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Is WvW more PvE or PvP?


Whiteout.1975

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Whiteout.1975 said:I'm talking which take's priority in your opinion as it stands; when comparing PvP vs PvE inside of WvW. Please add (if able) your input as to why you feel that way based on your choice. I'll also be asking some
other
(outside the title) questions to think about; to add more flavor to this discussion. However, feel free on whether or not you wish to answer them.

WvW is suppose to be this: "WvW is first and foremost, a Player vs. Player game-mode. You are rewarded with both loot and Points-Per-Kill (PPK) for killing enemy players." (Taken from "Combat" section via
)

Given that to be the intention... How well does WvW meet this intention? Do PvE element's devalue/take away from this intention in any way?... Instead of helping it stand out.

I'm also asking because WvW has seen an okay-ish amount of changes over the years... Some drastic... Some not so much.Though, for those who do not know... It's been saying this on the Wiki for
years
. However, obviously by stating "
first and foremost
". The Wiki attempts to make a strong statement regarding PvP as WvW's primary at least over PvE. Is PvP still "primary" though? Also, is this statement still as "strong" now vs the past (years ago)?

Does WvW borrow enough element's from PvP itself to stand strong over PvE like it's meant to?... Or do you find it easier/ a lot easier to identify with PvE qualities/values while inside WvW?

Lastly, for the people who want me to add more options (as it always seems to happen with every poll ?)... Respectfully... No. I want to keep this simple and to the point. Thanks <3

?

"World versus World (also known as WvW) is a combination Player versus Player/Player versus Environment game mode where players from three different worlds (which can involve 6+ servers), battle in the Mists. It features open-world combat on five large maps with up to several dozen players per map. In World versus World, players can besiege objectives such as Keeps and Towers with siege weapons, and battle over resources, as well as complete other PvE-type content to win World Experience for themselves."

Ah, Good Evening @Swagger.1459 :)

I'm not sure how to respond to be honest because I don't understand the question. Perhaps you're simply making the statement WvW is both PvP and PvE? or that WvW more PvE because this: "as well as complete other PvE-type content to win World Experience for themselves". I don't know ?‍
♂️

Are you not bothering to read the direct quote from the same wiki page you linked?

What does this mean? "Does WvW borrow enough element's from PvP"... Like, seriously, what are you talking about?

Are you not aware that WvW is a Realm vs Realm Player vs Player mode inspired by Dark Age of Camelot? Realm v Realm is Player vs Player combat mode designed for mass combat to occur, and of course has a number of other elements to it...

oh @Swagger.1459 lol... of course I read that :)

I'm talking about a variety of things :# . "Elements" as in characteristics. That go off of both PvE and PvP in respect to GW2... Not Dark Age of Camelot, Halo, Call of Duty etc. Just GW2.

Based on their (the people voting) perspective. Just wondering if WvW leans more PvE or PvP in peoples opinion or towards other options presented.

I'm aware especially after about the 20th time I've seen you link that over time. Though, WvW != Dark Age of Camelot... And WvW as grown more in respect to GW2 and it's overall gaming environment IMO. So I'm asking the title question in respect to GW2.... I mean I was born of my mother and father (like most)... Does that suddenly at least make me my dad lol?

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@Swagger.1459 said:@"Whiteout.1975"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realm_versus_Realm

“Realm versus Realm (RvR) is a type of Player versus Player gameplay in Massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPG) where the player base is divided over multiple preset realms that fight each other over game assets.”

Okay... And? If helps any, I never said it wasn't ?‍♂️

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@Whiteout.1975 said:

“Realm versus Realm (RvR) is a type of Player versus Player gameplay in Massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPG) where the player base is divided over multiple preset realms that fight each other over game assets.”

Okay... And? If helps any, I never said it wasn't ?‍
♂️

Then what’s the point of this poll? Is wvw not a pvp mode?

And for the 3rd time... What is this supposed to mean??? “Does WvW borrow enough element’s from PvP...” like what elements from PvP is this RvR mode missing?

Edit- This is the basis for the poll and line of questions... Is "WvW is first and foremost, a Player vs. Player game-mode."?... But again, is wvw not a pvp mode?

Edit 2- How would you respond to me if I made a thread in the raid section asking if Raids were PvE enough?

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@zinkz.7045 said:

What about let's say... the jump puzzle's in WvW?

They were there to create fights, early in the game they were quite popular (I can't remember what was in the chest that people once wanted)

Chance for a precursor, though I did all 3 borderlands each day in the first 3 months of the game because you got siege blueprints and those were RARE in the early days when people didn't have gold to buy them from a vendor and all people seemed to have were from npc drops in wvw.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

“Realm versus Realm (RvR) is a type of Player versus Player gameplay in Massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPG) where the player base is divided over multiple preset realms that fight each other over game assets.”

Okay... And? If helps any, I never said it wasn't ?‍
♂️

Then what’s the point of this poll? Is wvw not a pvp mode?

And for the 3rd time... What is this supposed to mean??? “Does WvW borrow enough element’s from PvP...” like what elements from PvP is this RvR mode missing?

(Edit) had fix an important typo lolI've already answered both of these.

The point of the poll is to see which (PvP or PvE) people feel and/or understand WvW to lean based on their perspective. While also seeing if PvP is overshadowed in anyway through what PvE content exist... While in the process stating (like I said) where you feel WvW lies in regards to the two. Being more/less etc. given the poll options.

I'm gonna make it real simple... The main question states this: "Is WvW more PvE or PvP?" Nowhere in that question and furthermore the body of the OP do I ever say or suggest WvW does not contain PvP... OR PvE.

  • When I originally replied it was shortly after you edited the post to actually ask a direct question to me. When you edited during my time of replying... I tried to answer your (new to me) question after then seeing the question.

Though, instead of answering again. For now let me put it like this...

  • For a long time reward tracks did not exist in WvW... They existed in PvP for far longer. This has little to do with actually fighting PvP, but rather outright participation, yet still it's an element of PvP and is now of WvW. Same thing when legendary gear came out. What you wish to bring up is up to you as much as anyone else... However, the reason I bring up this example is because I'm suggesting the possibility that WvW still does not share enough characteristics with PvP like it once did not in the past.

  • "like what elements from PvP is this RvR mode missing?" - That's up for you to decide too based on your opinion and what I would like to find out within the context of the original question "Is WvW more PvE or PvP".

To answer your question directed at me... IMO PvP, for starter's, offer's a "ranked" and "unranked" means of playing it. Also, IMO... WvW lacks a lot of drive to do good/win... I've seen a lot of players quit because of that ultimately. However, all feelings aside... I get it. I would like a more competitive option for WvW in the future. You have the more casual side and then side that's more competitive. Though, if I go any further this will turn into a new discussion so I'll just leave as that.

Another big one for me is the simplicity (Not talking amulet system)... The mere simplicity of gearing up/switching gear that PvP has over WvW. I couldn't even get some of my PvP friends to WvW hardly just based on that alone. However, I hear build templates are coming out so I'll save any further commenting here, regarding that, till that happens.

The last thing I'm gonna say on why I feel this way regarding your question. Is I can't think of 1 time where WvW later took on a new trait (new to WvW) from PvP and it went nearly or completely sour. Now, I'm not saying that's not possible for that to happen... Though, this is in part why I want to see what people have to say as a whole. To see how other people view the mode based on the main question :+1:

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@"Swagger.1459" said:Edit- This is the basis for the poll and line of questions... Is "WvW is first and foremost, a Player vs. Player game-mode."?... But again, is wvw not a pvp mode?

Edit 2- How would you respond to me if I made a thread in the raid section asking if Raids were PvE enough?

So I'm about to take off for awhile. The first edit I went ahead and answered before.

Regarding the second edit...Depends on the context of the question. Does the OP have a reason to show interest/concern on what's being asked? Do I myself have interest/concern? (though apparently I'm responding here so I do in this scenario lol)Then I would just try to have peaceful/respectful discussion in general... Try that way out and see how that goes. Then if it deviates from that path I'll decide what I feel is reasonably fair from that point on :+1:

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@Whiteout.1975 said:

“Realm versus Realm (RvR) is a type of Player versus Player gameplay in Massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPG) where the player base is divided over multiple preset realms that fight each other over game assets.”

Okay... And? If helps any, I never said it wasn't ?‍
♂️

Then what’s the point of this poll? Is wvw not a pvp mode?

And for the 3rd time... What is this supposed to mean??? “Does WvW borrow enough element’s from PvP...” like what elements from PvP is this RvR mode missing?

I've already answered both of these.

The point of the poll is to see which (PvE or PvE) people feel and/or understand WvW to lean based on their perspective. While also seeing if PvP is overshadowed in anyway through what PvE content exist... While in the process stating (like I said) where you feel WvW lies in regards to the two. Being more/less etc. given the poll options.

I'm gonna make it real simple... The main question states this: "Is WvW more PvE or PvP?" Nowhere in that question and furthermore the body of the OP do I ever say or suggest WvW does not contain PvP... OR PvE.
  • When I originally replied it was shortly after you edited the post to actually ask a direct question to me. When you edited during my time of replying... I tried to answer your (new to me) question after then seeing the question.

Though, instead of answering again. For now let me put it like this...
  • For a long time reward tracks did not exist in WvW... They existed in PvP for far longer. This has little to do with actually fighting PvP, but rather outright participation, yet still it's an element of PvP and is now of WvW. Same thing when legendary gear came out. What you wish to bring up is up to you as much as anyone else... However, the reason I bring up this example is because I'm suggesting the possibility that WvW still does not share enough characteristics with PvP like it once
    did not
    in the past.
  • "like what elements from PvP is this RvR mode missing?" - That's up for you to decide too based on your opinion and what I would like to find out within the context of the original question "Is WvW more PvE or PvP".

To answer your question directed at me... IMO PvP, for starter's, offer's a "ranked" and "unranked" means of playing it. Also, IMO... WvW lacks a lot of drive to do good/win... I've seen a lot of players quit because of that ultimately. However, all feelings aside... I get it. I would like a more competitive option for WvW in the future. You have the more casual side and then side that's more competitive. Though, if I go any further this will turn into a new discussion so I'll just leave as that.

Another big one for me is the simplicity (Not talking amulet system)... The mere simplicity of gearing up/switching gear that PvP has over WvW. I couldn't even get some of my PvP friends to WvW hardly just based on that alone. However, I hear build templates are coming out so I'll save any further commenting here, regarding that, till that happens.

The last thing I'm gonna say on why I feel this way regarding your question. Is I can't think of 1 time where WvW later took on a new trait (new to WvW) from PvP and it went nearly or completely sour. Now, I'm not saying that's not possible for that to happen... Though, this is in part why I want to see what people have to say as a whole. To see how other people view the mode based on the main question :+1:

WvW is an “open world” RvR pvp mode inspired by...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Camelot

“Dark Age of Camelot (DAoC) is a 3D medieval fantasy MMORPG, released on October 10, 2001 in North America and in Europe shortly after through its partner GOA. The game combines Arthurian lore, Norse mythology and Irish Celtic legends with a dash of high fantasy. It is set in the period after King Arthur's death and his kingdom has split into three parts which are in a constant state of war with each other. DAoC includes both Player versus Environment (PvE) and Realm versus Realm (RvR) combat.”

WvW is not a “made for e-sports” structured pvp mode...

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-08-02-guild-wars-2-you-will-never-be-at-a-statistical-disadvantage-when-playing-pvp

“Guild Wars 1 attracted dedicated PVP fans as a result, and ArenaNet wants the same to be true of Guild Wars 2. The hope is that there will even be professional Guild Wars 2 players and a bustling eSports scene around the game.

[eSports mechanics have] been a concern the entire time PVP has been in development," the ArenaNet duo added, "as far back as day one, meeting one.

We've learned a lot from watching other eSports (walk through the design room on any given day and you will see eSport streams running), and having combined that with the lessons we learned from the original Guild Wars, we tried to balance spectator, announcer, and player needs.

We wanted it to be easy to get into, but we also wanted a skill gap that would allow pro players to show their mastery. In addition to this, we wanted to make sure the game was exciting from a spectator's standpoint, while ensuring that announcers easily understand the action well enough to communicate to the spectators.

The global PC gaming community decides which games are played at the highest levels," Sharp and Corpening added, "be it FPS, RTS, fighter, or MOBA. Guild Wars 2 combines aspects of those games, so we hope that players enjoy it, both as players and as spectators.”

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Imo, wvw is not pve. Its tactical pvp in a large scale lead by experienced commander.. It isnt the conventional pvp as conventional pvp match is short and score/ratings are given after short match.. in wvw any players can join and be ranged from hardcore to casual.. match are long.And its server vs server. :p thats how i understand it as

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@Whiteout.1975 said:

@enkidu.5937 said:Heavily depends on the current time and map coverage / linking. If there are no enemies, you'd have to "PvE" or log off. If at prime time you'd always have to fight players, even if you only want to do objectives.

For the wiki part: the wiki is written by players. The official statement from Anet webside is:"WvW is large scale PvP warfare the way its meant to be."

@Whiteout.1975 said:Do PvE element's devalue/take away from this intention in any way?No. As Anet stated its meant to be warfare. And warfare doesnt mean "solely PvP fights", it also includes objectives, supply control, intelligence etc. Its the same as for sPvP, or other games like LoL etc. NPCs that guard objectives are just gap fillers, primarily to delay the capping progress, its not meant to be a challenge, thus I wouldn't really call that PvE.

Real PvE content would be the Harpyries, Worm, Warg, not sure why this is implemented in WvW, but it doesn't make a significant proportion.

Would be nice to know if Anet disagree's with the player's then with how they listed it on the wiki.

I agree that it shouldn't be "solely PvP fight's". I'm just wondering really if PvP borrows enough element's from actual PvP to make that claim respectfully. OR is it simply the fact that you can kill players that dictates it as PvP in that regard? Is that how it's "meant" to be?

Not sure if I understand this right. PvP warfare doesnt even require fights with players face to face. You can even win a war with just outsmart the enemy, cut him off from supplies etc.

On the other hand, there are players that are just not interested in this kind of warfare. They rather would love to GvG in a fight arena instead. So I wouldn't ask "How much % face-to face fights does WvW need to make in PvP?" I would ask the other way around instead:

"How much can one deny PvE* and still call it "warfare"?"

(*) in terms of objective sniping, outsmarting supperior enemy forces, cutting them off from supply etc.

True, but then wouldn't it just be called "warfare" instead of "PvP warfare"?

Personally, I would say PvE should be denied at least to the point to where it doesn't overshadow the value of PvP inside "PvP warefare".I can agree to that. :)

As I said in my initial post, during off-hours its just PvE (because there are not enough enemies). And of course, this devalues both, PvP fights and warfare. But for me its not the content itself, which devalues the PvP experience, its the low coverage. I just wouldnt call every non-face to face content "PvE". If I outsmart enemies and e. g. steal objectives from them without a face-to face fights, thats not PvE for me, its PvP warfare.

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@Whiteout.1975 said:

@zinkz.7045 said:There aren't really any PvE elements, so the poll does not make much sense., The 'v' in PvP stands for versus which means competing against, competing against entails more than simply combat.

Look at sPvP for example and the Lord on Foefire that isn't PvE, that is there to force fights, to up the rather mediocre skillcap of combat in this game by adding map awareness, strategy, communication, etc and to provide a comeback mechanic.

The same goes for WvW the NPC lords aren't in objectives for PvE they are there to delay the capture of the objective to give time for the other side to get there and create a fight.

What about let's say... the jump puzzle's in WvW?

They were there to create fights, early in the game they were quite popular (I can't remember what was in the chest that people once wanted), remember Teldo knocking people off to their death with his flamethrower on his streams? Or maybe you have not played since the start so have only witnessed them as basically dead content (or "PvE")?

(I started playing GW2 in late 2012)If that was their intention then cool. However, in my experience that's not how I saw it ever play out. I really only ever seen people rage quit or eventually they would because someone knocked them off lol. Or screwed up their process of jumping from point A to point B... Same difference. That said I don't know who Teldo is... Let's say I knew who Helseth was though. Though, ether way it's just dead PvE content to me. I don't view them as necessary now or then to create a fight... More of a nuisance to WvW IMO if I'm being honest. However, I respect the intention if that's what it was.

Well I agree jump puzzles are pretty useless now, though I guess they could change that by putting something valuable in the chest again. But then I also guess even if they did that, the population is no longer there to support any real level of activity in there any longer.

The problem with WvW when it comes to "PvE" is not alleged "PvE elements" which are largely just objectives or mechanisms to facilitate "PvP", the problem is the game mode is a joke competitively. Both in terms of population/coverage and "fighting" (skill/experience/attitude), it also has map design that does not force encounters enough, lacks a mechanism to encourage the two weaker servers to attack the stronger server and provides no real reason to even care about winning.

Which is why most of us who actually want decent PvP either completely stopped or reduced our WvW play time to the occasional session of screwing about and went to play PvP games instead. Which basically leaves PvE players, including the clowns who claim they are still playing for the "fights".

As for Teldo, he was a PvP player in what was the most notable PvP team for the first two years of the game (Team Paradigm) before they quit and was GW2's highest viewed streamer back then. Of course that was back at a time when lots of people streamed roaming in WvW before it declined to the pitiful state it has been the last few years.

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