Balance is terrible.I don't think mesmer are treated fairly - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Balance is terrible.I don't think mesmer are treated fairly

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  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Look here; what a surprise??
    (Thief) Mesmer making the headlines again of being toxic instead of being competitive- healthy-with-skill play, as the Op stated.
    It never amazes me that for 7 years; Thief and Mesmer continuously being called out for causing unbalance to the game yet nothing is beingdone to put an end to their Toxicity

    Even forcing other professions to be toxic in dealing with them

    Quote

    'My favorite Scrapper build actually uses dual pistols! It doesn’t matter that my efficacy with a dual pistol Scrapper is quite high, or the amazing capabilities it has to counter high mobility and evasion classes like mesmers and thieves, simply the fact that a player isn’t running a build known to be overpowered is enough to be heckled if your team comes even slightly close to losing.'

    https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/columns/guild-wars-2-the-community-a-mixed-bag-1000013664

    ((Mesmers do not deserve to being treated unfairly-they deserve to being treated with fun skill-play designs and mechanics which honors Gwen Thackeray ))

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gwen

    If Gwen Thackeray was still alive-she would Never approve her design and would certainly be Extremely-Beyond- Outrage by the direction of her Mesmer identity to Guild Wars and Tyria

    If GW1 mesmer, the one Gwen is, was in GW2 it would have the forums on their knees grovelling to be set free from their oppressive single and sometimes multiple target shut down. GW1 mesmer was several orders of magnitude more powerful than GW2 mesmer, it could make you take massive damage for not casting and take massive damage for casting at the same time while quite literally doubling or even tripling up on any ability it wanted.

    Make no mistake GW1 mesmer is a leather clad dominatrix that would reduce all these forum beta's to the pathetic slaves they are.

    Edit: So why wasn't it a big issue in GW1? GW1 is a team game, had the trinity and you relied on your team to clear the hex's.

    I want this..........i want this now.........

    https://www.guildwars.com/en/

    I meant in gw2 😖
    I tried gw1.....waaaaayyy to slow for me. Like I can stand playing FF14 or Swtor more than I can gw1.

    I get what you mean but the slower pace is correlated to the tactical aspect.
    GW2 is more of an hack and slash type of gameplay than rpg. Every profession, skill and trait lack identity, to add to this every skill has a safety net attached to it, there's no risk imbued into them.
    Professions have no synergy whatsoever, it's more of a single player game in a mmo setting (combos are just a poor excuse of synergy).
    These are all present in gw1, hence why most veterans praise gw1 combat.

    As for mesmer in particular, apharma explained it really well. Mesmer was a beast in pvp.
    Just reading gw wiki skills shows how powerful and annoying it was.

    This is exactly what i love. Hack and Slash.

    Had zero interest in gw1 back in the days, with all the party etc. I always disliked games where you can't just play your character gotta have AI's or other players to do things, control a whole party. Just let me master playing my character. I don't mind that ppl like to rp around do what they want with their characters, but it's not fulfilling for me to rp around like im a girlscout.

    Do like a good story though, but a good story can't make up for missing gameplay quality.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Look here; what a surprise??
    (Thief) Mesmer making the headlines again of being toxic instead of being competitive- healthy-with-skill play, as the Op stated.
    It never amazes me that for 7 years; Thief and Mesmer continuously being called out for causing unbalance to the game yet nothing is beingdone to put an end to their Toxicity

    Even forcing other professions to be toxic in dealing with them

    Quote

    'My favorite Scrapper build actually uses dual pistols! It doesn’t matter that my efficacy with a dual pistol Scrapper is quite high, or the amazing capabilities it has to counter high mobility and evasion classes like mesmers and thieves, simply the fact that a player isn’t running a build known to be overpowered is enough to be heckled if your team comes even slightly close to losing.'

    https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/columns/guild-wars-2-the-community-a-mixed-bag-1000013664

    ((Mesmers do not deserve to being treated unfairly-they deserve to being treated with fun skill-play designs and mechanics which honors Gwen Thackeray ))

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gwen

    If Gwen Thackeray was still alive-she would Never approve her design and would certainly be Extremely-Beyond- Outrage by the direction of her Mesmer identity to Guild Wars and Tyria

    If GW1 mesmer, the one Gwen is, was in GW2 it would have the forums on their knees grovelling to be set free from their oppressive single and sometimes multiple target shut down. GW1 mesmer was several orders of magnitude more powerful than GW2 mesmer, it could make you take massive damage for not casting and take massive damage for casting at the same time while quite literally doubling or even tripling up on any ability it wanted.

    Make no mistake GW1 mesmer is a leather clad dominatrix that would reduce all these forum beta's to the pathetic slaves they are.

    Edit: So why wasn't it a big issue in GW1? GW1 is a team game, had the trinity and you relied on your team to clear the hex's.

    I want this..........i want this now.........

    https://www.guildwars.com/en/

    I meant in gw2 😖
    I tried gw1.....waaaaayyy to slow for me. Like I can stand playing FF14 or Swtor more than I can gw1.

    I get what you mean but the slower pace is correlated to the tactical aspect.
    GW2 is more of an hack and slash type of gameplay than rpg. Every profession, skill and trait lack identity, to add to this every skill has a safety net attached to it, there's no risk imbued into them.
    Professions have no synergy whatsoever, it's more of a single player game in a mmo setting (combos are just a poor excuse of synergy).
    These are all present in gw1, hence why most veterans praise gw1 combat.

    As for mesmer in particular, apharma explained it really well. Mesmer was a beast in pvp.
    Just reading gw wiki skills shows how powerful and annoying it was.

    This is exactly what i love. Hack and Slash.

    Had zero interest in gw1 back in the days, with all the party etc. I always disliked games where you can't just play your character gotta have AI's or other players to do things, control a whole party. Just let me master playing my character. I don't mind that ppl like to rp around do what they want with their characters, but it's not fulfilling for me to rp around like im a girlscout.

    Do like a good story though, but a good story can't make up for missing gameplay quality.

    I understand that.
    But I didn't mean hack and slash as a positive meaning nor rpg as role play aspect.
    I meant that gw2 combat has as much depth as a dynasty warriors game combat system, it's so dumbed down and bland that you can only compare to a straightforward type of game.
    As for rpg I meant the opposite, a well thought and deep combat system with multiple synergies and counters both from an individual and team standpoint. Gw1 combat is a true masterpiece while gw2 is the more of fast food approach.

  • Crackmonster.2790Crackmonster.2790 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Look here; what a surprise??
    (Thief) Mesmer making the headlines again of being toxic instead of being competitive- healthy-with-skill play, as the Op stated.
    It never amazes me that for 7 years; Thief and Mesmer continuously being called out for causing unbalance to the game yet nothing is beingdone to put an end to their Toxicity

    Even forcing other professions to be toxic in dealing with them

    Quote

    'My favorite Scrapper build actually uses dual pistols! It doesn’t matter that my efficacy with a dual pistol Scrapper is quite high, or the amazing capabilities it has to counter high mobility and evasion classes like mesmers and thieves, simply the fact that a player isn’t running a build known to be overpowered is enough to be heckled if your team comes even slightly close to losing.'

    https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/columns/guild-wars-2-the-community-a-mixed-bag-1000013664

    ((Mesmers do not deserve to being treated unfairly-they deserve to being treated with fun skill-play designs and mechanics which honors Gwen Thackeray ))

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gwen

    If Gwen Thackeray was still alive-she would Never approve her design and would certainly be Extremely-Beyond- Outrage by the direction of her Mesmer identity to Guild Wars and Tyria

    If GW1 mesmer, the one Gwen is, was in GW2 it would have the forums on their knees grovelling to be set free from their oppressive single and sometimes multiple target shut down. GW1 mesmer was several orders of magnitude more powerful than GW2 mesmer, it could make you take massive damage for not casting and take massive damage for casting at the same time while quite literally doubling or even tripling up on any ability it wanted.

    Make no mistake GW1 mesmer is a leather clad dominatrix that would reduce all these forum beta's to the pathetic slaves they are.

    Edit: So why wasn't it a big issue in GW1? GW1 is a team game, had the trinity and you relied on your team to clear the hex's.

    I want this..........i want this now.........

    https://www.guildwars.com/en/

    I meant in gw2 😖
    I tried gw1.....waaaaayyy to slow for me. Like I can stand playing FF14 or Swtor more than I can gw1.

    I get what you mean but the slower pace is correlated to the tactical aspect.
    GW2 is more of an hack and slash type of gameplay than rpg. Every profession, skill and trait lack identity, to add to this every skill has a safety net attached to it, there's no risk imbued into them.
    Professions have no synergy whatsoever, it's more of a single player game in a mmo setting (combos are just a poor excuse of synergy).
    These are all present in gw1, hence why most veterans praise gw1 combat.

    As for mesmer in particular, apharma explained it really well. Mesmer was a beast in pvp.
    Just reading gw wiki skills shows how powerful and annoying it was.

    This is exactly what i love. Hack and Slash.

    Had zero interest in gw1 back in the days, with all the party etc. I always disliked games where you can't just play your character gotta have AI's or other players to do things, control a whole party. Just let me master playing my character. I don't mind that ppl like to rp around do what they want with their characters, but it's not fulfilling for me to rp around like im a girlscout.

    Do like a good story though, but a good story can't make up for missing gameplay quality.

    I understand that.
    But I didn't mean hack and slash as a positive meaning nor rpg as role play aspect.
    I meant that gw2 combat has as much depth as a dynasty warriors game combat system, it's so dumbed down and bland that you can only compare to a straightforward type of game.
    As for rpg I meant the opposite, a well thought and deep combat system with multiple synergies and counters both from an individual and team standpoint. Gw1 combat is a true masterpiece while gw2 is the more of fast food approach.

    I know. That's why i made an opposite statement because i have to defend the style.

    Difference of opinion, you don't understand this system or want to - you don't see the quality of it but GW2 has one of the most masterful of well executed reactionary combat systems proper ARPGMMO's has ever seen.

    Just saying, you are wrong to generalize it as being generically shallow - you are more right when you point out its differs from gw1 on the chosen type of combat system and is much less rock paper scissors and more can do most things on most classes with ample skill.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Crackmonster.2790 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:
    Look here; what a surprise??
    (Thief) Mesmer making the headlines again of being toxic instead of being competitive- healthy-with-skill play, as the Op stated.
    It never amazes me that for 7 years; Thief and Mesmer continuously being called out for causing unbalance to the game yet nothing is beingdone to put an end to their Toxicity

    Even forcing other professions to be toxic in dealing with them

    Quote

    'My favorite Scrapper build actually uses dual pistols! It doesn’t matter that my efficacy with a dual pistol Scrapper is quite high, or the amazing capabilities it has to counter high mobility and evasion classes like mesmers and thieves, simply the fact that a player isn’t running a build known to be overpowered is enough to be heckled if your team comes even slightly close to losing.'

    https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/columns/guild-wars-2-the-community-a-mixed-bag-1000013664

    ((Mesmers do not deserve to being treated unfairly-they deserve to being treated with fun skill-play designs and mechanics which honors Gwen Thackeray ))

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gwen

    If Gwen Thackeray was still alive-she would Never approve her design and would certainly be Extremely-Beyond- Outrage by the direction of her Mesmer identity to Guild Wars and Tyria

    If GW1 mesmer, the one Gwen is, was in GW2 it would have the forums on their knees grovelling to be set free from their oppressive single and sometimes multiple target shut down. GW1 mesmer was several orders of magnitude more powerful than GW2 mesmer, it could make you take massive damage for not casting and take massive damage for casting at the same time while quite literally doubling or even tripling up on any ability it wanted.

    Make no mistake GW1 mesmer is a leather clad dominatrix that would reduce all these forum beta's to the pathetic slaves they are.

    Edit: So why wasn't it a big issue in GW1? GW1 is a team game, had the trinity and you relied on your team to clear the hex's.

    I want this..........i want this now.........

    https://www.guildwars.com/en/

    I meant in gw2 😖
    I tried gw1.....waaaaayyy to slow for me. Like I can stand playing FF14 or Swtor more than I can gw1.

    I get what you mean but the slower pace is correlated to the tactical aspect.
    GW2 is more of an hack and slash type of gameplay than rpg. Every profession, skill and trait lack identity, to add to this every skill has a safety net attached to it, there's no risk imbued into them.
    Professions have no synergy whatsoever, it's more of a single player game in a mmo setting (combos are just a poor excuse of synergy).
    These are all present in gw1, hence why most veterans praise gw1 combat.

    As for mesmer in particular, apharma explained it really well. Mesmer was a beast in pvp.
    Just reading gw wiki skills shows how powerful and annoying it was.

    This is exactly what i love. Hack and Slash.

    Had zero interest in gw1 back in the days, with all the party etc. I always disliked games where you can't just play your character gotta have AI's or other players to do things, control a whole party. Just let me master playing my character. I don't mind that ppl like to rp around do what they want with their characters, but it's not fulfilling for me to rp around like im a girlscout.

    Do like a good story though, but a good story can't make up for missing gameplay quality.

    I understand that.
    But I didn't mean hack and slash as a positive meaning nor rpg as role play aspect.
    I meant that gw2 combat has as much depth as a dynasty warriors game combat system, it's so dumbed down and bland that you can only compare to a straightforward type of game.
    As for rpg I meant the opposite, a well thought and deep combat system with multiple synergies and counters both from an individual and team standpoint. Gw1 combat is a true masterpiece while gw2 is the more of fast food approach.

    I will not have you speaking ill about Dynasty Warriors in MY house.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    I will not have you speaking ill about Dynasty Warriors in MY house.

    Samurai warriors is better than dynasty warriors! Nene>all

  • Artits.2795Artits.2795 Member ✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    I will not have you speaking ill about Dynasty Warriors in MY house.

    Samurai warriors is better than dynasty warriors! Nene>all

    Zuo Ci > Nene & all

  • Flandre.2870Flandre.2870 Member ✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Well it's Metabattle-official: all Conquest mesmer builds have been downgraded to third tier "good", dropping below even the likes of Fire Weaver. I know Metabattle isn't the be-all, end-all, but the recently revised Conquest lineup seems fairly accurate.

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

    Thanks to the person who brought this to my attention. :)

    Good. I actually enjoy condi mirage for once after these last couple nerfs.
    Now they need to bring down kitten like holo,warr and rev and game will be good.

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Flandre.2870 said:
    Yeah they are idiots for not nerfing everything to bring all specs to the same level. Holo,warrior,rev are the offenders rn. Daggerstorm is a kitten spell that should never exist in its current state. And about me jumping ship to boonbeast i literally played 200 games of ranger over months for a team, lol. While i keep playing mesmer daily

    See you in a couple of days flan :cold_sweat: I don't think the mods liked you calling Anet out on their.......inadequacies and short comings...

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like how there's no reference to soulbeast.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Flandre.2870 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Well it's Metabattle-official: all Conquest mesmer builds have been downgraded to third tier "good", dropping below even the likes of Fire Weaver. I know Metabattle isn't the be-all, end-all, but the recently revised Conquest lineup seems fairly accurate.

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

    Thanks to the person who brought this to my attention. :)

    Good. I actually enjoy condi mirage for once after these last couple nerfs.
    Now they need to bring down kitten like holo,warr and rev and game will be good.

    Dunno how seriously I can take your "I like a challenge" when you jumped ship to Boonbeast back when it was the best 1v1 spec by a considerable margin.

    Flandre always mained ranger, why playing ranger should be surprising ?

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Flandre.2870 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Well it's Metabattle-official: all Conquest mesmer builds have been downgraded to third tier "good", dropping below even the likes of Fire Weaver. I know Metabattle isn't the be-all, end-all, but the recently revised Conquest lineup seems fairly accurate.

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

    Thanks to the person who brought this to my attention. :)

    Good. I actually enjoy condi mirage for once after these last couple nerfs.
    Now they need to bring down kitten like holo,warr and rev and game will be good.

    Dunno how seriously I can take your "I like a challenge" when you jumped ship to Boonbeast back when it was the best 1v1 spec by a considerable margin.

    Even when Condi Mirage was at it's most lethal (February to July 2018 after the phantasm work) at the high end of play there were plenty of builds that just stalled it out and contested the nodes in perpetuity; Spellbreaker, Prot Holo, Scrapper both before and after the gyro rework, SD Weaver, Boonbeast. All competitive. All going toe to toe with Condition Mirage at it's absolute peak.

    You'd figured if they were going to gut condi mirage's damage by 50-70% across the board for both it's shatters and all of it's weapon skills that builds that were going toe to toe with Condi Mirage would also have gotten some nerfs as well. And aside from Boonbeast getting serious nerfs along side Mirage everything was either ridiculously buffed like Spellbreakers with Rampage and Shake it Off or left untouched.

    Spellbreaker got nerfed multiple times and the most obvious was when they nerfed Fullcounter by 80%, which is also the time when you had 4 condi mirages every game. You are right about Rampage it needs cd nerf and some changes to the magic homing rock and Shake it Off got buff for POF cause anything that is condition speck trows at least 6 conditions on the slightest graze also it came at the same time they buff/nerfed Berserker stance.To tell you the truth they designed most of the POF specks by the rule of cool instead of properly thinking about it and the funniest thing is that spellbreaker was thrown together last minute, you can notice that fullcounter is guardian mace block since they have the same visual bug (never fixed lol).
    Stop the pity party and suggest some reasonable changes. Mesmerererer is still great, maybe it requires some effort to play you know. People QQ about it cause the design is broken stacking both confusion and torment, you move you die, you press a button you die you stay still you die, then the mirage can dodge while stunned who the hell thinks that is good design. All of the POF specks are overkill with kitten amount of training wheels like they wanted to remove the skill part of the game and everyone to think they are good at it by rolling their face on the keyboard. Now everyone is special, which means no one is.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Flandre.2870 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Well it's Metabattle-official: all Conquest mesmer builds have been downgraded to third tier "good", dropping below even the likes of Fire Weaver. I know Metabattle isn't the be-all, end-all, but the recently revised Conquest lineup seems fairly accurate.

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

    Thanks to the person who brought this to my attention. :)

    Good. I actually enjoy condi mirage for once after these last couple nerfs.
    Now they need to bring down kitten like holo,warr and rev and game will be good.

    Dunno how seriously I can take your "I like a challenge" when you jumped ship to Boonbeast back when it was the best 1v1 spec by a considerable margin.

    Even when Condi Mirage was at it's most lethal (February to July 2018 after the phantasm work) at the high end of play there were plenty of builds that just stalled it out and contested the nodes in perpetuity; Spellbreaker, Prot Holo, Scrapper both before and after the gyro rework, SD Weaver, Boonbeast. All competitive. All going toe to toe with Condition Mirage at it's absolute peak.

    You'd figured if they were going to gut condi mirage's damage by 50-70% across the board for both it's shatters and all of it's weapon skills that builds that were going toe to toe with Condi Mirage would also have gotten some nerfs as well. And aside from Boonbeast getting serious nerfs along side Mirage everything was either ridiculously buffed like Spellbreakers with Rampage and Shake it Off or left untouched.

    Spellbreaker got nerfed multiple times and the most obvious was when they nerfed Fullcounter by 80%, which is also the time when you had 4 condi mirages every game. You are right about Rampage it needs cd nerf and some changes to the magic homing rock and Shake it Off got buff for POF cause anything that is condition speck trows at least 6 conditions on the slightest graze also it came at the same time they buff/nerfed Berserker stance.

    Full Counter's damage got nerfed, which is a change I personally don't agree with.

    But the tools that allowed Spellbreakers to stall out a condition mirage's damage out put were never nerfed. Heck, they only got buffed. Shake It Off was power crept back in July 2018. Berserker Stance was changed in November 2017 and it was a horizontal change that reduced it's duration and it's cooldown. And with the Last Stand trait you came out tiny bit ahead.

    It's just the fact of the matter that Spellbreaker always had the tools to completely stall out condition mirage. Don't believe me? Go watch the Mist Challenger's tournament. All of the game's best players coming together to compete over a $2000 prize pool including Rank 55 Dragons and Team USA facing off in the finals.

    This tournament happened after the phantasm rework super charged a lot of mesmer capabilities. Every time one of the condition mesmers went up against one of the spellbreakers it resulted in a perpetual stall out. Are you really going to call Misha and Zeromis trash mesmers who don't know how to think about playing and weren't putting in effort?

    What changed was that Arenanet power crept the hell out of Physical Skills. Bull's Rush, Rampage in particular and the Peak Performance trait. Suddenly every Spellbreaker found out with Magebane Tether they could casually toss out 10k Arcing Slices and Whirlind Blades, 6k Damage Bull's Rushes. And it turns out being able to thoughtlessly two shot most builds after ramping up some might even before you go into Rampage is more effective against everything that isn't a condition mirage enough to make the worse match up against that particular build, especially when that build is largely dead now.

    I really don't want to hear a Rampage Main of all classes talk about effort and skill when your build is objectively the spammiest, braindead, easiest to play, and most boosted thing in the meta right now after Holo and Scrapper, and they're also Rampage Mains.

    You assume too much , mainly i play Reaper not some mechanical miracle, you press a button and after a long cast it does something, but you can feel which profession elites are kitten since no ou kitten buttons. Mirage, holo, deadeye , soulbeast, scourge and even the perma dodge weaver all dumb down design with low cooldowns do your raid rotation and you win at least vs warrior i have 50/50 to win. I know you want to feel like you are playing some mechanically intense class but man mirage has the most training wheels out of all of them. So you are talking about the big hits on war they are like that cause everything has overcharged defenses and if you get hit by 10k Arcing Slice you are most probably under 50% hp and yet mesmererer has the same output or even more from range. To tell you it gets on my nerves when some mesmererer lasers away 3/4 of my Reaper HP( if it was anything else it would be dead) when i have used my 2 precious dodges or condi mirage just spams clones and hit caps me while my hp drains away . With every sentence you write it shows you haven't done your homework on other professions.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Flandre.2870 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Well it's Metabattle-official: all Conquest mesmer builds have been downgraded to third tier "good", dropping below even the likes of Fire Weaver. I know Metabattle isn't the be-all, end-all, but the recently revised Conquest lineup seems fairly accurate.

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

    Thanks to the person who brought this to my attention. :)

    Good. I actually enjoy condi mirage for once after these last couple nerfs.
    Now they need to bring down kitten like holo,warr and rev and game will be good.

    Dunno how seriously I can take your "I like a challenge" when you jumped ship to Boonbeast back when it was the best 1v1 spec by a considerable margin.

    Even when Condi Mirage was at it's most lethal (February to July 2018 after the phantasm work) at the high end of play there were plenty of builds that just stalled it out and contested the nodes in perpetuity; Spellbreaker, Prot Holo, Scrapper both before and after the gyro rework, SD Weaver, Boonbeast. All competitive. All going toe to toe with Condition Mirage at it's absolute peak.

    You'd figured if they were going to gut condi mirage's damage by 50-70% across the board for both it's shatters and all of it's weapon skills that builds that were going toe to toe with Condi Mirage would also have gotten some nerfs as well. And aside from Boonbeast getting serious nerfs along side Mirage everything was either ridiculously buffed like Spellbreakers with Rampage and Shake it Off or left untouched.

    Spellbreaker got nerfed multiple times and the most obvious was when they nerfed Fullcounter by 80%, which is also the time when you had 4 condi mirages every game. You are right about Rampage it needs cd nerf and some changes to the magic homing rock and Shake it Off got buff for POF cause anything that is condition speck trows at least 6 conditions on the slightest graze also it came at the same time they buff/nerfed Berserker stance.

    Full Counter's damage got nerfed, which is a change I personally don't agree with.

    But the tools that allowed Spellbreakers to stall out a condition mirage's damage out put were never nerfed. Heck, they only got buffed. Shake It Off was power crept back in July 2018. Berserker Stance was changed in November 2017 and it was a horizontal change that reduced it's duration and it's cooldown. And with the Last Stand trait you came out tiny bit ahead.

    It's just the fact of the matter that Spellbreaker always had the tools to completely stall out condition mirage. Don't believe me? Go watch the Mist Challenger's tournament. All of the game's best players coming together to compete over a $2000 prize pool including Rank 55 Dragons and Team USA facing off in the finals.

    This tournament happened after the phantasm rework super charged a lot of mesmer capabilities. Every time one of the condition mesmers went up against one of the spellbreakers it resulted in a perpetual stall out. Are you really going to call Misha and Zeromis trash mesmers who don't know how to think about playing and weren't putting in effort?

    What changed was that Arenanet power crept the hell out of Physical Skills. Bull's Rush, Rampage in particular and the Peak Performance trait. Suddenly every Spellbreaker found out with Magebane Tether they could casually toss out 10k Arcing Slices and Whirlind Blades, 6k Damage Bull's Rushes. And it turns out being able to thoughtlessly two shot most builds after ramping up some might even before you go into Rampage is more effective against everything that isn't a condition mirage enough to make the worse match up against that particular build, especially when that build is largely dead now.

    I really don't want to hear a Rampage Main of all classes talk about effort and skill when your build is objectively the spammiest, braindead, easiest to play, and most boosted thing in the meta right now after Holo and Scrapper, and they're also Rampage Mains.

    Some text that makes no sense

    "Looks thread creating tab" 100% of warrior ones. I think this guy 100% mains tempest ! /s
    Your post is like... pure nonsense, especially about "raid rotation", any warrior with a half of a brain cell will smack you for your inability to play well agaisnt him.
    Your explanation makes me think you were kitten bad warrior, rip. The last time I actually did play cmirage I had not enough pressure to kill reaper , that wasnt silver reaper ofc (btw on EU top3 is a REAPER player).
    The part about mesmer... Even more damage than warrior from range...

    With every sentence you write it shows you haven't done your homework on other professions.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Vancho.8750 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Flandre.2870 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    Well it's Metabattle-official: all Conquest mesmer builds have been downgraded to third tier "good", dropping below even the likes of Fire Weaver. I know Metabattle isn't the be-all, end-all, but the recently revised Conquest lineup seems fairly accurate.

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest

    Thanks to the person who brought this to my attention. :)

    Good. I actually enjoy condi mirage for once after these last couple nerfs.
    Now they need to bring down kitten like holo,warr and rev and game will be good.

    Dunno how seriously I can take your "I like a challenge" when you jumped ship to Boonbeast back when it was the best 1v1 spec by a considerable margin.

    Even when Condi Mirage was at it's most lethal (February to July 2018 after the phantasm work) at the high end of play there were plenty of builds that just stalled it out and contested the nodes in perpetuity; Spellbreaker, Prot Holo, Scrapper both before and after the gyro rework, SD Weaver, Boonbeast. All competitive. All going toe to toe with Condition Mirage at it's absolute peak.

    You'd figured if they were going to gut condi mirage's damage by 50-70% across the board for both it's shatters and all of it's weapon skills that builds that were going toe to toe with Condi Mirage would also have gotten some nerfs as well. And aside from Boonbeast getting serious nerfs along side Mirage everything was either ridiculously buffed like Spellbreakers with Rampage and Shake it Off or left untouched.

    Spellbreaker got nerfed multiple times and the most obvious was when they nerfed Fullcounter by 80%, which is also the time when you had 4 condi mirages every game. You are right about Rampage it needs cd nerf and some changes to the magic homing rock and Shake it Off got buff for POF cause anything that is condition speck trows at least 6 conditions on the slightest graze also it came at the same time they buff/nerfed Berserker stance.

    Full Counter's damage got nerfed, which is a change I personally don't agree with.

    But the tools that allowed Spellbreakers to stall out a condition mirage's damage out put were never nerfed. Heck, they only got buffed. Shake It Off was power crept back in July 2018. Berserker Stance was changed in November 2017 and it was a horizontal change that reduced it's duration and it's cooldown. And with the Last Stand trait you came out tiny bit ahead.

    It's just the fact of the matter that Spellbreaker always had the tools to completely stall out condition mirage. Don't believe me? Go watch the Mist Challenger's tournament. All of the game's best players coming together to compete over a $2000 prize pool including Rank 55 Dragons and Team USA facing off in the finals.

    This tournament happened after the phantasm rework super charged a lot of mesmer capabilities. Every time one of the condition mesmers went up against one of the spellbreakers it resulted in a perpetual stall out. Are you really going to call Misha and Zeromis trash mesmers who don't know how to think about playing and weren't putting in effort?

    What changed was that Arenanet power crept the hell out of Physical Skills. Bull's Rush, Rampage in particular and the Peak Performance trait. Suddenly every Spellbreaker found out with Magebane Tether they could casually toss out 10k Arcing Slices and Whirlind Blades, 6k Damage Bull's Rushes. And it turns out being able to thoughtlessly two shot most builds after ramping up some might even before you go into Rampage is more effective against everything that isn't a condition mirage enough to make the worse match up against that particular build, especially when that build is largely dead now.

    I really don't want to hear a Rampage Main of all classes talk about effort and skill when your build is objectively the spammiest, braindead, easiest to play, and most boosted thing in the meta right now after Holo and Scrapper, and they're also Rampage Mains.

    Some text that makes no sense

    "Looks thread creating tab" 100% of warrior ones. I think this guy 100% mains tempest ! /s
    Your post is like... pure nonsense, especially about "raid rotation", any warrior with a half of a brain cell will smack you for your inability to play well agaisnt him.
    Your explanation makes me think you were kitten bad warrior, rip. The last time I actually did play cmirage I had not enough pressure to kill reaper , that wasnt silver reaper ofc (btw on EU top3 is a REAPER player).
    The part about mesmer... Even more damage than warrior from range...

    With every sentence you write it shows you haven't done your homework on other professions.

    Their last post convinced me it was,bait.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    First you attack the person and disregard the argument because you have nothing to of value to add and then change the subject.
    Your whole part of the sub devolves into pity party, someone suggests something that would fix some QOL and even rework some broken stuff that are over performing or under performing like in the first page of the tread and then everyone starts its not our fault break everything else , this beats me and that beats me yada yada. Everyone is annoyed by mesemer mains cause they can do everything but want more. Look at Revenent they have the same build for 4 years maybe its somewhat strong but its the only working one, or the guards that want to be damage dealer but is mostly sub par compared to everything else. or war that is stuck in the side node for years. Most of the POF specks need full reworks cause no amount of number tuning will help them. Some like Rev and war need some damage and cd tune but only after fixing the rest of the mess that is POF.

  • ZeteCommander.4937ZeteCommander.4937 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2019

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

    How wrong you are.

    • Hundreds of posts crying about phantasms = let's nerf 50% damage of 2 phantasms doing 3k damage in 3s, and nerf burning coz 3 stacks every 30s is too much.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about boonshare = boon traits getting nerfed beyond useless.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about EM = In Gw1 we got Smiter's Booned, in Gw2 nerfs get EM'ed.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Mirage dodge = Mirage Cloak being nerfed and vigor uptime becoming a joke.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about condis = Let's put 5-6 hard condi nerfs at the same time so forum mods can breathe.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Confusing Images = Confusing Images gets 50% damage nerf even if was far from being highest damage skill.

    Meanwhile, Revs have broken hammer damage and daredevils have perma evade build for 3.5 years while Soulbeast and Holo have broken damage paired with broken passive sustain for 1.5 years. Working as intended bois.

    Everybody else does +7k in single hits, no problem. Mesmer does it in a 7 hit, +2s channel skill, NERF THAT KITTEN YOU CRAZY DEVS BREAKING DIS GAAAME!!!!
    PD: And it gets nerfed.

    Crying posts are simply coincidental. There are LOTS of changes that are NOT related to players complaints. Anet has a vision. They implement it. 1000's of complaints, a handful of them are bound to be inline with that vision. You're own post PROVES it ... if Anet is changing the game based on crying posts, why are things in the game that people still crying about? That makes no sense.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    They took whining side as their way of balance. Just as F3->became stun was @Lincolnbeard.1735 idea.
    All nerfs on mesmer were brought by players complaining all around, calling themselves knowledgable community, rofl. "Nerf this thing and mirage is perfect!" and this repeated itself all the time they got nerfed thing they wanted, torch, jaunt, signet of midnight, illusionary ambush, confusion, portal, axe ambush, mirage evade. Dont believe me? Look for the threads on your own if you want

    Convince yourself whatever you want. There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game, including the 'common sense' evidence that suggests there is no reason to appeal to QQ on the forums in the first place. If Mirage doesn't work for you in PVP, you have other choices. Not all especs excel in every game mode. In fact most especs only excel in ONE game mode. I see no reason for Mirage to be any different. While I don't suggest Anet shouldn't try to make especs work well in all game modes, I would suggest that it's not a requirement for them to do so.

    Hi what are you going on? Why do you favor yourself?
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/74493/the-reasons-berserker-fails/p1

  • nthmetal.9652nthmetal.9652 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    My idea about this for Mirage.

    1) Remove that largely useless trait that makes clones into mirrors on one shatter only.
    2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

    Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;
    Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.

    3) In addition to the current functions of Mirrors (trigger Mirage Cloak when Mirage touches it) add the following function to Mirage Mirrors;

    Enemies that touch the mirror take [whatever current single clone F1 shatter damage is] damage and gain 3 stacks of Confusion (3 second duration), this will not grant the Mirage the Dune Cloak effect.

    In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

    The problem with that approach is, that all the other traitlines would need a major rework then, too. We have just recently had trait changes, which target a single shatter skill instead of all of them. They would suddenly be useless to Mirage leading to even more dead traits, if they are not reworked.
    I'd love to see different shatters for core / mirage / chrono, but it would be a big rework. On the other hand, such a rework is necessary anyway to get rid of dead traits. So it could be done at the same time.

    "and then we know that we have looked back through the ivory gates into that world of wonder which was ours before we were wise and unhappy"
    -- H. P. Lovecraft - Celephais

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.

    Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".

    including the 'common sense' evidence.

    Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

    That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

    How wrong you are.

    • Hundreds of posts crying about phantasms = let's nerf 50% damage of 2 phantasms doing 3k damage in 3s, and nerf burning coz 3 stacks every 30s is too much.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about boonshare = boon traits getting nerfed beyond useless.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about EM = In Gw1 we got Smiter's Booned, in Gw2 nerfs get EM'ed.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Mirage dodge = Mirage Cloak being nerfed and vigor uptime becoming a joke.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about condis = Let's put 5-6 hard condi nerfs at the same time so forum mods can breathe.
    • Hundreds of posts crying about Confusing Images = Confusing Images gets 50% damage nerf even if was far from being highest damage skill.

    Meanwhile, Revs have broken hammer damage and daredevils have perma evade build for 3.5 years while Soulbeast and Holo have broken damage paired with broken passive sustain for 1.5 years. Working as intended bois.

    Everybody else does +7k in single hits, no problem. Mesmer does it in a 7 hit, +2s channel skill, NERF THAT KITTEN YOU CRAZY DEVS BREAKING DIS GAAAME!!!!
    PD: And it gets nerfed.

    Crying posts are simply coincidental. There are LOTS of changes that are NOT related to players complaints. Anet has a vision. They implement it. 1000's of complaints, a handful of them are bound to be inline with that vision. You're own post PROVES it ... if Anet is changing the game based on crying posts, why are things in the game that people still crying about? That makes no sense.

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    They took whining side as their way of balance. Just as F3->became stun was @Lincolnbeard.1735 idea.
    All nerfs on mesmer were brought by players complaining all around, calling themselves knowledgable community, rofl. "Nerf this thing and mirage is perfect!" and this repeated itself all the time they got nerfed thing they wanted, torch, jaunt, signet of midnight, illusionary ambush, confusion, portal, axe ambush, mirage evade. Dont believe me? Look for the threads on your own if you want

    Convince yourself whatever you want. There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game, including the 'common sense' evidence that suggests there is no reason to appeal to QQ on the forums in the first place. If Mirage doesn't work for you in PVP, you have other choices. Not all especs excel in every game mode. In fact most especs only excel in ONE game mode. I see no reason for Mirage to be any different. While I don't suggest Anet shouldn't try to make especs work well in all game modes, I would suggest that it's not a requirement for them to do so.

    Hi what are you going on? Why do you favor yourself?
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/74493/the-reasons-berserker-fails/p1

    Can you rephrase your question? I got no idea what you are rambling about.

  • Opopanax.1803Opopanax.1803 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mikkel.8427 said:
    I haven't posted on here in a really long time because I just haven't had a lot of time to play in the last year.
    BUT Mesmer balance is completely ridiculous... It feels like I'm playing flaming garbage. EVERYTHING has been nerfed to the point that I may as well not even select traits. Mirage feels even worse than it felt at launch... I can close my eyes and faceroll my keys on my Warrior and have more success (which I guess isn't saying much, its almost always been that way...) No sustained... No damage... meh mobility especially now that everyone has mounts.
    I have a character of every prof and have played their elites... but when I want to relax with my limited time I usually want to create beautiful butterfly explosions. I don't think its unreasonable to expect Anet to make REASONABLE and INCREMENTAL balance changes when something is overperforming...

    I'd usually make suggestions about what needs to be adjusted, but its EVERYTHING.
    /rant

    Don't get this sentiment. Mesmer is very slippery and has incredible survivability, at least Mirage. That's one of the reasons I love it.

  • @nthmetal.9652 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    My idea about this for Mirage.

    1) Remove that largely useless trait that makes clones into mirrors on one shatter only.
    2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

    Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;
    Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.

    3) In addition to the current functions of Mirrors (trigger Mirage Cloak when Mirage touches it) add the following function to Mirage Mirrors;

    Enemies that touch the mirror take [whatever current single clone F1 shatter damage is] damage and gain 3 stacks of Confusion (3 second duration), this will not grant the Mirage the Dune Cloak effect.

    In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

    The problem with that approach is, that all the other traitlines would need a major rework then, too. We have just recently had trait changes, which target a single shatter skill instead of all of them. They would suddenly be useless to Mirage leading to even more dead traits, if they are not reworked.
    I'd love to see different shatters for core / mirage / chrono, but it would be a big rework. On the other hand, such a rework is necessary anyway to get rid of dead traits. So it could be done at the same time.

    Undoubtedly, Redesign is the best choice
    .Most trait are broken that are numerous bandage on them and The wound below has rotted.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

    @nthmetal.9652 said:

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    My idea about this for Mirage.

    1) Remove that largely useless trait that makes clones into mirrors on one shatter only.
    2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

    Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;
    Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.

    3) In addition to the current functions of Mirrors (trigger Mirage Cloak when Mirage touches it) add the following function to Mirage Mirrors;

    Enemies that touch the mirror take [whatever current single clone F1 shatter damage is] damage and gain 3 stacks of Confusion (3 second duration), this will not grant the Mirage the Dune Cloak effect.

    In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

    The problem with that approach is, that all the other traitlines would need a major rework then, too. We have just recently had trait changes, which target a single shatter skill instead of all of them. They would suddenly be useless to Mirage leading to even more dead traits, if they are not reworked.
    I'd love to see different shatters for core / mirage / chrono, but it would be a big rework. On the other hand, such a rework is necessary anyway to get rid of dead traits. So it could be done at the same time.

    Undoubtedly, Redesign is the best choice
    .Most trait are broken that are numerous bandage on them and The wound below has rotted.

    +1 to redesign Mesmer

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Although I would like a redesign, preferably one that gets rid of clones and phantasms so baddies can't qq about clutter, it's not going to happen, from here on its all downhill.
    And just imagine all qq if mesmer was redesign "it's que second redesign mesmer gets and profession X got none, ANet's favourite child yadda yadda"

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Although I would like a redesign, preferably one that gets rid of clones and phantasms so baddies can't qq about clutter, it's not going to happen, from here on its all downhill.
    And just imagine all qq if mesmer was redesign "it's que second redesign mesmer gets and profession X got none, ANet's favourite child yadda yadda"

    More over this will nullify their past rework. Also this would be a complete class rework. Many people would be displeased or whatnot because they bought the game with a class with a clones and butterflies, meanwhile anet made it that way where 90% of playerbase suck against it competitive modes,so mesmer players are highly displeased too with all complaints around

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Although I would like a redesign, preferably one that gets rid of clones and phantasms so baddies can't qq about clutter, it's not going to happen, from here on its all downhill.
    And just imagine all qq if mesmer was redesign "it's que second redesign mesmer gets and profession X got none, ANet's favourite child yadda yadda"

    More over this will nullify their past rework. Also this would be a complete class rework. Many people would be displeased or whatnot because they bought the game with a class with a clones and butterflies, meanwhile anet made it that way where 90% of playerbase suck against it competitive modes,so mesmer players are highly displeased too with all complaints around

    Can only speak for myself. Would prefer mesmer without clones and phantasms, a mechanic that only cripples mesmers themselves. Need 3 clones alive to hit as much as other professions pressing a button.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Although I would like a redesign, preferably one that gets rid of clones and phantasms so baddies can't qq about clutter, it's not going to happen, from here on its all downhill.
    And just imagine all qq if mesmer was redesign "it's que second redesign mesmer gets and profession X got none, ANet's favourite child yadda yadda"

    More over this will nullify their past rework. Also this would be a complete class rework. Many people would be displeased or whatnot because they bought the game with a class with a clones and butterflies, meanwhile anet made it that way where 90% of playerbase suck against it competitive modes,so mesmer players are highly displeased too with all complaints around

    Can only speak for myself. Would prefer mesmer without clones and phantasms, a mechanic that only cripples mesmers themselves. Need 3 clones alive to hit as much as other professions pressing a button.

    Of course we would have less noobs complaining but I'm not saying they shouldnt do this, they simply wont do it, ever.

  • A full redesign at this point seems terrible, as is I lost my favored bunker build of really old, and the builds we have are fun to play, but lack the power of other professions pressing one or two buttons. We have to press like a dozen to do what others do with 2, and that would be fine, except that all of our damage is easily avoided and much of their damage is not. Balance doesn’t mean doing the same with each press, but being at least playing by the same rules, if so many abilities are unavoidable or very difficult to avoid, some of a Mesmer abilities should as well.

    That said, my solution to shatter and clones was to have damage dealing shatters run to the Mesmer instead of at the enemy, shattering to bolstering the next attack applying the effect of the shatter (Mind Wrack damage or CoF Confusion stacks). Diversion would remain running at the enemy (it is crowd control and should be more easily avoided). Increased reliability of damage while also making more counterplay opportunities for perceptive opponents. Dodge at clones running at you, block or other defensive if they run to the Mesmer (who is now easily spotted when going for damage). Then lining up damage for after the enemy tries to avoid some other ability becomes and actual play.

    The above shifts the damage away from clones and to the Mesmer to do their damage instead. It also opens the door for holding the attack for after the defensive the enemy pops to wear off... just counterplay options and potential for both parties.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Although I would like a redesign, preferably one that gets rid of clones and phantasms so baddies can't qq about clutter, it's not going to happen, from here on its all downhill.
    And just imagine all qq if mesmer was redesign "it's que second redesign mesmer gets and profession X got none, ANet's favourite child yadda yadda"

    More over this will nullify their past rework. Also this would be a complete class rework. Many people would be displeased or whatnot because they bought the game with a class with a clones and butterflies, meanwhile anet made it that way where 90% of playerbase suck against it competitive modes,so mesmer players are highly displeased too with all complaints around

    Can only speak for myself. Would prefer mesmer without clones and phantasms, a mechanic that only cripples mesmers themselves. Need 3 clones alive to hit as much as other professions pressing a button.

    Frankly, me too. We need the clones alive, they fall to easy to cleave/AoE, and only newbies fall for them.

    Would rather see clones removed, and F1-F3 shatters to be re-worked into GW2 versions of Mind Wrack, Empathy and Arcane Larceny respectively. Obviously, things would need to be adjusted for the fact that other than Revenant GW2 does not use energy.

    F4 and F5 can stay as is (as they don't do damage and already have useful effects) and just have their duration adjusted to account for no more clones.

    Phantasms can stay as is, and just go away when they are done. Maybe do a little damage in AoE (like, 240 radius tops) when they die.

    Then our damage and utility would not be dependent on minions that die in a strong wind, and the people that don't know how to tell AI attacks and movement from a player would stop crying for our constant nerfs.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • So, this whole thread pretty much revolves around burden of knowledge when playing against Mesmer due to clones, and Mesmer being reliant on clone production to do damage. What if they were to make clones untargetable, do no damage and apply no conditions, and funnel that damage into shatters that make the next Mesmer attack do extra damage or CC. This is kind of a fusion of my existing suggestion but also solves the issues with clones never reaching their targets and clones confusing new players simultaneously.

    Such an idea shifts damage from AI to player control and timing, provides multiple counterplay options in active and passive defenses for enemies, and reduces visual health bar clutter. Ta da, problems solved, targeting and damage issues both resolved, tuning can focus on shatter damage output reliability increase and damage taken by the Mesmer being increased as clones no longer likely to take a hit intended for the Mesmer.

    Of course the argument generally against such ideas is that this would have already been considered by the dev team. It may have, but at a point in the game where such changes were wholly unnecessary or extreme.

  • Delofasht.4231Delofasht.4231 Member ✭✭
    edited June 26, 2019

    To me, that clearly illustrates WHY they are a problem, because it is the perception of the masses, and that has more sway over the balance of the profession as a whole than it has any right to. This is why they should remove elements that are perceived as a problem and replace them in such a way that they are not a problem. The defense for people who liked Phantasms that never died was “oh but they are so easy to see, dodge, and destroy.”, which is what is now being used for clones.

    To this point, as long as clones are used to "confound" enemies, the power they hold is always going to be viewed as a problem and honestly as a weakness to the design of the Mesmer. Make them untargetable/unkillable, do no damage, and be a visual indicator of the Mesmer's potential damage/crowd control at any given point in time. More clones, means more danger. That allows them to adjust our defensives based around our having clones appropriately, without having to design for them not being up ever (AoE spam killing them all) or being up all the time (no AoE or targeting of the clones taken place by enemy players).

    Edit: This may not be the most popular opinion of our profession, and it is funny that is nearly the same things I said about 7 years ago. We were balanced around Deceptive Evasion and clones existing, so builds that didn't rely on it were generally accepted as weaker. People complained about the same things regarding Mesmers back then as well. It seems we will always be linked to clones and their annoyances to other players and our weakness being reliant on their existence.

  • Mikkel.8427Mikkel.8427 Member ✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    Someone posted this really old interview in the PvP section:
    https://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/17/guild-wars-interview/
    I immediately thought of this thread. Particularly @Obtena.7952 views on the weight of player opinion on balance.

    Direct Quote from the interview:
    "Honestly, pulling stats on skills doesn’t give us a lot of useful information re: skill usage. The community does a great job of telling us what their problems are. Often player input can be more useful than pulling stats or looking at metrics. In terms of lessons learned, we’ve found that the solution for balance issues is to look for the root problem. The answer to a problem with Skill A may not be to nerf that skill, but to nerf Skill B or adjust a game mechanic like Soul Reaping or buff stacking. So the real key is washing away the symptoms to find what the real illness is. We want to treat the core disease, not just the symptoms."

    This is Lindsey Murdock talking about GW1 balance and the lessons they learned that would be brought over to GW2 production. So, its totally possible their strategies for balancing in GW2 have evolved since then.... but I doubt it.

  • Xstein.2187Xstein.2187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2019

    @Mikkel.8427 said:
    Someone posted this really old interview in the PvP section:
    https://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/17/guild-wars-interview/
    I immediately thought of this thread. Particularly @Obtena.7952 views on the weight of player opinion on balance.

    Direct Quote from the interview:
    "Honestly, pulling stats on skills doesn’t give us a lot of useful information re: skill usage. The community does a great job of telling us what their problems are. Often player input can be more useful than pulling stats or looking at metrics. In terms of lessons learned, we’ve found that the solution for balance issues is to look for the root problem. The answer to a problem with Skill A may not be to nerf that skill, but to nerf Skill B or adjust a game mechanic like Soul Reaping or buff stacking. So the real key is washing away the symptoms to find what the real illness is. We want to treat the core disease, not just the symptoms."

    This is Lindsey Murdock talking about GW1 balance and the lessons they learned that would be brought over to GW2 production. So, its totally possible their strategies for balancing in GW2 have evolved since then.... but I doubt it.

    lmao, and how is that implementation going? Based on the last several balance patches, you would think that they thought core mesmer trait lines were the root of the problem.

    p.s. not going to comment on the first part (balance wise), as that is obviously what helped us get into this mess.

  • Excellent. I'm looking forward to redesign shatter of mirage.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    Dune cloak change is pretty telling of the double standards. Don't get me wrong I'm glad it's going in this direction however, with the misnomer of "being utility" compared to the offense and defense aside; this change doesn't offer enough.

    Infinite horizon is offensive for Condi builds, but offers very little apart from split surge on power. With the exception of interrupts on leap, and everything that scales off of that. However, without those traits it loses a lot of it's offensive potential. (also pretty sure power block is bugged.)

    But this new Dune cloak could have offered real damage for power builds, opposite to having IH boost condi; except A-net is literally halfassing it.
    (Also we all know EM is just dead, I don't know why they think Exhaust is fair or even makes "defensive", it's like they don't know how their class functions, compared to something like thief that can get hard endurance recovery lol)

    Dune Cloak: This trait has been reworked and new visual effects have been added. It now attacks at the end of Mirage Cloak rather than the beginning. Additionally, its damage has been increased by 100%, and instead of inflicting bleeding it now removes a boon from up to 5 foes on hit. The mirage gains a copy of any boon removed.

    Okay so we get a 1.0 Coefficient attack on dodge that steals boons, as a GM trait. Also 180 radius, means that we're not going to be stealling to many boons unless everyone is stacked nice and tightly on eachother.

    Is it fair when compared to reckless dodge, which is an adept minor, hits at a coefficent of 1.5 AND is UNBLOCKABLE and stacks might.

    I don't know about you guys, But I don't think a boon strip is superior to unblockable with 50% damage + might as a GM trait.

    Dune cloak needs at least +166% - 200% (1.33 - 1.5 coefficient) to be reasonable damage, OR inherent unblockable to at least be competitive.
    But really it should have both since it's a GM trait and not a freaking adept minor.

    Or okay A-net wants it to be utility, fine, leave it as 1.0 steal 2 boons, make it unblockable. I don't see why you give an inferior adept trait as a GM to another class, especially when power mirage has no representation in PvE, and is mediocre at best in PvP.

    Edit: LOL I guess I should have read the "The mirage gains a copy of any boon removed." because it doesn't even truly steal the boon, just gives you whatever duration it wants. 10/10 bias a-net.

  • ZhouX.8742ZhouX.8742 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 16, 2019

    @Daishi.6027 said:
    Dune cloak change is pretty telling of the double standards. Don't get me wrong I'm glad it's going in this direction however, with the misnomer of "being utility" compared to the offense and defense aside; this change doesn't offer enough.

    Infinite horizon is offensive for Condi builds, but offers very little apart from split surge on power. With the exception of interrupts on leap, and everything that scales off of that. However, without those traits it loses a lot of it's offensive potential. (also pretty sure power block is bugged.)

    But this new Dune cloak could have offered real damage for power builds, opposite to having IH boost condi; except A-net is literally halfassing it.
    (Also we all know EM is just dead, I don't know why they think Exhaust is fair or even makes "defensive", it's like they don't know how their class functions, compared to something like thief that can get hard endurance recovery lol)

    Dune Cloak: This trait has been reworked and new visual effects have been added. It now attacks at the end of Mirage Cloak rather than the beginning. Additionally, its damage has been increased by 100%, and instead of inflicting bleeding it now removes a boon from up to 5 foes on hit. The mirage gains a copy of any boon removed.

    Okay so we get a 1.0 Coefficient attack on dodge that steals boons, as a GM trait. Also 180 radius, means that we're not going to be stealling to many boons unless everyone is stacked nice and tightly on eachother.

    Is it fair when compared to reckless dodge, which is an adept minor, hits at a coefficent of 1.5 AND is UNBLOCKABLE and stacks might.

    I don't know about you guys, But I don't think a boon strip is superior to unblockable with 50% damage + might as a GM trait.

    Dune cloak needs at least +166% - 200% (1.33 - 1.5 coefficient) to be reasonable damage, OR inherent unblockable to at least be competitive.
    But really it should have both since it's a GM trait and not a freaking adept minor.

    Or okay A-net wants it to be utility, fine, leave it as 1.0 steal 2 boons, make it unblockable. I don't see why you give an inferior adept trait as a GM to another class, especially when power mirage has no representation in PvE, and is mediocre at best in PvP.

    Edit: LOL I guess I should have read the "The mirage gains a copy of any boon removed." because it doesn't even truly steal the boon, just gives you whatever duration it wants. 10/10 bias a-net.

    In the context of PvP:

    Mesmer is a difficult class to balance, along with thief. I think those 2 coupled with ranger are the 3 hardest classes to balance in the game, but the top 2 are mesmer and thief because of their unique style over every other class. They really have no direction in a general balancing sense. I say ranger only because you can put a base ranger into a match, equip a longbow on him and people will still complain even if he doesn't have an amulet and utilities. People just hate the class which in turn makes balancing difficult on it.

    Anyways,

    They need to buff portal , since thief has a duo portal that also gives invis now. Honestly revert Chrono re-work, whatever idea they have for this Chrono needs to be reverted and take it back to the drawing board and look at small adjustment / increases instead of re-working an entire elite spec in the name of "tradeoffs".

    Chrono got destroyed and EM needed to be nerfed, let's be real here. That trait was probably one of the most broken traits next to improvisation - which still remains yet to be nerfed actually which is surprising, and will most likely be nerfed very soon and it will kill S/D thief basically because that one trait basically carries meta thief atm.

    I don't agree with how they nerfed EM though, let's keep in mind thief got that same exhaust treatment on top of a "swipe" nerf which killed DD builds entirely, atleast you can still run mirage. It's just not AS easy as it used to be, it was brain dead before.

    Comparing will get you no where, thief has been nerfed and adjusted 2-fold over what mesmer has seen, but it doesn't appear like it has because it has such a unique gameplay pattern in the context of PvP and has had more build exposure than mesmer..

    Besides, they both fill 2 entirely different roles and the only reason mesmer complains about thief is because Ectoplasm exists. Counters should exist in the game. It's healthy.

    They should buff core mesmer and undo what they did to Chrono, buff little things ... How is it a tradeoff when you literally destroy an entire elite spec and give nothing in return? It's just classic pigeonhole balance.

    Also rampage should have seen a stronger nerf, there is not a skill even on ranger that I've seen in the game that is more of an epitome of brain dead keyboard spamming carry than rampage. It's very nature is just horrible design.

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