How long have mounts been around before they were... Mounts?

[AzzyBelle.3791]

From my understanding, they were obviously introduced in Path of Fire, but did those creatures exist outside of that ever? Like lore wise.(Obviously not as mounts, just creatures you could have seen around in the world of Tyria.)(I guess an estimate of when where made known to the world, timeline wise would be even good.)

(And yes, I'm aware of the skyscale's history.)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Raptors, rollerbeetles, and griffons existed since GW1, though the raptors known previously were (mostly) feathered (pocket raptors in HoT were not, but they're also tiny, not even proper mount size for asura).

Skimmers and Springers are new to lore; the skimmer's lore being that they migrated in when Joko dammed the Elon from the east (Dzalana it would seem, which was inaccessible in GW1 but talked about), the springers lived in an area inaccessible and never talked about during GW1.

Jackals are constructs created by djinn in the aftermath of GW1's events, so they're not even 250 years old in existence. Similarly, skyscales came into birth during LWS4, in a manner similar to Razah, a hero NPC from Nightfall.

[AzzyBelle.3791]

I asked because I am working on a backstory for my sylvari character, and her being in her 20's, and traveling for a good chunk of her time she's been alive. (At least the last 10-15 years time line wise.) I wanted to know how viable it would be for her to have them from a younger age (I know sylvari are basically adults by age 1.)

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

For the default mounts, it depends on whether she had access to the Elona/desert region. Travel out there would be difficult but not impossible, and we know at least two of the Firstborn, Caithe and Aife, made it as far as the Crystal Desert before the start of GW2. That would at least be enough for the raptor, springer, and skimmer, and if she found a way past the Bone Wall, the jackal would be an option too. (The griffon, warclaw, skyscale, and probably roller beetle would've been unavailable for story reasons pre-PoF/S4.)

If you include the gemstore skins? That opens things up a bit. There are a few- the Auric Salamander, the Krytan Lop, the Southsun Torpedo, and so on- that are clearly suggested to have been native to core Tyria, despite, y'know, the fact we never see or hear about them in the maps.

[Cragga the Eighty Third.60]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:If you include the gemstore skins? That opens things up a bit. There are a few- the Auric Salamander, the Krytan Lop, the Southsun Torpedo, and so on- that are clearly suggested to have been native to core Tyria, despite, y'know, the fact we never see or hear about them in the maps.

Perhaps they became extinct in their original habitats, and only the domesticated versions carried off by mount-seeking Elonian travelers survived.

[Kalavier.1097]

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:For the default mounts, it depends on whether she had access to the Elona/desert region. Travel out there would be difficult but not impossible, and we know at least two of the Firstborn, Caithe and Aife, made it as far as the Crystal Desert before the start of GW2. That would at least be enough for the raptor, springer, and skimmer, and if she found a way past the Bone Wall, the jackal would be an option too. (The griffon, warclaw, skyscale, and probably roller beetle would've been unavailable for story reasons pre-PoF/S4.)

If you include the gemstore skins? That opens things up a bit. There are a few- the Auric Salamander, the Krytan Lop, the Southsun Torpedo, and so on- that are clearly suggested to have been native to core Tyria, despite, y'know, the fact we never see or hear about them in the maps.

Well, horses are native to Kryta as well and we don't see them ingame at all.

Some creatures are native to areas but not shown, is how I'd take it. Or that Krytan breeders got springers and ended up with a new breed.

One thing to remember is that pre-Path of fire, these creatures may not have been viewed as for mount-status. During the last Festival of the Four winds there is a charr asking a Zephryite why they never mentioned the various mount creatures, and the Zephryite replies with "We thought you already knew about them?"

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"AzzyBelle.3791" said:I asked because I am working on a backstory for my sylvari character, and her being in her 20's, and traveling for a good chunk of her time she's been alive. (At least the last 10-15 years time line wise.) I wanted to know how viable it would be for her to have them from a younger age (I know sylvari are basically adults by age 1.)

Well, by lore, Tyrians only had pack animals domesticated for burdens - and horses - as was lampshaded during last year's Festival of the Four Winds:

Local: Hey, how come you never told us about the ridable raptors in Elona?Zephyrite: We thought you already knew. I mean, it's no secret they're quite popular down there.Local: You also conveniently forgot to tell us about skimmers, springers, and jackals.Zephyrite: It's less that we forgot to tell you and more that we assumed you'd already been told.Local: Those would've all been very useful in Maguuma.Zephyrite: I know! So brave!

The most exotic mount in Central Tyria lands would be siege devourers (aka domesticated giant devourers made for riding). However, if the charr still utilizes them, it'd be outside Ascalon and in the Blood Legion lands, as the Iron Legion goes towards tanks while the Blood Legion are the ones who train devourers nowadays (and they do indeed train giant devourers).

That isn't to say that there couldn't be mounts native to Tyria such a sylvari could ride - horses, dolyaks, marmoxes, and siege devourers are all viable options - just not the PoF mounts unless they travel to the Crystal Desert and Elona.

Of course, that wouldn't really stop them from breaking an animal from youth themselves, or meeting someone who has.

And as Aaron says, most skins from the Distant Lands adoption license are meant to be cousins of the default mounts found in Central Tyria. But they weren't viewed as domesticatable animals for riding.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I'd also like to add: Those mounts being new to lore is very ambiguous. The only reference to it is at the Festival of the Four Winds. Since PoF dropped, a new player joining the game has always seen people using mounts, even in Heart of Maguuma, so mounts are likely a retcon, especially since there's a skin set in game that clearly shows players riding creatures form legacy areas (Timberline Badged, etc.).

Its just the player character who didn't have them. The Pact didn't need them (they had subs, tanks, copters and airships), and most of the people that you encounter in Central Tyria are just peasants in some form and wouldn't have been able to afford them anyways. Its stated at one point that they can't even afford to use waypoints or Asura gates, which are just mere silver, while mounts costed 20+ gold in Elona.

So to summarise, its only 100% known that the beetle and the Skyscale didn't exist, the rest seem retconned into lore by either limitations in the gameplay, or intentionally, (Just like Revenants ,which seem to have always existed, with Rytlock being the first Herald.)

Remember, the game is the de facto lore source, not any other materials, /things change/.

[Kalavier.1097]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:I'd also like to add: Those mounts being new to lore is very ambiguous. The only reference to it is at the Festival of the Four Winds. Since PoF dropped, a new player joining the game has always seen people using mounts, even in Heart of Maguuma, so mounts are likely a retcon, especially since there's a skin set in game that clearly shows players riding creatures form legacy areas (Timberline Badged, etc.).

Its just the player character who didn't have them. The Pact didn't need them (they had subs, tanks, copters and airships), and most of the people that you encounter in Central Tyria are just peasants in some form and wouldn't have been able to afford them anyways. Its stated at one point that they can't even afford to use waypoints or Asura gates, which are just mere silver, while mounts costed 20+ gold in Elona.

So to summarise, its only 100% known that the beetle and the Skyscale didn't exist, the rest seem retconned into lore by either limitations in the gameplay, or intentionally, (Just like Revenants ,which seem to have always existed, with Rytlock being the first Herald.)

Remember, the game is the de facto lore source, not any other materials, /things change/.

Asura gates are stated to not be cheap, it's just gameplay mechanics that we don't pay for using them. Waypoints also suffere from clear case of not only having to deal with fees, but they are apparently terrible for moving cargo (If they can at all).

I would not say it's a retcon to "They have skimmers, springers, and raptors all over and in use in central Tyria and related lands!" but probably, as somebody else said, more of a "wait, this beast is like those springers, we can use them for the same method of transportation with training!"

The roller beetle is explicitly like beetles we saw in Vabbi in GW1, and the roller beetle racing league popped up not too long after the commander got petey IIRC.

Revenants did not always exist. Rytlock is explicitly the first Revenant, not "The first herald elite spec". The fact you can have a revenant in personal story is a game limitation and anet not making the class require creating a level 80 character.

Raptors, springers, and skimmers seem more likely that it's either new breeds, or were previously undiscovered or even just thought of as general beasts instead of mounts, but that changed with interactions with Elona. This is supported by the zephyrite comments in the last festival of the four winds.

The festival comments include literal statements about how "These would've been useful in the Maguuma!" and wondering why they had never been mentioned. This makes it clear and obvious the mounts aren't being "retconned" into the rest of the world and historical uses. Remember, the maps are typically considered time-locked, and Anet has made comments about how certain events and meta's are explicitly "This happened once, period." and not repeating like gameplay shows.

You don't kill the one centaur war-chief hundreds of times in Harathi hinterlands, that happens a singular time. The marionette from S1 living story happened exactly one time, and was a win. Etc.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:I'd also like to add: Those mounts being new to lore is very ambiguous. The only reference to it is at the Festival of the Four Winds. Since PoF dropped, a new player joining the game has always seen people using mounts, even in Heart of Maguuma, so mounts are likely a retcon, especially since there's a skin set in game that clearly shows players riding creatures form legacy areas (Timberline Badged, etc.).

Its just the player character who didn't have them. The Pact didn't need them (they had subs, tanks, copters and airships), and most of the people that you encounter in Central Tyria are just peasants in some form and wouldn't have been able to afford them anyways. Its stated at one point that they can't even afford to use waypoints or Asura gates, which are just mere silver, while mounts costed 20+ gold in Elona.

So to summarise, its only 100% known that the beetle and the Skyscale didn't exist, the rest seem retconned into lore by either limitations in the gameplay, or intentionally, (Just like Revenants ,which seem to have always existed, with Rytlock being the first

Herald

.)

Remember, the game is the de facto lore source, not any other materials, /things change/.

Asura gates are stated to not be cheap, it's just gameplay mechanics that we don't pay for using them. Waypoints also suffere from clear case of not only having to deal with fees, but they are apparently terrible for moving cargo (If they can at all).

I would not say it's a retcon to "They have skimmers, springers, and raptors all over and in use in central Tyria and related lands!" but probably, as somebody else said, more of a "wait, this beast is like those springers, we can use them for the same method of transportation with training!"

The roller beetle is explicitly like beetles we saw in Vabbi in GW1, and the roller beetle racing league popped up not too long after the commander got petey IIRC.

Revenants did not always exist. Rytlock is explicitly the first Revenant, not "The first herald elite spec". The fact you can have a revenant in personal story is a game limitation and anet not making the class require creating a level 80 character.

Raptors, springers, and skimmers seem more likely that it's either new breeds, or were previously undiscovered or even just thought of as general beasts instead of mounts, but that changed with interactions with Elona. This is supported by the zephyrite comments in the last festival of the four winds.

The festival comments include literal statements about how "These would've been useful in the Maguuma!" and wondering why they had never been mentioned. This makes it clear and obvious the mounts aren't being "retconned" into the rest of the world and historical uses. Remember, the maps are typically considered time-locked, and Anet has made comments about how certain events and meta's are explicitly "This happened once, period." and not repeating like gameplay shows.

You don't kill the one centaur war-chief hundreds of times in Harathi hinterlands, that happens a singular time. The marionette from S1 living story happened exactly one time, and was a win. Etc.

You missed the entire point of my post, in that whatever is implemented in the game, and how the game presents itself, is canon. It trumps all other materials, that's just how video games that evolve over time work. And one-off lines in a festival are not proof to the contrary, they're more like tongue-in-cheek jokes that are to light-heartedly poke fun at the retrospect of the situation.

For example, take horses, we know they existed at one time, and maybe they still do, but even though they're a part of the lore, they're also not canon, and the developers have started treating it as just a running joke. Same for Gorillas (no non-Risen ones), etc.

Its important to understand the difference between irony and intention, and between lore and canon.

[Kalavier.1097]

@"Hannelore.8153" said:You missed the entire point of my post, in that whatever is implemented in the game, and how the game presents itself, is canon. It trumps all other materials, that's just how video games that evolve over time work. And one-off lines in a festival are not proof to the contrary, they're more like tongue-in-cheek jokes that are to light-heartedly poke fun at the retrospect of the situation.

For example, take horses, we know they existed at one time, and maybe they still do, but even though they're a part of the lore, they're also not canon, and the developers have started treating it as just a running joke. Same for Gorillas (no non-Risen ones), etc.

Its important to understand the difference between irony and intention, and between lore and canon.

There is a difference between "Not canon" and "primarily featured in secondary canon." Lore and Canon are part of the same thing. If it's canon, the lore is officially part of the universe. If it's not-canon, it is not considered to officially be part of the universe. An example is like saying "The federation in star trek has tanks." Yeah, in non-canon sources. But to the canon, the official lore of the universe, they don't.

If your statement is true that literally means Sea of Sorrow's, Edge of Destiny, Ghosts of Ascalon are "not canon" Which is blatantly untrue.

You are confusing "Not canon" with "secondary canon, and thus the game takes priority" Like how old star wars you had primary canon (the movies), and then the games, books, comics, etc was all secondary. If the movies said X, and a game said Y, the movie was considered to be the correct version. If the horses existed at one time, but are not canon, that means they never existed in the canon of GW. Which basically says that GW1 you know, mentioning horses directly in parts of the lore blurbs is not true.

Also in GW2 you can literally talk to a ghost during Halloween who describes her death... by a horse.

It's literally in the game that the events in Heart of Thorns are time-locked. They are, exactly as it was when the pact first fell into Verdant brink, and when they assaulted Mordremoth's lair.

There is no "retcon" of those areas. You see no npcs using mounts there (besides Mordrem guard).

Your explanation about the "pact not needing them" is discounted by the pact npcs actually using raptor mounts in Thunderhead peaks, and in dragonfall the entire parties going to set up camps are all riding raptors. Your comment about people being "unable to afford them" is disproven by the fact we deal with very wealthy individuals and thus it'd be ridiculous to act as if Anise or Faren can't afford a raptor or springer. Also, only the Jackal cost 20 gold. The springer cost 1 gold, and the skimmer 4 gold. So the common mounts aren't actually THAT expensive.

Horses exist and are canon. The mount creatures (springers, skimmers, raptors) if they were in central tyria were not considered for mount creatures until contact with Amnoon happened. There is zero evidence to suggest these facts are being retconned and infact, quite literally we have direct from the game statements that point out those three creatures were not used for mounts at all in the regions outside of Elona before path of fire.

Also the gorilla's have never been a running joke. It's just that they, as a species, were native to Orr and thus got wiped out when Orr was destroyed and sank. Thus we only see Risen ones because when Orr rose, Zhaitan brought up the native wildlife as risen monsters.

[mercury ranique.2170]

Mounts have been used for atleast 250 years and likely longer. A good example is during the prophecies campaign:

(warning, this contains a spoiler to the GW1 main story line). The mounts currently in use differ in age. As to be expected, it is hard to know where the wild animals once roamed and how they where simular to the current breeds used as mounts. A raptor in GW1 would be too small to ride. Roller Beetles where used for racing, but not when mounted (although the PC had control over his racer in some form).

It is perfectly possible that your character had the mounts 20 years before the current events. Nothing stops this, with the exception of the Roller beetle and the Skyskale. The rollerbeetle has been around, but not as a mount. The saddle was an invention by Blish.The Skyskale where created during the last episode.

[Kalavier.1097]

Yes there have been mounts, just not of the raptor, springer, or skimmer variants in central Tyria. Jackals didn't exist back then either. A person RPing having those in central since start of personal story or earlier would get a weird look from me. Unless they are saying they lived in Elona during those times and recently traveled up lol.

Back then you had Dolyaks and horses basically, with drake riders being extremely rare.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Hannelore.8153 said:even though they're a part of the lore, they're also not canon

That is a literal paradox. Something cannot be part of the lore and not canon, since what is in lore is what is canon.

[Fenom.9457]

What about the warclaw? I remember some of the lore, but how long have they existed for? If I recall correctly, they were new?

[Kalavier.1097]

@Fenom.9457 said:What about the warclaw? I remember some of the lore, but how long have they existed for? If I recall correctly, they were new?

Warclaw is a mystery. It's a spirit of a big cat bound to a suit of armor, whoever puts the armor together is the one the cat then aligns with. The priory found the armor itself features traces of several cultures and designs throughout Tyrian history, but the armor suits have only appeared in the battlefields within the mists, and recentlyish were discovered again.

[castlemanic.3198]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And as Aaron says, most skins from the Distant Lands adoption license are meant to be cousins of the default mounts found in Central Tyria. But they weren't viewed as domesticatable animals for riding.

Quick side question, are all the mount skins meant to be canon? I remember you at one point mentioning how the branded skins broke canon because dragons minions be dragon minions, but some of the other mountskin options seem weird, like the exalted mount skins, shrine guardian jackal, umbral demon skimmer, reforged warhound, outrider warclaw (the one without the armour everywhere) and a couple of other ones too seem i guess a bit beyond what i'd expect for canon. (For backpacks and gliders i'd guess that it would be far easier to create magical items that look and perhaps function like wings etc.)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And as Aaron says, most skins from the

Distant Lands adoption license

are meant to be cousins of the default mounts found in Central Tyria. But they weren't viewed as domesticatable animals for riding.

Quick side question, are all the mount skins meant to be canon? I remember you at one point mentioning how the branded skins broke canon because dragons minions be dragon minions, but some of the other mountskin options seem weird, like the exalted mount skins, shrine guardian jackal, umbral demon skimmer, reforged warhound, outrider warclaw (the one without the armour everywhere) and a couple of other ones too seem i guess a bit beyond what i'd expect for canon. (For backpacks and gliders i'd guess that it would be far easier to create magical items that look and perhaps function like wings etc.)

Of those you mentioned, the only one that seem questionable to canon besides the branded mount pack (which could only be domesticated if these branded mounts were cleansed via altar of glaust or similar methods) would be the shrine guardian jackal since it's clearly more Canthan than anything.

Demons and Forged would be hard to domesticate / work with, but not implausible. Exalted mounts could easily be domesticated animals who were put under the exalting rituals. The outrider warclaw just another version of the warclaw armors found in and formed by the Mists.

[castlemanic.3198]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Of those you mentioned, the only one that seem questionable to canon besides the branded mount pack (which could only be domesticated if these branded mounts were cleansed via altar of glaust or similar methods) would be the shrine guardian jackal since it's clearly more Canthan than anything.

Demons and Forged would be hard to domesticate / work with, but not implausible. Exalted mounts could easily be domesticated animals who were put under the exalting rituals. The outrider warclaw just another version of the warclaw armors found in and formed by the Mists.

Thanks for the answers! You actually just reminded me about how the zephyrites are supposed to be a mix of canthans and elonians, do you think they could have possibly brought the shrine guardians with them? Any other skins that seem suspect to you?

[Kalavier.1097]

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Of those you mentioned, the only one that seem questionable to canon besides the branded mount pack (which could only be domesticated if these branded mounts were cleansed via altar of glaust or similar methods) would be the shrine guardian jackal since it's clearly more Canthan than anything.

Demons and Forged would be hard to domesticate / work with, but not implausible. Exalted mounts could easily be domesticated animals who were put under the exalting rituals. The outrider warclaw just another version of the warclaw armors found in and formed by the Mists.

Thanks for the answers! You actually just reminded me about how the zephyrites are supposed to be a mix of canthans and elonians, do you think they could have possibly brought the shrine guardians with them? Any other skins that seem suspect to you?

TBH the only skins I can think of that are suspect are the branded skins. Everything else is plausible to various degrees. Obviously some would be much harder to obtain in-universe then others (Like the astral/fractalish skins), but they'd fit various regions of the world that we know of.

[Weindrasi.3805]

@"AzzyBelle.3791" said:I asked because I am working on a backstory for my sylvari character, and her being in her 20's, and traveling for a good chunk of her time she's been alive. (At least the last 10-15 years time line wise.) I wanted to know how viable it would be for her to have them from a younger age (I know sylvari are basically adults by age 1.)

Since there are wild raptors and griffons in main Tyria, I do not think it is lore-breaking to imagine a Ranger or nature-inclined person taming and riding one.Honestly, although we did not see riders in-game until PoF, there were probably plenty of Rangers riding around on big animals--Arenanet just didn't have the time or resources to depict something like that.Frankly, it's silly we don't see Rangers riding their Drake or Wyvren pets--they aren't gonna stay "Juvenile" for long, and we've seen how huge those suckers get.

[Kalavier.1097]

@Weindrasi.3805 said:

@"AzzyBelle.3791" said:I asked because I am working on a backstory for my sylvari character, and her being in her 20's, and traveling for a good chunk of her time she's been alive. (At least the last 10-15 years time line wise.) I wanted to know how viable it would be for her to have them from a younger age (I know sylvari are basically adults by age 1.)

Since there are wild raptors and griffons in main Tyria, I do not think it is lore-breaking to imagine a Ranger or nature-inclined person taming and riding one.Honestly, although we did not see riders in-game until PoF, there were probably plenty of Rangers riding around on big animals--Arenanet just didn't have the time or resources to depict something like that.Frankly, it's silly we don't see Rangers riding their Drake or Wyvren pets--they aren't gonna stay "Juvenile" for long, and we've seen how huge those suckers get.

I'd personally say it's fine to imply/say you had those creatures as a ranger companion (As there are so many animals we see being companions for say, ogres or other creatures, or are same creature type but a species we can't get, like the flame cat in desert or the armored behemoth bear), but hold back on riding them until more recently.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Weindrasi.3805 said:

@"AzzyBelle.3791" said:I asked because I am working on a backstory for my sylvari character, and her being in her 20's, and traveling for a good chunk of her time she's been alive. (At least the last 10-15 years time line wise.) I wanted to know how viable it would be for her to have them from a younger age (I know sylvari are basically adults by age 1.)

Since there are wild raptors and griffons in main Tyria, I do not think it is lore-breaking to imagine a Ranger or nature-inclined person taming and riding one.Honestly, although we did not see riders in-game until PoF, there were probably plenty of Rangers riding around on big animals--Arenanet just didn't have the time or resources to depict something like that.Frankly, it's silly we don't see Rangers riding their Drake or Wyvren pets--they aren't gonna stay "Juvenile" for long, and we've seen how huge those suckers get.

The main issue there, if you're going with the strict reading of the lore, is that Central Tyrian raptors/griffons are much smaller species. I can't see a jungle or eagle raptor supporting much more than a smallish asura, and an eagle griffon might be hard pressed getting off the ground even with a human or sylvari on its back.