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Wing 7 CMs are too easy


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If you're going to add "challenge" modes to new raids either don't add them at all or don't make them so easy. I'm fine with normal bosses to be easy enough for newbies to jump in and have some fun. Air djiin CM is a joke, you might as well start doing it in CM every time and you would see barely any difference from normal encounter.

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Well, who would have thought that? Isn't it obvious that this is the outcome after the layoffs earlier this year? I mean seriously what did you expect? A shift to the better in terms of challenging content when it was already a niche before the structural changes? Especially when the lead developer and most dedicated & communicative person here in the forums & reddit left the company.GW2 will be in a good state but raids and fractals won't be. At least that was and still is my logical conclusion. And finally this is a perfect one for the whole community. Wing 5 & 6 are too complex for a lot of players and also not interesting enough. Hopefully the new wing will change that and be a perfect equivalent to W4.

Great days/weeks for GW2 at the moment. I'm very happy.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:Well, who would have thought that? Isn't it obvious that this is the outcome after the layoffs earlier this year? I mean seriously what did you expect? A shift to the better in terms of challenging content when it was already a niche before the structural changes? Especially when the lead developer and most dedicated & communicative person here in the forums & reddit left the company.GW2 will be in a good state but raids and fractals won't be. At least that was and still is my logical conclusion. And finally this is a perfect one for the whole community. Wing 5 & 6 are too complex for a lot of players and also not interesting enough. Hopefully the new wing will change that and be a perfect equivalent to W4.

Great days/weeks for GW2 at the moment. I'm very happy.

The last boss of wing 7 is around wing 5 & 6 complexity wise. Single points of failure doesn't make a boss complex.

Also developer != designer. They have almost nothing to do with balancing the content. They said the new wing will be near wing 1 difficulty which they actually achieved.

Ironically it can be an equivalent to wing 4 for pugs. Do everything except the endboss looks quite realistic. A lot of pugs are still afraid of Deimos.

A crucial thing that many players won't understand is that you can't design real challenging content for the top 5% without locking out everyone else in GW2. Content in other games only appears hard at release because vertical progression not because the content is actually hard from a number/mechanic standpoint. Give top guilds BiS equipment in WoW and bosses fall at the same rate as in GW2.

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@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Well, who would have thought that? Isn't it obvious that this is the outcome after the layoffs earlier this year? I mean seriously what did you expect? A shift to the better in terms of challenging content when it was already a niche before the structural changes? Especially when the lead developer and most dedicated & communicative person here in the forums & reddit left the company.GW2 will be in a good state but raids and fractals won't be. At least that was and still is my logical conclusion. And finally this is a perfect one for the whole community. Wing 5 & 6 are too complex for a lot of players and also not interesting enough. Hopefully the new wing will change that and be a perfect equivalent to W4.

Great days/weeks for GW2 at the moment. I'm very happy.

The last boss of wing 7 is around wing 5 & 6 complexity wise. Single points of failure doesn't make a boss complex.

Given the fact that people of my old - more casually oriented - guild already cleared all CMs in the new wing the 2nd day (1st day was clearing normal mode) contradict that.

Also developer != designer. They have almost nothing to do with balancing the content. They said the new wing will be near wing 1 difficulty which they actually achieved.

So you are telling me that Ben wasn't the one focussing on balancing stuff in raids & fractals? And we know of two additional members of the raid team that left. If I'm speaking about raid developers I mean those individuals who tweak the balance a.k.a. difficulty not the graphical surroundings, music or anything else unrelated.

Ironically it can be an equivalent to wing 4 for pugs. Do everything except the endboss looks quite realistic. A lot of pugs are still afraid of Deimos.

Pugs who fail Deimos are trash not really competent players. There's nothing hard at Deimos. If you want to make it ubersafe there are 3 people who need to know the boss: the tank, the hand kiter and the black kiter. Everyone else can still afk-range from the middle and get an easy LI. This tactic also is the best pug tactic because even if all pug players have a gazillion of LIs somebody is definitely going to step into a black and make the group wipe. Can compare those people to the ones dying in poison fields of Tequatl.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Well, who would have thought that? Isn't it obvious that this is the outcome after the layoffs earlier this year? I mean seriously what did you expect? A shift to the better in terms of challenging content when it was already a niche before the structural changes? Especially when the lead developer and most dedicated & communicative person here in the forums & reddit left the company.GW2 will be in a good state but raids and fractals won't be. At least that was and still is my logical conclusion. And finally this is a perfect one for the whole community. Wing 5 & 6 are too complex for a lot of players and also not interesting enough. Hopefully the new wing will change that and be a perfect equivalent to W4.

Great days/weeks for GW2 at the moment. I'm very happy.

The last boss of wing 7 is around wing 5 & 6 complexity wise. Single points of failure doesn't make a boss complex.

Given the fact that people of my old - more casually oriented - guild already cleared all CMs in the new wing the 2nd day (1st day was clearing normal mode) contradict that.

You know, complexity is not the same as difficulty. The fact that failing to reach a green at Dhuum wipes the group instead of e.g. doing damage to all reapers doesn't make it more complex but more difficult.

Also developer != designer. They have almost nothing to do with balancing the content. They said the new wing will be near wing 1 difficulty which they actually achieved.

So you are telling me that Ben wasn't the one focussing on balancing stuff in raids & fractals? And we know of two additional members of the raid team that left. If I'm speaking about raid developers I mean those individuals who tweak the balance a.k.a. difficulty not the graphical surroundings, music or anything else unrelated.

The fact that he was present during the whole W4 development proves that he did not that much in terms of balance as you want to make it appear.

Ironically it can be an equivalent to wing 4 for pugs. Do everything except the endboss looks quite realistic. A lot of pugs are still afraid of Deimos.

Pugs who fail Deimos are
trash
not really competent players. There's nothing hard at Deimos. If you want to make it ubersafe there are 3 people who need to know the boss: the tank, the hand kiter and the black kiter. Everyone else can still afk-range from the middle and get an easy LI. This tactic also is the best pug tactic because even if all pug players have a gazillion of LIs somebody is definitely going to step into a black and make the group wipe. Can compare those people to the ones dying in poison fields of Tequatl.

That still doesn't change that fact that there are a lot of pugs around that don't do Deimos. And W7B3 needs more coordination that Deimos.
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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Well, who would have thought that? Isn't it obvious that this is the outcome after the layoffs earlier this year? I mean seriously what did you expect? A shift to the better in terms of challenging content when it was already a niche before the structural changes? Especially when the lead developer and most dedicated & communicative person here in the forums & reddit left the company.GW2 will be in a good state but raids and fractals won't be. At least that was and still is my logical conclusion. And finally this is a perfect one for the whole community. Wing 5 & 6 are too complex for a lot of players and also not interesting enough. Hopefully the new wing will change that and be a perfect equivalent to W4.

Great days/weeks for GW2 at the moment. I'm very happy.

The last boss of wing 7 is around wing 5 & 6 complexity wise. Single points of failure doesn't make a boss complex.

Given the fact that people of my old - more casually oriented - guild already cleared all CMs in the new wing the 2nd day (1st day was clearing normal mode) contradict that.

I wouldn't call them casual if they already have the raid done. But I guess this is where definitions can differ

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@"SkyShroud.2865" said:If the current difficulty encourage more people to do the wing, will you still say is a bad decision?

Why not wait for a few months and check the gw2eff statistic?

Just to be called out because gw2e is doesn't represent entirety of the playerbase? I had so much struggle to gather squad for W7 because of how easy W6 was... I've witnessed deaths of so many raiding guilds because of long waiting period between wings and because they are so easy... And people throwing around their excuse "this is because of the layoffs" ... It's just disappointing.

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@yann.1946 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Well, who would have thought that? Isn't it obvious that this is the outcome after the layoffs earlier this year? I mean seriously what did you expect? A shift to the better in terms of challenging content when it was already a niche before the structural changes? Especially when the lead developer and most dedicated & communicative person here in the forums & reddit left the company.GW2 will be in a good state but raids and fractals won't be. At least that was and still is my logical conclusion. And finally this is a perfect one for the whole community. Wing 5 & 6 are too complex for a lot of players and also not interesting enough. Hopefully the new wing will change that and be a perfect equivalent to W4.

Great days/weeks for GW2 at the moment. I'm very happy.

The last boss of wing 7 is around wing 5 & 6 complexity wise. Single points of failure doesn't make a boss complex.

Given the fact that people of my old - more casually oriented - guild already cleared all CMs in the new wing the 2nd day (1st day was clearing normal mode) contradict that.

I wouldn't call them casual if they already have the raid done. But I guess this is where definitions can differ

I didn't call them casual. I said more casually oriented guild in raids. That means that they know what they are doing but are far away from bringing the best output possible in a new raid wing not even 48 hours after its release. They haven't beaten any CMs of the other wings that fast (besides CA CM).

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@"Miellyn.6847" said:You know, complexity is not the same as difficulty. The fact that failing to reach a green at Dhuum wipes the group instead of e.g. doing damage to all reapers doesn't make it more complex but more difficult.

You know, complexity can add difficulty in terms of how much you add to the encounter. Dhuum greens are complex for a lot of players due to shackles, golems, small death marks in between, soul split --> right timing and sometimes clever usage of skills necessary. Additionally reaching all 5 orbs can still be a mess and therefore an awkward mechanic in contrast to be a slubling or doing cannons at Sabetha which are way easier.

The fact that he was present during the whole W4 development proves that he did not that much in terms of balance as you want to make it appear.

Samarog CM was the hardest CM for a veeeery loooong time until they re-adjusted Rigom. It was followed by Deimos CM. CMs (if one would call them CMs) on W1-3 are negligible.

That still doesn't change that fact that there are a lot of pugs around that don't do Deimos. And W7B3 needs more coordination that Deimos.

I don't have numbers for pugs not doing Deimos and I don't think you have them neither. The only thing I would agree to is that there are a lot of "W4 - B1-3" LFGs because they are very easy to lead: Cairn doesn't need a tank, MO one tank, Samarog can be tanked randomly and even if the random tank is bad and fail to mitigate the boss attacks you'll always be able to rezz him because players would only be downed by the normal attacks. So, if you are a chrono commander with the ability to tank MO it's easy to set up such a group.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:Well, who would have thought that? Isn't it obvious that this is the outcome after the layoffs earlier this year? I mean seriously what did you expect? A shift to the better in terms of challenging content when it was already a niche before the structural changes? Especially when the lead developer and most dedicated & communicative person here in the forums & reddit left the company.GW2 will be in a good state but raids and fractals won't be. At least that was and still is my logical conclusion. And finally this is a perfect one for the whole community. Wing 5 & 6 are too complex for a lot of players and also not interesting enough. Hopefully the new wing will change that and be a perfect equivalent to W4.

Great days/weeks for GW2 at the moment. I'm very happy.

No it aint. Base w7 is perfectly fine but cms dont satisfy the part of the community that raids are supposed to be for. W4 was one of the weaker releases as well imo.

Theres room to make the cms harder and they should be harder.

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@yann.1946 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Well, who would have thought that? Isn't it obvious that this is the outcome after the layoffs earlier this year? I mean seriously what did you expect? A shift to the better in terms of challenging content when it was already a niche before the structural changes? Especially when the lead developer and most dedicated & communicative person here in the forums & reddit left the company.GW2 will be in a good state but raids and fractals won't be. At least that was and still is my logical conclusion. And finally this is a perfect one for the whole community. Wing 5 & 6 are too complex for a lot of players and also not interesting enough. Hopefully the new wing will change that and be a perfect equivalent to W4.

Great days/weeks for GW2 at the moment. I'm very happy.

The last boss of wing 7 is around wing 5 & 6 complexity wise. Single points of failure doesn't make a boss complex.

Given the fact that people of my old - more casually oriented - guild already cleared all CMs in the new wing the 2nd day (1st day was clearing normal mode) contradict that.

I wouldn't call them casual if they already have the raid done. But I guess this is where definitions can differ

Casual doesnt mean bad or unskilled.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Well, who would have thought that? Isn't it obvious that this is the outcome after the layoffs earlier this year? I mean seriously what did you expect? A shift to the better in terms of challenging content when it was already a niche before the structural changes? Especially when the lead developer and most dedicated & communicative person here in the forums & reddit left the company.GW2 will be in a good state but raids and fractals won't be. At least that was and still is my logical conclusion. And finally this is a perfect one for the whole community. Wing 5 & 6 are too complex for a lot of players and also not interesting enough. Hopefully the new wing will change that and be a perfect equivalent to W4.

Great days/weeks for GW2 at the moment. I'm very happy.

The last boss of wing 7 is around wing 5 & 6 complexity wise. Single points of failure doesn't make a boss complex.

Given the fact that people of my old - more casually oriented - guild already cleared all CMs in the new wing the 2nd day (1st day was clearing normal mode) contradict that.

I wouldn't call them casual if they already have the raid done. But I guess this is where definitions can differ

Casual doesnt mean bad or unskilled.

Indeed but it would mean (for me personally) that they don't have that much time to play

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@yann.1946 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Well, who would have thought that? Isn't it obvious that this is the outcome after the layoffs earlier this year? I mean seriously what did you expect? A shift to the better in terms of challenging content when it was already a niche before the structural changes? Especially when the lead developer and most dedicated & communicative person here in the forums & reddit left the company.GW2 will be in a good state but raids and fractals won't be. At least that was and still is my logical conclusion. And finally this is a perfect one for the whole community. Wing 5 & 6 are too complex for a lot of players and also not interesting enough. Hopefully the new wing will change that and be a perfect equivalent to W4.

Great days/weeks for GW2 at the moment. I'm very happy.

The last boss of wing 7 is around wing 5 & 6 complexity wise. Single points of failure doesn't make a boss complex.

Given the fact that people of my old - more casually oriented - guild already cleared all CMs in the new wing the 2nd day (1st day was clearing normal mode) contradict that.

I wouldn't call them casual if they already have the raid done. But I guess this is where definitions can differ

Casual doesnt mean bad or unskilled.

Indeed but it would mean (for me personally) that they don't have that much time to play

It took the best guilds in the world around idk 3 to 4 hours to beat it? Thats cms, plus this thread is about the raid cms being rather easy so you already know this wont be a week long grind to kill it.

2 days is perfectly normal if you dedicate like a couple hours per day. Plus, the more skilled you are the less time u will need.

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Wing 7:1:32 hr from release - Last boss down5:42 hrs from release - All CMs Done6:52 hrs from release - all achievements done (Title + Chair)

Wing 529 hours from release - Last boss down1 Week from release - Dhuum CM down

See the difference? I don't care if normal is easy. I want CMs to be hard.

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@zealex.9410 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Well, who would have thought that? Isn't it obvious that this is the outcome after the layoffs earlier this year? I mean seriously what did you expect? A shift to the better in terms of challenging content when it was already a niche before the structural changes? Especially when the lead developer and most dedicated & communicative person here in the forums & reddit left the company.GW2 will be in a good state but raids and fractals won't be. At least that was and still is my logical conclusion. And finally this is a perfect one for the whole community. Wing 5 & 6 are too complex for a lot of players and also not interesting enough. Hopefully the new wing will change that and be a perfect equivalent to W4.

Great days/weeks for GW2 at the moment. I'm very happy.

The last boss of wing 7 is around wing 5 & 6 complexity wise. Single points of failure doesn't make a boss complex.

Given the fact that people of my old - more casually oriented - guild already cleared all CMs in the new wing the 2nd day (1st day was clearing normal mode) contradict that.

I wouldn't call them casual if they already have the raid done. But I guess this is where definitions can differ

Casual doesnt mean bad or unskilled.

Indeed but it would mean (for me personally) that they don't have that much time to play

It took the best guilds in the world around idk 3 to 4 hours to beat it? Thats cms, plus this thread is about the raid cms being rather easy so you already know this wont be a week long grind to kill it.

2 days is perfectly normal if you dedicate like a couple hours per day. Plus, the more skilled you are the less time u will need.

Yes, and personally dedicating a couple of hours per day I wouldn't consider casual. But that's a matter of definition I guess

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@yann.1946 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:Well, who would have thought that? Isn't it obvious that this is the outcome after the layoffs earlier this year? I mean seriously what did you expect? A shift to the better in terms of challenging content when it was already a niche before the structural changes? Especially when the lead developer and most dedicated & communicative person here in the forums & reddit left the company.GW2 will be in a good state but raids and fractals won't be. At least that was and still is my logical conclusion. And finally this is a perfect one for the whole community. Wing 5 & 6 are too complex for a lot of players and also not interesting enough. Hopefully the new wing will change that and be a perfect equivalent to W4.

Great days/weeks for GW2 at the moment. I'm very happy.

The last boss of wing 7 is around wing 5 & 6 complexity wise. Single points of failure doesn't make a boss complex.

Given the fact that people of my old - more casually oriented - guild already cleared all CMs in the new wing the 2nd day (1st day was clearing normal mode) contradict that.

I wouldn't call them casual if they already have the raid done. But I guess this is where definitions can differ

Casual doesnt mean bad or unskilled.

Indeed but it would mean (for me personally) that they don't have that much time to play

It took the best guilds in the world around idk 3 to 4 hours to beat it? Thats cms, plus this thread is about the raid cms being rather easy so you already know this wont be a week long grind to kill it.

2 days is perfectly normal if you dedicate like a couple hours per day. Plus, the more skilled you are the less time u will need.

Yes, and personally dedicating a couple of hours per day I wouldn't consider casual. But that's a matter of definition I guess

Knowing a week or more in advanve about upcomming content helps you make schedule.

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I am quite glad that both CMs and normals are easy. The LFG in NA has already died down, discords are not nearly as heated up as they were during w6 release, and it's just hard in general to make any kind of group that is not a static. This is quite weak and means the mode has become extremely insulated, if even fresh content from 2 days ago doesn't stimulate on/off players, newbies and people with alts to simply hook up a pug group and have a go at it.

To top it off most statics have obviously gotten everything by now, which is also pretty weak compared to even Qadim and Largos CM. Note that the problem is not that experienced, seasoned and highly organized groups have gotten it easily, as this is only expected after 7 wings and Anet can only shake up the gameplay so much. The real surprise is that, in spite of finally popping up easy content, the community has already become so insulated and averse to raids as a game mode/raid pugging, that newbies don't even want the freebies, so to speak. Wouldn't be surprised if this is the last raid for a quite longer time span than it even was before.

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@"Vinceman.4572" said:Well, who would have thought that? Isn't it obvious that this is the outcome after the layoffs earlier this year? I mean seriously what did you expect? A shift to the better in terms of challenging content when it was already a niche before the structural changes? Especially when the lead developer and most dedicated & communicative person here in the forums & reddit left the company.GW2 will be in a good state but raids and fractals won't be. At least that was and still is my logical conclusion. And finally this is a perfect one for the whole community. Wing 5 & 6 are too complex for a lot of players and also not interesting enough. Hopefully the new wing will change that and be a perfect equivalent to W4.

Great days/weeks for GW2 at the moment. I'm very happy.

I don't know Vinceman, to be honest, it feels like the game is strongly letting its players down in the End Game PvE content. I understand that Raids are not much played by the GW2 community, and that it's not the primary focus of Anet... bla bla bla.... but I've had player talking to me completely depressed almost about how easy the wings where. Some people compared it to "World Bosses" !!! World Bosses !!! It's sad, but it's starting to feel like, for challenging PvE content we should just go play another game...

Also Raids, are not everything, but all in all they need more inexhaustive content that players can play at a try hard level. Cause right now, the PvE scene in GW2 is seriously dying. I see a lot of new players who get into raids, that are really hyped about raids for the first few months, they create multiple characters, do various raids, play various builds etc.... have fun spamming raids for a little while, and after they've done that, that's it. The game doesn't leave you room for improvement beyond a certain point. (By that I mean, you just grow bored of raids, and don't see a point in improving beyond a certain point).

I know that you can do every boss with a try hard scenario and try to kill at as fast as possible, however, it's hard to see a point in it. It's fun to do once or twice, but it just becomes very grindy and repetitive. And from what I'm seeing, even try hard Guilds are struggling to maintain their players interested. Or at least that's how it feels.

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@Krzysztof.5973 said:

Wing 7:1:32 hr from release - Last boss down5:42 hrs from release - All CMs Done6:52 hrs from release - all achievements done (Title + Chair)

Wing 529 hours from release - Last boss down1 Week from release - Dhuum CM down

See the difference? I don't care if normal is easy. I want CMs to be hard.

They also nerfed confusion, cause it was too easy... hahaha I believe a few hours after patch release xD

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