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Nerf Mantra Mesmers and Revenants


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@praqtos.9035 said:Who runs .... such bs builds? NA... ?Nobody runs bs builds. I'm just whispering a counter to that specific mesmer build into the wind.

Why even mal 7 over extra damage from quickness?

Because you're not using rifle, you become free to use premeditation, which gives you 6% damage boost on top of the 300 power might gen if you hit 7 stacks.Because your focus is backstab, the only telegraph presented to the opponent other than the mark is the full malice voice line/its visual.Specifically for fighting that mesmer build mentioned, you don't want quickness since its invuln chain is only rarely vulnerable. you want your only strike to down the mesmer.

It sure as hell isn't a meta build but it can break mesmers without even running Deadly arts. It's essentially old core thief with a telegraph.

If you wanna hear more about BS builds I have this Mace/Shield Sage Mallyx Herald that can beat Holosmiths/scrappers / Those annoying scepter condi mirage builds that have started to surface.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:Who runs .... such bs builds? NA... ?Nobody runs bs builds. I'm just whispering a counter to that specific mesmer build into the wind.

Why even mal 7 over extra damage from quickness?

Because you're not using rifle, you become free to use premeditation, which gives you 6% damage boost on top of the 300 power might gen if you hit 7 stacks.Because your focus is backstab, the only telegraph presented to the opponent other than the mark is the full malice voice line/its visual.Specifically for fighting that mesmer build mentioned, you don't want quickness since its invuln chain is only rarely vulnerable. you want your only strike to down the mesmer.

It sure as hell isn't a meta build but it can break mesmers without even running Deadly arts. It's essentially old core thief with a telegraph.

If you wanna hear more about BS builds I have this Mace/Shield Sage Mallyx Herald that can beat Holosmiths/scrappers / Those annoying scepter condi mirage builds that have started to surface.I have seen one renegade that running around with mallyx khalla and he is unkillable for condi builds, if you bomb him and being close when he swap legend,you are a toast and everyone who was around him xDAlso I have no clue about who are you talking about, the guy or build some person used... Some bunker ?

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:Who runs .... such bs builds? NA... ?Nobody runs bs builds. I'm just whispering a counter to that specific mesmer build into the wind.

Why even mal 7 over extra damage from quickness?

Because you're not using rifle, you become free to use premeditation, which gives you 6% damage boost on top of the 300 power might gen if you hit 7 stacks.Because your focus is backstab, the only telegraph presented to the opponent other than the mark is the full malice voice line/its visual.Specifically for fighting that mesmer build mentioned, you don't want quickness since its invuln chain is only rarely vulnerable. you want your only strike to down the mesmer.

It sure as hell isn't a meta build but it can break mesmers without even running Deadly arts. It's essentially old core thief with a telegraph.

If you wanna hear more about BS builds I have this Mace/Shield Sage Mallyx Herald that can beat Holosmiths/scrappers / Those annoying scepter condi mirage builds that have started to surface.I have seen one renegade that running around with mallyx khalla and he is unkillable for condi builds, if you bomb him and being close when he swap legend,you are a toast and everyone who was around him xDAlso I have no clue about who are you talking about, the guy or build some person used... Some bunker ?

Kronos is a pretty well known, skilled mesmer, he runs a kind of bunkery build that peppers you with condis occasionally until you die

As for that condi rev reflect build, yeahh it's super toxic to things like scourge. I've been polishing the atrocity I put together here in a drunken stupor for a few months

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:Who runs .... such bs builds? NA... ?Nobody runs bs builds. I'm just whispering a counter to that specific mesmer build into the wind.

Why even mal 7 over extra damage from quickness?

Because you're not using rifle, you become free to use premeditation, which gives you 6% damage boost on top of the 300 power might gen if you hit 7 stacks.Because your focus is backstab, the only telegraph presented to the opponent other than the mark is the full malice voice line/its visual.Specifically for fighting that mesmer build mentioned, you don't want quickness since its invuln chain is only rarely vulnerable. you want your only strike to down the mesmer.

It sure as hell isn't a meta build but it can break mesmers without even running Deadly arts. It's essentially old core thief with a telegraph.

If you wanna hear more about BS builds I have this Mace/Shield Sage Mallyx Herald that can beat Holosmiths/scrappers / Those annoying scepter condi mirage builds that have started to surface.I have seen one renegade that running around with mallyx khalla and he is unkillable for condi builds, if you bomb him and being close when he swap legend,you are a toast and everyone who was around him xDAlso I have no clue about who are you talking about, the guy or build some person used... Some bunker ?

Kronos is a pretty well known, skilled mesmer, he runs a kind of bunkery build that peppers you with condis occasionally until you die

As for that condi rev reflect build, yeahh it's super toxic to things like scourge. I've been polishing the
for a few months

Never heard about such well known mesmer :joy:Just as all NA mesmers I never knew about before someone link to their channel or something like that

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"viquing.8254" said:Not really, it need way more clic and preparation than all other burst class to do the same damage output.

I've always worried about that. People say that burst is difficult to pull off because of the above reasons, but does the ability to land a full burst combo from a safe distance/without needing to heavily weigh counterpressure unless you whiff get considered skillful simply because you have to press more buttons?

That's digression though. Let's not nerf power mesmers right now. Mantras having no telegraph is silly, but power lock as a utility is fine, and power spike has a low base damage. They still need utility given back to portal, besides.

Revenants I can take or leave. They all run shiro/glint because nobody condibombs them.

Well to give you and example : mesmer have to pop clones for burst (max F1 value is around 4k5/illusion.) and be near a target.So you have the skill who pop the clone animation (basically 2 GS.) then you see the mesmer coming near you to burst (because he can't stay melee.).To hide the "hey I move near you to burst" they have to use stealth or blink.This is the basic mesmer burst who does 10 k on 3 clic with a little preparation.

Then you have class like rev, holo or war who push 1 button then do 4 to 10k. Less combo needed, no preparation, very low animation thanks to melee + quickness. It's even worst when they start to combo hit by chaining CC/normal rotation. For example 1 clic bullcharge : 4k + 3 sec hard CC + mobility + evade. Then a 6K F1 or whirkwind. You have the same output as mesmer but way less prerequisites (And I didn"t even count the random 3k evade.). Same for rev and holo rotation : they clic, something happened, opponent is under pressure, out of burst combo, it's not really true for mesmers.

About having to press more buttons : the less buttons you have to press, the more concentration you can use on map reading/kitting, target rotation etc.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Not really, it need way more clic and preparation than all other burst class to do the same damage output.

I've always worried about that. People say that burst is difficult to pull off because of the above reasons, but does the ability to land a full burst combo from a safe distance/without needing to heavily weigh counterpressure unless you whiff get considered skillful simply because you have to press more buttons?

That's digression though. Let's not nerf power mesmers right now. Mantras having no telegraph is silly, but power lock as a utility is fine, and power spike has a low base damage. They still need utility given back to portal, besides.

Revenants I can take or leave. They all run shiro/glint because nobody condibombs them.

Well to give you and example : mesmer have to pop clones for burst (max F1 value is around 4k5/illusion.) and be near a target.So you have the skill who pop the clone animation (basically 2 GS.) then you see the mesmer coming near you to burst (because he can't stay melee.).To hide the "hey I move near you to burst" they have to use stealth or blink.This is the basic mesmer burst who does 10 k on 3 clic with a little preparation.

Then you have class like rev, holo or war who push 1 button then do 4 to 10k. Less combo needed, no preparation, very low animation thanks to melee + quickness. It's even worst when they start to combo hit by chaining CC/normal rotation. For example 1 clic bullcharge : 4k + 3 sec hard CC + mobility + evade. Then a 6K F1 or whirkwind. You have the same output as mesmer but way less prerequisites (And I didn"t even count the random 3k evade.). Same for rev and holo rotation : they clic, something happened, opponent is under pressure, out of burst combo, it's not really true for mesmers.

About having to press more buttons : the less buttons you have to press, the more concentration you can use on map reading/kitting, target rotation etc.

counting Blink/Jaunt+ f3/mantra, are 5 skills not 3

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@shadowpass.4236 said:I just fought against a double mantra mesmer, double rev duo.

There are:

  1. No animations to dodge
  2. 17 different targets on my screen
  3. They can be at 3 points simultaneously
  4. If I stop dodging I get one-shot
  5. I'm perma revealed and all of their attacks are unblockable
  6. Stability gets instantly stripped and if you don't die you can't cast any skills because of the cc chains and constant interrupts
  7. You can't run away from them
  8. No-port spots are useless

Mantras should not exist and both builds/classes both need huge damage nerfs and reworks. Matches like these are actually unplayable. There are no ways to fight against builds/comps like these and they do not require any skill to play. Unlike sic em longbow soulbeasts, there are no tells for the damage and you can't defend yourself with line of sight and terrain.

QQ T-T L2P

You’re not asking for a nerf. You’re asking for the elimination of a skill lol.....I fight mesmers all the time cause it’s a common class. Train your eyes to follow the real Mesmer and kill it. Mesmers are very squishy especially if they are running a burst build....literally all you have to do is stay on the real one and they die. Burst builds have usually 1 main burst, a backup burst, and an escape plan. Dodge a couple of bursts, learn when to keep your distance and when you engage, and when their bursts are on cooldown they die in like 5 seconds.

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Hello, here are the thoughts of a main power chrono in plat 2.•first, it's a build that requires a lot of skill : when i started playing power chrono (instead of power mirage, wich means that i was an experienced power mes) i lost 200 points of rating, and it took me more than a month to go back in plat 2, indeed this kind of build is not permissive at all.•the burst of power mes is based around stuns, wich means that simply having stab is a -50% dmg lets see if the classes that duel(wich means the classes susceptible to get +1ed) atm have a decent access to stab:-holo/scrapper 75% stab uptime-weaver 50% stab uptime-condi mirage no stab so it's a good one but who plays condi mirage atm? Noone-sb with the elite stance nerf we see more and more the shout elite, wich means a rly good stab uptime(+the stance)-war no stab vey good matchup, even in duelEvery other class have nothing to do in duels and deserve every os they will get by trying to duel.•having stab or prot or aegis means no os for the mes, wich means that in nearly any case a mes can os in a teamfight situation(if the target is already pressured every +1 can get the kill, it has nothing to do with power mes)•if u have a bit of map awarness u should see th mesmer coming and this even b4 the 3 sec of prestige. If no stealth the burst is super obvious, if stealth u have to count to 2,5 sec and dodge. If u do''t see a +1 coming then u misplayed. It's a fair trade : if u misplay u die, if a power chrono misplays he is pretty much dead•i think that mantra mes benefits from one thing : since it's bad, it's only played by some rare ppl so a lot of players have no idea about the animations and counterplays of this build•i think that a lot of mantra mes will agree : most of the players of this build(except the ppl that play that once a month or just because they got os and think it's an op and ez build, thoose get farmed) are ppl that have played a lot in pvp and are bored of that permissive meta(from passives and huge defensive capabilities) and who want to play something that feels like pre-hot gw2 which is not braindead. Thoose ppl are nearly always confirmed players who are above the average pvp player and is able to deal with a non permissive buildTo conclude it's a build that requires skills, that is not that hard to counterplay if u know what your playing against.

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@Hylo.1968 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? ?

I think he is referring to the rotation where if you have self-deception, you use jaunt to get a second clone for a 2 clone mind wrack instead of 1. However, this is not possible with chrono (you can use continuum split in the rotation instead), and he is leaving out your mantras which also need to be clicked in the most 'bursty' builds and at take up skill slots.

However, additionally, most people don't realize if you do the EXACT same thing the entire PvP match, you are likely not to be very successful. You want to avoid being too predictable in PvP matches.

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@"viquing.8254" said:Can mesmers have 30 sec vigor uptime like holo and thieves please, or little less like SlB, thanks.Ironically.... all three classes you mentioned have traits that boost their endurance gain even further and stacks with vigor. But they still scream : mesma perma evades !111

It's pretty wild.

Just look at tools: Optimized Activation: Toolbelt Skills grant 2s of vigor. Excessive Energy, 10% increased damage while under the effects of vigor (Jawgeous was flipping his shit about 1.5s of vigor per shatter which granted 150 bonus condition damage under vigor for mirages and everyone on the forums were nodding their heads in agreement) Adrenal Implant, just flat 50% higher endurance regeneration. Stacks with vigor.

And of course Alchemy: When you gain swiftness, you also gain vigor. 5s duration. 5 second internal cooldown so potentially 100% uptime. Holo Leap is literally capable of providing permanent vigor up time on it's own.

And heck Spellbreaker might be the most ridiculous dodger outside of thief itself. Just check out

. If you watch when Trama first engages in sustained combat he does 12 dodge rolls (Not counting bull's rushes or whirlwind blades. Pure dodge rolls) in 50 seconds. That's a dodge roll every 4 seconds. Base dodge rolling without vigor or pure endurance regeneration is once every 10 seconds. And he's not even spamming dodge when his endurance fills up when his endurance fills up. That's him showing restraint and deliberately timing. If he really wanted to he could have done even more.

And that's just Building Momentum (15 Endurance on Burst Skill), Might Makes Right (Health and 2 Endurance when you Gain Might), Magebane Tether, and Signet of Stamina. He also doesn't take Energy Sigils or Adventure Runes to burst his endurance. That's nearly double the freaking evade frames up time than Mirage had back when it had 1s Mirage Cloak for crying out loud. And no one bats an eye.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"viquing.8254" said:Can mesmers have 30 sec vigor uptime like holo and thieves please, or little less like SlB, thanks.Ironically.... all three classes you mentioned have traits that boost their endurance gain even further and stacks with vigor. But they still scream : mesma perma evades !111

It's pretty wild.

Just look at tools: Optimized Activation: Toolbelt Skills grant 2s of vigor. Excessive Energy, 10% increased damage while under the effects of vigor (Jawgeous was flipping his kitten about 150 bonus condition damage under vigor for mirages and everyone on the forums were nodding their heads in agreement) Adrenal Implant, just flat 50% higher endurance regeneration. Stacks with vigor.

And of course Alchemy: When you gain swiftness, you also gain vigor. 5s duration. 5 second internal cooldown so potentially 100% uptime. Holo Leap is literally capable of providing permanent vigor up time on it's own.

And heck Spellbreaker might be the most ridiculous dodger outside of thief itself. Just check out
. If you watch when Trama first engages in sustained combat he does 12 dodge rolls (Not counting bull's rushes or whirlwind blades. Pure dodge rolls) in 50 seconds. That's a dodge roll every 4 seconds. And he's not even spamming dodge when his endurance fills up when his endurance fills up. That's him showing restraint and deliberately timing. If he really wanted to he could have done even more.

And that's just Building Momentum (15 Endurance on Burst Skill), Might Makes Right (Health and 2 Endurance when you Gain Might), Magebane Tether, and Signet of Stamina. That's nearly double the freaking evade frames up time than Mirage had back when it had 1s Mirage Cloak for crying out loud. And no one bats an eye.I think this deserves a separate thread about perma vigor/evade spam. Thieves get 8s vigor on 1s icd and its boosted by another trait,how about that ?:D
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@Hylo.1968 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? ?

......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.

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@Solori.6025 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? ?

......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.

wasting cds to burst just for a clone... just no

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@Hylo.1968 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? ?

......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.

wasting cds to burst just for a clone... just no

it's not predictable at all

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@Hylo.1968 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? ?

......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.

wasting cds to burst just for a clone... just no

it's not predictable at all

Sorry, you are wrong. Yes, it is. Mirror Blade takes 3/4 sec to channel and makes a huge animation where the mesmer lifts the sword all the way up to their head and then brings it down. By the time you finish with the rest of the combo, you are looking at over a second. I know 1.5 seconds or so doesn't seem like very much to expect your opponent not to move at all, but believe me, it isn't. That is why it is extremely important to try to cover up part of the burst time. You NEED to try to shorten that time up, or at least part of your opponents knowledge of that time. Almost all PvE content has activation times shorter than this that the game expects you to be able to dodge. Is it possible that your opponent doesn't dodge? Yes. However, against good opponents you can't expect them to wait for you to press 7 buttons before they press 1 dodge button without trying to 'cover up' your actions or make it less predictable. It is not going to happen. Additionally, if they do dodge your mirror blade, you are in for a huge world of hurt that I will explain below.

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@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:I've never liked the idea of mantras, at least the ones that do damage. Inherently uncompetitive. The interrupt is fine but not with damage from Power Block.

The Top Row traits on Chronomancer provides ridiculous damage and need serious nerfs.

Power Block is a very balanced trait, the dmg is not high enough to be even near as broken. The only traits need a nerf because they are op in their effects and make Mantra of Distraction rewarding even when only random spammed without interrupting or only interrupting autoattacks are CI and Lost Time. Mantra of Distraction with Powerblock is balanced and only rewards mindful interrupts on more than only autoattacks enough to be worth taking.In fact power block is bugged now, its cant crit/apply weakness on 3s cd as if its PVE. If you want to nerf LT, then nerf to hell LROD ele as well as it does twice as much damage.You are pretty much complain about the only good traits left for mesmer :) (cant say CI is not annoying to get immobed but its also in no damage traitline as well)They could rework GS since its in terrible state and has only 1 use -> combo shatter since 2012

Lightning Rod hits harder because it doesn't block people out of skills for 15s...

Leave mah Tempest alone, we dont need to be nerfed.

(I dont think mes needs nerf either, but nerf tempest comments trigger my jimmies)

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@Hylo.1968 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? ?

......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.

wasting cds to burst just for a clone... just no

Against good opponents, you need to cover your burst or make sure they don't know of you. If you do this, you are using basically all your good great sword skills, your whole secondary off hand weapon since torch since phantasmal mage is a condi skill, your 'special action' keys that come with your profession, and 2 of your utility skills.

At this point, if your opponent dodges most of the damage, you are already at a HUGE cool down disadvantage to the point where you need to know you can fully outplay them or simply move on to a different spot on the map. You are already at a massive cool down disadvantage and know the opponent is at the very least going to control the point until your cool downs come back again, giving the other team points.

This is why using one of your Jaunts has been used to gain an extra clone in mirage burst builds.There are even guides posted on youtube showing this strategy.(disclaimer: the focus build shorts used is NOT a burst build)

The reason is simple, at that point, its better to take the risk. Unless they are low on health or cool downs to begin with, you are likely not going to kill them without using an additional clone in your burst. The reason is simple: on one clone mind wrack, the clone does 306 damage if it explodes on you. In a two clone mind wrack, each clone does 426 damage, and there are two of them. 306 is much smaller than 852.

What is actually more of a disadvantage in this situation isn't that you are using another cool down. It is that you are adding at least 1/2 a second to your burst since jaunt has a 1/2 sec activation time alone. This is just another reason why you either have to cover your burst or make sure the opponent doesn't know you are there because if they do dodge, they now DO know you are there and they have a massive advantage on you in terms of cool downs.

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@Xstein.2187 said:

@Sampson.2403 said:Technically the full burstis 9 cooldowns which is why it's a total bummer if you miss it:

The Prestige -> Blink -> Mirror Blade -> Diversion -> Power Spike-> Jaunt -> Mind Wrack -> Mind Stab

not every build uses torch off hand, also why would you use jaunt after blink? ?

......for the clone. ....and not using torch means this build is as predictable as a GS warrior.

wasting cds to burst just for a clone... just no

Against good opponents, you need to cover your burst or make sure they don't know of you. If you do this, you are using basically all your good great sword skills, your whole secondary off hand weapon since torch since phantasmal mage is a condi skill, your 'special action' keys that come with your profession, and 2 of your utility skills.

At this point, if your opponent dodges most of the damage, you are already at a
HUGE
cool down disadvantage to the point where you need to know you can fully outplay them or simply move on to a different spot on the map. You are already at a massive cool down disadvantage and know the opponent is at the very least going to control the point until your cool downs come back again, giving the other team points.

This is why using one of your Jaunts has been used to gain an extra clone in mirage burst builds.There are even guides posted on youtube showing this strategy.(disclaimer: the focus build shorts used is NOT a burst build)

The reason is simple, at that point, its better to take the risk. Unless they are low on health or cool downs to begin with, you are likely not going to kill them without using an additional clone in your burst. The reason is simple: on one clone mind wrack, the clone does 306 damage if it explodes on you. In a two clone mind wrack, each clone does 426 damage, and there are two of them. 306 is much smaller than 852.

What is actually more of a disadvantage in this situation isn't that you are using another cool down. It is that you are adding at least 1/2 a second to your burst since jaunt has a 1/2 sec activation time alone. This is just another reason why you either have to cover your burst or make sure the opponent doesn't know you are there because if they do dodge, they now DO know you are there and they have a massive advantage on you in terms of cool downs.

Thank you for explaining this, cause I wasn't. I was just going to link video guides and tell him/her to self educate. Especially if they are going to give an opinion about a subject they ( now obviously) don't know about.

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