Why is fear magic a thing?

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.

Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Based on the new types that would be courage magic instilling fear. It is a natural reaction to a threat, not horror.

If fear was a subset of mind magic it would be Mordremoth not Zhaitan who primarily uses it. That being said Deadeye display no usage of fear while Necromancer instill it through their death shrouds among other things.

I think that places fear magic in the death sphere.

Isn't the death sphere is Zhaitan's sphere?

Yes. Zhaitan has two spheres, death and shadow. Fear magic is closer to death shrouds and the underworld than it is to teleportation and shadows. Thus it is probably in the death sphere. Mordremoth doesn't fear so it unlikely it is a subset of mind magic. Mental magic is not a thing; mental effects transcend schools from commands, to illusions, to certain curses.

When Deadeye uses Fear magic, the effect is Torment.

Deadeye don't have access to torment. Also torment is not fear, it a reaction to mental or physical suffering, something mesmers/necromancers/mallyx can easily do via magic, warrior through injury, and thieves/iboga through venom/poison.

Steal Resistance applies torment, although I'm not sure how that connects to fear. Guild Wars 1 had at least one Torment-like effect that was linked to fear, though.

I think it is worth keeping in mind that, like Confusion,

most

sources of Torment are magical (and poisons applying Torment

may

be magical in nature). I wouldn't say that torment = fear magic - since obviously there are nonmagical sources of Torment application and Torment wouldn't be the only form of it, but there could be a connection.

If fear magic = curses then perhaps. After all fear can't be its only effect, and you could group negative physiological changes and call it fear magic.

And it is because most sources of torment are magical that I think there is no connection.

Torment is split across illusions, demonic energy (revenant/scourge), and necromancy.

If there was some innate connection you would see it with mesmers, revenants, or the scourge (skills like ghastly breach which mention going into the RoT.)

Thief gain access to Torment through Shadow magic.

Deadeye: "mastery of shadow magic" also deadeye,

no torment.

Steal Resistance from Revenant targets.One in Chamber (random), a chance to receive Steal Resistance.Under that logic aegis is part of shadow magic rather than faith. A stolen skill is not their's to claim..Malicious Sneak Attack.If physical attacks can cause torment, so can magically assisted ones, like dancing dagger.Moreover look at mallyx and scourge. Why would thief gain one torment skill if it was part of shadow magic.Also this discussion is about fear magic. Something thieves only get through necro. Not a good indication it comes from shadow magic either

"Why would thief gain one torment skill..." Wait, what?Dancing DaggerShadow StrikeSkale VenomPressure Strikingand Malicious Sneak Attack

Anything available to the Thief is available to the Deadeye. The Deadeye's mastery of Shadow magic is mostly focused on Shadow Arts, which are mainly defensive traits. We have not seen an offensive Shadow magic specialization, which would be some kind of Shadow Mage.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Honestly, "fear magic" made more sense to me than courage magic (if one were to take "growth magic" to be "plant/nature magic" at least). Zhaitan has a pretty heavy use of fear in his arc, so much so I figured it was a subset of shadow magic.

Honestly, the dialogue for that step was downright silly that I'm not really sure they thought it through. Pretty much every one was "x magic? Well, just immerse yourself in x and the magic will come, maybe!"

Fear magic is a subset of Mental magic which surprising enough was not part of the list (Lyssa will be sad). Shadow magic is different though. Sure you can be afraid of the shadows but that's just a natural reaction to something unseen or incomprehensible and it's not the shadows that instill fear in your mind. Warrior Shout can also cause fear, but it is not Shadow magic.

Based on the new types that would be courage magic instilling fear. It is a natural reaction to a threat, not horror.

If fear was a subset of mind magic it would be Mordremoth not Zhaitan who primarily uses it. That being said Deadeye display no usage of fear while Necromancer instill it through their death shrouds among other things.

I think that places fear magic in the death sphere.

Isn't the death sphere is Zhaitan's sphere?

Yes. Zhaitan has two spheres, death and shadow. Fear magic is closer to death shrouds and the underworld than it is to teleportation and shadows. Thus it is probably in the death sphere. Mordremoth doesn't fear so it unlikely it is a subset of mind magic. Mental magic is not a thing; mental effects transcend schools from commands, to illusions, to certain curses.

When Deadeye uses Fear magic, the effect is Torment.

Deadeye don't have access to torment. Also torment is not fear, it a reaction to mental or physical suffering, something mesmers/necromancers/mallyx can easily do via magic, warrior through injury, and thieves/iboga through venom/poison.

Steal Resistance applies torment, although I'm not sure how that connects to fear. Guild Wars 1 had at least one Torment-like effect that was linked to fear, though.

I think it is worth keeping in mind that, like Confusion,

most

sources of Torment are magical (and poisons applying Torment

may

be magical in nature). I wouldn't say that torment = fear magic - since obviously there are nonmagical sources of Torment application and Torment wouldn't be the only form of it, but there could be a connection.

If fear magic = curses then perhaps. After all fear can't be its only effect, and you could group negative physiological changes and call it fear magic.

And it is because most sources of torment are magical that I think there is no connection.

Torment is split across illusions, demonic energy (revenant/scourge), and necromancy.

If there was some innate connection you would see it with mesmers, revenants, or the scourge (skills like ghastly breach which mention going into the RoT.)

Thief gain access to Torment through Shadow magic.

Deadeye: "mastery of shadow magic" also deadeye,

no torment.

Steal Resistance from Revenant targets.One in Chamber (random), a chance to receive Steal Resistance.Under that logic aegis is part of shadow magic rather than faith. A stolen skill is not their's to claim..Malicious Sneak Attack.If physical attacks can cause torment, so can magically assisted ones, like dancing dagger.Moreover look at mallyx and scourge. Why would thief gain one torment skill if it was part of shadow magic.Also this discussion is about fear magic. Something thieves only get through necro. Not a good indication it comes from shadow magic either

"Why would thief gain one torment skill..." Wait, what?Dancing DaggerShadow StrikeSkale VenomPressure Strikingand Malicious Sneak Attack

Anything available to the Thief is available to the Deadeye. The Deadeye's mastery of Shadow magic is mostly focused on Shadow Arts, which are mainly defensive traits. We have not seen an offensive Shadow magic specialization, which would be some kind of Shadow Mage.

The vast majority of torment on thief comes from skills before mastering shadow magic. Pushing the goalposts for some sort of shadow mage ignores the fact Deadeye literally throw orbs of it at people and it doesn't inflict torment. And on the topic of shadow mages, the only necro field that causes torment is not nightfall, but ghastly breach. Torment doesn't come from shadows, it comes from mental manipulation and corruptive energies. A warrior that learns shadowstep and carries around venom would be just as proficient as a thief or an iboga.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:The vast majority of torment on thief comes from skills before mastering shadow magic. Pushing the goalposts for some sort of shadow mage ignores the fact Deadeye literally throw orbs of it at people and it doesn't inflict torment. And on the topic of shadow mages, the only necro field that causes torment is not nightfall, but ghastly breach. Torment doesn't come from shadows, it comes from mental manipulation and corruptive energies. A warrior that learns shadowstep and carries around venom would be just as proficient as a thief or an iboga.

First: Holy quotechain batman. Kinda tired of getting notifications because of a back and forth between two folks. So I'll chime in again:

Shadow Arts is most likely the same as "Shadow Magic". So would be things like stealth, shadow stepping, and all the other things thieves do. I would hardly say that thieves are not masters of shadow magic. Deadeye just goes more into magic than the martial and tool sides of thief (whereas daredevil goes more into the martial side).

That said, nothing says all Shadow Magic must inflict Torment, just because some shadow magic can inflict torment. You're arguing a fallacy by proclaiming that it must.

Similarly, proclaiming torment has a singular source - or rather, two sources - ("mental manipulation and corruptive energies") would be a fallicious argument as well, since that's very much incorrect. The torment condition comes from:

• Impalement and poisons
• Mesmers' Ether manipulation
• Necromancer's curses and corruption magic that could easily be considered shadow magic
• And a whole shit-ton of revenants fucking around with Mists magic

That all said, most of the thieves' application of torment seems more mundane in nature - impalement and poisons. That, however, does not really relate to fear magic and whether or not it can be considered a subdomain of shadow magic. I would not consider torment to be at all related to fear, either, given the fact that the animation for torment is red spikes. Resembling the notion of how one's vision is hindered streaks of variously colored light (often white or red) when in immense pain. I think the torment condition is exactly that: immense pain.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:The vast majority of torment on thief comes from skills before mastering shadow magic. Pushing the goalposts for some sort of shadow mage ignores the fact Deadeye literally throw orbs of it at people and it doesn't inflict torment. And on the topic of shadow mages, the only necro field that causes torment is not nightfall, but ghastly breach. Torment doesn't come from shadows, it comes from mental manipulation and corruptive energies. A warrior that learns shadowstep and carries around venom would be just as proficient as a thief or an iboga.

First: Holy quotechain batman. Kinda tired of getting notifications because of a back and forth between two folks. So I'll chime in again:

Shadow Arts is most likely the same as "Shadow Magic". So would be things like stealth, shadow stepping, and all the other things thieves do. I would hardly say that thieves are

not

masters of shadow magic. Deadeye just goes more into magic than the martial and tool sides of thief (whereas daredevil goes more into the martial side).

That said, nothing says all Shadow Magic must inflict Torment, just because some shadow magic can inflict torment. You're arguing a fallacy by proclaiming that it must.

Similarly, proclaiming torment has a singular source - or rather, two sources - ("mental manipulation and corruptive energies") would be a fallicious argument as well, since that's very much

incorrect

. The torment condition comes from:

• Impalement and poisons
• Mesmers' Ether manipulation
• Necromancer's curses and corruption magic that could easily be considered shadow magic
• And a whole kitten-ton of revenants kitten around with Mists magic

That all said,

most

of the thieves' application of torment seems more mundane in nature - impalement and poisons. That, however, does not really relate to

fear magic

and whether or not it can be considered a subdomain of shadow magic. I would not consider torment to be at all related to fear, either, given the fact that the animation for torment is red spikes. Resembling the notion of how one's vision is hindered streaks of variously colored light (often white or red) when in immense pain. I think the torment condition is exactly that:

immense pain

.

The condition's name is not a misnomer. It is called Torment for a reason. The target of this condition is being tormented but spirits/ghosts/evil energies.

As for the Thief venom. There is a consumable with the same name, Skale Venom. However, this consumable doesn't apply Torment. When the Thief uses this same venom, the Thief infuses it with Shadow Magic to apply Torment. So I disagree that Torment is "immense pain".

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:The condition's name is not a misnomer. It is called Torment for a reason. The target of this condition is being tormented but spirits/ghosts/evil energies.

So a warrior impaling someone with a sword causes the impaled to be tormented by spirits, ghosts, or evil energies?

No, sorry, but that's bullshit.

Besides, I never said the name's a misnomer. It's just overly generic. It'd be no different than calling the condition "pain". Torment just sounds better.

The source is mutable and changing. There isn't a singular source or cause of torment, just as there isn't a singular type of source for bleeding or chilled. It sounds like you're trying to connect the condition "torment" with Kralkatorrik's Torment which are two separate things entirely that merely share the same name - and they share the same name not because of similar origins, but because they're inflicting the same thing upon the victim: torment, agony, pain.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:The condition's name is not a misnomer. It is called Torment for a reason. The target of this condition is being tormented but spirits/ghosts/evil energies.

So

a warrior impaling someone with a sword

causes the impaled to be tormented by spirits, ghosts, or evil energies?

That was originally bleeding condition. The change to Torment is due to balance than to lore. Warrior has no business in applying Torment and this is the only skill that applies Torment. This is an exemption rather than the rule.

No, sorry, but that's kitten.

Agree to disagree.

Besides, I never said the name's a misnomer. It's just overly generic. It'd be no different than calling the condition "pain". Torment just sounds better.

I never said that you said it's a misnomer. I'm simply saying that naming the condition as Torment has meaning compare to a meaningless name, Pain.

Confusion also causes pain, Bleeding also causes pain, Poison also causes pain -- "Pain" is generic, Torment is not.

The source is mutable and changing. There isn't a singular source or cause of torment, just as there isn't a singular type of source for bleeding or chilled. It sounds like you're trying to connect the condition "torment" with Kralkatorrik's Torment which are two separate things entirely that merely share the same name - and they share the same name not because of similar origins, but because they're inflicting the same thing upon the victim: torment, agony, pain.

I never said that Torment comes from a single source, rather regardless of the source, it does the same thing -- to torment the target.

Mesmer: Torments target with illusions.Necro: Torments target with a curses.Revenant: Torments target with the Mist.Thief: Torments target with Shadow Magic.Warrior: No business applying Torment.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

None of the conditions one may apply are unique or magical in nature. You can use magic to apply them, but they themselves are literally exactly what it says on the tin: condition ailments.

Bleeding. Burning. Chilled. Confusion. Torment. Crippled. Immobilized. These are all physical based ailments. Their origins may differ, but none are magical in origin.

Torment is immense pain that increases in harm when one tries to move. There's nothing magical about that, as anyone with ailments along the line of arthritis will quickly tell you.

Thieves apply torment not (only) with magic, but with tools. By applying venom, throwing daggers, and striking pressure points.

Thieves do use shadow magic, but no case of clear shadow magic applies torment.

The condition known as "torment" is not magical in nature.

But this is becoming just like you arguing that Aurene didn't corrupt Caithe - despite ArenaNet devs outright stating otherwise - you throw aside any evidence that disagrees with your proclamation, and make up stuff out of nowhere and present it as facts. So I'll end this here. Please do not quote my posts again, I've grown tired of constant notifications in this thread.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

Me: The vast majority of torment on thief comes from skills before mastering shadow magic. Pushing the goalposts for some sort of shadow mage ignores the fact Deadeye literally throw orbs of it at people and it doesn't inflict torment. And on the topic of shadow mages, the only necro field that causes torment is not nightfall, but ghastly breach. Torment doesn't come from shadows, it comes from mental manipulation and corruptive energies. A warrior that learns shadowstep and carries around venom would be just as proficient as a thief or an iboga.

Konig: First: Holy quotechain batman. Kinda tired of getting notifications because of a back and forth between two folks. So I'll chime in again:

Konig: Shadow Arts is most likely the same as "Shadow Magic". So would be things like stealth, shadow stepping, and all the other things thieves do. I would hardly say that thieves are not masters of shadow magic. Deadeye just goes more into magic than the martial and tool sides of thief (whereas daredevil goes more into the martial side).

I'm operating off their actual description. "Their mastery of shadow magic lets them cast cantrips..."

Konig: That said, nothing says all Shadow Magic must inflict Torment, just because some shadow magic can inflict torment. You're arguing a fallacy by proclaiming that it must.

My assumption was mastery would result in them showing off more of the condition if the two were related.

Konig: Similarly, proclaiming torment has a singular source - or rather, two sources - ("mental manipulation and corruptive energies") would be a fallicious argument as well, since that's very much incorrect. The torment condition comes from:

• Impalement and poisons
• Mesmers' Ether manipulation
• Necromancer's curses and corruption magic that could easily be considered shadow magic
• And a whole kitten-ton of revenants kitten around with Mists magic

I dropped the first as non-magical, and grouped the latter two because they are associated with either the corruption traitline, the corruption effect, or have corruption in the skill name. I refer to all four in earlier posts.

Konig: That all said, most of the thieves' application of torment seems more mundane in nature - impalement and poisons. That, however, does not really relate to fear magic and whether or not it can be considered a subdomain of shadow magic.

Correct. Back at square one. I still think of it as death sphere, with the shrouds, lich, and spectral ring as primary examples.

edit: After replying I read the rest of the posts have removed Konig from the tag.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:I'm operating off their actual description. "Their mastery of shadow magic lets them cast cantrips..."

That is the Deadeye's description, yes. But that does not omit thieves from having mastery of shadow magic either.

I dropped the first as non-magical, and grouped the latter two because they are associated with either the corruption traitline, the corruption effect, or have corruption in the skill name. I refer to all four in earlier posts.

I would not consider a necromancer's magic to be at all related to the revenant's. After all, one's magical source is Tyrian, the other's is the Mists. Nor would I consider mesmer magic to be related to either.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:I'm operating off their actual description. "Their mastery of shadow magic lets them cast cantrips..."

That is the Deadeye's description, yes. But that does not omit thieves from having mastery of shadow magic either.

Shadow magic could have several subfields like biology, allowing multiple forms of mastery. But thieves are not scholars. It would not be hard for a foray into spellcasting to encapsulate all that came before. And indeed steal, shadowstep, stealth, etc are all incorporated into various deadeye effects and often expanded upon. If torment was part of shadow magic I think it would be similarly represented.

I dropped the first as non-magical, and grouped the latter two because they are associated with either the corruption traitline, the corruption effect, or have corruption in the skill name. I refer to all four in earlier posts.

I would not consider a necromancer's magic to be at all related to the revenant's. After all, one's magical source is Tyrian, the other's is the Mists. Nor would I consider mesmer magic to be related to either.

Corruption can refer to many things. I was grouping by nomenclature not effect. And I never said mesmer magic is related, except perhaps as an illusory form of the former.

But back to fear. Shrouds, lich, and spectral effects as the primarily sources of fear on necro and all are solidly within death magic.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

None of the conditions one may apply are unique or magical in nature. You can use magic to apply them, but they themselves are literally exactly what it says on the tin: condition ailments.

Bleeding. Burning. Chilled. Confusion. Torment. Crippled. Immobilized. These are all physical based ailments. Their origins may differ, but none are magical in origin.

Torment is immense pain that increases in harm when one tries to move. There's nothing magical about that, as anyone with ailments along the line of arthritis will quickly tell you.

Thieves apply torment not (only) with magic, but with tools. By applying venom, throwing daggers, and striking pressure points.

Thieves do use shadow magic, but no case of clear shadow magic applies torment.

The condition known as "torment" is not magical in nature.

All conditions are magical. As soon as the magic effect wears off, the target is back to normal. If your character was physically crippled, it would not return to normal after the duration of the effect. You would need to seek a healer to fix the broken leg. The fact that the Crippled effect has a duration, it is a kind of magic manipulating the range of motion of your legs.

For example;Chilled inside the volcano in Mount Maelstrom would be physically impossible.Burning underwater would be physically impossible.Crippling a worm would be physically impossible.

These are possible because they are magical based.

As for the Thief, their weapons are infused with Shadow Magic. Striking pressure points would only deal damage no different than Mug + Sleight of Hands, but infusing the strike with Shadow magic, it leaves a tormenting magic into that point.

[Amanda Whitemoon.6173]

For example;Chilled inside the volcano in Mount Maelstrom would be physically impossible.Burning underwater would be physically impossible.Crippling a worm would be physically impossible.

im not sure if crippling a worm would be impossable, damage to the body would probably impare its movementand you can burn underwater, its just very difficult because of the water constant lowering the temperate needed for burning. look up magnesium

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Amanda Whitemoon.6173 said:For example;Chilled inside the volcano in Mount Maelstrom would be physically impossible.Burning underwater would be physically impossible.Crippling a worm would be physically impossible.

im not sure if crippling a worm would be impossable, damage to the body would probably impare its movementand you can burn underwater, its just very difficult because of the water constant lowering the temperate needed for burning. look up magnesium

No need to make sense of a crippled worm, because it's magic. No need for magnesium for underwater burning, because, you know, it's magic.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Sorry to disillusion you, but there's nothing magical about making someone bleed when you put a sword through them, or burning someone when you throw a torch into their face.

Conditions are not innately magical. That's a downright fact.

Core engineers don't even use any magic, yet have plenty of conditions - particularly from their grenades and mortars that can bleed, poison, chill.

Can they be magical in origin? Sure. Must they be? No. And this extends to torment as well.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:With the Skyscale collection we are reintroduced to air, water, earth, fire, ice, blood, death, spirit, and life magic. And we get three new terms, fear magic, courage magic, and growth magic. Growth makes perfect sense, courage sort of, but fear seems like the odd one out. Fear doesn't have the same representation as any of the other 11. It feels like they only chose it for duality with courage.

lore wise it should be a necro thing, because curses.