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"We are planning to release raids with more regularity this season." - ANet Jason


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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:To me, it seems that the participation rates do indeed differ significantly between HoT and PoF wings, and that the difference is so big they want to push players from old wings to the new ones. Even if it's going to cost them some unreparable damage on the PR side.

Yes that's true. But it also means that those raiding bought both POF and HOT to cause such a reaction, which is an interesting bit in and on itself.Those that hadn't bought PoF are not an issue here, because they never had the exchange option in the first place. Only people that did at least one w5 kill before w6 was made qualified for it (and you needed PoF or that). Those that never bought HoT were never an issue either, because they couldn't be doing old wings in preference to new ones anyway (not that there's a lot of active people with Pof but without HoT in raiding, especially considering the meta class/espec requirements).Besides, i'm pretty sure that most of the still active players, regardless of the mode and preferred content, have all expacs.

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@SkyShroud.2865 said:That don't make sense either. Between W5 and W6, the first boss only has 1% or so disparity completion.Elsewhere, Ep1 and Ep5 has big disparity, even if you convert it to proportion, even if you use the full story completion as value of comparison.You simply can't have any logical link with participation rate.

Also, I also compare on the context of difficulty such that higher difficulty lead to lesser participation rate. This much is shown on W2 and W4 and likewise, within the wing itself on different bosses. Therefore, using the drop between W4 and W5 as example that difficulty deter players, has little impact from the open world. Sure, open world does has impact since it attract people to the game but not on the level that is described towards raid.

You're still missing the point. The correlation isn't between people playing raids and people playing LS; it's the length of time those players have had to complete them.

Participation goes up over time, as show in various posts (including one above). Whatever the participation is for Wing X or LS#y.z today, it's going to be greater (on GW2/E) in 3 months.So it's not an apples:apples comparison to look today at Wing 4 vs 5 or to look at LS4.2 vs 4.3, because the earliest to launch have had more time in game.In short: GW2/Efficiency has no way of answering the question: is raid participation declining?

Instead, we look at comparables to answer a different question: is raid participation declining relative to participation in PvE?And the answer is: no, it's not. The ratio of participation in raids, despite the varying difficulty, is roughly the same when compared to the LS episode that launched at the same time.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:To me, it seems that the participation rates do indeed differ significantly between HoT and PoF wings, and that the difference is so big they want to push players from old wings to the new ones. Even if it's going to cost them some unreparable damage on the PR side.

Yes that's true. But it also means that those raiding bought both POF and HOT to cause such a reaction, which is an interesting bit in and on itself.Those that hadn't bought PoF are not an issue here, because they never had the exchange option in the first place. Only people that did at least one w5 kill before w6 was made qualified for it (and you needed PoF or that). Those that never bought HoT were never an issue either, because they couldn't be doing old wings in preference to new ones anyway (not that there's a lot of active people with Pof but without HoT in raiding, especially considering the meta class/espec requirements).Besides, i'm pretty sure that most of the still active players, regardless of the mode and preferred content, have all expacs.

No the offer was not ended after wing 6 shipped if you read further in the thread it would grant it when you made your first w5 kill even after w6 arrivedEdithttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/54756/a-note-about-future-raid-rewards/p1

Byron Miller.4629Byron Miller.4629 ArenaNet › September 12, 2018@Mireles Lore.5942 said:Is the participation requirement needed before the patch drops or is that unlimited time frame as well?

Participation is not limited. You can earn access to the exchange after the patch as well.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"SkyShroud.2865" said:What suggest is that there are actually more people (in proportion to overall pop) doing W6 than W5 despite the decline in population.

Daybreak: 47%W5: First boss: 10%, last boss: 7%21% of those that completed the story killed the first boss, 15% killed the last boss.

A Star to Guide Us: 35%W6: First boss: 8.5%, last boss: 5%24% of those that completed the story killed the first boss, 14% killed the last boss.

Relative speaking, W5 and W6 have the same amount of players that completed them. Of course, overall there are more W5 completions than W6 completions, but the one point I was trying to make absolutely clear is that the overall population of the game doesn't really matter in these types of calculations. The episode completion rate was used to compare Raids with -something- because we were getting comments about Raids being dead, declining in population and Arenanet shifting their focus away of Raids due to that.

Conclusion is very similar, it took us a bit long to reach it lol. Peace out

Your whole discussion is pointless, you know that, right?

I finished all living stories, once, for unlocking everything. Did I enjoy it? Fuck no. I hate it. Every living story update makes me want to shoot myself because Im more or less forced into content I detest to unlock things.So saying "living story is well received/populated/liked" just due to how many finished an achievement on it... ridiculous, sorry.You cant compare participation in mandatory content with voluntary content.

And the drop in raid participation btw, was due to legendary armor getting released. It was promised from the start, took 2 years to develope, and has failed dye channels. Guess what, that kinda killed the semi-mandatory part of raids. Either players were done already and stopped. Or they saw the armor and lost interest.Legendary ring was supposed to be something similar, and I mean... develop time was long enough for it. But w5 is a horrible wing for "bad" players, since it has RNG queen desmina and RNG king orb mechanic.When w6 released, most not-so-interested players already had given up.

My data? Training guilds, several statics and twitch chitchat.

If you want "real data" btw, then you will have to make a questionnaire, asking for percentage time spend on content, liking of said content, etc. And then get as much gw2 players as possible to answer it. Not just forum and reddit heroes, but also people ingame.

But guess why anet doesnt do that. Because they like what their skewed statistics show them. Hence why gw2 is dieing a slow and painful-to-watch death.

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@Linken.6345 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:To me, it seems that the participation rates do indeed differ significantly between HoT and PoF wings, and that the difference is so big they want to push players from old wings to the new ones. Even if it's going to cost them some unreparable damage on the PR side.

Yes that's true. But it also means that those raiding bought both POF and HOT to cause such a reaction, which is an interesting bit in and on itself.Those that hadn't bought PoF are not an issue here, because they never had the exchange option in the first place. Only people that did at least one w5 kill before w6 was made qualified for it (and you needed PoF or that). Those that never bought HoT were never an issue either, because they couldn't be doing old wings in preference to new ones anyway (not that there's a lot of active people with Pof but without HoT in raiding, especially considering the meta class/espec requirements).Besides, i'm pretty sure that most of the still active players, regardless of the mode and preferred content, have all expacs.

No the offer was not ended after wing 6 shipped if you read further in the thread it would grant it when you made your first w5 kill even after w6 arrivedEdit

Byron Miller.4629Byron Miller.4629 ArenaNet › September 12, 2018@Mireles Lore.5942 said:Is the participation requirement needed before the patch drops or is that unlimited time frame as well?

Participation is not limited. You can earn access to the exchange after the patch as well.That part got corrected right after w6 went in and the exchange actually appeared, from what i remember. I am pretty sure that people that killed their first w5 boss right after the patch
didn't
get the exchange option.
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@"Yasi.9065" said:So saying "living story is well received/populated/liked" just due to how many finished an achievement on it... ridiculous, sorry.

I never said that living story is well received or anything like that (that's personal opinion). I was comparing the reduction in living story content completion with the reduction of raid content completion. If you didn't get that by that post you quoted, the living world completion did drop way more than Raid completion. That was the reason I was presenting the data to begin with, show those that say Raids are dying and nobody plays them is a silly argument, because compared to other content, Raids aren't dying. They are mostly stable.

Of course that doesn't tell us anything about actual participation. We don't have any data to support that, we use the data we can to get -at least- some kind of results (obviously biased) but it's better than nothing, and over the months/years it does show some very interesting trends.

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@"Yasi.9065" said:So saying "living story is well received/populated/liked" just due to how many finished an achievement on it... ridiculous, sorry.No one is saying it was "well received" or "liked." And yes, we can absolutely state it was "populated," because we're not concerned with measuring enjoyment; we're looking at how many people completed it. The reasons for completion are irrelevant to the discussion.

You cant compare participation in mandatory content with voluntary content.First, LS isn't mandatory. More importantly, all gameplay unlocks (maps and other content) are made available before completing the story. Some notable exceptions are wardrobe unlocks, AP, and the Skyscale (the Rollerbeetle unlocks before the end of the relevant LS episode).

Second, the number of people playing any game drops over time; the only question is: how quickly. Games age, fans get older, RL interfere, and shinier new games appear. The relevant question isn't whether there are dropping numbers. The question is whether this game mode or that game mode is sinking more quickly.

And the drop in raid participation btw, was due to legendary armor getting released. It was promised from the start, took 2 years to develope, and has failed dye channels. Guess what, that kinda killed the semi-mandatory part of raids. Either players were done already and stopped. Or they saw the armor and lost interest.It's a mistake to assume that everyone has the same motivations. Some play for the challenge, some for the group aspects, and many for the shinies.

My data? Training guilds, several statics and twitch chitchat.That's not "data;" that's anecdote. Anecdotes are extremely useful in helping to understand data; they are illustrative, though, not conclusive.

If you want "real data" btw, then you will have to make a questionnaire, asking for percentage time spend on content, liking of said content, etc. And then get as much gw2 players as possible to answer it. Not just forum and reddit heroes, but also people ingame.If you want to know why people do what they do, then sure, a questionnaire is a useful tool.

This conversation hasn't been about why; it's been about how many, which doesn't require a survey. We have a considerable body of data, even though it covers only a non-random sample. That should put us in the right ballpark.

But guess why anet doesnt do that. Because they like what their skewed statistics show them.They have the raw data on how many people raid, how often, and which bosses/wings. They have comparable data for LS, open world, and WvW. How is that skewed?

Hence why gw2 is dieing a slow and painful-to-watch death.All the evidence we have is that GW2 is thriving, not dying. Like any game that is 7 years old, there are fewer active players. And yet ANet's making enough money that they can plan for storylines 2+ years away. There are tons of people at events, enough people are coming back to the game to have backlogged the Support team.

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:All the evidence we have is that GW2 is thriving, not dying. Like any game that is 7 years old, there are fewer active players.Actually, FF XIV just announced that their subscription levels now are the highest ever, so no, it's not like any game.

And yet ANet's making enough money that they can plan for storylines 2+ years away.Can they? They could 2 years ago, but is it still the same now?

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@Astralporing.1957 said:Actually, FF XIV just announced that their subscription levels now are the highest ever, so no, it's not like any game.

ESO is also going up according to steam charts. Interestingly enough, ESO is doing much better than FF XIV on Steam (Steam counts concurrent players btw, it's different than actual accounts).

Maybe the reason those other mmorpgs are having increasing numbers is because they released expansions recently? GW2 numbers also went up (as seen by their revenue results) when an expansion was released.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Actually, FF XIV just announced that their subscription levels now are the highest ever, so no, it's not like
any
game.

ESO is also going up according to steam charts. Interestingly enough, ESO is doing much better than FF XIV on Steam (Steam counts concurrent players btw, it's different than actual accounts).

Maybe the reason those other mmorpgs are having increasing numbers is because they released expansions recently? GW2 numbers also went up (as seen by their revenue results) when an expansion was released.I don't know about ESO, but in FFXIV it is of course tied to the expansion that will launch in 2 weeks, but at the same it isn't - because the numbers are higher than with the previous two expansion launches. It's not that they are going up right now. It's that their subscription levels are the highest since the game launched.Althoug it's probably partially thanks to WoW and its BfA expansion...

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:All the evidence we have is that GW2 is thriving, not dying. Like any game that is 7 years old, there are fewer active players.Actually, FF XIV just announced that their subscription levels now are the highest ever, so no, it's not like
any
game.

And yet ANet's making enough money that they can plan for storylines 2+ years away.Can they? They could 2 years ago, but is it still the same now?

Also Eso announced recently increased number of players. Yes eso is newer but ESo was infamous for its bad launch. For the last 2 or so years Gw2 is the only big mmo that hasnt shown any sign of growth.

Aside from expansions both these games had an overall positive last year or 2 with lots of content updates and consistency.

The later i feel like gw2 hasnt really managed at all last year and a half.

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