dumb AI doesn't make up for anything at all. They're tools and utility, and rarely a steady source of damage. And you guys need to understand that soulbeast will most likely always be the ranger's best pure damage option because of how the profession is designed. Meaning that any nerf that puts it behind other damage dealers effectively kills that role for rangers.

Those stacking damage modifiers I see in the opening post? Perfectly valid to bring up, but why not mention the fact that ranger at the same time has some of the worst scaling in the game when it comes to the power stat? Otherwise you're not painting the entire picture.

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@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

  1. SBeast and Holo have way too much on demand stability. This allows them to enact the mindless playstyle of "pop stab, spam rotation without fear of being interrupted".

Too much? Ranger got one source of stability removed from the core class to make room for the stability stance, which function just like the warrior one, or the guardian stab shout, or anything else comparable. Then it has the elite command skill, which isn't exatly on demand with its cast time and how you can interrupt it. That is hardly too much.

To add to that, it's one of the few classes that never get the lazy "when interrupted etc, proc X skill with a stunbreak" trait. Dolyak Stance would have been a prime candidate for a trait like that. Like dragonhunter with its stability trap, or core warrior with its stances.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

This is the problem with these threads. How am I supposed to take someone seriously when they don't even realize that Clarion Bond can't possibly work on soulbeast? It's a pet swap trait. Every pet swap trait force you to unmerge for it to be used. The effect is then applied to the pet.

No serious build is gonna run a warhorn for call of the wild, a signet that provides no other useful benefit than the unblockable active AND unstoppable union at the sime time.

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