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PvP Mesmer Out of META


Jack.8124

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:It would help if the currently power-crept stuff like Holo, SB, Rev, SLB, Scrapper, and maybe Scourge and FB were toned down. I would prefer reverse-power-creeping over more power-creeping as a means to level the playing field.

Anet's next power creep move is to just get rid of health bars all together. We don't need em, since everything dies in under a second.

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@Xstein.2187 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:I don't even care about overall balance.
FIRST
they need to:
  1. Fix the blatant biasses present in the game. God, they are supposed to be professionals
    .
  2. Bring
    "Trait Choice"
    back to the mesmer trait lines.Right now there are obvious 'trait winners' and obvious 'dead traits' as well. You literally don't even need to make trait decisions when playing a mesmer anymore. They are basically made for you as long as you know how to read what the traits do.This wasn't always the case..
  3. Make mesmer fun to play again..
  4. Undo core mesmer trait nerfs since core mesmer was never meta since before HoT, make the correct balancing decisions that should have been made a long time ago, and bring all the elites in the game in line with the cores..
  5. Quite listening to streamers who don't know what they are talking about or present themselves as knowing more about a class then they do.

    .
  6. Bring back the people you banned or quite who wouldn't have been banned or quite if mesmer was handled correctly in the past to begin with..
  7. Quite making broken promises or if you do so, apologize."Chronomancy is the only specialization allowed access to this powerful effect" my butt.

Yeah the problem with #3 is that it makes unfun for everyone elseAnd about #5 you can listen from Tournament of Legends champions as well... Sindrener also thinks mesmers were ridiculous
  1. I'm not saying that it wasn't unfun to fight against or still isn't unfun to fight againstI'm just saying right now mesmer (not just mirage) is not fun to play and probably
    STILL
    isn't fun to fight against as well. Just because a class is unfun to fight against does not automatically mean its fun to play or vice versa, these are exclusive issues.. So no, that is not a problem with #3.

  1. I didn't say that all streamers were incorrect. Steamers are free to make whatever comments they want, balancing decisions just shouldn't be made based on that(unless the streamer uses data-but then it should be based on the data presented). To do so without using data would be an appeal to authority logical fallacy. It doesn't mean such authority is always wrong. However, that doesn't mean using authority for decisions on its own accord or just because they said something isn't fallacious reasoning.

I agree with you then :)

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@Alatar.7364 said:

@"Eddbopkins.2630" said:Omg ur outa of meta for the 1st time in 7 years? Cant play this game no more....#sarcasm....how about u main a ele then u have the right to complain about being out of meta.

I'm sad about ele too, but ATM mesmer is completely out of scene.. I hope anet balance ele too... This is not a counter balance post...

For the most part Mesmer is so called
"out of meta"
because of poor mind state of most of its players. Mesmer has been broken for so so so long that most of them are no longer able to tell the difference between Broken OP and Normal, so now when its not pathetic ez mode they think it is not viable, while the truth is it is perfectly viable
(some of its Meta builds at least)
just no longer broken.Yeah yeah I get your point.. but you are wrong. Mesmer IS actually bad at the moment.
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@Daishi.6027 said:If mesmer was carried by build before, does that mean Rangers, Engies, and Wars are getting carried by their builds now?Having builds that have equal or more defensive options, and either high burst or more reliable damage?

Yes. The above classes need to be looked at and need changes made to them as well. Heralds might also need tuning, though I am willing to kind of hold the conclusion on that due to how allergic they are to conditions. No classes should be able to attain a build or rotation that walls any counterplay out. That's the only way the meta is going to become autonomous.

Does that mean thief, has been carried for years? Because until PoF dropped, and excluding S1 Chronobunk (which was gutted immediately) Mes was pretty much easily replaced in slot by thief if not Portal since pre HoT, and later double moa?

No. And portal nerf needs to be reverted anyway.

I'm usually the first one to come to the forums running my mouth about mesmer, but there are several nerfs that were done before the previous round that need to be addressed at least in part, IMO.

That being said.

I want to see where this goes. If they are slowly taking all of the overperforming specs down a peg, I want to see what the game looks like after Spellbreaker, Soulbeast, Scrapper and Holosmith get touched before I start yammering about unneeded nerfs outside of Portal. The past few patches have been heavy tone downs of toxic mechanics. I want to see if that pattern continues.

If everything gets bumped down a peg, then dead traits and the like can be discussed. I am totally fine with every class having to manage their resources as hard as, say, thief. Every class has dead traits, some have had dead traits for years. Mesmer being late to that party is not a travesty to me.

[ quietly chuckles in evasive mirror not having 100% uptime anymore on dodge, the audacity of that trait pre-nerf. ]

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Condi Chaos Mirage is still very decent, a strong duelist with a lot of escape options for outnumbered fights and decent mobility. Chronobunker is also still a capable sidenoder. Interrupt builds based on Daze Mantra and Chaotic Interruption (+ Pistol and Shatter Daze) are a bit more niche, but can be devastating against builds without enough stability. Even Oneshot Chrono is seeing some use (Azzardome is doing wonders with it), and Power Mirage has always been around and getting decent result when used in the right situations. So there is still a lot of viable options.

So yeah, Mesmer is still fine, even though not absolute S Tier. Metabattle underrates it imo, at least the first two builds I mentioned should still be in Great. It's just that Mesmer had so many top tier (bordering on god tier) builds for so long that now for the first time you actually have to be very good at the builds to make them work. Mirage is generally a bit harder to play than stuff like Spellbreaker, Holo or Scrapper [as in: you depend on timely use your mobility skills for survival more and can't allow any facetanking], which might be a reason why it underperforms in lower tiers. If you use your mobility tools (Blink, Jaunt, Staff 2, Illusionary Ambush) + stealth wisely it's still extremely painful to fight. The condi application on Mirage isn't as overwhelming as it used to be anymore, but it still constitutes very decent pressure against all but the heaviest of anti condi builds.

Also double revenant oneshots pretty much anything, so it's a poor example to give when talking about Chrono viability, but that's another topic.

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The ele players in this topic, how can you say elementalist is out of meta when renegade has never been meta? At least tempest was very good in HoT so it's now your turn to be out of meta. Buff renegade.

I think we can agree that every class has traits that don't worth picking. In mesmer's case, every traitline (except mirage and chronomancer lines) is already predefined if you want to play actual builds. That's obviously not good.

Back to the topic, the hybrid (sage or wizard amulet) mirage is gone and now mirages are forced to take condition damage amulets. However, look at the current state of mesmer weapons: The condition output is nothing if they aren't backed by power damage. Mirage can't be scourge and it can't be revenant. Both scepter and axe are hybrid main hands, pistol is a hybrid off hand and staff is strictly utility-defensive weapon, it also has power damage in its phantasms.

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@Tayga.3192 said:The ele players in this topic, how can you say elementalist is out of meta when renegade has never been meta? At least tempest was very good in HoT so it's now your turn to be out of meta. Buff renegade.

I think we can agree that every class has traits that don't worth picking. In mesmer's case, every traitline (except mirage and chronomancer lines) is already predefined if you want to play actual builds. That's obviously not good.

Back to the topic, the hybrid (sage or wizard amulet) mirage is gone and now mirages are forced to take condition damage amulets. However, look at the current state of mesmer weapons: The condition output is nothing if they aren't backed by power damage. Mirage can't be scourge and it can't be revenant. Both scepter and axe are hybrid main hands, pistol is a hybrid off hand and staff is strictly utility-defensive weapon, it also has power damage in its phantasms.

Renegade is a specific spec and elementalist is an entire profession. Nice try, but very bad comparison. If you also want to argue about specific specs, then weaver has never been meta either. I don't get these arguments. Also lol at it being ele's turn to be out of the meta. You mean a 2-3 year turn with the way that things are going? Just because of tempest? With what other classes are pulling now, maybe that would justify ele being the only meta for a couple of years. This logic is pure nonsense.

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@Eddbopkins.2630 said:Omg ur outa of meta for the 1st time in 7 years? Cant play this game no more....#sarcasm....how about u main a ele then u have the right to complain about being out of meta.And i dont think its out of meta it still has a insta 25k dps bomb on power chrono i belive that can drop anything.

I'm indifferent on Mesmers but I admit, you stole these words right from my mouth.

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@"Ganathar.4956" said:Renegade is a specific spec and elementalist is an entire profession. Nice try, but very bad comparison. If you also want to argue about specific specs, then weaver has never been meta either. I don't get these arguments. Also lol at it being ele's turn to be out of the meta. You mean a 2-3 year turn with the way that things are going? Just because of tempest? With what other classes are pulling now, maybe that would justify ele being the only meta for a couple of years. This logic is pure nonsense.

Looks like I dropped this: /s

Edit: I want to explain a bit more.AFAIK core mes was never "super op", while core ele had its times (celestial amulet).

Saying "x was meta now it should be bad" should not be taken seriously.

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Mirage is still useful since its capable of winning duels versus warriors. Other dps mesmer builds are not that uncommon either it seems in high pvp tiers. Its not godmode like it used to be, but its not bad at all. Mesmer has probably been the most meta out of all classes due to portal, but now they have to reinvent themselves a bit. And lets be thankful that Chrono is not meta. Chrono meta was definately the worst and most boring meta of all for me.

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Mesmer is a little underpowered compared to the meta builds right now indeed. There are better side noders and better +1s and better hybrids.

But condi mirage is definitely not trash. Ele and thief are in a worse situation. If the dominating meta builds get nerfed, condi mirage might be fine again without buffs.

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Rip Mes. I used to play power chrono, they nerfed it in several rounds into the ground until I found to be unplayable in PvP. Recently I switched to Mirage, and I dislike condi playstyle, but I did it any way only to find that it's damage output is very weak but has slightly better survivability. Seems I like I came in on the tail end of the death of the Mes. They have even nerfed a bunch of core mes trait for no real good reason, making all specs much weaker. A prime example is blinding dissipation. they turn it into 1 blind every 3osecs. It is totally useless now. No one in their right mind would choose this. A total over nerf. They literally don't want anyone to play the class. But when you compare other classes power and condi specs to Mes they are monsters, but apparently that is fine. What we've witness is what happens when interns are let loose on balancing classes. Behold Mes is dead!

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Power mirage and Bunker Chrono is still a thing in Na. The number 1 Team in Na still runs a Power Mirage for a team comp and that clown is pretty God Tier on it.

Holo/Rev/Mirage are all in the same spot at the moment till they get nerf or buffed.

Imo thief/ele/soul beast is out of meta at the moment.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Daishi.6027 said:If mesmer was carried by build before, does that mean Rangers, Engies, and Wars are getting carried by their builds now?Having builds that have equal or more defensive options, and either high burst or more reliable damage?

Yes. The above classes need to be looked at and need changes made to them as well. Heralds might also need tuning, though I am willing to kind of hold the conclusion on that due to how allergic they are to conditions. No classes should be able to attain a build or rotation that walls any counterplay out. That's the only way the meta is going to become autonomous.

Does that mean thief, has been carried for years? Because until PoF dropped, and excluding S1 Chronobunk (which was gutted immediately) Mes was pretty much easily replaced in slot by thief if not Portal since pre HoT, and later double moa?

No. And portal nerf needs to be reverted anyway.

I'm usually the first one to come to the forums running my mouth about mesmer, but there are several nerfs that were done before the previous round that need to be addressed at least in part, IMO.

That being said.

I want to see where this goes. If they are slowly taking all of the overperforming specs down a peg, I want to see what the game looks like after Spellbreaker, Soulbeast, Scrapper and Holosmith get touched before I start yammering about unneeded nerfs outside of Portal. The past few patches have been heavy tone downs of toxic mechanics. I want to see if that pattern continues.

If everything gets bumped down a peg, then dead traits and the like can be discussed. I am totally fine with every class having to manage their resources as hard as, say, thief. Every class has dead traits, some have had dead traits for years. Mesmer being late to that party is not a travesty to me.

[
quietly chuckles in evasive mirror not having 100% uptime anymore on dodge, the audacity of that trait pre-nerf.
]

This is reasonable and gets my +1

However, and this may be some historic animosity reflecting a bias; but I'm skeptical of A-net to do this properly given, the amount of bias and double standards there is against mesmer from both devs and players alike. Let's say that's all in the past and devs have an even handed perspective: Even if they are going to do it reasonably well, and honestly I'm totally on board with bringing everything down a bit; but I have my doubts a-net will do this in a timely manner. If it's going to take them till the end of August or September to bring those specs down, then they should have left mesmer par and reduced everything together.

  • Now maybe that is a work load A-net cannot accomplish, to be able to balance so many classes at the same time. If that is the case then there should be transparency regarding that, and we've never really had that communication.
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@Falan.1839 said:Condi Chaos Mirage is still very decent, a strong duelist with a lot of escape options for outnumbered fights and decent mobility. Chronobunker is also still a capable sidenoder. Interrupt builds based on Daze Mantra and Chaotic Interruption (+ Pistol and Shatter Daze) are a bit more niche, but can be devastating against builds without enough stability. Even Oneshot Chrono is seeing some use (Azzardome is doing wonders with it), and Power Mirage has always been around and getting decent result when used in the right situations. So there is still a lot of viable options.

So yeah, Mesmer is still fine, even though not absolute S Tier. Metabattle underrates it imo, at least the first two builds I mentioned should still be in Great. It's just that Mesmer had so many top tier (bordering on god tier) builds for so long that now for the first time you actually have to be very good at the builds to make them work. Mirage is generally a bit harder to play than stuff like Spellbreaker, Holo or Scrapper [as in: you depend on timely use your mobility skills for survival more and can't allow any facetanking], which might be a reason why it underperforms in lower tiers. If you use your mobility tools (Blink, Jaunt, Staff 2, Illusionary Ambush) + stealth wisely it's still extremely painful to fight. The condi application on Mirage isn't as overwhelming as it used to be anymore, but it still constitutes very decent pressure against all but the heaviest of anti condi builds.

Also double revenant oneshots pretty much anything, so it's a poor example to give when talking about Chrono viability, but that's another topic.

.

@"Megametzler.5729" said:Mesmer is a little underpowered compared to the meta builds right now indeed. There are better side noders and better +1s and better hybrids.

But condi mirage is definitely not trash. Ele and thief are in a worse situation. If the dominating meta builds get nerfed, condi mirage might be fine again without buffs.

I generally agree with these posts. I want to see what happens with the current meta builds before daring to ask for Mesmer buffs. I mean some in the community don't even want to let us have the third jaunt back even with the 50% c/d increase. Jaunt, a basic utility skill that passes as an "elite" skill for which Mirages have no better alternative.

Tone down power-crept meta specs and condi mitigation, then revisit after.

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@zoopop.5630 said:Power mirage and Bunker Chrono is still a thing in Na. The number 1 Team in Na still runs a Power Mirage for a team comp and that clown is pretty God Tier on it.

Holo/Rev/Mirage are all in the same spot at the moment till they get nerf or buffed.

Imo thief/ele/soul beast is out of meta at the moment.

@praqtos.9035 said:Pretty hilarious see them talking about mesmer viablity without mesmer being present in the meta. NA mesmer as an example might play naked and faceroll 500-0 all NA teams regardless,thats how bad NA is

I am rly not for mesmer buffs but Holo and Mirage are clearly not even on the same planet when it comes to how broken and ez something is to play atm. Holo even beats Condimirage in both categories and Powermes is far away from that lvl . And yes Team USA could even 500:100 playing 4vs5 so that neither prove any Powermesmer viability nor the skill lvl of the mesmer player.

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