how do you beat good guild groups other than blobbing them down?

[MalinBlume.9314]

currently on JQ linked with AR and we're facing FC and HoD

I want to know some insights from some previous commanders/regular core players wondering how to BEAT or at least fight better against this group with these components:

• full comms
• aware players
• and a group with a fair share of supports (firebrands, and scrappers, and maybe other variations)

just want to know what you guys think on how to fight the groups listed below.

starting with the people my server is facing rn:HoD has one good guild that I know of and that's Midnight Mafia never fought them

but as for FC, they have some guilds that run small but somehow manage to just absolutely blow up our pugmanders and sometimes even our full 50 in comms:

• TBT (they are super small each time but extremely good)
• PMA (they ran open yesterday and absolutely farmed 4 of our really good commanders, the core was solid)
• VR (haven't really ran this week but I'll just mention because when I was on TC, the one thing I remember was Maguuma's VR casually farming our EBG keep like its nothing)
• Tkx (they had like 13-15 people but ran like 6 scourges and blew up 42 people in squad last night)
• there are other groups but they probably haven't tagged this week
• eXa (I haven't really seen them run small but I do recall them being on FC and actually being one of the really good guilds who used portal bomb really well)

I'll also mention these other guilds which are just extremely broken... (as in skilled)

• Wavy (well.. this one's pretty self-explanatory. These guys are just extremely good, they won two GvG tourneys and managed to get 5-0 twice in the finals. even more to say they managed to beat really extraordinary groups like VR, RISE, TBT)
• DED (guys recently moved to BP alliance apparently and have been rumored to be "farming Cookie"-- which is actually a feat because runs massive)
• RISE (I have to say this group is still solid. though i haven't seen them in GvG's. their experience in T1 has really tempered their abilities)
• XVX (these guys are also quite good along with RISE. and are full of experienced players)
• KEK (i can never take these guys seriously because of their name but they're skilled)
• Hate (bullyfoot mostly blobs nowadays but they're still quite solid)
• VII
• DI5
• BP

Here are some really decent groups I know on my server:

• SF (they run open and the commander's good, but when they run closed they have the basics down and have a really good comp (as in rev heavy))
• RED (they have some very aware players and insightful ones)
• VP (VP runs closed most of the time but I saw them beat back VR a couple of times in a scrimmage on our BL)
• OnS (onslaught has just been known to be really decent, even though they run big, I do believe they have the basics down and even more)

[javascript.7924]

easy. Don't stand in the red circles

[MalinBlume.9314]

EASY for you to say until 5 necros strip you of all your stab, pull you on a mesmer, knock around while getting destroyed by 5 different red circles that are almost in the same place. and the same thing happens to half of your group.

and when you manage to survive, you can only give stab to the players who are support and manage to survive -- ... no dmg

[Queen Anastasia.7103]

From a regular player pov:

As much as it's loathed among players, pin snipe squad might be your answer. If they don't have a backup that can immediately take over most guilds will fold once com goes down/dead. This is what separates good from bad. If the com is mes then pin snipe will be more difficult since distortion/stealth can throw off + avoid incoming snipes but if they're firebrand then feel free to chain a few soulbeast's unblockable + sic em. It doesn't necessarily mean produce a down, but enough to chunk off a large portion of HP in hopes that they backpedal out of position. Good boon uptime (protection) + sources of dmg reduction will render the pew pew a little less effective though. Good luck.

[MalinBlume.9314]

never really thought of the above HAHA. but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to WIN.

[Dawdler.8521]

Just dodge.

Or, in a surprise twist, bring an equally good group to fight them. I really dont understand why this is such a mystery. Its just the same as Xv1, on a larger scale - if you get totally destroyed.... have a better player fight him or bring even more players. Is that always possible to do? No. Of course not. There may not even be any guild or pug raids on. But 90% of the time when I see these "good" guilds come in and level the place, its because my own server fails at meeting them. Often because our guilds want dibs and then get crushed one by one until someone ragequit, rather than work together.

Anyway, I dont even understand why this thread exist. How can it exist? This forum says zergbusting is impossible and WvW is dead. The claim that 15 people blew up 42 is clearly an impossibility since the 42 would just insta revive any downed because super OP downed state make it impossible for lower numbers to win no matter how skilled they are, right? If this thread is true then it invalidates their claims.

[XenesisII.1540]

Make sure your pugmanders are not running berserker type setups, their priority should be to live as long as possible not do maximum damage.

Most guilds have two advantages, coordinated bombs with strips, and organized groups for better front line and boon balling. Certain groups like vr will do a lot of mesmer pulls into bombs, especially on walls, others use veils a lot.

Your pugmanders have to make sure not to lead people directly into these bombs, and pugs need to watch enemy movements and dodge appropriately. And for the love of all that is holy, if you're going to run from a fight do it early and don't just show up pretending you're gonna fight then run and let your entire zerg get eaten the entire run back to the nearest owned structure, it's the most embarrassing thing to see.

Bring boon strips... lots of it... like a lot... like... really.. a.. lot. To even have a chance at denting those groups. And if you don't have enough of that and mostly rangers.... well.. pin snipe... they should at least be good at that.

[ArchonWing.9480]

You don't. Most of these guilds are experienced enough to not fall for clouding/lure/choke tactics that work on standard pug blobs. All you can really do is kill their pugs that try to hang off of them, but that doesn't mean you're doing anything. Your best bet is to bore them to death with hit and run PPT so they log early. I guess you could hire a pin snipe party.

A lot of people aren't going to be able to beat most of these, much less give you advice on how. I guess you could try to practice more with people you trust, form a guild and try to seek challenging fights constantly but the amount of people willing to put in that kind of effort in this stage of the game is well.... limited.

Oh yea, ffs, if they've been in your keep for 30 minutes and not taking it; they're intentionally doing that so you'll run in and die over and over again. Please stop falling for that.

[XenesisII.1540]

The ones that run fat like 20-30 members, you won't be able to beat with just pugs, unless there's also a guild in there as the frontline, but even then...The smaller guilds 10-20 can be beaten with pugs, seen it happen to some of the those guilds mentioned.

[rng.1024]

There are 5 components you will need:

• A good bomb
• Just enough sustain to survive one
• Players with self-awareness and skill
• A commander who knows when to push and when to resustain, aswell as good positioning
• Metaoptimal build/comp setup

With these you can take on bigger yet less organized groups with some effort, however at some point the number advantage will come into play and if they get a chance to resustain your job will be 2× harder from there. The best use of this kind of group is to help the zone commander deal with bigger groups or fight off other similarly sized groups.

[MalinBlume.9314]

@ArchonWing.9480 yeah, it is quite hard to cloud most of these groups. And yeah... getting farmed in EBG keep. FC had a 2.0-3.0 KDR in EU timezone simply by farming our keep and HoD's and the pugs who sadly kept going in yesterday as well QQ. Is it possible, with enough AC's and other defensive sieges to repel a decent group of 50?

@XenesisII.1540 Yeah, #4 is a big one I've noticed our groups have been lacking. On public raids, I see we have like 6 spellbreakers which are really good for boonstrips, but they are instantly corrupted. If it's a quick fight with our comps I'm confident we can take these groups out but in the long term, we'll get out-corrupted with the bubble cooldown being definitely longer than that OP Devouring Darkness and Axe 3 on Scourge.

@Dawdler.8521 Yeah dodging is a big thing. Many players I notice play with like 60 FPS and less than 60 ping... but have brain lag. And for that group that beat the 42, it was within chokes a couple of times and their damage just synced really well. I've seen groups like DED and VP pull it off too with like 15 people.Sure they can res on the spot but if it's a tight space and everyone's getting bursted by a synced bomb then well.. it's over. (and if you think about the shade radius, hits 10 people max and wells are pulsing)... and that damage is even worse when they got a really good bubble on you and they bomb you with absolutely no boons, no stab so you're getting feared around with their spike and no time to react to the downs to MI.have to admit though, our group had like 3 soulbeasts which were useless . . .

Thanks for all the answers though, I'll keep it mind and be sure to pass it on

[Cyninja.2954]

@MalinBlume.9314 said:EASY for you to say until 5 necros strip you of all your stab, pull you on a mesmer, knock around while getting destroyed by 5 different red circles that are almost in the same place. and the same thing happens to half of your group.

and when you manage to survive, you can only give stab to the players who are support and manage to survive -- ... no dmg

If you are being engaged upon from a smoke, you were not paying attention to the enemy group smoking.

If you were not engaged from a smoke and had 5 necros strip you, you were out of position.

Smaller static groups have the advantage in that they are often on voice communication, organized, concentrated and in sync. Their main disadvantage is numbers versus a full blob. Depending on group size, you can do some of the following:

• more defensive setup classes. Run celestial over berserker on necromancers/elementalists for example. Obviously you are not in control what other people join your public squad with
• organize groups. 1 support firebrand and 1 support tempest or scrapper per group if possible
• stack tight. If you are engaged by a group half your size, their attacks will be shared across more players. Obviously if you are not stacked, the initial bomb will tear apart part of you squad removing your number advantage
• practice and training. small explanation on which skills to use when. not every player understands their class. reminding your guardians that their group is relying on stability can go a long way
• remove useless classes. This is the part where you remove rangers, thiefs, mesmers and other non viable blob classes (1-2 mesmers are fine for veil and portals, 1-2 thiefs are fine for scouting and cleanup, flex slots can go to unconventional dps classes)

In general, depending on how good the opposing static is, you just might be powerless. We are talking public incompetence versus organized groups.

[Dediggefedde.4961]

Usually it's pretty simple.if the enemy is skilled you either need to become skilled as well (guild-zerg), compensate with numbers (public) or play with tactics and terrain (public/guilds).In a guild you can improve players skills by recommendations, trainings or supervisors. In publics you can improve awareness and skills only somewhat be recommendations and pre-commands.Choice of terrain and tactics, such as smoke-blasts, veils, necro-ports, superspeed, portal-bombs, or just hiding around a corner can give an enorm advantage, but is easy to fail and requires commander skills.

[reddie.5861]

cloud... if u cant beat it u cloud all around them. if u all die on the spot then obviously u go cloud so only 1 or 2 die while ur hammering on em from all sides.

[Honest John.4673]

Hey kid, wanna join a guild?

also

who is this DI5 guild I've never heard of them, how did they get a numeral in their guild name?

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@"MalinBlume.9314" said:currently on JQ linked with AR and we're facing FC and HoD

I want to know some insights from some previous commanders/regular core players wondering how to BEAT or at least fight better against this group with these components:

• full comms
• aware players
• and a group with a fair share of supports (firebrands, and scrappers, and maybe other variations)

just want to know what you guys think on how to fight the groups listed below.

starting with the people my server is facing rn:HoD has one good guild that I know of and that's Midnight Mafia never fought them

but as for FC, they have some guilds that run small but somehow manage to just absolutely blow up our pugmanders and sometimes even our full 50 in comms:

• TBT (they are super small each time but extremely good)
• PMA (they ran open yesterday and absolutely farmed 4 of our really good commanders, the core was solid)
• VR (haven't really ran this week but I'll just mention because when I was on TC, the one thing I remember was Maguuma's VR casually farming our EBG keep like its nothing)
• Tkx (they had like 13-15 people but ran like 6 scourges and blew up 42 people in squad last night)
• there are other groups but they probably haven't tagged this week
• eXa (I haven't really seen them run small but I do recall them being on FC and actually being one of the really good guilds who used portal bomb really well)

I'll also mention these other guilds which are just extremely broken... (as in skilled)

• Wavy (well.. this one's pretty self-explanatory. These guys are just extremely good, they won two GvG tourneys and managed to get 5-0 twice in the finals. even more to say they managed to beat really extraordinary groups like VR, RISE, TBT)
• DED (guys recently moved to BP alliance apparently and have been rumored to be "farming Cookie"-- which is actually a feat because runs massive)
• RISE (I have to say this group is still solid. though i haven't seen them in GvG's. their experience in T1 has really tempered their abilities)
• XVX (these guys are also quite good along with RISE. and are full of experienced players)
• KEK (i can never take these guys seriously because of their name but they're skilled)
• Hate (bullyfoot mostly blobs nowadays but they're still quite solid)
• VII
• DI5
• BP

Here are some really decent groups I know on my server:

• SF (they run open and the commander's good, but when they run closed they have the basics down and have a really good comp (as in rev heavy))
• RED (they have some very aware players and insightful ones)
• VP (VP runs closed most of the time but I saw them beat back VR a couple of times in a scrimmage on our BL)
• OnS (onslaught has just been known to be really decent, even though they run big, I do believe they have the basics down and even more)

Those guilds you mention in FC are indeed strong.And at least half of those other guilds you listed should be on BG/link.You fight good guilds with good guilds.Unfortunately, when you stack good guilds on one or two server...

[Honest John.4673]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:Those guilds you mention in FC are indeed strong.And at least half of those other guilds you listed should be on BG/link.You fight good guilds with good guilds.

He listed 9 guilds that aren't on his server or FC, only 2 of which are on BG

Unfortunately, when you stack good guilds on one or two server...

They actually get to fight eachother with regularity? Or should we all destack with barely any guilds left (relatively speaking) so we can maybe get 1 fight against another good guild once a week (if that) when the schedules, matchups and planets align.

[Strider Pj.2193]

With a bigger group while they’re AFK.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@"MalinBlume.9314" said:currently on JQ linked with AR and we're facing FC and HoD

I want to know some insights from some previous commanders/regular core players wondering how to BEAT or at least fight better against this group with these components:

• full comms
• aware players
• and a group with a fair share of supports (firebrands, and scrappers, and maybe other variations)

just want to know what you guys think on how to fight the groups listed below.

starting with the people my server is facing rn:HoD has one good guild that I know of and that's Midnight Mafia never fought them

but as for FC, they have some guilds that run small but somehow manage to just absolutely blow up our pugmanders and sometimes even our full 50 in comms:

• TBT (they are super small each time but extremely good)
• PMA (they ran open yesterday and absolutely farmed 4 of our really good commanders, the core was solid)
• VR (haven't really ran this week but I'll just mention because when I was on TC, the one thing I remember was Maguuma's VR casually farming our EBG keep like its nothing)
• Tkx (they had like 13-15 people but ran like 6 scourges and blew up 42 people in squad last night)
• there are other groups but they probably haven't tagged this week
• eXa (I haven't really seen them run small but I do recall them being on FC and actually being one of the really good guilds who used portal bomb really well)

I'll also mention these other guilds which are just extremely broken... (as in skilled)

• Wavy (well.. this one's pretty self-explanatory. These guys are just extremely good, they won two GvG tourneys and managed to get 5-0 twice in the finals. even more to say they managed to beat really extraordinary groups like VR, RISE, TBT)
• DED (guys recently moved to BP alliance apparently and have been rumored to be "farming Cookie"-- which is actually a feat because runs massive)
• RISE (I have to say this group is still solid. though i haven't seen them in GvG's. their experience in T1 has really tempered their abilities)
• XVX (these guys are also quite good along with RISE. and are full of experienced players)
• KEK (i can never take these guys seriously because of their name but they're skilled)
• Hate (bullyfoot mostly blobs nowadays but they're still quite solid)
• VII
• DI5
• BP

Here are some really decent groups I know on my server:

• SF (they run open and the commander's good, but when they run closed they have the basics down and have a really good comp (as in rev heavy))
• RED (they have some very aware players and insightful ones)
• VP (VP runs closed most of the time but I saw them beat back VR a couple of times in a scrimmage on our BL)
• OnS (onslaught has just been known to be really decent, even though they run big, I do believe they have the basics down and even more)

Those guilds you mention in FC are indeed strong.And at least half of those other guilds you listed should be on BG/link.You fight good guilds with good guilds.Unfortunately, when you stack good guilds on one or two server...

Why post factually incorrect information?

Is it to further the BG is evil narrative?

And if you don’t know, why post?

Man... I never thought I’d want a downvote button..,

[EremiteAngel.9765]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@"MalinBlume.9314" said:currently on JQ linked with AR and we're facing FC and HoD

I want to know some insights from some previous commanders/regular core players wondering how to BEAT or at least fight better against this group with these components:

• full comms
• aware players
• and a group with a fair share of supports (firebrands, and scrappers, and maybe other variations)

just want to know what you guys think on how to fight the groups listed below.

starting with the people my server is facing rn:HoD has one good guild that I know of and that's Midnight Mafia never fought them

but as for FC, they have some guilds that run small but somehow manage to just absolutely blow up our pugmanders and sometimes even our full 50 in comms:

• TBT (they are super small each time but extremely good)
• PMA (they ran open yesterday and absolutely farmed 4 of our really good commanders, the core was solid)
• VR (haven't really ran this week but I'll just mention because when I was on TC, the one thing I remember was Maguuma's VR casually farming our EBG keep like its nothing)
• Tkx (they had like 13-15 people but ran like 6 scourges and blew up 42 people in squad last night)
• there are other groups but they probably haven't tagged this week
• eXa (I haven't really seen them run small but I do recall them being on FC and actually being one of the really good guilds who used portal bomb really well)

I'll also mention these other guilds which are just extremely broken... (as in skilled)

• Wavy (well.. this one's pretty self-explanatory. These guys are just extremely good, they won two GvG tourneys and managed to get 5-0 twice in the finals. even more to say they managed to beat really extraordinary groups like VR, RISE, TBT)
• DED (guys recently moved to BP alliance apparently and have been rumored to be "farming Cookie"-- which is actually a feat because runs massive)
• RISE (I have to say this group is still solid. though i haven't seen them in GvG's. their experience in T1 has really tempered their abilities)
• XVX (these guys are also quite good along with RISE. and are full of experienced players)
• KEK (i can never take these guys seriously because of their name but they're skilled)
• Hate (bullyfoot mostly blobs nowadays but they're still quite solid)
• VII
• DI5
• BP

Here are some really decent groups I know on my server:

• SF (they run open and the commander's good, but when they run closed they have the basics down and have a really good comp (as in rev heavy))
• RED (they have some very aware players and insightful ones)
• VP (VP runs closed most of the time but I saw them beat back VR a couple of times in a scrimmage on our BL)
• OnS (onslaught has just been known to be really decent, even though they run big, I do believe they have the basics down and even more)

Those guilds you mention in FC are indeed strong.And at least half of those other guilds you listed should be on BG/link.You fight good guilds with good guilds.Unfortunately, when you stack good guilds on one or two server...

Why post factually incorrect information?

Is it to further the BG is evil narrative?

And if you don’t know, why post?

Man... I never thought I’d want a downvote button..,

I hope for your health's sake that you are commenting with an even emotion =DHopefully you're not getting emotional over something or someone that is of little consequence in your life.Of course, if you just meant to be a white knight and be critical towards me, please allow me to direct you to this thread.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/78559/tips-to-manage-salt-and-toxicity-in-wvw

[SloRules.3560]

Get good...

[Tiawal.2351]

@"MalinBlume.9314" said:how to BEAT or at least fight better against

One step at a time. Don't expect to win, that will happen later -- weeks, months maybe years... Now just fight them, and focus on getting better. Consider yourself lucky when there's something difficult to fight, something that can't be beaten easily. Improving is the most fun, enjoy it.

If you need specific advices, find experienced players (who are good at doing it, beware of fakes) and ask questions. Learn from friends and enemies. Consider using meta builds and composition, they are better than nothing when starting, but don't be afraid to try out new things, keeping only what works.

To avoid frustration, know your players and be clear on what you want: some players just want to win, they won't follow for long otherwise. Others just want to cap things, they don't want to waste time with fights, while others don't mind doing a bit of everything. And then there are those who just want a challenge, they won't leave after a loss. You can't please all of these, don't be confused when half of squad leaves after a wipe, that' normal. That's how you can find out who is who. If there aren't enough fighters, you may need to mix it with a bit of PPT to keep numbers high enough, just know that in a real fight those extra are just "meat- shields", only those who love to fight will get better and contribute more in time.

Not knowing how and still fighting against better groups, is the greatest challenge. Maybe is too much, depends on how much challenge you want. If you don't find it fun, just give up - no shame in it. Instead leading, find a good group -- not to be carried by them as too many do, but to learn form them for a time. Will be far easier to lead after knowing what to do. Will still be a real challenge, but at least not an impossible one. Unless you love the impossible, in which case good luck and have fun!

[MalinBlume.9314]

@Cyninja.2954Yes, you're right haha. Most of the time we should be paying attention to the stealths. Actually, what I realized just now is what these groups do when WE stealth is they have an scrapper or two literally on us spamming reveal making our stealth useless. Perhaps it is meta to do the same HAHA, but it's definitely working.

@Honest John.4673Di5 is on Blackgate I believe. Not sure if it's Di5 or DiS, but I remember facing them when AR vs. BG and they were pretty good against OnS.

@Tiawal.2351Yeah man, believe this reply has a deep message in being patient and all of this being in a game. I am a competitive person and I strive to be better... (which would also increase the efficiency of getting bags). Part of the reason why I like WvW over PVE is because you have to--in most cases-- think of the ways you're going to get bags instead of following a commander like a robot. I feel a sense of accomplishment when defeating others. But you're right, it doesn't come over night and... having these good groups to fight is probably one of the best content right now. Imagine a game without really strong enemies and you would W key everyone XD.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

have every one in each party target and focus a different enemy fb

don't charge without at least one bar of endurance and weapon swap up for the double dodge

try not to dump everything into one bomb, harder to do with pugs but try to do at least two bombs each push

don't be too aggressive, count their dodges (and yours), keep in mind your bomb cd's

run meta comps, if a party doesn't have stab try to give them at least an off meta support (like tempest or druid if there is one) and have them try to all focus down one person at a time while clouding (have every party sort out who is gonna be the target caller), be positive, don't tunnel vision or try and fail over and over

[MalinBlume.9314]

I notice that dodging is a very common answer here too and I agree--especially in a long term fight. For glassy specs like scourge (which you absolutely need to dodge and survive to do damage later on), is it preferable to take dual superior sigil of energy over other sigils--if not on one weapon.

[this is for like a long term fight situation or GvG]