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Helm's Deep "reverse break out" event idea


Chaba.5410

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It looks like the thread was deleted? I don't know why, but the event idea was constructive, on-topic, and worthy of discussion. I don't see why the idea should get lost.

IIRC the idea was to have a boss level NPC that would help an outnumbered defense team sally forth from an objective to try to break a siege as a means to incentivize an "all hope is lost" fight. I found the idea to incentivize fights to be superior to more heavy-handed solutions such as the old oasis event in the desert bl that basically let an attacking force into an objective for free.

In addition, why not bring back the old siegerazer that helped siege an objective?

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@"Eliren.4985" said:If you want PvE go to PvE gamemodes. Its already bad enough with the groups only focused on PPT that refuse to fight so adding even more PvE would just make things worse.

Yes, it is bad that groups only focused on PPT refuse to fight, which is the idea behind creating an event that incentivizes fights.

When you say "adding more PvE" without explaining what you mean by "PvE" leaves an open-ended statement. By your definition even keep lords are PvE, which we know they are not since they exist as part of the objective's capture mechanics and objectives are expressly designed to be fought over by players (I.E. there are no automated NPCS that attempt to take an objective without players).

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the ppt guys spend hours and hours defending camps to upgrade the structures. the reward is a higher score for that tier building.you cannot await to just ravish this hard work in minutes cause you find it popcorn entertainment to conquer such building brain afk 11111 on rams and just flip the thing. there will be no reason to play the gamemode anymore.

anet should have never changed the damage on the gates. a t3 buidling has been worked for so should be a challgenge to ever turn around easy.

dragon stand, dragonfall, silverwastes, etc - all the pve maps grant for your lord of the rings cinema escort event.

if you dont understand that you never did ppt and never have been into wvw for real.

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@"SlateSloan.3654" said:the ppt guys spend hours and hours defending camps to upgrade the structures. the reward is a higher score for that tier building.you cannot await to just ravish this hard work in minutes cause you find it popcorn entertainment to conquer such building brain afk 11111 on rams and just flip the thing. there will be no reason to play the gamemode anymore.

anet should have never changed the damage on the gates. a t3 buidling has been worked for so should be a challgenge to ever turn around easy.

dragon stand, dragonfall, silverwastes, etc - all the pve maps grant for your lord of the rings cinema escort event.

if you dont understand that you never did ppt and never have been into wvw for real.

People who don't understand how defending structures is a means towards a fight against other players have never been into WvW for real. The term is "PPT for fights".

The original WvW design included weak arrow carts, weak defenses that were buffed at HoT release and then thankfully nerfed again recently, and a "capture the orb" mechanic to incentivize fights in, around, and for structures. WvW was never intended to be a game mode where one could spend hours and hours escorting yaks to upgrade structures without any challenge because the whole reason you upgrade a structure in the first place was due to expecting a fight. People used to have to talk to the quartermaster and pay for upgrades whereas now they can just afk and it happens automatically. That was a huge buff to defense that hasn't been addressed yet. There's absolutely zero reason why an empty map should automatically upgrade.

That said, the original idea in the deleted thread was a last stand mechanic for outnumbered defenders that had nothing to do with what tier/upgrades a structure had. It could be a paper tower that just was captured 10 minutes earlier. The point was to give outnumbered defenders an incentive to stay and fight with a fighting chance.

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the base idea was solid. defenders need a buff to actually incentivize going out there tho, like iron hide in a small radius (no dmg buff). the event shouldn't last long, maybe a couple of pushes that last 10 seconds each. the npcs shouldn't be push overs also, they should actually do damage and survive (not too much). they shouldn't do any damage to siege tho.

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@SlateSloan.3654 said:the ppt guys spend hours and hours defending camps to upgrade the structures. the reward is a higher score for that tier building.you cannot await to just ravish this hard work in minutes cause you find it popcorn entertainment to conquer such building brain afk 11111 on rams and just flip the thing. there will be no reason to play the gamemode anymore.

anet should have never changed the damage on the gates. a t3 buidling has been worked for so should be a challgenge to ever turn around easy.

dragon stand, dragonfall, silverwastes, etc - all the pve maps grant for your lord of the rings cinema escort event.

if you dont understand that you never did ppt and never have been into wvw for real.

I liked that a lot too, when it took a real effort to get something tiered up and then a real effort to flip it, but it did have the unfortunate side effect of creating a lot of stagnant maps. I think anet is trying to move the mode away from that kind of marathon play into more of a pick up and play kind of a situation, where you can pop in for a few minutes at a time and still find rewarding things to do. The carryover participation and defensive nerfs are evidence of this, and if that is the goal then I think they have found a good balance where they are now, where only the laziest of attacks fail to breach and it pretty much comes down to who can pvp . . .

With the increased ease of flipping tiered structures they could also do something to make tiering structures easier, like make sups from supply drops count towards tiering or something, just so you didn't spend hours on a map where everything is paper, but I don't think that's necessary, would just create a little more balance . . .

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The idea to send out an npc to the likes of siegerazor to help defend something if you're highly outnumbered is an ok proposal, but still not something I'm fully on board with.

The original idea was at 3mins to have the lord himself open the gates and come out to fight the attackers, basically forcing defenders to give up their biggest advantage, and potentially give up their lord to a larger attack force and hand them the structure.

There are ton of problems with this idea either way, and should just be left to the human element to attack and defend.

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I could maybe see having some kind of extra NPC spawn at a time mark (say 5 minutes) if you defend the structure successfully long enough to help the defenders. Like a lord but more durable. It could mainly do soft CC with the occasional hard CC and heal and cleanse nearby allies at an interval. Something to give the defenders a possible choice to push out and maybe grab some kills but not force them to give up the advantage if they know they couldn't possible win (e.g 10v40).

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@SlateSloan.3654 said:the ppt guys spend hours and hours defending camps to upgrade the structures. the reward is a higher score for that tier building.you cannot await to just ravish this hard work in minutes cause you find it popcorn entertainment to conquer such building brain afk 11111 on rams and just flip the thing. there will be no reason to play the gamemode anymore.

anet should have never changed the damage on the gates. a t3 buidling has been worked for so should be a challgenge to ever turn around easy.

dragon stand, dragonfall, silverwastes, etc - all the pve maps grant for your lord of the rings cinema escort event.

if you dont understand that you never did ppt and never have been into wvw for real.

So you tell people who attack objectives to go pve and escort mobs instead of ppt players who do escorts in wvw?

Arent you mixing things up a bit?

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@Chaba.5410 said:

@"Eliren.4985" said:If you want PvE go to PvE gamemodes. Its already bad enough with the groups only focused on PPT that refuse to fight so adding even more PvE would just make things worse.

Yes, it is bad that groups only focused on PPT refuse to fight, which is the idea behind creating an event that incentivizes fights.

When you say "adding more PvE" without explaining what you mean by "PvE" leaves an open-ended statement. By your definition even keep lords are PvE, which we know they are not since they exist as part of the objective's capture mechanics and objectives are expressly designed to be fought over by players (I.E. there are no automated NPCS that attempt to take an objective without players).

I get your point but you have to take into consideration the fact that people who won't even fight to defend their objectives unless they have tons of siege really won't start fighting more simply because they can get help from a npc to take objectives. Besides, adding something like this for the outnumbered group to get won't change much, they will still get blobbed down and simply loose even more motivation to fight as they have just spent x amount of time just to get the thing so they can try take something.

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@Eliren.4985 said:I get your point but you have to take into consideration the fact that people who won't even fight to defend their objectives unless they have tons of siege really won't start fighting more simply because they can get help from a npc to take objectives. Besides, adding something like this for the outnumbered group to get won't change much, they will still get blobbed down and simply loose even more motivation to fight as they have just spent x amount of time just to get the thing so they can try take something.

you cant lump everyone together and expect it to be factual. there are those who wouldn't push out no matter what, as i'm sure there are plenty of people who would.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Eliren.4985" said:I get your point but you have to take into consideration the fact that people who won't even fight to defend their objectives unless they have tons of siege really won't start fighting more simply because they can get help from a npc to take objectives. Besides, adding something like this for the outnumbered group to get won't change much, they will still get blobbed down and simply loose even more motivation to fight as they have just spent x amount of time just to get the thing so they can try take something.

you cant lump everyone together and expect it to be factual. there are those who wouldn't push out no matter what, as i'm sure there are plenty of people who would.

There defenetly are those who won't push no matter what which is why I made sure to mention at the start that "the people who won't even defend their objectives" so as to not make everyone into one group and instead keep them split up. You have those who fight and you have those who dont, that's just how the game is these days. Adding a objective the outnumbered forces can benefit from could easily cause a issue if it's not balanced correctly and with how Anet has done their balancing so far it's not looking too bright. It's a good idea on paper but it's not something I realisticly see being added to wvw anytime soon.

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@steki.1478 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Attackers need to earn their way in and claim an objective.

Like using 500+ supplies and trying to outsustain ACs, trebs and other aoes from freecasters?

Shield generators, Mesmer pulls, scourge / revenant to keep walls hot, Fireband with their retal and bubbles + scrappers doing scrapper things.

If you spend 500+ taking a single objective your doing something very very wrong considering most people spend 500 to take a T3 keep.

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@Eliren.4985 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Attackers need to earn their way in and claim an objective.

Like using 500+ supplies and trying to outsustain ACs, trebs and other aoes from freecasters?

Shield generators, Mesmer pulls, scourge / revenant to keep walls hot, Fireband with their retal and bubbles + scrappers doing scrapper things.

If you spend 500+ taking a single objective your doing something very very wrong considering most people spend 500 to take a T3 keep.

You can cast the same skills as defender as well. You dont even have to be on the wall, spread around and focus from all sides, they cant kill all of you at once. If they push, you destroy their siege and they have to spend even more supplies.

They spend less than 500 supplies because you let them flip it freely. If defenders are good it can even take 1k supplies for enemy to flip a t3 keep.

Stealth and siege disabling is a thing. So is damage to those shield gens.

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I've suggested similar ideas to this one in the past and they've been ignored, so it's obviously something that Anet aren't interested in doing.

Expect more golem weeks and no-down-state level novelty tweaks. Don't expect any meaningful changes, this game is done.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Attackers need to earn their way in and claim an objective.

Like using 500+ supplies and trying to outsustain ACs, trebs and other aoes from freecasters?

Are you saying it’s impossible to take a fortified structure with defenders?

Depends on size and quality of both, but generally it just takes effort to do so, which is enough to "earn their way in".

You can't flip a fortified objective with 0 effort, but you can upgrade it with 0 player impact.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Attackers need to earn their way in and claim an objective.

Like using 500+ supplies and trying to outsustain ACs, trebs and other aoes from freecasters?

Are you saying it’s impossible to take a fortified structure with defenders?

Again, tier/upgrade status shouldn't matter for a last stand mechanic that is based on attacker/defender numbers. Talking about objective upgrades is useless to this thread.

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@steki.1478 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:Attackers need to earn their way in and claim an objective.

Like using 500+ supplies and trying to outsustain ACs, trebs and other aoes from freecasters?

Are you saying it’s impossible to take a fortified structure with defenders?

Depends on size and quality of both, but generally it just takes effort to do so, which is enough to "earn their way in".

You can't flip a fortified objective with 0 effort, but you can upgrade it with 0 player impact.

There ya go... “effort”! That’s how ya do it!

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