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What's accetable for burst


Solori.6025

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Point of the poll is to determine what people find acceptable for burst. Is it ok for a class do have burst? Is it only ok for certain classes to burst?Are potatoes an acceptable vegetable to binge on?Find out more in todays episode of Forum PVP

Edit: Oh goodie it works :D

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time to kill should be relative to effort, but even if you use a 5 second pre set up, its not ok to 100-0 someone with 5+ abilities or simple auto attacks/ one hit kills. at most something like 66% hp is where I would draw the line for any one hit burst or 5+ skills burst. auto attacks shouldn't do more then 10% of someones hp. quickness imo needs a damage loss component, or at the very least limit the duration of quickness.

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As burst is simply doing relatively high dps over a short time span the only way to remove it would be to completely homogenize all damage skills so that everyone is basically staff druid spamming auto attacks at each other. That would be about the dumbest thing anet could possibly do. Personally I think using number of skills in a combo as a metric to whether a burst should be allowed to hit for a certain amount of damage is kind of dumb as it completely fails to take into account how some skills are much easier to land and some are much harder to avoid than others. For instance I have no issues with full channel hundred blades being able to 100-0 people with 1 button press since it is so easy to avoid without proper setup from a long duration cc.

On the opposite end of the spectrum you have stuff like fresh air ele and mantra mesmer which focus around hitting as many instant cast damage skills as possible at the same time. While the combo may take 5+ skills it has a severe lack of telegraphs which results in much less back and forth, less play and counterplay, makes fights feel largely luck based, and dumbed down to kill them before they kill you. Stealth bursts and instant no los port combos also more or less fit into this category since they both allow otherwise we'll telegraphed and appropriately hard hitting skills to no longer have an actual telegraph. These are the bursts that I don't think should really exist in their current form.

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While it should be (a little) predictable, I don't care about the amount of burst. I also don't care how many skills are used.

However, if a burst is missed, it must be possible to make them pay. No burst from 1200 away, no instant stealth or several evade covers or lots of stability or... stuff. That's just cheap.

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@Megametzler.5729 said:While it should be (a little) predictable, I don't care about the amount of burst. I also don't care how many skills are used.

However, if a burst is missed, it must be possible to make them pay. No burst from 1200 away, no instant stealth or several evade covers or lots of stability or... stuff. That's just cheap.

....maybe pvp should be limited to core war at limited burst potential

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:While it should be (a little) predictable, I don't care about the amount of burst. I also don't care how many skills are used.

However, if a burst is missed, it must be possible to make them pay. No burst from 1200 away, no instant stealth or several evade covers or lots of stability or... stuff. That's just cheap.

....maybe pvp should be limited to core war at limited burst potential

Core in general was a lot better, HoT was already going in a difficult direction. Now there are several offenders to this golden rule (not speaking about general powercreep here, just means of how to apply burst).

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Your poll has mis-identified the problem.

The issue is not "how much burst is too much burst", or "how difficult should it be to burst".

The issue is that burst should be inversely proportional to survivability. It's fine for a build to be able to do 100-0 in half a second, as long as, if you miss the burst, then the opponent should be able to easily punish you.

For example, FA Sceptre Ele or Berserker Rifle/Greatsword, are absolutely fine as burst builds, because while they can 100-0 you in under a second, if they miss they are pretty much helpless.

Whereas, builds like Sic'Em SB, GS mesmer, Deadeye rifle, Power shiro/herald, regardless of how effective/meta they actually are, people will always hate them, because on top of being able to 100-0 in under a second, even if you negate their burst, they have plenty of tools to disengage/resustain and come try again 20 seconds later.

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This is a multifactorial problem.

Some variables:How many skills are used?How long does it take to use those skills?Is the class able to follow up with any damage afterwords and how much?How high is the burst damage (obviously) AND against what type of opponent (tanky vs berserker)?How much defense does the class have?How much sustain does the class have?How hard is the combo and timing to pull of properly?How much counter play is there to the burst?How much support is the class able to give to teammates?How good is the class at maintaining point control?

Obviously this can't be fully decided by a single poll like this.My thoughts: Instant one shot is obviously completely absurd.However, if a combo is difficult to pull off, there is time for the opponent to react (aka you won't die if you react in time), the class doesn't have super high sustain to go with it, and the class isn't super defensive, then I don't see a problem with it. Even if it is from stealth, if it is not instant, then there is still time to react.

However, how much time is deemed appropriat enough time to react is a different problem that no one here is going to agree with.A pro might say one answer and a novice may say another.Additionally, how much time an opponent has to react to class or build A shouldn't be the same amount of time they have to react to class or build B.Why? Because the amount of defense and sustain those classes share aren't going to be the same. It is not a direct comparison.Besides a baseline reaction time (counter-play), what matters more is the overall picture of how effective a class is in PvP.

SUMMARY:Weather or not counter-play is possible is what is the most important.After that, it is how overall effective the build is in PvP.

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Burst is okay, feels good to gank people and good to avoid bursts, like haha pleb ofc i saw that coming. But really some bursts are hard to see. I only recently learned one of the tells for zerker which is the signet activating but other than that either you find out a player is using a bursty spec through dying instantly, or being lucky enough to dodge the first burst. Maybe someone wants to post a thread on how to predict bursts would be helpful imo.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:I'm of the opinion that no matter what, on the fastest scale of things the quickest a player should be getting rushed down by a single extremely offensive and bursty enemy is 5 seconds minimum.

Is this standing still and not doing anything or is this with the usage of evades etc? 5 seconds to kill someones as a dps class when they're afk is absurd. We don't need bunker meta again

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Can we add "Requires Line of sight" to the list?

I don't think there is a problem with stealth bursts in general. The likes of Ranger, Mesmers, and Engies the duration is short enough that you can reasonably anticipate when the burst is going to land, or reliably play around the stealth so it's wasted.(Hunter's shot 3 seconds for 12 sec c/d is kinda bs, but whatever)

Even Thief I think is fine, the only problematic design I find particularly more so with Deadeye, is that the burst is not easily punished enough, escape is almost free unless you land a one shot combo yourself on something with the most dodges in game. Optimally this is kind of perpetual until the thief makes a massive mistake. Although for conquest I find this less of a big deal, if you face this 1v1 on point you get the point so long as they keep whiffing.

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Thief purpose is basically the fast surprise burst :D , i mastered the skill of surprise, and tbh i rarely get surprised by other thieves no matter on what class i play, i can hear when a mesmer/thief comes, i can see it, also i continuously moving the camera and looking for them if i dont see them on the mini map, so yeah on this 2 class high burst from stealth is totally acceptable however on other classes high burst from stealth is totally unacceptable in my opinion for example, holo and soulbeast suprise bu**ex is totally wth

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@Snellibee.2761 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:I'm of the opinion that no matter what, on the fastest scale of things the quickest a player should be getting rushed down by a single extremely offensive and bursty enemy is 5 seconds minimum.

Is this standing still and not doing anything or is this with the usage of evades etc? 5 seconds to kill someones as a dps class when they're afk is absurd. We don't need bunker meta again

5 seconds is basically five skills that aren't instant cast. Five skill combo chained together is not that much.

On the other end of the spectrum think it should be nearly impossible without just straight up fleeing for a single fight to last more than one minute straight.

The shortest end of the spectrum should take longer. And every fight needs to have some amount of inevitability to it so that it ends in a reasonable time frame.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:I'm of the opinion that no matter what, on the fastest scale of things the quickest a player should be getting rushed down by a single extremely offensive and bursty enemy is 5 seconds minimum.

Is this standing still and not doing anything or is this with the usage of evades etc? 5 seconds to kill someones as a dps class when they're afk is absurd. We don't need bunker meta again

5 seconds is basically five skills that aren't instant cast. Five skill combo chained together is not that much.

On the other end of the spectrum think it should be nearly impossible without just straight up fleeing for a single fight to last more than one minute straight.

The shortest end of the spectrum should take longer. And every fight needs to have some amount of inevitability to it so that it ends in a reasonable time frame.

I agree... also you dont need to open with burst. You can slow burn someone with autoattacks and random skills and then burst when its appropriate.the burst shouldnt be the 100-0 option.

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I don't care about how many skills are used to set up burst. The only things I care about are:

  • If the burst is high damage, it should be telegraphed.
  • if an attack is not telegraphed or the telegraph can be completely hidden, it should do less damage.
  • If a burst requires a player to put themselves in a precarious position where they can be killed as they are bursting (large channel time, close proximity to player), the burst should do high damage if it hits.
  • If the burst can be executed from a safe distance away (1200 - 1500r) It should do less damage.
  • if the burst can be executed repeatedly in a short time span (<15 seconds) it should do less damage. If it takes time to ramp up, it should do more.

basically, high risk, high reward. low risk, low reward. I don't even care about oneshots if there is clear, highly visible information that signifies it is about to happen. That's why I was so on board with deadeye originally.

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