Why Thief can't get GS

[Jack Redline.5379]

So. To be completely honest I had to think of this for a few minutes and I have done so because the amount of ppl who want GS for next E-spec is too darn high. But I have came up with a simple and understandable explanationThe reason why Thief will not be able to ever have Greatsword, Hammer, Axe and Mace is simpleInitiative System

Let me explain this and elaborate on examplesI start with GSThe main reason is DMGfor that smart person who will come in and say that they can make it support weapon yea the support is issue as well.

Lets have a comparison from other classes using GSlets go with the very basic AA since that one has smallest dmg out put Each of the AA's of each mentioned class has cast time at least 1/2 sec (i am not counting in the buffs or dmging condi the grant just dmg output) I will not use Mesmer and Reaper because in this case the AA is ranged which doesnt fall within Melee class perspective.Note. Again I note that AA is the weakest of all Attacks usually the other 4 attacks are growing in strenght of dmg or support you gain and so they would cost more ini and in other classes they have bigger CD and castgin time. So I am using the AA to illustrate only the smallest possible dmg this change would do to a game. It would get worse the more attacks i would consider

THESE ARE BASE DMG MODIFIERS THAT CAN BE AMPLIFIED BY ARMOR AND BOONS

Warior AA=> 282+383+504 = 1169

Guardian AA => 323+323+484 = 1130

Ranger => 258+323+524 = 1105

Note = These are core classes

Only weapon Thief has that can compare to these 3 is Staff with AA dmg 269+269+676 = 1214Another note = We couldnt have Staff before DrD if you remember which means this shouldnt be taken into consideration since other specs had their new Weapons by then which again did more dmg than ours

The strongest of Core weapon AA's was the one of main hand Dagger with 220*2+238+403 = 1081which isnt as much as the GS of basic Core classes did.

The reason behind this is that Thief works on base of Speed (at least it is supposed to)Ten thousand tiny little cuts = TTTLCClasses that have GS work like BAM you're dead = BURD

If you give a weapon like GS (or Hammer) to a Thief that is supposed to attack FAST and has Initiative which allows him to BURST FAST DMG You will create The single most OP cancer there is.We have seen what happened when they have introduced DE they gave us Rifle a weapon that has High basic dmg output and Thieves ini system allowed Deadeyes to kill anything and everything insantly. They had to nerf all other traits to the floor just to compensate out the DE since they couldnt just nerf the elite they have released 2 days ago.

Remember the iconic 5s killing of 4m golem?Peperdige Farm remembers.

That is the perfect example of what will happen if we get GS. 1st it will be new and buggy and when traited with our stuff it will become insanely strong weapon since its basic dmg modifier amplified by our Burst ability will make it 1 shot kill. And we dont want that. We have had enough of that snice Pof came out.Can you imagine a Thief with a GS blinking to you. Smacking you 5 times with GS which will kill you within those 5 Attacks? GS is slow because it deals 2nd most dmg in game after Hammer slow attacks GS has we wouldnt survive until we would strike someone and that is why it would have to be faster and if Thief makes them fast the game will become unplayable.

[Jack Redline.5379]

If anyone will get GS it will be Revenant. They can be Samurais = Heavy armor GS and they are blinking we all know that. Thief will get either Torch or Sword off hand. Since Anet cant allow us to get Stun locking Bursts of Hammer or a Mace. Axe is too strong for the ini as well. And Thief will not get Horn or Focus until a single sane person works in Anet. That would send all the normal Thieves away to other game publishers and Anet cant afford loosing customers like any normal company

[Alatar.7364]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

Or make GS hit with lower dmg and higher focus on its utility effects that it could have like daze or block, evade or blind, detarget or just simple swift reposition of the player character build in one of the weapon skills if it hits successfully, etc. etc. Stuff like that instead of black n' white dilemma between huge slow dmg or low fast dmg. It all comes down design choices and ideas devs could have including the ini cost of such skills.Regarding the idea of fast low dmg i wouldn't mind off-hand sword filling that role at all.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:snipe

Poster not realizing that all balance of weapons is related to some value in some file and has nothing in common with weapon design or class.

How do you explain staff being a good damage weapon on thief, yet support weapon on guardian? What if great sword was a support weapon on thief?

The reason why thief doesn't get access to great sword and might never get access to great sword is that it likely doesn't fit any kit or lore elements to work around. This entire damage discussion is to be plain: absolutely idiotic. Using arbitrary damage numbers for which the base line coefficients were changed multiple times by now (remember when mesmer great sword hit for whet noodle damage for years? Peperdige Farm remembers) is even more idiotic.

UNLESS you were trying to make a bad funny, in which case I apologize for not getting the joke.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

if they design it like staff it will be fine.

[Safandula.8723]

i would love to have on gs 5, arcdivider with evade frame for 5 ini.i can even take it for 6

[Jack Redline.5379]

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

Or make GS hit with lower dmg and higher focus on its utility effects that it could have like daze or block, evade or blind, detarget or just simple swift reposition of the player character build in one of the weapon skills if it hits successfully, etc. etc. Stuff like that instead of black n' white dilemma between huge slow dmg or low fast dmg. It all comes down design choices and ideas devs could have including the ini cost of such skills.Regarding the idea of fast low dmg i wouldn't mind off-hand sword filling that role at all.

dude just like I said It will still be an issue since the spam we will be allowed with Ini will overtune the buffs and utility we would gain from GS skillsit is like d/d 3 spam or staff 3 spamThe same thing but you will have huge GS in ur hands with big range either spamming utility or dmg and it is going to be CANCER v 3.0

EDIT

Also I hav noted that we cant have more daze implemented into the ini spam cuz it would cause chaos. You'd be able to stunlock ppl and kill them in single burst because of how strong dps of a GS isAnd they cant simply use smaller values on a GS just cuz it is for thief. What kind of GS is it? A plastic? GS has some basic values around which it moves just like all weaponsAlso p/d style on GS is tbh quite stupid like if you hit an opponent with a GS you reposition urself (shadowstep lets say) away.Like what? You stroke him so hard you flew away xDNot that it wouldnt be fitting. Imagine hitting a war and flying away cuz the force you put into the hit wasnt enough to harm him and he reflected it back to you so you flew away like a Noodle xD

[Jack Redline.5379]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

You are not realizing that the value of the base dmg is the basic multiplier of the skill you are usingThe base dmg is multiplied by the gear and food/uti you use so if basic dmg of AA is 25 and you multiply it by 100 with your gear you get 2500 dmg (mATh)Staff is good dmg weapon on thief because dmg is low and fast and is burstable cuz of iniIt is good support weapon on guard because it synergizes with his Traits and utilizes Combo's Guardian uses to supportAlso you are comparing dmg output with support output which is ''idiotic'' as you love to mention moreoverI am talking dmg Thief could cause with GS vs dmg other classes deal with GSIf I am to talk about support Thief can cause with GS I will compare it to support other classes achieve with GSComprende?Yes thief wont get GS also cuz loreBut the dmg issue it would cause is also a valid point.Not to mention I have said in OP that I will not compare Memesmer and Reaper to this since They use GS as a ranged weapon mainly AND I AM TALKING ABOUT MELEEsince Thief is Melee class (except for Rifle and SB)

And UNLESS you were trying to make bad funny, in which case you'd apologize for not getting the joke, you may

[Alatar.7364]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

Or make GS hit with lower dmg and higher focus on its utility effects that it could have like daze or block, evade or blind, detarget or just simple swift reposition of the player character build in one of the weapon skills if it hits successfully, etc. etc. Stuff like that instead of black n' white dilemma between huge slow dmg or low fast dmg. It all comes down design choices and ideas devs could have including the ini cost of such skills.Regarding the idea of fast low dmg i wouldn't mind off-hand sword filling that role at all.

dude just like I said It will still be an issue since the spam we will be allowed with Ini will overtune the buffs and utility we would gain from GS skillsit is like d/d 3 spam or staff 3 spamThe same thing but you will have huge GS in ur hands with big range either spamming utility or dmg and it is going to be CANCER v 3.0

EDIT

Also I hav noted that we cant have more daze implemented into the ini spam cuz it would cause chaos. You'd be able to stunlock ppl and kill them in single burst because of how strong dps of a GS isAnd they cant simply use smaller values on a GS just cuz it is for thief. What kind of GS is it? A plastic? GS has some basic values around which it moves just like all weaponsAlso p/d style on GS is tbh quite stupid like if you hit an opponent with a GS you reposition urself (shadowstep lets say) away.Like what? You stroke him so hard you flew away xDNot that it wouldnt be fitting. Imagine hitting a war and flying away cuz the force you put into the hit wasnt enough to harm him and he reflected it back to you so you flew away like a Noodle xD

I said low dmg and focus on utility, spamming your Ini with utility weapon is not rewarding to thief nor is it dangerous to opponent which also regards your point about daze, we already got daze on headshot and you can't stunlock people with it let alone stunlock-burst.Also I said reposition or detarget, not shadowstep, meaning it could be simple flip behind enemy player model.I don't get why GS couldn't be low dmg, there is absolutely zero limitations to what can be designed (other than spaghetti code cough ), it is a game, all gs don't need to hit hard as **** they can be versatile.It's not like spamming ini was ever useful to thief, well maybe except S/D

[Jack Redline.5379]

@Alatar.7364 said:

It's not like spamming ini was ever useful to thief, well maybe except S/D

How can you tell it wont be for GS? And making a noodle GS is complete nonsense why would we even what Noodle GS that doesnt do enough dmg? What would it be good for? So ppl can have The new Lege on it and walk around look i have fancy noodle?Rev can get GS we should get something off hand liek i mentioned since GS will not do us any good

[Alatar.7364]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:

It's not like spamming ini was ever useful to thief, well maybe except S/D

How can you tell it wont be for GS? And making a noodle GS is complete nonsense why would we even what Noodle GS that doesnt do enough dmg? What would it be good for?

I said really multiple times by now that the GS would be focused on utility, stuff that gives outplay potential to compensate for lower dmg while also making entire spec more versatile.So to, again, answer your question "what would low dmg GS be good for? answer is For absolutely nothing because I never suggested anything like that, I suggested GS with low dmg compensate by focusing more on multiple utility effects in addition to dmg.

Also making a low dmg GS is not a nonsense, it's a game, fantasy game at that, the worse you can do in fantasy game is to waste its potential just because you misunderstand what the word 'fantasy' stands for. Unleash your imagination man, the same ideas and concepts can be done for all other weapons and I do not oppose those just cuz I like GS anyway.

[derd.6413]

that's not a good argument against GS thief.-a guy that doesn't think GS thief is a good idea

[Aetatis.5418]

@"Jack Redline.5379" said:

I will not use Mesmer and Reaper because in this case the AA is ranged which doesnt fall within Melee class perspective.

Reaper GS AA is ranged? smbdy forgot to implement/code the "ranged" then - but it would explain the 3/4s cast. (#salty)

however, i cant imagine a GS using thief - but this is maybe due to a lack of imagination. anet implemented some weapons "out of sight" already. nothing is impossible

[derd.6413]

@Aetatis.5418 said:

@"Jack Redline.5379" said:

I will not use Mesmer and Reaper because in this case the AA is ranged which doesnt fall within Melee class perspective.

Reaper GS AA is ranged? smbdy forgot to implement the "ranged" then - but it would explain the 3/4s cast. (#salty)

however, i cant imagine a GS using thief - but this is maybe due to a lack of imagination. anet implemented some weapons "out of sight" already. nothing is impossible

let's just say the way most forum goers want it implemented isn't a good idea

[Elric.4713]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:If anyone will get GS it will be Revenant. They can be Samurais = Heavy armor GS and they are blinking we all know that. Thief will get either Torch or Sword off hand. Since Anet cant allow us to get Stun locking Bursts of Hammer or a Mace. Axe is too strong for the ini as well. And Thief will not get Horn or Focus until a single sane person works in Anet. That would send all the normal Thieves away to other game publishers and Anet cant afford loosing customers like any normal company

GS would be trash for Revenant, also two heavy and light professions already have access to it and only one medium, so between Thief and Engineer I would bet on Thief.

[Jack Redline.5379]

@Alatar.7364 said:

Also making a low dmg GS is not a nonsense, it's a game, fantasy game at that, the worse you can do in fantasy game is to waste its potential just because you misunderstand what the word 'fantasy' stands for. Unleash your imagination man, the same ideas and concepts can be done for all other weapons and I do not oppose those just cuz I like GS anyway.

You re begining to sound more and more like a certain Vincent on these forums who also claims Fantasy can solve evertything you just need to have enogh ot it ( °-°) And sure i agree Fantasy is fine and all but it is a combat dude. You cant simply put so much fantasy in it. It has to make sense

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

Also making a low dmg GS is not a nonsense, it's a game, fantasy game at that, the worse you can do in fantasy game is to waste its potential just because you misunderstand what the word 'fantasy' stands for. Unleash your imagination man, the same ideas and concepts can be done for all other weapons and I do not oppose those just cuz I like GS anyway.

You re begining to sound more and more like a certain Vincent on these forums who also claims Fantasy can solve evertything you just need to have enogh ot it ( °-°) And sure i agree Fantasy is fine and all but it is a combat dude. You cant simply put so much fantasy in it. It has to make sense

Did you say my name?

One valid reason why Thief will not get GS is because the next Elite Spec must be Shadow Mage, dual-wielding wands. The end.

[Ghostt.1293]

i think gs can work on thief if you focus the use of it different and give it a different meaning in its roll as weapon

i hope it will be focus shooting shurikens with scorpion wire or jutsus

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Cyninja.2954 said:The reason why thief doesn't get access to great sword and might never get access to great sword is that it likely doesn't fit any kit or lore elements to work around.

I doubt that. My Assassin in GW1 can swing a 2-handed hammer or 2-handed scythe. So lore-wise, the Guild Wars professions are super heroes.

What doesn't fit the lore is how the ability of Tyrians digressed over the years -- losing the Monk profession and the inability to use any weapon, for instance.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

Also making a low dmg GS is not a nonsense, it's a game, fantasy game at that, the worse you can do in fantasy game is to waste its potential just because you misunderstand what the word 'fantasy' stands for. Unleash your imagination man, the same ideas and concepts can be done for all other weapons and I do not oppose those just cuz I like GS anyway.

You re begining to sound more and more like a certain Vincent on these forums who also claims Fantasy can solve evertything you just need to have enogh ot it ( °-°) And sure i agree Fantasy is fine and all but it is a combat dude. You cant simply put so much fantasy in it. It has to make sense

This has nothing to do with fantasy solving anything. It has to do with the fact that your analogy is not fitting. Nothing in this game ever suggested that great sword HAS to be hard hitting.

• There is no innate weapon speed which is a factor for damage calculations nor is there weapon speed difference between two handed and one handed weapons and skills. This is balanced on a weapon to weapon and skill to skill basis.
• There is no specific design which dictates damage on two handed weapons is higher than on single handed weapons.
• There is no design which says weapon type xyz does damage and weapon type abc is for healing (since this is wildly mixed and different between classes).
• There has been times when great sword was useless on almost all classes which use it for damage (great sword on warrior is still inferior to axe, great sword on mesmer was arguably useless for over 5 years except for range tagging, great sword on guardian was useless until the revamp, great sword on necromancer was bad until the revamp).

Simply put, your argument as to why great sword performs a certain way is completely arbitrary and only founded in the current coefficients which the weapon has been given on the classes at this point in time. Coefficients can be changed and were changed in the past to where they are now.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Here's one way to implement a GS for Thief.

Base weapon skills will be shurikens just like what @Ghostt.1293 suggested.Then whenever the Theif gains a stolen item, he uses that stolen item to empower the GS.Once the stolen item is used, all 5 weapon skills will flip to GS skills and give the Thief 5 special initiatives.Each GS weapon skill will cost 1 special inititive. Then the skill bar goes back to shurikens once all the special initiative were spent.The damage of the GS weapon skills will be balanced comparable to the damage output of DE at full M7 stacks.Different stolen skill will grant different effects to the GS skills.

This way, traits like Improv will be a good competition against Exec for damage output.

Just a thought.

[Jack Redline.5379]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Did you say my name?

One valid reason why Thief will not get GS is because the next Elite Spec must be Shadow Mage, dual-wielding wands. The end.

You already developed a telephatic ability to knowing when you are summoned...ImpressiveI have the same thing when you mention me. :P

[Alatar.7364]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Here's one way to implement a GS for Thief.

Base weapon skills will be shurikens just like what @Ghostt.1293 suggested.Then whenever the Theif gains a stolen item, he uses that stolen item to empower the GS.Once the stolen item is used, all 5 weapon skills will flip to GS skills and give the Thief 5 special initiatives.Each GS weapon skill will cost 1 special inititive. Then the skill bar goes back to shurikens once all the special initiative were spent.The damage of the GS weapon skills will be balanced comparable to the damage output of DE at full M7 stacks.Different stolen skill will grant different effects to the GS skills.

This way, traits like Improv will be a good competition against Exec for damage output.

Just a thought.

This would prevent the E-spec to function with other Weapons though, unless after using the stolen skills they'd flip to either their core weapon skills or special versions of them.

[Zacchary.6183]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:

Also making a low dmg GS is not a nonsense, it's a game, fantasy game at that, the worse you can do in fantasy game is to waste its potential just because you misunderstand what the word 'fantasy' stands for. Unleash your imagination man, the same ideas and concepts can be done for all other weapons and I do not oppose those just cuz I like GS anyway.

You re begining to sound more and more like a certain Vincent on these forums who also claims Fantasy can solve evertything you just need to have enogh ot it ( °-°) And sure i agree Fantasy is fine and all but it is a combat dude. You cant simply put so much fantasy in it. It has to make sense

Did you say my name?

One valid reason why Thief will not get GS is because the next Elite Spec must be Shadow Mage, dual-wielding wands. The end.

I highly disagree. Thief needs MOAR EDGE!!!! (and area denial)https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/12707/next-elite-idea-dark-knight-greatsword

[Sobx.1758]

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@"Alatar.7364" said:

Also making a low dmg GS is not a nonsense, it's a game, fantasy game at that, the worse you can do in fantasy game is to waste its potential just because you misunderstand what the word 'fantasy' stands for. Unleash your imagination man, the same ideas and concepts can be done for all other weapons and I do not oppose those just cuz I like GS anyway.

You re begining to sound more and more like a certain Vincent on these forums who also claims Fantasy can solve evertything you just need to have enogh ot it ( °-°) And sure i agree Fantasy is fine and all but it is a combat dude. You cant simply put so much fantasy in it. It has to make sense

Did you say my name?

One valid reason why Thief will not get GS is because the next Elite Spec must be Shadow Mage, dual-wielding wands. The end.

I highly disagree. Thief needs

MOAR EDGE!!!!

(and area denial)

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/12707/next-elite-idea-dark-knight-greatsword

...no, it doesn't. :confused: