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Nerf Mantra Mesmers and Revenants


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@shadowpass.4236 said:

The mirage doesn't need any of those defenses because the burst will hit 100% of the time if they aren't a potato and can time instant cast ccs. They don't even need the mantras to set up the burst. Blink + Diversion with Confounding Suggestions is effectively an instant 1200 range stun that can be used WHILST simultaneously casting gs2.I'm not going to argue this point any further.Running berserk build with no safe-nets and just 2 evades = dont need any defense?Almost 7 years mesmer do the same over and over and people still cant learn... If they rework completely GS and give mesmer a new(viable) way to play that would be great tho.Why you made a thread and crying about POWER mesmer if you dont want to argue ?:DDDDDDDDDDDDD

Oo5b1hQ.png?1

lol this is my second time playing this berserker power mirage build and I went 26-0 with 40% of the team's damage cause the bursts are so easy to land

in a 12 min 30 second match that means I was getting roughly one kill every 27 seconds

"dont need any defense" 4Head OmegaLUL

LAMO, I can do 50% up damage without mantra as a power mirage in unranked, it is not hard when 4 of ur teammates are newbie.

Are you kidding me?

All anet should do is nerf BS first, ok?

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double anything is frustrating duuhh..

2 Holos = CC AoE Boon Party2 Spellbreakers = CC, Tanky, Rampage2 Mirage = annoying illusions, daze etc2 Scourge = Massive AoE denial and corrupt2 Soulbeasts = kinda same deal as Holos but less CC but more of the other stuff2 Weavers = dodgeparty2 Firebrands = bleh stab & sustain2 Heralds = nuke through the roof2 Teefs = oh well im gonna.. i dunno.. you wont win with double teef on a regular basis...

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@viquing.8254 said:Not really, it need way more clic and preparation than all other burst class to do the same damage output.

I've always worried about that. People say that burst is difficult to pull off because of the above reasons, but does the ability to land a full burst combo from a safe distance/without needing to heavily weigh counterpressure unless you whiff get considered skillful simply because you have to press more buttons?

That's digression though. Let's not nerf power mesmers right now. Mantras having no telegraph is silly, but power lock as a utility is fine, and power spike has a low base damage. They still need utility given back to portal, besides.

Revenants I can take or leave. They all run shiro/glint because nobody condibombs them.

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So my issue is with the glitterbomb class is clutter. Not the skills or traits, or not even just the elites anymore at this point. It's all of the stupid clutter that this stupid class causes when there are MULTIPLE MESMERS on the same thing. Even with a high end pc is skill delay and busy effects is BONKERS. AND never have I ran into a class that actively slams that much clutter on a computer screen in my life.

The concept in itself is disgusting. I VERY MUCH prefer gw1 mesmers because at least there is ONE person there doing those interrupts/Mana drain/DOTs. I don't think any pvp/fighting game had as much clones/phantasms on the screen as mesmer does in general. Yes, there are clone classes/characters, but I've never seen it so spammy. Honestly, their theme and concept is awful in a PvP sense.

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All other Professions must be nerfed to the ground first.

As for Mesmer; until a complete profession rework/redesign--Don't nerf them

As for Thief; completely remove them until stability and healthy balances are reinforced in the game

(Than bring them back to the game with a complete healthy complete redesign)

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Mesmer is fine. The current builds are just counters for the cookie cutter double rev meta everyone is playing right now.

Classes like rifle holo and sd theif shut mesmer down very well. It's just the case that NA has no good thieves playing and only a limited amount of good holos. Because of this you get super greedy mesmer builds running around unpunished.

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@"Lilyanna.9361" said:So my issue is with the glitterbomb class is clutter. Not the skills or traits, or not even just the elites anymore at this point. It's all of the stupid clutter that this stupid class causes when there are MULTIPLE MESMERS on the same thing. Even with a high end pc is skill delay and busy effects is BONKERS. AND never have I ran into a class that actively slams that much clutter on a computer screen in my life.

The concept in itself is disgusting. I VERY MUCH prefer gw1 mesmers because at least there is ONE person there doing those interrupts/Mana drain/DOTs. I don't think any pvp/fighting game had as much clones/phantasms on the screen as mesmer does in general. Yes, there are clone classes/characters, but I've never seen it so spammy. Honestly, their theme and concept is awful in a PvP sense.

I've fought double Condition Mirages on my rather medium-end gaming laptop (mainly a work laptop, it's not optimized to game) with a specific Graphics setup for PvP. In that scenario, I never got a lag because of too many renders. Not to mention I was also a condition Mirage spewing out my own three clones with effects.

You may want to solely reduce your quality of video effects if you have problems with Mesmers in general. I even got a friend to send me an armada of 10+ phantasms as chronomancer and didn't experience lag (that experience though gave me slight trauma at just how scary can 10 AIs be XD ). It's not "unhealthy", it's a new concept you have to get used to - veteran and newby alike. Try playing the class a bit. You'll see that those clones die to anything.

And I'm a Ranger main that would love to see Sic Em die even if I'm playing it in PvP. 60k rapid fire combos are nuts and worse than one shot mirage at its prime because of the exasperatingly long range it can do it.

As for OP: you have a L2P issue. Although I do agree that Herald is busted damage-wise, play a condition build and see just how they melt easily. For one shot Mirage... you got memed, man, I'm sorry for you. At least one shot Chronomancer is minimally easier to pull off XD - from an ex-Mesmer main.

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@"Lilyanna.9361" said:So my issue is with the glitterbomb class is clutter. Not the skills or traits, or not even just the elites anymore at this point. It's all of the stupid clutter that this stupid class causes when there are MULTIPLE MESMERS on the same thing. Even with a high end pc is skill delay and busy effects is BONKERS. AND never have I ran into a class that actively slams that much clutter on a computer screen in my life.How its related to the thread? Mantra mesmer dont even produce that many clones to make anyone lag. Your "skill delay" is definitely not because of a mesmer, more likely your internet. Unless you are confused PvP with open world bosses.

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My how the tables have turned. :tongue:

Joking aside, I think both experiences speak to the general undesirability of 1-shot bursts with limited counterplay. Meme build, l2p or not, it just isn't fun. Everyone will be taken by it the first time, likely the second, and probably more times to come unless they have the luxury of knowing someone to practice countering the combo with. By definition, these "meme builds" aren't common in matches, so adequate practice is seldom available there. Sure, one can study the combo "on paper" but that isn't the same as having a reliable sparring partner. Until then, sure it's a l2p issue, but one for which there aren't all that many options to l2p for a lot of people.

1-shot just isn't healthy. Most of the 1-shot builds are "not used at the top" and serve no purpose other than to troll a large portion of the player base, many of whom will never really be able to learn how to deal with it. Not a winning formula for a populated game mode, in my opinion. So yeah, some adjustments to the offending builds, including the ones that are the subject of this discussion, may be in order.

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@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:My how the tables have turned. :tongue:

Joking aside, I think both experiences speak to the general undesirability of 1-shot bursts with limited counterplay. Meme build, l2p or not, it just isn't fun. Everyone will be taken by it the first time, likely the second, and probably more times to come unless they have the luxury of knowing someone to practice countering the combo with. By definition, these "meme builds" aren't common in matches, so adequate practice is seldom available there. Sure, one can study the combo "on paper" but that isn't the same as having a reliable sparring partner. Until then, sure it's a l2p issue, but one for which there aren't all that many options to l2p for a lot of people.

1-shot just isn't healthy. Most of the 1-shot builds are "not used at the top" and serve no purpose other than to troll a large portion of the player base, many of whom will never really be able to learn how to deal with it. Not a winning formula for a populated game mode, in my opinion. So yeah, some adjustments to the offending builds, including the ones that are the subject of this discussion, may be in order.

I seems like this is the hammer that hits the nail on the head. I agree with most all the nerf threads about "1-shot" builds because most of them are not healthy for the game in their current state. While there is a bit of L2P to it, it still contains a degree of luck as well (being able to expect when it's coming) which isn't good. The more important point I would like to reiterate on (and I've been guilty of ignoring) is that the majority of the player base probably doesn't have the experience or opportunity to deal with this kind of build. Just because I don't have an issue with Sic 'em SB doesn't mean a ton of other people don't. The more I participate in these forums the more I see the of the pot calling the kettle black in regards to certain profession's meme 1-shot builds. We need a mega thread detailing all the power creep and problematic builds, honestly.

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One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

Who here has actually played one shot mantra mes lately? I have. You literally get farmed by so many classes (especially a thief or condi mes) once they know that ur running a one shot build. And that's how it should be. Farm me or I'll farm your necros etc. - plenty of counterplay there, just dont let the mantra mes free cast. Have map awareness or get punished for not having it.

Case in point - MLGKorno farmed me yesterday so badly while i was playing mantra mes. I've never been farmed that hard b4 in a game. He just ignored my teammates and waited for me to spawn and cut me off from doing anything the entire game. He kept tabs on me like i was a Tijuana hooker. It was pretty awful and glorious at the same time. It also made me realize how much i suck. Oof.

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@Sampson.2403 said:One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

Oh no apparently as I was told in another thread you can 1v3 with a build like one shot mantra and it's super competitive. And anyone who cant do a 1v3 and win needs to L2P cause it can even oneshot full health holo's, warriors, and necro's so that makes it viable in every competitive environment

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@"Sampson.2403" said:One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

Who here has actually played one shot mantra mes lately? I have. You literally get farmed by so many classes (especially a thief or condi mes) once they know that ur running a one shot build. And that's how it should be. Farm me or I'll farm your necros etc. - plenty of counterplay there, just dont let the mantra mes free cast. Have map awareness or get punished for not having it.

Case in point - MLGKorno farmed me yesterday so badly while i was playing mantra mes. I've never been farmed that hard b4 in a game. He just ignored my teammates and waited for me to spawn and cut me off from doing anything the entire game. He kept tabs on me like i was a Tijuana hooker. It was pretty awful and glorious at the same time. It also made me realize how much i suck. Oof.

This is all personal anecdote as I don't know where to get the actual number but I would imagine the majority of the sPvP community doesn't play "competitively". Also as with most competitive video games the higher levels of PvP is the minority. Does it really make sense to let builds like these run rampant in the lower, larger community just because it's not viable in higher end competitive play? Wouldn't it be better to nerf these builds and actually give them something more healthy to play that's not a farm or get farmed build?

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So if I read this right, one should not be allowed to play the build he wants, because it's a one shot build that others do not know how to counter because they don't want to invest time learning how to counter it? That in itself is just ridiculous. > @Solori.6025 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

Oh no apparently as I was told in another thread you can 1v3 with a build like one shot mantra and it's super competitive. And anyone who cant do a 1v3 and win needs to L2P cause it can even oneshot full health holo's, warriors, and necro's so that makes it viable in every competitive environment

I sure do hope you're trolling. A mantra mesmer right now does not have the capacity to 3v1 3 at the same time - gradually, yes- but not at the same time.

It's not fun, but when do you actually see a one-shot mesmer in plat+ that actually impacts the game? Very rarely. Very.

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I> @DigiQWill.6378 said:

So if I read this right, one should not be allowed to play the build he wants, because it's a one shot build that others do not know how to counter because they don't want to invest time learning how to counter it? That in itself is just ridiculous. > @Solori.6025 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

Oh no apparently as I was told in another thread you can 1v3 with a build like one shot mantra and it's super competitive. And anyone who cant do a 1v3 and win needs to L2P cause it can even oneshot full health holo's, warriors, and necro's so that makes it viable in every competitive environment

I sure do hope you're trolling. A mantra mesmer right now does not have the capacity to 3v1 3 at the same time - gradually, yes- but not at the same time.

It's not fun, but when do you actually see a one-shot mesmer in plat+ that actually impacts the game? Very rarely. Very.

I pm'd you but yes..that is real..and you'll see where it's from

Oh and I forgot. Mesmer can bunker forever. It's better than scrapper apparently

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I think ranged burst damaged should come from skill shots like in League of Legends so you have to aim carefully your big burst. Most ranged burst doesn't feel fair, cause you just point at the target and press the button. Skills like Rapid fire and Judgement might have animation but its not really good at giving information for the hit and you just point and hit no Sniping involved from the supposed sniper classes.Mesmer has better animation for the big chunk of damage from the rune under your feet but with all that cc in a quick succession on top of that bug with Diversion when the clones daze one after another from invisibility no less kinda ruins the point. Also it has such low CD on the burst so if the mesmererer messes up he just resets and does it again, though low CD is almost on everything now and everything is big hit skill.So if those skills were skill shots instead of guided missiles it would help the game feel more skillful. To tell you the truth you have to aim better with melee skills to hit anything then hitting anyone from range Executioner's Scythe, Death spiral, Gravedigger, Hundred blade, Maul all these skills have wind up and big animation for their damage output but there isn't any good one for ranged bursts. Even the Rock from Rampage is point and click magic homing missile with terribly small animation.

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@Vancho.8750 said:I think ranged burst damaged should come from skill shots like in League of Legends so you have to aim carefully your big burst. Most ranged burst doesn't feel fair, cause you just point at the target and press the button. Skills like Rapid fire and Judgement might have animation but its not really good at giving information for the hit and you just point and hit no Sniping involved from the supposed sniper classes.Mesmer has better animation for the big chunk of damage from the rune under your feet but with all that cc in a quick succession on top of that bug with Diversion when the clones daze one after another from invisibility no less kinda ruins the point. Also it has such low CD on the burst so if the mesmererer messes up he just resets and does it again, though low CD is almost on everything now and everything is big hit skill.So if those skills were skill shots instead of guided missiles it would help the game feel more skillful. To tell you the truth you have to aim better with melee skills to hit anything then hitting anyone from range Executioner's Scythe, Death spiral, Gravedigger, Hundred blade, Maul all these skills have wind up and big animation for their damage output but there isn't any good one for ranged bursts. Even the Rock from Rampage is point and click magic homing missile with terribly small animation.

So a couple of things from this post.

  • Standard GS burst happens from melee. stealth with prestige-gs2-blink. That is the start of it. With a small semblence of map awareness you could dodge what happens next. Diversion-GS2 lands to MW +gs3+mantra of pain.If any bit of that combo is disrupted the mantra mes has literally nothing to use except to run.If this combo happens from range every GS skill's have a very very obvious tell.Mantra mes has no way to generate clones from range unless they dodge while in combat (meaning they would have alerted you to their presence before hand) or a phantasm turned into a clone. In which case you would be alerted.Everything about a mantra mirage burst or even double mantra chrono burst ( which is also a meme build) from range is completely counterable, and you have to be willfully afk to not notice it.We then come to the point. If a mirage using doublemantra meme goes into melee and misses. They have 2 dodge leaps they can escape with.That's it. they can leap for 1200 range if they blow all their endurance. Otherwise. they die.Their is no more stealth for 30sNo blink.It's hope the person is scared enough to not fight. Or is terrible at chasing.This is why it's not a real competitive build. BEcause thief,Rev,Holo, rampage war exist.Kinda like how people say fresh airweaver is a meme build but can KD and kill you, but if they miss or are interrupted they die...
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@Solori.6025 said:

@"Vancho.8750" said:I think ranged burst damaged should come from skill shots like in League of Legends so you have to aim carefully your big burst. Most ranged burst doesn't feel fair, cause you just point at the target and press the button. Skills like Rapid fire and Judgement might have animation but its not really good at giving information for the hit and you just point and hit no Sniping involved from the supposed sniper classes.Mesmer has better animation for the big chunk of damage from the rune under your feet but with all that cc in a quick succession on top of that bug with Diversion when the clones daze one after another from invisibility no less kinda ruins the point. Also it has such low CD on the burst so if the mesmererer messes up he just resets and does it again, though low CD is almost on everything now and everything is big hit skill.So if those skills were skill shots instead of guided missiles it would help the game feel more skillful. To tell you the truth you have to aim better with melee skills to hit anything then hitting anyone from range Executioner's Scythe, Death spiral, Gravedigger, Hundred blade, Maul all these skills have wind up and big animation for their damage output but there isn't any good one for ranged bursts. Even the Rock from Rampage is point and click magic homing missile with terribly small animation.

So a couple of things from this post.
  • Standard GS burst happens from melee. stealth with prestige-gs2-blink. That is the start of it. With a small semblence of map awareness you could dodge what happens next. Diversion-GS2 lands to MW +gs3+mantra of pain.If any bit of that combo is disrupted the mantra mes has literally nothing to use except to run.If this combo happens from range every GS skill's have a very very obvious tell.Mantra mes has no way to generate clones from range unless they dodge while in combat (meaning they would have alerted you to their presence before hand) or a phantasm turned into a clone. In which case you would be alerted.Everything about a mantra mirage burst or even double mantra chrono burst ( which is also a meme build) from range is completely counterable, and you have to be willfully afk to not notice it.We then come to the point. If a mirage using doublemantra meme goes into melee and misses. They have 2 dodge leaps they can escape with.That's it. they can leap for 1200 range if they blow all their endurance. Otherwise. they die.Their is no more stealth for 30sNo blink.It's hope the person is scared enough to not fight. Or is terrible at chasing.This is why it's not a real competitive build. BEcause thief,Rev,Holo, rampage war exist.Kinda like how people say fresh airweaver is a meme build but can KD and kill you, but if they miss or are interrupted they die...

These so called meme builds are pretty non meme in +1 and teamfight situations. Longbow ranger, FA ele, GS mesmer, Deadeye have their defenses and you don't have to over commit with all your skills you point click and shoot from a safe stop and do a big hit and reset till you pick of the most dangerous target. All you points are valid only when they are alone vs something like warrior, rev or thief, but their whole idea is to follow someone and shut down anything from safe location. Those builds are cheesy cause when they strike you can't do anything about it, but left alone are easy pickings, still doesn't make them fair to play against since you would't put yourself in a weak position and its pretty hard to pressure them on account of their disengage utility. The only Meme build that could be counted as such is probably Gunflame Berserker, since it is doesn't really have that good skills for running away and the only good skill on rifle is the Gunflame ( i remember when that was the only viable pvp build for berserker before the nerfs pretty stupid to go around two gunflaming people).They might be bad for the tournament, but they thrive in the chaos that is ranked since when you manage to say "kill that mes/ranger/deadeye" you are already sucking dirt.

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@Zexanima.7851

In general i would agree with your logic but not on this specific case. Power shatter mesmer has already been nerfed a lot in this past year. I think that it's in a good spot now where its still fun and rewarding to play but not overpowered or toxic.

This game will get dull really fast if you put constraints on build flexibility. As long as there is counter play to builds that go full glass or full tank, then I don't see the problem.

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@Sampson.2403 said:One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

Who here has actually played one shot mantra mes lately? I have. You literally get farmed by so many classes (especially a thief or condi mes) once they know that ur running a one shot build. And that's how it should be. Farm me or I'll farm your necros etc. - plenty of counterplay there, just dont let the mantra mes free cast. Have map awareness or get punished for not having it.

Case in point - MLGKorno farmed me yesterday so badly while i was playing mantra mes. I've never been farmed that hard b4 in a game. He just ignored my teammates and waited for me to spawn and cut me off from doing anything the entire game. He kept tabs on me like i was a Tijuana hooker. It was pretty awful and glorious at the same time. It also made me realize how much i suck. Oof.

That build Krono and others use is basically anti-burst, the timing is rough and erratic to land between Mirage cloaks/scepter evades/distort, and by the time you find a window your health is at like 5%.

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@Sampson.2403 said:One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

Who here has actually played one shot mantra mes lately? I have. You literally get farmed by so many classes (especially a thief or condi mes) once they know that ur running a one shot build. And that's how it should be. Farm me or I'll farm your necros etc. - plenty of counterplay there, just dont let the mantra mes free cast. Have map awareness or get punished for not having it.

Case in point - MLGKorno farmed me yesterday so badly while i was playing mantra mes. I've never been farmed that hard b4 in a game. He just ignored my teammates and waited for me to spawn and cut me off from doing anything the entire game. He kept tabs on me like i was a Tijuana hooker. It was pretty awful and glorious at the same time. It also made me realize how much i suck. Oof.

Psst.

That build he runs is allergic to D/P Deadeyes running mal 7. He can't put pressure on you and one backstab puts his hp to panic mode if it doesn't outright kill him. If you don't mind taking a hit to your decap potential you can disable Krono in a match w/it.

You didn't hear that from me though.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:One shot builds like mantra mes are balanced by the fact that they're not remotely viable in any competitive environment. Take away the ability to make all in builds like this then you're just removing build flexibility from the game.

Who here has actually played one shot mantra mes lately? I have. You literally get farmed by so many classes (especially a thief or condi mes) once they know that ur running a one shot build. And that's how it should be. Farm me or I'll farm your necros etc. - plenty of counterplay there, just dont let the mantra mes free cast. Have map awareness or get punished for not having it.

Case in point - MLGKorno farmed me yesterday so badly while i was playing mantra mes. I've never been farmed that hard b4 in a game. He just ignored my teammates and waited for me to spawn and cut me off from doing anything the entire game. He kept tabs on me like i was a Tijuana hooker. It was pretty awful and glorious at the same time. It also made me realize how much i suck. Oof.

Psst.

That build he runs is allergic to D/P Deadeyes running mal 7. He can't put pressure on you and one backstab puts his hp to panic mode if it doesn't outright kill him. If you don't mind taking a hit to your decap potential you can disable Krono in a match w/it.

You didn't hear that from me though.Who runs .... such bs builds? NA... ? Why even mal 7 over extra damage from quickness?

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