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PvP Mesmer Out of META


Jack.8124

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People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

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@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.

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@Jack.8124 said:According to metabattle, mesmer doesn't appear in the first 19 builds for pvp (obviusly, not in meta section and not in great section)Mesmer is completely out of meta, we think we need a big rebalance for mesmer...DPS mesmer is not able to play in high levelCondi mesmer doesn't do damage anymoreBunker mesmer is completely getting oneshots by dual revenantsHealing mesmer is a jokeBoon generation mesmer doesn't existThe result... Mesmer is completely out of everything for pvp...

Sorry for my poor English guys, I hope you understand it..

Sounds like a ThiefOh wait Thief needs nerf how could it possibly sound alike

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@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.

If you are going to do a personal attack, at least say something that is actually true and actually happened.What need a nerf opinion from p1-p2 thread? Never happened?I've done exactly the opposite and stated that Rev damage is overtuned, power crept, and pretty much all the damage buffs the class has been given should be reverted and/or nerfed.
What a change, well done ;)The fact is I was platinum and on LB with renegade during PoF launchExcuse me, even with all respect to your "achievement" but reaching platinum... You know...Never been hard ?while scrubs played condi mirage post phantasm rework during 2018 placed in gold and came here to claim it wasn't OP.I admit when a class I like is broken, these clowns do not.So who are these gold scrubs and clowns? Eh ? In fact MANY mesmer players admitted it was OP and suggested solutions that were ignored. Nice try !
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@praqtos.9035 said:

So who are these gold scrubs and clowns? Eh ? In fact MANY mesmer players admitted it was OP and suggested solutions that were ignored. Nice try !

I'm not referring to good mesmers, who still continue to be good and are still doing just fine. I'm referring to those who actually tried to defend the class back when it would even win 1v1 against its supposed counter.

You want to find them? Search the mesmer forums in 2018 then search the previous seasons leaderboards for the randoms claiming the class was fine during that year. Oh look, none of them are on it. Big surprise.

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@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

So who are these gold scrubs and clowns? Eh ? In fact MANY mesmer players admitted it was OP and suggested solutions that were ignored. Nice try !

I'm not referring to good mesmers, who still continue to be good and are still doing just fine. I'm referring to those who actually tried to defend the class back when it would even win 1v1 against its supposed counter.You can find such people for every class regardless how broken it is, big surprise, I guess.You want to find them? Search the mesmer forums in 2018 then search the previous seasons leaderboards for the randoms claiming the class was fine during that year. Oh look, none of them are on it. Big surprise.Its not something I would like to spend time on, obviously. There is also probability they dont play anymore

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@Master Ketsu.4569 said:

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.

If you are going to do a personal attack, at least say something that is actually true and actually happened. The teams that actually won ran single rev.

I've done exactly the opposite and stated that Rev damage is overtuned, power crept, and pretty much all the damage buffs the class has been given should be reverted and/or nerfed.

The fact is I was platinum and on LB with renegade during PoF launch, while scrubs played condi mirage post phantasm rework during 2018 placed in gold and came here to claim it wasn't OP. I admit when a class I like is broken, these clowns do not.

"Rev damage is OP... we should nerf everyone's damage at the same time" is not exactly a resounding criticism of the specific meta build that's been running roughshot over the meta since last July.

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@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:Cant play this game no more....#sarcasm....

It's not sarcasm. Most good mesmers left pvp or changed mains.

Hmmm.... So they bandwagon to what ever is most broken or just leave when the going gets tough.

Im not sure if the point you're making is the one you're intending to make

I remember way back during ESL some mesmer mains were switching to thief.Does the logic of bandwagoning go for them as well?People gravitate to what ever is most effective. If a team doesn't that team is usually doomed to fall behind.Another example. - Remember when Cele Ele was allowed to stack? I'm pretty sure not everyone was a main ele in that tournament.Do we call every high ranked aT player who switches mains to be more effective a bandwagoner?

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.@Eurantien.4632 said:Mesmer is absolutely broken. Just because people are not good at it doesn't mean it's not good.Just because you are bad doesnt mean mesmer is absolutely broken.Its ultimate weapon against any class that is underperforming, renegade isnt bad,its just people suck at it. It was so simple all this time !

Yeah? How much you wanna bet you can beat Zeromis in a 2/3?

So...the counter to this arguement is.."Well my friend can beat you up so nyaa"Really?

Why not just duel him yourself? Why do you need someone else to do it for you?

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@Eurantien.4632 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.@Eurantien.4632 said:Mesmer is absolutely broken. Just because people are not good at it doesn't mean it's not good.Just because you are bad doesnt mean mesmer is absolutely broken.Its ultimate weapon against any class that is underperforming, renegade isnt bad,its just people suck at it. It was so simple all this time !

Yeah? How much you wanna bet you can beat Zeromis in a 2/3?

What does that even have to do with the argument of praqtos? It was already mentioned several times that playing Powermesmer in a team that can beat every other NA team 500:100 even 4v5 doesn't proves anything and if praqtos can beat Zeromis or not is completely irrelevant for the discussion. But make him come EU, from what i have seen of him he is good ofc but i am sure we have more than one Powermes in EU can beat him in duels.

Calling Powermes broken is bronze lvl btw and i bet you don't have enough skill to play it (and do anything else than roflstomp bad players with it). Condimes always was a good noobcarry simply because of how easy it is to play and it still can carry but less far than a Ranger or Engi can carry bad players atm.These are the 2 classes + Ele i switch to when i don't wanna get focused 24/7 as Necro (most played class out of multiclassing) and don't want to use any brain for playing.

Still i vote for just nerf everything in terms of dmg and (passive) sustain. Don't buff anything, in particular not braindead builds like Condimesmer. We need a way less braindead meta. And balance is simple: What can facetank for ages shouldn't have any dmg and what is easy to play should be way less rewarding than a skillful build. Sadly Anet always was bad in balancing both of these points.

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@Eurantien.4632 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.@Eurantien.4632 said:Mesmer is absolutely broken. Just because people are not good at it doesn't mean it's not good.Just because you are bad doesnt mean mesmer is absolutely broken.Its ultimate weapon against any class that is underperforming, renegade isnt bad,its just people suck at it. It was so simple all this time !

Yeah? How much you wanna bet you can beat Zeromis in a 2/3?

Zeromis gets away with power mirage in MATs because while he is a genuinely one of the best players to have ever played, he also does MATs with most of the other best players who have ever played the game, and those five would continue to win the MAT every single month even on largely nonmeta (But not full meme) team comps. How many months in a row have Team USA gone with games like 500-100, or 500-200? The answer as far back as I can see is nearly all of them. 500-360 is "close" for them. They've never lost a game as far back as I can see, and they've never had a close game as far back as I can see.

The moment the MAT competition is on a point where close 490-500 games are happening for the finals, or where Team USA actually loses decisively, they're going to ask Zeromis to reroll. They don't right now because there is absolutely no need to. The NA MAT scene is completely and hilariously noncompetitive. It's significantly more dead and significantly less competitive than EU. EU tends to be more representative of the overall trends in balance changes because it's more competitive and thus people actually need to care about things like team composition. For starters it actually has teams that can give the usual MAT winners a decent game with scores like 450-500 instead of the 500-100 blowouts we get on NA.

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@Solori.6025 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:Cant play this game no more....#sarcasm....

It's not sarcasm. Most good mesmers left pvp or changed mains.

Hmmm.... So they bandwagon to what ever is most broken or just leave when the going gets tough.

Im not sure if the point you're making is the one you're intending to make

I remember way back during ESL some mesmer mains were switching to thief.Does the logic of bandwagoning go for them as well?People gravitate to what ever is most effective. If a team doesn't that team is usually doomed to fall behind.Another example. - Remember when Cele Ele was allowed to stack? I'm pretty sure not everyone was a main ele in that tournament.Do we call every high ranked aT player who switches mains to be more effective a bandwagoner?

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.@Eurantien.4632 said:Mesmer is absolutely broken. Just because people are not good at it doesn't mean it's not good.Just because you are bad doesnt mean mesmer is absolutely broken.Its ultimate weapon against any class that is underperforming, renegade isnt bad,its just people suck at it. It was so simple all this time !

Yeah? How much you wanna bet you can beat Zeromis in a 2/3?

So...the counter to this arguement is.."Well my friend can beat you up so nyaa"Really?

Why not just duel him yourself? Why do you need someone else to do it for you?

I wasnt referring too class switching to counter enemy comps.

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@Jack.8124 said:According to metabattle, mesmer doesn't appear in the first 19 builds for pvp (obviusly, not in meta section and not in great section)Mesmer is completely out of meta, we think we need a big rebalance for mesmer...

Mesmers had been brokenly overpowered for the longest record, still see plenty of plays in ranked, but teams may decide not to run it for team synergy at high ranks, which is fine

... to your points

DPS mesmer is not able to play in high levelI still see people capable of single burst kills, if you can't then it mean your opponents are getting more adapted to mesmer bursts

Condi mesmer doesn't do damage anymoreHuh??? Condi mesmers probably the second most used condi build after Scourge

Bunker mesmer is completely getting oneshots by dual revenantsIs this still a thing? thought it went out the window years ago; the fact that you are getting 1 shot by revs means you are ill prepared, mesmer, even core have the most utilities of any class against rev bursts

Healing mesmer is a jokeMesmer is never a heal support class

Boon generation mesmer doesn't existChronomancer, but they are more of static placement support, making them a poor choice PvP where your team mates are constantly running around; sprit rangers are really powerful boon support, but lands in the same bucket that the placement is rather static

 

 

The result... Mesmer is completely out of everything for pvp...

have no idea why ppl go to Metabattle, it's a good place to get started, but it doesnt have all the best builds, quite a lot are outdated to the current balance; still playable just not as performing as well as it was

if you want to find the best builds you need to watch streamers on youtube and twitch, and top players would usually adjust their builds base on guessing the builds the opposing team is running, or synergises with their team mate

... and it'd boring as heck if everyone just running the same build off MB

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When top players were switching to thief for top tournies instead of mesmer, people still called mesmer OP.

I'd like to see an actual discussion on how, or why, or what it has that makes it overpowered.

Let's talk power mesmer.

If you say the damage: Many including the big meta builds right now from ranger, engie, and war can burst more than enough, or has more reliable damage, and usually more sustain. Or in the case of dagger thief, whom can safely retreat into stealth and try again, and had a much higher stealth up time compared to a mesmer who's invisibility prior to mass invis change was on average one or two skills with 2-3 seconds of stealth for 30-40 second cooldowns.IF you cannot dodge a shatter you probably can't dodge a back stab.If you dodge a shatter the mesmer usually used many of their cooldowns and is in a worse position than a thief.

If you say survivability: I ask you to count the on demand cooldowns and active defensive options and compared them to the rest of the cast. Back around season 10-12, when mirage still had most of it's toys there was a thread to compare evasion/block/invuln uptime including vigor and any rune/amulet effects. DD still won out and now with even more defensive nerfs Mirage is even more vulnerable, despite A-net making the statement they wanted it to last long in fights.If we're talking about sustainy bunker builds, there are still many builds that can do the job just as well if not better, and offer more to the team.

If you say Illusions and detargeting: I'm sorry but no one decent falls for that, detarget may be annoying but a vast majority of the skills in this game are cleave, and even the condi variant is to squish to just eat a warrior swining away as they try to blend in. The exception to this was Illusionary Ambush which used to be a reliable shuffle to hide in illusions before it got a +15 second cooldown because people didn't run portal anymore.If the problem is external damage, Illusions along with having obvious summoning tells, have easily manipulated AI pathing and die in cleave, and after the rework phantasms no longer persist. Illusions are directly inferior to any ranger pet, and unlike a warrior's adrenaline or thief's initiative illusions are resources that can be cleaved.

Condi is a different story, but power uses all the same mechanics. If Condi is OP and power isn't, the issue is with condi and how it applies stacks; and not the class as a whole.

Without hyperbole, without ad hominem, without red herrings, without appeals to popularity. Please describe on what grounds Mesmer is overpowered; and if it is inferior, if we were under the presumption that engie, ranger, and war would go unchanged or maintain their current prowess; why should mirage?

FYI: Discussing the viability of another class is a red herring and not a basis for this conversation, and only serves to derail. If you want to talk about the status of another class compared to the meta make a new topic.

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@"otto.5684" said:Why the kitten was this thread moved to Mesmer forums? It most definitely belonged in sPvP. Man, since Gaile Gray left the quality of forums moderation has dropped 50 notches...

The funny thing is that the 'Mesmer is meta you are bad' thread is still in the PvP section.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/79290/mesmer-is-meta-you-re-bad#latest

Am I missing something here?Why is a thread against mesmer changes kept in the PvP forums and a thread for mesmer changes moved to the mesmer forums?

Apparently Biased again, what a surprise!Do they want the PvP community to think that the majority of the community doesn't like mesmers?

I'll walk myself to a corner now and pretend like I really didn't just see this happen.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.@Eurantien.4632 said:Mesmer is absolutely broken. Just because people are not good at it doesn't mean it's not good.Just because you are bad doesnt mean mesmer is absolutely broken.Its ultimate weapon against any class that is underperforming, renegade isnt bad,its just people suck at it. It was so simple all this time !

Yeah? How much you wanna bet you can beat Zeromis in a 2/3?

Zeromis gets away with power mirage in MATs because while he is a genuinely one of the best players to have ever played, he also does MATs with most of the other best players who have ever played the game, and those five would continue to win the MAT every single month even on largely nonmeta (But not full meme) team comps. How many months in a row have Team USA gone with games like 500-100, or 500-200? The answer as far back as I can see is nearly all of them. 500-360 is "close" for them. They've never lost a game as far back as I can see, and they've never had a close game as far back as I can see.

The moment the MAT competition is on a point where close 490-500 games are happening for the finals, or where Team USA actually loses decisively, they're going to ask Zeromis to reroll. They don't right now because there is absolutely no need to. The NA MAT scene is completely and hilariously noncompetitive. It's significantly more dead and significantly less competitive than EU. EU tends to be more representative of the overall trends in balance changes because it's more competitive and thus people actually need to care about things like team composition. For starters it actually has teams that can give the usual MAT winners a decent game with scores like 450-500 instead of the 500-100 blowouts we get on NA.

When they games get close Zeromis and Toker carry them out of it. They can tell him to reroll because "it's not meta" but power Mesmer is one of the biggest factors keeping them in such a strong spot. In fact, the times he's gone Condi mesmer have been the closest games they've had. Mesmer (and power especially) is insanely strong.

You can say whatever about EU but everytime they come to NA they get stomped too...

Mesmer is objectively really really strong. Its just not "Meta" cause the average flavor of the monther cant play it right now.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:People really need to stop obsessing over metabattle. The API is down so often that metabattle is slow as hell to keep up. The Power Chrono build that could be seen all over the place in plat2+ last season is still listed as a "Test" build, and they don't even have half of it correct.

Mesmer is A-tier, which is going to feel like F-tier to people who mained it during the full two years it was SS.

This is richer than the whitest, fattest, heaviest cream coming from a rev main.This one is a special snowflake, shows a video with jaw casts ATs, where nearly every team had double even triple revenants and said "calling rev OP would be wrong", I almost fell of my chair.@Eurantien.4632 said:Mesmer is absolutely broken. Just because people are not good at it doesn't mean it's not good.Just because you are bad doesnt mean mesmer is absolutely broken.Its ultimate weapon against any class that is underperforming, renegade isnt bad,its just people suck at it. It was so simple all this time !

Yeah? How much you wanna bet you can beat Zeromis in a 2/3?

Zeromis gets away with power mirage in MATs because while he is a genuinely one of the best players to have ever played, he also does MATs with most of the other best players who have ever played the game, and those five would continue to win the MAT every single month even on largely nonmeta (But not full meme) team comps. How many months in a row have Team USA gone with games like 500-100, or 500-200? The answer as far back as I can see is nearly all of them. 500-360 is "close" for them. They've never lost a game as far back as I can see, and they've never had a close game as far back as I can see.

The moment the MAT competition is on a point where close 490-500 games are happening for the finals, or where Team USA actually loses decisively, they're going to ask Zeromis to reroll. They don't right now because there is absolutely no need to. The NA MAT scene is completely and hilariously noncompetitive. It's significantly more dead and significantly less competitive than EU. EU tends to be more representative of the overall trends in balance changes because it's more competitive and thus people actually need to care about things like team composition. For starters it actually has teams that can give the usual MAT winners a decent game with scores like 450-500 instead of the 500-100 blowouts we get on NA.

When we do in-houses It always ends up with one of his teammates saying, "any team that has Zeromis wins, Zeromis play something else." Every. Time.

The only way he switches off power mesmer is with crazy mesmer nerfs or crazy buffs to other things to phase mesmer out of the meta or shake up the meta completely.

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Just wanted to say...

@"crepuscular.9047" said:

Condi mesmer doesn't do damage anymoreHuh??? Condi mesmers probably the second most used condi build after Scourge

^This is like saying "boats are probably the second most used means of overseas travel after planes."

Something being a distant second in a situation with only two options really isn't saying much about the second's efficacy.

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@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:Just wanted to say...

@"crepuscular.9047" said:

Condi mesmer doesn't do damage anymoreHuh??? Condi mesmers probably the second most used condi build after Scourge

^This is like saying "boats are probably the second most used means of overseas travel after planes."

Something being a distant second in a situation with only two options really isn't saying much about the second's efficacy.

OP said it does no dmg, there are plenty of other classes that can run condi builds, the fact that people still running condi mes shows that it is still viable, just not as potent as prior to rebalance

to me it sounds like OP only like to copy builds off MB instead of exploring the possibilities of making things work after rebalance

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