The new sides king after the update (if nerfs for holo, spb, sb, herald, and scrap come through)

[Megametzler.5729]

@Gundam Style.8495 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:

(...) despite really good players explaining and PROVING otherwise? (...)

Proving as in played in mATs? There was no fire weaver in Plat3 last season on EU.

Fire weaver is not problematic and won't be. It offers slightly more damage over water, but less sustain and some support in terms of projectile denial instead ov mobility and disengage potential. Just watch out for the glyph, you can actually see it on the buff bar... is that asking for too much?

The snippet you quoted was referring to Ele in general, and not specifically fire weaver. It seems like each class has one specialization that is generally considered useful. It may be the Core spec, HoT spec, or PoF spec. The problem is not so apparent now as it will be

WHEN

the others get taken down a notch. I honestly believe the developers are trying to take the game, even PvP, in a fresher direction. It may be slow and hard to imagine because of the past, but I got a good feeling about the crew we have now. The "tradeoff" approach they are pushing probably will not stop at druid, daredevil, and berserker. By the way, maybe there are no fire weavers in platinum3, but there are weavers there. They may not be in MATs but I think those that are, are going to lose some presence soon. But, I just wanted to point out that I updated my original post prior to this series including weaver in general and not just specifically fire. If all is balanced, it would be nice if every side noder was just as viable as the next, perhaps just different flavors instead of a must pick.

Ah, I read it as mainly referring to fire weaver.

Then I agree, with some other specs nerfed, weaver might become as strong as other side noders. Hardly OP, because other bunkers can stall them as well (scrapper, defensive holo builds, druids and stuff), but you never know. It would be well earned for eles though. :wink:

So, relax and see what happens. I doubt there will be significant nerfs anyways.

[LazySummer.2568]

you honestly think a balance team that came up with the current form of rampage, daggerstorm, swipe, and basically every single pof espec is capable of nerfing all the classes you listed correctly while simultanouesly leaving weaver unnerfed?

[Menyus.4610]

@LazySummer.2568 said:you honestly think a balance team that came up with the current form of rampage, daggerstorm, swipe, and basically every single pof espec is capable of nerfing all the classes you listed correctly while simultanouesly leaving weaver unnerfed?

I really dont think daggerstrom is a problem, however im a thief player and might be biased here. I see the fellow players blame it quite many times, but honestly from thief perspective i would only change the improvisation trait, maybe to dont affect elite skills, or completely rework the random skill category recharge tbh.Also DS can be negated in so many ways, and can be interrupted too by some skills, it is a great tool for thieves atm, and im afraid we gonna see an even bigger thief population decrease in case of a nerf

[Draconious.2751]

Weaver is pretty dam close to perfect balance. Changing builds involves alot of tradeoffs. Fire weaver vs water weaver are on two different ends of the spectrum. Fire sacrifices mobility, sustain, and crit damage for increased condi and raw power damage. I could see smothering auras being changed slightly to make fire weaver more vulnerable to condis and thus the sustain worse.

However, the actions of the weaver is fairly predictable as the buff bar reveals their intent. Swapped to water? Going to heal, #2 sword lays a water field and an evade prob will blast that water field. Swapped to fire? Gonna start putting out condis and damage. Lava skin and primordial stance pop? Back off for 5 seconds or until you stop hearing the electric sounding pusle.

There will always be a class on top. I think weaver in its current form is a good candidate. Builds have tradeoffs. Skills have sufficent tells and sound cues. Class has a relatively high skill floor and ceiling.

[Ivarian.9018]

@Draconious.2751 said:I could see smothering auras being changed slightly to make fire weaver more vulnerable to condis and thus the sustain worse.

If condi removal is nerfed from the fire trait line, there will be not much for it compared with playing water. The condi removal aspect of the fire weaver allows him to fight high condi pressure builds like Mirage and Necro. I will even say that fire weaver is one of their counter today. Let's not forget that a fire weaver must be in close range to apply its burns and is therefore exposed to condi bursting himself when he does not have any sustain to compensate except some evades.

[Ivarian.9018]

Deleted...Message posted twice.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

Cheers talking to yourself.

[Gundam Style.8495]

@"EnderzShadow.2506" said:

YOU WANT 5 CLASSES NERFED IN ONE $HIY THREAD! **

No I don't. I am referring to the other threads discussing those specs in the title. But, let's say you are correct. List exactly each nerf I asked for.....You can't because I did not mention any. Get some reading comprehension boy.

---

These threads are where you can find desired nerf discussions. (current desired nerfs)https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/79593/nerf-mantra-mesmers-and-revenants#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/76876/with-the-focus-on-soulbeast-did-we-forget-about-holo#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/76750/soulbeast-needs-some-genuine-nerf-bat-love-in-the-next-balance-update#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/79318/nerf-rev-before-everyone-quits#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/79654/anet-please-remember-to-nerf-the-bunkers-when-you-nerf-damage#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/71032/scrapper-is-overpowered-in-pvp#latesthttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/76876/with-the-focus-on-soulbeast-did-we-forget-about-holo#latest

[Widmo.3186]

xD people complaining about weaver when things like SB, holo, rev, scrapper and other thingys exist, omegalul (why wonder about patches that dont even exist yet? and do you really think that ANet will use magic wand and balance all those mentioned by you classes in one patch? really? just calm down and see what happens, even if "fireweaver monster" will appear, let it exist for one season, Mirage existed for X months and you are crying about something that didnt come real yet).You dont want to fight against it, just kite it. S/d has 3 gap closers, 1 being most easiest interruptable dash in the game, the other 2 are 15 and 40s cd. Fireweaver has even less, but compensate if with mid-range CCs. And if u n e e d to fight it, put as much pressure as you can, weaver skills are clumsy and predictable, it looks like evade-machine, but 20s of constant pressure and it's dead.

If u want to further big-nerf Weaver you can already delete this class, holo (in current state) will eat it all over, chew and spit on the ground. I very rarely say that, but this is L2P issue. Small nerfs for condi damage of Fireweaver, okay, but nothing big. And as far as i know methods of ANet "ele balancing" if there will be any nerfs, they'll nerf it to the ground because they have no idea what they're doing, especially with this class. Thats why I (and many other eles) dont want them to touch it, even with a stick.

non Fireweaver player speaking, kitten condi builds lol

[Yuff.4650]

I play fire weaver in Platinum, it's an average build. And may be an average player may suffer from him (gold level).The build is very vulnerable to conditions pressure and CC. Lack of stun-breaks as usual.Heal is low.Water weaver may handle conditions way better and has way better healing (HPS).And like any other signet of restoration weaver, he is very vulnerable to freeze. Freez him and his heal will gone.Burning is top applied condition and easily could be removed which leave him without a real damage.Also burst is very visible and easily could be avoided. just run bit away for a few seconds until burst of primordial stance will be finished and then you can attack and kill him.

[Gundam Style.8495]

Well, look at this prediction. Guess who was right. (me)

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Gundam Style.8495 said:Playing the sides isn't really a class role and that is why it is the most frequently attacked.

That's a hot take but damned if it ain't reasonable

Also #Poststhatagedwell

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

@Gundam Style.8495 said:Well, look at this prediction. Guess who was right. (me)

grats

[LazySummer.2568]

@Gundam Style.8495 said:Well, look at this prediction. Guess who was right. (me)

thief is also a meta sidenoder right now though so you're not really right :^)

[Gundam Style.8495]

@LazySummer.2568 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:Well, look at this prediction. Guess who was right. (me)

thief is also a meta sidenoder right now though so you're not really right :^)

so thief is the king sidenoder?

[Sindrener.1592]

@Gundam Style.8495 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:Well, look at this prediction. Guess who was right. (me)

thief is also a meta sidenoder right now though so you're not really right :^)

so thief is the king sidenoder?

Pw thief can win most 1v1 matchups and stale weaver, but it also dies faster to +1s and it also loses MU to core ranger/slb/symbol brand meanwhile water weav can stale everything/beat very few but is immortal to +1s

[Leonidrex.5649]

@bluri.2653 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:Well, look at this prediction. Guess who was right. (me)

thief is also a meta sidenoder right now though so you're not really right :^)

so thief is the king sidenoder?

Pw thief can win most 1v1 matchups and stale weaver, but it also dies faster to +1s and it also loses MU to core ranger/slb/symbol brand meanwhile water weav can stale everything/beat very few but is immortal to +1s

hol up, how can thief stall weaver? this one sounds ridiculous to me.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:Well, look at this prediction. Guess who was right. (me)

thief is also a meta sidenoder right now though so you're not really right :^)

so thief is the king sidenoder?

Pw thief can win most 1v1 matchups and stale weaver, but it also dies faster to +1s and it also loses MU to core ranger/slb/symbol brand meanwhile water weav can stale everything/beat very few but is immortal to +1s

hol up, how can thief stall weaver? this one sounds ridiculous to me.

The cleanse on evade renders weaver's condi damage useless. Not sure whether equal skill is a stalemate, but it is close.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

what nerfs are "coming" thru?

[Don Vega Van Kain.9842]

@AlexPlay.8436 said:I play fire weaver in Platinum, it's an average build. And may be an average player may suffer from him (gold level).The build is very vulnerable to conditions pressure and CC. Lack of stun-breaks as usual.Heal is low.Water weaver may handle conditions way better and has way better healing (HPS).And like any other signet of restoration weaver, he is very vulnerable to freeze. Freez him and his heal will gone.Burning is top applied condition and easily could be removed which leave him without a real damage.Also burst is very visible and easily could be avoided. just run bit away for a few seconds until burst of primordial stance will be finished and then you can attack and kill him.

Really and without any meanness from my part, if you think fire weaver is vulnerabale to condi's and cc's , You mess something or you don' know how to play it......

You don't even need an utility cleaning skill, every aura you'll had (from you or others) cleans a condi, Magnetic Wave clean 3 condis, with all the blast finishers that you can can blast in your water fields (healing) and all the barriers, i think you have enough weapons to deal with condis......

cc....?? every stance grant you stability, how many stance you have ?? how many evads you have ???

I don't know what to say at this point.......

fire weaver is a problem, have to nerf the output condi damage or the evads uptime .

[Dantheman.3589]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:Well, look at this prediction. Guess who was right. (me)

thief is also a meta sidenoder right now though so you're not really right :^)

so thief is the king sidenoder?

Pw thief can win most 1v1 matchups and stale weaver, but it also dies faster to +1s and it also loses MU to core ranger/slb/symbol brand meanwhile water weav can stale everything/beat very few but is immortal to +1s

hol up, how can thief stall weaver? this one sounds ridiculous to me.

The cleanse on evade renders weaver's condi damage useless. Not sure whether equal skill is a stalemate, but it is close.

Condi damage is actually a little more effective against perma dodge builds. I wouldn’t say it can stalemate at all, any thief build can just avoid attackers and dodge to try and keep node on their side or from getting capped for a bit but as a 1v1er pw dash is no where close to better side noders in this meta like prot holo , weaver, guardians etc. only one it might beat is condi mirage or dps holosmith and it’s still a maybe.Though there are other thief builds that can stall forever in a 1v1 like bunker staff, though it’s weak to plusses now and a few more damage oriented builds that’ll actually win these 1v1s from burst, which maybe pw dash can do sometimes.In the end thief rn is mostly being played as a brawler so the fact it can handle 1v1s for a tiny bit is not surprising, but actual side node builds are usually duelist so thief won’t be even close to the top as a side noder

[Megametzler.5729]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:Well, look at this prediction. Guess who was right. (me)

thief is also a meta sidenoder right now though so you're not really right :^)

so thief is the king sidenoder?

Pw thief can win most 1v1 matchups and stale weaver, but it also dies faster to +1s and it also loses MU to core ranger/slb/symbol brand meanwhile water weav can stale everything/beat very few but is immortal to +1s

hol up, how can thief stall weaver? this one sounds ridiculous to me.

The cleanse on evade renders weaver's condi damage useless. Not sure whether equal skill is a stalemate, but it is close.

Condi damage is actually a little more effective against perma dodge builds. I wouldn’t say it can stalemate at all, any thief build can just avoid attackers and dodge to try and keep node on their side or from getting capped for a bit but as a 1v1er pw dash is no where close to better side noders in this meta like prot holo , weaver, guardians etc. only one it might beat is condi mirage or dps holosmith and it’s still a maybe.Though there are other thief builds that can stall forever in a 1v1 like bunker staff, though it’s weak to plusses now and a few more damage oriented builds that’ll actually win these 1v1s from burst, which maybe pw dash can do sometimes.In the end thief rn is mostly being played as a brawler so the fact it can handle 1v1s for a tiny bit is not surprising, but actual side node builds are usually duelist so thief won’t be even close to the top as a side noder

I am not saying thief is the greatest side noder. A weaver should never actually lose to a thief in a duel scenario (assuming equal skill level).

But here I am referring to Escapist's Fortitude. It gives S/P thief a great too versus condi weaver, because of few cover conditions. This makes dodges rather good, because few weaver skills are stowable.

[Dantheman.3589]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:Well, look at this prediction. Guess who was right. (me)

thief is also a meta sidenoder right now though so you're not really right :^)

so thief is the king sidenoder?

Pw thief can win most 1v1 matchups and stale weaver, but it also dies faster to +1s and it also loses MU to core ranger/slb/symbol brand meanwhile water weav can stale everything/beat very few but is immortal to +1s

hol up, how can thief stall weaver? this one sounds ridiculous to me.

The cleanse on evade renders weaver's condi damage useless. Not sure whether equal skill is a stalemate, but it is close.

Condi damage is actually a little more effective against perma dodge builds. I wouldn’t say it can stalemate at all, any thief build can just avoid attackers and dodge to try and keep node on their side or from getting capped for a bit but as a 1v1er pw dash is no where close to better side noders in this meta like prot holo , weaver, guardians etc. only one it might beat is condi mirage or dps holosmith and it’s still a maybe.Though there are other thief builds that can stall forever in a 1v1 like bunker staff, though it’s weak to plusses now and a few more damage oriented builds that’ll actually win these 1v1s from burst, which maybe pw dash can do sometimes.In the end thief rn is mostly being played as a brawler so the fact it can handle 1v1s for a tiny bit is not surprising, but actual side node builds are usually duelist so thief won’t be even close to the top as a side noder

I am not saying thief is the greatest side noder. A weaver should never actually lose to a thief in a duel scenario (assuming equal skill level).

But here I am referring to Escapist's Fortitude. It gives S/P thief a great too versus condi weaver, because of few cover conditions. This makes dodges rather good, because few weaver skills are stowable.

I can actually agree that escapist fortitude is kind of op. I honestly don’t think pw in general is a problem, but it can damage evade and cc and with this trait it also sustains. I wouldn’t really want the trait to be nerfed as it would hurt some other builds, if I would suggest a change it would just be take away 1 role of pw. Not because it’s busted but for some roles totally unfun to see in a match

[Megametzler.5729]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:Well, look at this prediction. Guess who was right. (me)

thief is also a meta sidenoder right now though so you're not really right :^)

so thief is the king sidenoder?

Pw thief can win most 1v1 matchups and stale weaver, but it also dies faster to +1s and it also loses MU to core ranger/slb/symbol brand meanwhile water weav can stale everything/beat very few but is immortal to +1s

hol up, how can thief stall weaver? this one sounds ridiculous to me.

The cleanse on evade renders weaver's condi damage useless. Not sure whether equal skill is a stalemate, but it is close.

Condi damage is actually a little more effective against perma dodge builds. I wouldn’t say it can stalemate at all, any thief build can just avoid attackers and dodge to try and keep node on their side or from getting capped for a bit but as a 1v1er pw dash is no where close to better side noders in this meta like prot holo , weaver, guardians etc. only one it might beat is condi mirage or dps holosmith and it’s still a maybe.Though there are other thief builds that can stall forever in a 1v1 like bunker staff, though it’s weak to plusses now and a few more damage oriented builds that’ll actually win these 1v1s from burst, which maybe pw dash can do sometimes.In the end thief rn is mostly being played as a brawler so the fact it can handle 1v1s for a tiny bit is not surprising, but actual side node builds are usually duelist so thief won’t be even close to the top as a side noder

I am not saying thief is the greatest side noder. A weaver should never actually lose to a thief in a duel scenario (assuming equal skill level).

But here I am referring to Escapist's Fortitude. It gives S/P thief a great too versus condi weaver, because of few cover conditions. This makes dodges rather good, because few weaver skills are stowable.

I can actually agree that escapist fortitude is kind of op. I honestly don’t think pw in general is a problem, but it can damage evade and cc and with this trait it also sustains. I wouldn’t really want the trait to be nerfed as it would hurt some other builds, if I would suggest a change it would just be take away 1 role of pw. Not because it’s busted but for some roles totally unfun to see in a match

Role? You mean duelist/+1/decapper?

I am no expert thief, so I'd leave suggestions to you guys. I also don't find it too annoying, since it doesn't excell in its roles, but I agree, it might simply be too flexible. Escapist's Fortitude might be strong, but I'd be fine if thief could spec for sustain condi-wise. As long as they would have less access to disengage or something else. Dunno.

[Dantheman.3589]

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:

@LazySummer.2568 said:

@Gundam Style.8495 said:Well, look at this prediction. Guess who was right. (me)

thief is also a meta sidenoder right now though so you're not really right :^)

so thief is the king sidenoder?

Pw thief can win most 1v1 matchups and stale weaver, but it also dies faster to +1s and it also loses MU to core ranger/slb/symbol brand meanwhile water weav can stale everything/beat very few but is immortal to +1s

hol up, how can thief stall weaver? this one sounds ridiculous to me.

The cleanse on evade renders weaver's condi damage useless. Not sure whether equal skill is a stalemate, but it is close.

Condi damage is actually a little more effective against perma dodge builds. I wouldn’t say it can stalemate at all, any thief build can just avoid attackers and dodge to try and keep node on their side or from getting capped for a bit but as a 1v1er pw dash is no where close to better side noders in this meta like prot holo , weaver, guardians etc. only one it might beat is condi mirage or dps holosmith and it’s still a maybe.Though there are other thief builds that can stall forever in a 1v1 like bunker staff, though it’s weak to plusses now and a few more damage oriented builds that’ll actually win these 1v1s from burst, which maybe pw dash can do sometimes.In the end thief rn is mostly being played as a brawler so the fact it can handle 1v1s for a tiny bit is not surprising, but actual side node builds are usually duelist so thief won’t be even close to the top as a side noder

I am not saying thief is the greatest side noder. A weaver should never actually lose to a thief in a duel scenario (assuming equal skill level).

But here I am referring to Escapist's Fortitude. It gives S/P thief a great too versus condi weaver, because of few cover conditions. This makes dodges rather good, because few weaver skills are stowable.

I can actually agree that escapist fortitude is kind of op. I honestly don’t think pw in general is a problem, but it can damage evade and cc and with this trait it also sustains. I wouldn’t really want the trait to be nerfed as it would hurt some other builds, if I would suggest a change it would just be take away 1 role of pw. Not because it’s busted but for some roles totally unfun to see in a match

Role? You mean duelist/+1/decapper?

I am no expert thief, so I'd leave suggestions to you guys. I also don't find it too annoying, since it doesn't excell in its roles, but I agree, it might simply be too flexible. Escapist's Fortitude might be strong, but I'd be fine if thief could spec for sustain condi-wise. As long as they would have less access to disengage or something else. Dunno.

I mean it’s difficult for some ppl like necro s maybe and anyone trying avoid a plus 1 as they might not even get a chance to hit them. So most likely I think the evade should be nerfed otherwise the only thing that would make it less annoying would be if it got hit hard damage wise in the upcoming power creep balance patch