Mirage Grandmaster Traits

[Delofasht.4231]

Curious what other think of the options...

The minor GM trait seems odd in that it feels like it could be baked directly into Mirage Cloak itself.Infinite Horizon becoming the minor would make the remaining traits much more interesting for builds (without massively increasing the damage or utility of builds).Elusive Mind having the exhaustion for such a long period feels extremely lackluster and simply gives up too much damage in general.Dune Cloak is nearly exclusively for condition damage builds, but for all the usual builds seems to be a less good option than Infinite Horizon (which is why making it minor would be such a good choice).

Moving and adjusting Mirage Cloak and making Infinite Horizon the minor would free up a slot though, so perhaps making a power option for a grandmaster major would work. I suggest one that interacts with shattering mirrors to increase the damage of your next non basic attack ability, so that using the mirror creating utilities and Desert Distortion together for a bunch of mirrors means doing a bit more damage with direct damage. Such an ability could be called Through the Looking Glass and also affect the damage of each of your clones when activated as well, this makes interactions between the player and usage of their clones a bit more interesting. This also decouples the damage of Mirage from condition damage a little and opens up the gameplay (which being telegraphed a bit and somewhat able to be counter played in PvP or WvW scenarios).

Basically, while the damage for condition damage users is present and strong, for power it is a bit lacking. Increasing the damage and making it require skill to use and play around would open up a lot of play potential.

Does anyone else have thoughts on adding or rearranging some traits?

[praqtos.9035]

Without IH mirage cant work. Simple as that. Other grandmaster traits are terrible/bad to begin with.

Does anyone else have thoughts on adding or rearranging some traits?It was suggested by the players to make IH a default minor trait merged with 1 of the current ones and adjust ambush damage if needed.

[Curunen.8729]

Yes.

• Merge Speed of Sand with baseline Mirage Cloak.
• Move IH to Grandmaster Minor, rebalance all ambushes where necessary.
• Make new Grandmaster Major and redesign Elusive Mind.

[yusayu.3629]

I also don't like how objectively necessary IH is, and feel like it should be part of the baseline Mirage (i.e. one of the Minor Traits). This would require some major rebalancing, especially for PvP, though.

What if the replacement had something to do with interrupts, or gave Mirage some decent condi cleanse?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Not going to happen, this was suggested a ton of times including beta feedback, it was ignored all the way.

[Solori.6025]

@Curunen.8729 said:Yes.

• Merge Speed of Sand with baseline Mirage Cloak.
• Move IH to Grandmaster Minor, rebalance all ambushes where necessary.
• Make new Grandmaster Major and redesign Elusive Mind.

^ This..But you are asking Anet to be smart and do some work. So it will never ever happen

[otto.5684]

@praqtos.9035 said:Without IH mirage cant work. Simple as that. Other grandmaster traits are terrible/bad to begin with.

Does anyone else have thoughts on adding or rearranging some traits?It was suggested by the players to make IH a default minor trait merged with 1 of the current ones and adjust ambush damage if needed.

I think this is a really good idea. IH is an absolute must. It makes sense to make it base line

[Noodle Ant.1605]

@Delofasht.4231 said:Dune Cloak is nearly exclusively for condition damage builds, but for all the usual builds seems to be a less good option than Infinite Horizon (which is why making it minor would be such a good choice).Might be IMO and irrelevant but Dune Cloak I think provides PvE power mirage the highest dps out of the other choices - paired with Desert Distortion (because all the other master traits are similarly useless), Distortion amusingly becomes a dmg skill since you can shatter 3 separate mirrors (which deals fair power dmg btw) and proc dune cloak 3 times. A Dune Cloak build would likely focus on mirage mirror mechanics, except that mechanic I feel anet has decided not to expand on that much.Besides, I think power mirage is on par with core mes (~26k) but it’s unnecessarily more confusing to play :sunglasses:, so maybe it could be addressed if such changes are made.

[Sodeni.6041]

Dune Cloak is a leftover when PoF came out and Mesmer's phantasms counted as clones and were shatter-able. Dune Cloak was the option to go for when you had 3 pistol clones out (which would stay up all the time) and you didn't want to get another clone out so you would do additional condi damage yourself with dune cloak.

Ever since the phantasm/clone changes Dune Cloak is pretty much useless and infinite horizon is better in every condition build. Thus, Dune Cloak should be completely reworked, maybe into a power focus trait or enhanced mirrors.

[Delofasht.4231]

@yusayu.3629 said:I also don't like how objectively necessary IH is, and feel like it should be part of the baseline Mirage (i.e. one of the Minor Traits). This would require some major rebalancing, especially for PvP, though.

What if the replacement had something to do with interrupts, or gave Mirage some decent condi cleanse?

Some mention that IH has been suggested several times already to become a minor, which probably does mean too much work for them to adjust so much. Second option is to add some strength to the other options, which means buffs, condition cleanse could be further improved on Elusive Mind, or they could make it reduce the cooldowns of deceptions when using EM (that would make it viable and good, even with the exhaustion). Dune Cloak could straight benefit from some slight added strength... something slightly defensive, like reducing the CD on distortion by a second with each Mirage Cloak gain (should result in reducing the cooldown by maybe 10 seconds maximum)

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@Delofasht.4231 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:I also don't like how objectively necessary IH is, and feel like it should be part of the baseline Mirage (i.e. one of the Minor Traits). This would require some major rebalancing, especially for PvP, though.

What if the replacement had something to do with interrupts, or gave Mirage some decent condi cleanse?

Some mention that IH has been suggested several times already to become a minor, which probably does mean too much work for them to adjust so much. Second option is to add some strength to the other options, which means buffs, condition cleanse could be further improved on Elusive Mind, or they could make it reduce the cooldowns of deceptions when using EM (that would make it viable and good, even with the exhaustion). Dune Cloak could straight benefit from some slight added strength... something slightly defensive, like reducing the CD on distortion by a second with each Mirage Cloak gain (should result in reducing the cooldown by maybe 10 seconds maximum)

This, apart from your dune cloak idea, was also suggested numerous times. ANet doesn't give a kitten which I would agree if they also didn't gave one for nerfs, but they cave in to every nerf mesmer cry.

What this game needs is a strong head on balance, a guy that doesn't give a sht to cries and does what he thinks it's the best for the game. Luckily a guy like that is already on gw2 team, it's Izzy...... And get the biased devs into some other role, looking specifically at the engie one.

[lordorinko.6978]

Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

[Delofasht.4231]

@yusayu.3629 said:I also don't like how objectively necessary IH is, and feel like it should be part of the baseline Mirage (i.e. one of the Minor Traits). This would require some major rebalancing, especially for PvP, though.

What if the replacement had something to do with interrupts, or gave Mirage some decent condi cleanse?

Interrupt interactions would play well with other Mesmer lines quite well actually. I do agree that condition cleanse tends to be pretty lacking for Mesmer overall and especially so for Mirage, while we have options, often they feel like weaker versions of other professions cleanse.

On a different note, Infinite Horizon may not be as necessary as we think, but due to that insane versatility of the trait, play often feels much worse not having it. Without it, durability of clones for PvE is diminished, which may mean less to many builds, but quite important if one isn’t running Deceptive Evasion.

I believe the assessment we have regarding the GM traits are not wrong overall though, IH feels fitting to the profession and is almost omnipresent. Elusive Mind and Dune Cloak feel weaker or are far more niche and thus end up picked very rarely, if at all, simply due to not being versatile enough.

Alright, more ways to adjust things: Dune Cloak could drop enemy targeting on the Mesmer, this would introduce some versatility to the trait and be useful in PvE and PvP situations; Elusive Mind could provide longer Super Speed and remove movement impairment effects in addition to cleansing one single damaging condition. Both very minor buffs that do not directly increase the damage of the profession overall.

Could have all the ideas in the world here though, but unless an ANet dev is reading this then it probably will not matter, and even if they do the track record for changes that needed to happen (like the phantasm one) tend to take place many years after they are proposed. I gave that suggestion back before Scarlet’s War because it was easy to see how dropping triple phantasm and just using everything to stay alive while they destroyed the enemy was a thing (used to have one hell of an agressive bunker build with triple defender, lol). It only took... like 4 years before they implemented the change to phantasms, which still have a lot of restrictions on getting them into play. Realistically, we should not hope for much I suppose, but without giving them ideas we cannot expect they will come up with them.

[Delofasht.4231]

@lordorinko.6978 said:Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

Mesmer lacks condi cleanse heavily, unless giving up their damage with Inspiration trait line, making them not do one shot burst damage anymore. In order to do one shot burst damage, Mesmer need to use up 2 of their utility skills, be running Greatsword, the target to not have a passive block or damage reduction, and be running a specific build. Go watch the Shorts video on how it works, easy to avoid the damage, and once avoided it takes 15 to 20 seconds to line it up again while avoiding being one shot themselves. Target disruption is a non issue, use target previous target keybind when they drop target and continue on. Rather than say l2p like most people, I am willing to actually give you the quick breakdown of how to beat the thing you are struggling against, at least half the time (one shot builds tend to be 50/50 match ups regardless of skill).

That said, if the question is, “Should big burst or CC be telegraphed in a game like this?” Yes, I believe CC should be telegraphed and have a travel time so it can be avoided, likewise, large bursts should be telegraphed for a bit longer prior to landing. Now, please try not to derail the thread. Do you have any input on the grandmaster traits and how they could be enhanced so that one single trait is not omnipresent in all game modes?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

So much misinformation...One shot power shatter only has burst, has no sustain, no sustain damage, no stunbreaks(blink is used to on burst) , no condi cleanse, no disengage (blink is used on burst), 1 target break which is stealth and used to engage( torch 4), one of the lowest vigor uptime on game.It is by far one of the easiest professions to kill. Dodge mirror blade and you've won.

[flog.3485]

Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:-Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage-Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage-elusive mind for a bit more sustain

The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

[yusayu.3629]

@"lordorinko.6978" said:Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

@"flog.3485" said:Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:-Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage-Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage-elusive mind for a bit more sustain

The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

[flog.3485]

@yusayu.3629 said:

@"lordorinko.6978" said:Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

@"flog.3485" said:Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:-Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage-Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage-elusive mind for a bit more sustain

The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:-the free dodges when CC’ed-the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

[ZeteCommander.4937]

@flog.3485 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:

@"lordorinko.6978" said:Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

@flog.3485 said:Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:-Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage-Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage-elusive mind for a bit more sustain

The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:-the free dodges when CC’ed-the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

Remove shatter from mirage,This is more in line with the mirage design

[flog.3485]

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:

@"lordorinko.6978" said:Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

@flog.3485 said:Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:-Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage-Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage-elusive mind for a bit more sustain

The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:-the free dodges when CC’ed-the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

Remove shatter from mirage,This is more in line with the mirage design

Lol that will never happen. Too much traits are dependent on the shattering mechanic.

[yusayu.3629]

@flog.3485 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:

@"lordorinko.6978" said:Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

@flog.3485 said:Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:-Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage-Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage-elusive mind for a bit more sustain

The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:-the free dodges when CC’ed-the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

Ofc you would need to nerf ambush attacks in general, if you were to make IH available as a base-line trait. Also, Phantasms obviously shouldn't do Ambush attacks, only clones. Phantasms are already pretty weak in PvP, though, and the fact that they eventually become clones hasn't really made them useful in PvP either.

My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

Where would Phantasms become stronger in this equation? I never said that Phantasms should perform Ambush attacks, I was only talking about clones.

Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

Well, kind of. You are still limited by the animation speed, especially that of your clones. But still, you could just change/buff Dune Cloak a bit.

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:

@"lordorinko.6978" said:Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

@flog.3485 said:Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:-Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage-Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage-elusive mind for a bit more sustain

The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:-the free dodges when CC’ed-the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

Remove shatter from mirage,This is more in line with the mirage design

But then there would need to be something else you should be able to do with your clones. Otherwise, when you're at 3 clones you'll just waste them and resummon them for no reason. If you remove shatters, you'd have to remove the 3-clone-limit imo, but the game probably couldn't handle that.

[Delofasht.4231]

Interesting ideas here overall, the GM traits could be focused on dodges, as they already somewhat are.

One point brought up is that of removing shatters for Mirage, which honestly I had never even considered. Such a change would require far more work than anything we are discussing in simply changing or adding a GM trait though, and would require tons of ideation and iteration to refine such a concept, then implementation would become troublesome. I believe it would be easier to request our GM trait balancing as a response to the changes to phantasms so as to make the elite profession more varied and interesting to play.

Currently, Dune Cloak may not be as bad as it feels in certain builds, but it still lacks quite a bit of consistency and loses value anytime the player isn't close to the target and utilizing a Mirage Cloak. This reduces it's value significantly, and the most simple way to resolve this deficiency, that I can think of, would be to have each clone alive also apply a single stack of bleeding around it's location when the Mesmer gains Mirage Cloak. This has a benefit for the trait, as it then scales with clones in play as well as with the endurance generation, in effect increasing it's versatility as well as the damage output. After such a change, if it turns out too strong reducing the number of stacks applied by the Mesmer itself could easily be reduced if 6 stacks at point blank ended up being too strong.

Once again, Elusive Mind still feels lackluster and could benefit from gaining an effect of Chaos Armor or something after the Mirage Cloak ends. It just needs a little something on the defensive end or an offensive effect to balance out the penalty of 100% endurance reduction. IF it can get balanced in such a way then it would prove a very viable option for a bunker build.

[ZeteCommander.4937]

@flog.3485 said:

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:

@"lordorinko.6978" said:Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

@flog.3485 said:Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:-Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage-Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage-elusive mind for a bit more sustain

The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:-the free dodges when CC’ed-the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

Remove shatter from mirage,This is more in line with the mirage design

Lol that will never happen. Too much traits are dependent on the shattering mechanic.

The Nec is an example.

[ZeteCommander.4937]

@yusayu.3629 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:

@"lordorinko.6978" said:Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

@flog.3485 said:Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:-Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage-Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage-elusive mind for a bit more sustain

The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:-the free dodges when CC’ed-the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

Ofc you would need to nerf ambush attacks in general, if you were to make IH available as a base-line trait. Also, Phantasms obviously shouldn't do Ambush attacks, only clones. Phantasms are already pretty weak in PvP, though, and the fact that they

eventually

become clones hasn't really made them useful in PvP either.

My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

Where would Phantasms become stronger in this equation? I never said that Phantasms should perform Ambush attacks, I was only talking about clones.

Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

Well, kind of. You are still limited by the animation speed, especially that of your clones. But still, you could just change/buff Dune Cloak a bit.

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:

@flog.3485 said:

@yusayu.3629 said:

@"lordorinko.6978" said:Maybe, just maybe if the mesmer weren't so disgusting to play against in pvp they would be less harsh to the class. But evasion, dodge, invis, one shot bursts, condi cleanses, TARGETING DISRUPTION (in a fcking mmorpg btw) is not enough for a class i guess. Yeah mesmer needs buff since they can still one shot from invis and go invis again and do all the other stuff.

How do you "oneshot from invis and go invis again"? You have exactly one invis on the usual build. Torch 4. You use about 7 abilities for the instagib combo, which leaves you with one average CC, two dodges and one short-range teleport. On a class with barely any health and the ability to cleanse exactly 3 conditions IF the enemy is not dodging right that moment. Also, no, Mirage doesn't have all of that on the same build. If you have a build that incorporates all of the above and has any merit in the current PvP environment, please link it.

@flog.3485 said:Ideally the grandmaster traits should work like that imo:-Infinitive horizon to enhance power mirage-Dune cloak to enhance condi mirage-elusive mind for a bit more sustain

The problem though is that elusive mind is useless as whole because of the core ability of dodging while being cc’ed, because in PvE there is not enough threats to make it seem like you want to use it, because in PvP modes getting a high amount

There'll always be traits that will be worthless in either PvP or PvE. For PvE you will always take whatever gives the most DPS, but that doesn't mean that all traits should straight-up enhance DPS. Imo IH is too much fun and fits too well with the Mirage profession to leave it as a choice. It should be built into the class. They could replace Nomad's Endurance with IH, and give Mirage some Vigor generation as a grandmaster. Then you'd have the choice between more dodges, stronger dodges & more damage when dodging. Something like "Shatter skills grant Vigor, whenever you gain Vigor generate a clone", or "After you and your clones have successfully hit 3 ambush attacks (multiple axes from a single ambush attack don't count), gain Vigor. Also, the effects of Vigor are enhanced by 30%."

I could see why you would do that, but your idea sounds like pure power creep though. If we are going to make the mechanic of ambushes available to clones and phantasms as a built-in feature of the elite spec, then other nerfs need to be implemented for mirage as a whole on:-the free dodges when CC’ed-the fact that you get clones out of phantasms as well.

My message got cut-off for some unknown reason but I also really don’t like the fact that phantasm damages are being enhanced while a phantasm at a core level is already doing what they are supposed to do. And in that regard, I am opposed to have it gain more through ambushes (without choices).

Your proposition doesn’t make much sense to me as well. “More dodges” or “more damages when dodging” are basically the same because the more dodges you have the more damages you are going to do.

Remove shatter from mirage,This is more in line with the mirage design

But then there would need to be something else you should be able to do with your clones. Otherwise, when you're at 3 clones you'll just waste them and resummon them for no reason. If you remove shatters, you'd have to remove the 3-clone-limit imo, but the game probably couldn't handle that.

Maybe special shatter that relevant to the theme of mirage or Chronomancer

[yusayu.3629]

@Delofasht.4231 said:

Once again, Elusive Mind still feels lackluster and could benefit from gaining an effect of Chaos Armor or something after the Mirage Cloak ends. It just needs a little something on the defensive end or an offensive effect to balance out the penalty of 100% endurance reduction. IF it can get balanced in such a way then it would prove a very viable option for a bunker build.

Honestly, they should just reduce the duration that you are exhausted or remove the exhaustion and give the trait some other drawback, like an actual cooldown.