Balance is terrible.I don't think mesmer are treated fairly

[nthmetal.9652]

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:My idea about this for Mirage.

1) Remove that largely useless trait that makes clones into mirrors on one shatter only.2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.3) In addition to the current functions of Mirrors (trigger Mirage Cloak when Mirage touches it) add the following function to Mirage Mirrors;Enemies that touch the mirror take [whatever current single clone F1 shatter damage is] damage and gain 3 stacks of Confusion (3 second duration), this will not grant the Mirage the Dune Cloak effect.

In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

The problem with that approach is, that all the other traitlines would need a major rework then, too. We have just recently had trait changes, which target a single shatter skill instead of all of them. They would suddenly be useless to Mirage leading to even more dead traits, if they are not reworked.I'd love to see different shatters for core / mirage / chrono, but it would be a big rework. On the other hand, such a rework is necessary anyway to get rid of dead traits. So it could be done at the same time.

[Obtena.7952]

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ansau.7326 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game.Just as they listen players as well but "convince yourself whatever you want".including the 'common sense' evidence.Its not when its comes to balance mesmer/thief

That's just salt ... regardless, it's clear how Anet balances and it's not based on who QQ's the most. That's just ridiculous. If the class doesn't work for you in PVP, you have choices. Nothing says you have to stick to a class you aren't good with.

How wrong you are.

• Hundreds of posts crying about phantasms = let's nerf 50% damage of 2 phantasms doing 3k damage in 3s, and nerf burning coz 3 stacks every 30s is too much.
• Hundreds of posts crying about boonshare = boon traits getting nerfed beyond useless.
• Hundreds of posts crying about EM = In Gw1 we got Smiter's Booned, in Gw2 nerfs get EM'ed.
• Hundreds of posts crying about Mirage dodge = Mirage Cloak being nerfed and vigor uptime becoming a joke.
• Hundreds of posts crying about condis = Let's put 5-6 hard condi nerfs at the same time so forum mods can breathe.
• Hundreds of posts crying about Confusing Images = Confusing Images gets 50% damage nerf even if was far from being highest damage skill.

Meanwhile, Revs have broken hammer damage and daredevils have perma evade build for 3.5 years while Soulbeast and Holo have broken damage paired with broken passive sustain for 1.5 years. Working as intended bois.

Everybody else does +7k in single hits, no problem. Mesmer does it in a 7 hit, +2s channel skill, NERF THAT KITTEN YOU CRAZY DEVS BREAKING DIS GAAAME!!!!PD: And it gets nerfed.

Crying posts are simply coincidental. There are LOTS of changes that are NOT related to players complaints. Anet has a vision. They implement it. 1000's of complaints, a handful of them are bound to be inline with that vision. You're own post PROVES it ... if Anet is changing the game based on crying posts, why are things in the game that people still crying about? That makes no sense.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

They took whining side as their way of balance. Just as F3->became stun was @"Lincolnbeard.1735" idea.All nerfs on mesmer were brought by players complaining all around, calling themselves knowledgable community, rofl. "Nerf this thing and mirage is perfect!" and this repeated itself all the time they got nerfed thing they wanted, torch, jaunt, signet of midnight, illusionary ambush, confusion, portal, axe ambush, mirage evade. Dont believe me? Look for the threads on your own if you want

Convince yourself whatever you want. There is lots of evidence to suggest that Anet balanced to their vision of the game, including the 'common sense' evidence that suggests there is no reason to appeal to QQ on the forums in the first place. If Mirage doesn't work for you in PVP, you have other choices. Not all especs excel in every game mode. In fact most especs only excel in ONE game mode. I see no reason for Mirage to be any different. While I don't suggest Anet shouldn't try to make especs work well in all game modes, I would suggest that it's not a requirement for them to do so.

Hi what are you going on? Why do you favor yourself?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/74493/the-reasons-berserker-fails/p1

Can you rephrase your question? I got no idea what you are rambling about.

[Opopanax.1803]

@Mikkel.8427 said:I haven't posted on here in a really long time because I just haven't had a lot of time to play in the last year.BUT Mesmer balance is completely ridiculous... It feels like I'm playing flaming garbage. EVERYTHING has been nerfed to the point that I may as well not even select traits. Mirage feels even worse than it felt at launch... I can close my eyes and faceroll my keys on my Warrior and have more success (which I guess isn't saying much, its almost always been that way...) No sustained... No damage... meh mobility especially now that everyone has mounts.I have a character of every prof and have played their elites... but when I want to relax with my limited time I usually want to create beautiful butterfly explosions. I don't think its unreasonable to expect Anet to make REASONABLE and INCREMENTAL balance changes when something is overperforming...

I'd usually make suggestions about what needs to be adjusted, but its EVERYTHING./rant

Don't get this sentiment. Mesmer is very slippery and has incredible survivability, at least Mirage. That's one of the reasons I love it.

[ZeteCommander.4937]

@nthmetal.9652 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:My idea about this for Mirage.

1) Remove that largely useless trait that makes clones into mirrors on one shatter only.2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.3) In addition to the current functions of Mirrors (trigger Mirage Cloak when Mirage touches it) add the following function to Mirage Mirrors;Enemies that touch the mirror take [whatever current single clone F1 shatter damage is] damage and gain 3 stacks of Confusion (3 second duration), this will not grant the Mirage the Dune Cloak effect.

In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

The problem with that approach is, that all the other traitlines would need a major rework then, too. We have just recently had trait changes, which target a single shatter skill instead of all of them. They would suddenly be useless to Mirage leading to even more dead traits, if they are not reworked.I'd love to see different shatters for core / mirage / chrono, but it would be a big rework. On the other hand, such a rework is necessary anyway to get rid of dead traits. So it could be done at the same time.

Undoubtedly, Redesign is the best choice.Most trait are broken that are numerous bandage on them and The wound below has rotted.

[Mikkel.8427]

@Opopanax.1803 said:Don't get this sentiment. Mesmer is very slippery and has incredible survivability, at least Mirage. That's one of the reasons I love it.

I've been playing Daredevil instead. Which is more slippery... has better survivability... and better damage. Which is sad, because I don't believe Thief is doing all that great either.

[Yoci.2481]

So frustrating. It feels like almost every profession has a better roaming build (often more than one) than mesmer. It's not fun any more. Maybe I should play a different game.

[Burnfall.9573]

@ZeteCommander.4937 said:

@nthmetal.9652 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:My idea about this for Mirage.

1) Remove that largely useless trait that makes clones into mirrors on one shatter only.2) Remove F2 to F4 shatters. F1 Shatter gets 10 second cooldown and changes to the following functionality/tooltip;

Image Conversion: 10 second recharge;Convert your clones where they stand, changing them into Mirage Mirrors. Clones transformed this way do not do shatter damage or move to the target before converting.3) In addition to the current functions of Mirrors (trigger Mirage Cloak when Mirage touches it) add the following function to Mirage Mirrors;Enemies that touch the mirror take [whatever current single clone F1 shatter damage is] damage and gain 3 stacks of Confusion (3 second duration), this will not grant the Mirage the Dune Cloak effect.

In short, get more Dune Cloak and Ambush uptime in PvE, but in WvW / PvP, your opponents get to make a choice; prevent your extra dodges and ambush attacks OR take damage to deny you them. Or, try to force you to move away from the mirrors to chase them.

The problem with that approach is, that all the other traitlines would need a major rework then, too. We have just recently had trait changes, which target a single shatter skill instead of all of them. They would suddenly be useless to Mirage leading to even more dead traits, if they are not reworked.I'd love to see different shatters for core / mirage / chrono, but it would be a big rework. On the other hand, such a rework is necessary anyway to get rid of dead traits. So it could be done at the same time.

Undoubtedly, Redesign is the best choice.Most trait are broken that are numerous bandage on them and The wound below has rotted.

+1 to redesign Mesmer

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Although I would like a redesign, preferably one that gets rid of clones and phantasms so baddies can't qq about clutter, it's not going to happen, from here on its all downhill.And just imagine all qq if mesmer was redesign "it's que second redesign mesmer gets and profession X got none, ANet's favourite child yadda yadda"

[praqtos.9035]

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Although I would like a redesign, preferably one that gets rid of clones and phantasms so baddies can't qq about clutter, it's not going to happen, from here on its all downhill.And just imagine all qq if mesmer was redesign "it's que second redesign mesmer gets and profession X got none, ANet's favourite child yadda yadda"More over this will nullify their past rework. Also this would be a complete class rework. Many people would be displeased or whatnot because they bought the game with a class with a clones and butterflies, meanwhile anet made it that way where 90% of playerbase suck against it competitive modes,so mesmer players are highly displeased too with all complaints around

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:Although I would like a redesign, preferably one that gets rid of clones and phantasms so baddies can't qq about clutter, it's not going to happen, from here on its all downhill.And just imagine all qq if mesmer was redesign "it's que second redesign mesmer gets and profession X got none, ANet's favourite child yadda yadda"More over this will nullify their past rework. Also this would be a complete class rework. Many people would be displeased or whatnot because they bought the game with a class with a clones and butterflies, meanwhile anet made it that way where 90% of playerbase suck against it competitive modes,so mesmer players are highly displeased too with all complaints around

Can only speak for myself. Would prefer mesmer without clones and phantasms, a mechanic that only cripples mesmers themselves. Need 3 clones alive to hit as much as other professions pressing a button.

[praqtos.9035]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Although I would like a redesign, preferably one that gets rid of clones and phantasms so baddies can't qq about clutter, it's not going to happen, from here on its all downhill.And just imagine all qq if mesmer was redesign "it's que second redesign mesmer gets and profession X got none, ANet's favourite child yadda yadda"More over this will nullify their past rework. Also this would be a complete class rework. Many people would be displeased or whatnot because they bought the game with a class with a clones and butterflies, meanwhile anet made it that way where 90% of playerbase suck against it competitive modes,so mesmer players are highly displeased too with all complaints around

Can only speak for myself. Would prefer mesmer without clones and phantasms, a mechanic that only cripples mesmers themselves. Need 3 clones alive to hit as much as other professions pressing a button.Of course we would have less noobs complaining but I'm not saying they shouldnt do this, they simply wont do it, ever.

[Delofasht.4231]

A full redesign at this point seems terrible, as is I lost my favored bunker build of really old, and the builds we have are fun to play, but lack the power of other professions pressing one or two buttons. We have to press like a dozen to do what others do with 2, and that would be fine, except that all of our damage is easily avoided and much of their damage is not. Balance doesn’t mean doing the same with each press, but being at least playing by the same rules, if so many abilities are unavoidable or very difficult to avoid, some of a Mesmer abilities should as well.

That said, my solution to shatter and clones was to have damage dealing shatters run to the Mesmer instead of at the enemy, shattering to bolstering the next attack applying the effect of the shatter (Mind Wrack damage or CoF Confusion stacks). Diversion would remain running at the enemy (it is crowd control and should be more easily avoided). Increased reliability of damage while also making more counterplay opportunities for perceptive opponents. Dodge at clones running at you, block or other defensive if they run to the Mesmer (who is now easily spotted when going for damage). Then lining up damage for after the enemy tries to avoid some other ability becomes and actual play.

The above shifts the damage away from clones and to the Mesmer to do their damage instead. It also opens the door for holding the attack for after the defensive the enemy pops to wear off... just counterplay options and potential for both parties.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Although I would like a redesign, preferably one that gets rid of clones and phantasms so baddies can't qq about clutter, it's not going to happen, from here on its all downhill.And just imagine all qq if mesmer was redesign "it's que second redesign mesmer gets and profession X got none, ANet's favourite child yadda yadda"More over this will nullify their past rework. Also this would be a complete class rework. Many people would be displeased or whatnot because they bought the game with a class with a clones and butterflies, meanwhile anet made it that way where 90% of playerbase suck against it competitive modes,so mesmer players are highly displeased too with all complaints around

Can only speak for myself. Would prefer mesmer without clones and phantasms, a mechanic that only cripples mesmers themselves. Need 3 clones alive to hit as much as other professions pressing a button.

Frankly, me too. We need the clones alive, they fall to easy to cleave/AoE, and only newbies fall for them.

Would rather see clones removed, and F1-F3 shatters to be re-worked into GW2 versions of Mind Wrack, Empathy and Arcane Larceny respectively. Obviously, things would need to be adjusted for the fact that other than Revenant GW2 does not use energy.

F4 and F5 can stay as is (as they don't do damage and already have useful effects) and just have their duration adjusted to account for no more clones.

Phantasms can stay as is, and just go away when they are done. Maybe do a little damage in AoE (like, 240 radius tops) when they die.

Then our damage and utility would not be dependent on minions that die in a strong wind, and the people that don't know how to tell AI attacks and movement from a player would stop crying for our constant nerfs.

[Delofasht.4231]

So, this whole thread pretty much revolves around burden of knowledge when playing against Mesmer due to clones, and Mesmer being reliant on clone production to do damage. What if they were to make clones untargetable, do no damage and apply no conditions, and funnel that damage into shatters that make the next Mesmer attack do extra damage or CC. This is kind of a fusion of my existing suggestion but also solves the issues with clones never reaching their targets and clones confusing new players simultaneously.

Such an idea shifts damage from AI to player control and timing, provides multiple counterplay options in active and passive defenses for enemies, and reduces visual health bar clutter. Ta da, problems solved, targeting and damage issues both resolved, tuning can focus on shatter damage output reliability increase and damage taken by the Mesmer being increased as clones no longer likely to take a hit intended for the Mesmer.

Of course the argument generally against such ideas is that this would have already been considered by the dev team. It may have, but at a point in the game where such changes were wholly unnecessary or extreme.

[Xstein.2187]

THESE ARE NOT PROBLEMS(read why below)

I feel pretty double sided on a few issues in this thread right now. While I would absolutely love a build that doesn't involve phantasms or clones for several reasons, there are a couple of things that I think the people in this thread should realize.

1. After the phantasm rework, mesmer can hardly be said to be reliant on AI anymore. When you click the phantasm button, it summons a phantasms that does an attack, and that is pretty much it. The phantasm is no longer AI that attacks consistently over and over again. Summoning a phantasm to do an attack by pressing 3 is no different than the mesmer itself (or any other profession) doing an attack by pressing 3. Both can be telegraphed and both provide a single attack that the opponent can dodge. Theoretically, the only difference anymore is the animation in which that attack is conducted. Same with clones. While the clone ambush attacks are more confusing than other attacks, they are still not technically AI as the attack is fulling determined by the actions of the player. If this is a problem, it is the confusion involved with the attack or difficulties involved with dodging the attack, not that it is AI, as it is not technically AI like the phantasms of the past or minions of a necromancer that DO attack on their own.

2. There is plenty of counter play to clones, from interrupting skills that create clones, to cleaving down or killing the clones, to dodging the shatter attacks. Saying there is a problem with mesmer due to a lack of counter play is simply not true. While there may be problems, a lack of possible counter play isn't one of them (besides perhaps burst chrono due to Lost time, but that's it)

3. Confusing players is the whole point of the mesmer profession. Even if clones are removed from mesmer, I would still want the class to 'confuse' and 'mess with' the opponent. Those are the types of play styles I like to play in almost all game types and it is one of the reason I chose to play mesmer so much in this game. It is even in the profession class description. "They weave deception magic that seeks to confound, disorient and dumbfound their enemies."

If players are getting 'confused' by mesmer, it just means they aren't learning the counter-play and have much to learn. Helz, you can even set up your key binds to instantly retarget the mesmer after you targeted it the first time. This makes things like direct detargeting and using invisibility to detergent utterly useless as long is the opponent sets up their controls correctly and targets the mesmer before the fight begins.

Yes, relying less on clones is good for a new elite spec, but not for the reason of catering in to players concerns that the class is 'too confusing to play against'. There will always be aspects of classes that players complain about. It doesn't matter if mesmer is or isn't reliant on clones. As long as mesmer maintains the 'essence' of what the class is all about, there will always be complaints, regardless of weather or not clones are involved. Avoiding confusion has just as much merit as avoiding attacks. There are lots of games that have play styles that the gw2 mesmer is 'attempting' to emulate. I've said it before, but I can give a rat's kitten about how good players are at avoiding confusion or how much they don't like getting confused. If Anet chooses to move away from mesmer's essence or character in the future by catering in to complaints by new players who want to complain first instead of learn, I'll just move on to another game that does except this play style. Other players getting confused is NOT a problem of the mesmer profession and is not a problem for the devs or Anet, it is a problem of the players for being self entitled and choosing not to try to learn how to play.The majority of the old players of gw2 don't even have a problem with this.

4. However, I would like to see a future elite specialization that doesn't rely of clones to do damage. However, this would have to due with a personal enjoyment from playing a mesmer build that is more reliable (not reliant on clones) and a different play style. It has nothing to do with the past mesmer nerf posts and cries we have heard in the past.

[Delofasht.4231]

To me, that clearly illustrates WHY they are a problem, because it is the perception of the masses, and that has more sway over the balance of the profession as a whole than it has any right to. This is why they should remove elements that are perceived as a problem and replace them in such a way that they are not a problem. The defense for people who liked Phantasms that never died was “oh but they are so easy to see, dodge, and destroy.”, which is what is now being used for clones.

To this point, as long as clones are used to "confound" enemies, the power they hold is always going to be viewed as a problem and honestly as a weakness to the design of the Mesmer. Make them untargetable/unkillable, do no damage, and be a visual indicator of the Mesmer's potential damage/crowd control at any given point in time. More clones, means more danger. That allows them to adjust our defensives based around our having clones appropriately, without having to design for them not being up ever (AoE spam killing them all) or being up all the time (no AoE or targeting of the clones taken place by enemy players).

Edit: This may not be the most popular opinion of our profession, and it is funny that is nearly the same things I said about 7 years ago. We were balanced around Deceptive Evasion and clones existing, so builds that didn't rely on it were generally accepted as weaker. People complained about the same things regarding Mesmers back then as well. It seems we will always be linked to clones and their annoyances to other players and our weakness being reliant on their existence.

[Mikkel.8427]

Someone posted this really old interview in the PvP section:https://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/17/guild-wars-interview/I immediately thought of this thread. Particularly @Obtena.7952 views on the weight of player opinion on balance.

Direct Quote from the interview:"Honestly, pulling stats on skills doesn’t give us a lot of useful information re: skill usage. The community does a great job of telling us what their problems are. Often player input can be more useful than pulling stats or looking at metrics. In terms of lessons learned, we’ve found that the solution for balance issues is to look for the root problem. The answer to a problem with Skill A may not be to nerf that skill, but to nerf Skill B or adjust a game mechanic like Soul Reaping or buff stacking. So the real key is washing away the symptoms to find what the real illness is. We want to treat the core disease, not just the symptoms."

This is Lindsey Murdock talking about GW1 balance and the lessons they learned that would be brought over to GW2 production. So, its totally possible their strategies for balancing in GW2 have evolved since then.... but I doubt it.

[Xstein.2187]

@"Mikkel.8427" said:Someone posted this really old interview in the PvP section:https://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/17/guild-wars-interview/I immediately thought of this thread. Particularly @Obtena.7952 views on the weight of player opinion on balance.

Direct Quote from the interview:"Honestly, pulling stats on skills doesn’t give us a lot of useful information re: skill usage. The community does a great job of telling us what their problems are. Often player input can be more useful than pulling stats or looking at metrics. In terms of lessons learned, we’ve found that the solution for balance issues is to look for the root problem. The answer to a problem with Skill A may not be to nerf that skill, but to nerf Skill B or adjust a game mechanic like Soul Reaping or buff stacking. So the real key is washing away the symptoms to find what the real illness is. We want to treat the core disease, not just the symptoms."

This is Lindsey Murdock talking about GW1 balance and the lessons they learned that would be brought over to GW2 production. So, its totally possible their strategies for balancing in GW2 have evolved since then.... but I doubt it.

lmao, and how is that implementation going? Based on the last several balance patches, you would think that they thought core mesmer trait lines were the root of the problem.

p.s. not going to comment on the first part (balance wise), as that is obviously what helped us get into this mess.

[ZeteCommander.4937]

Excellent. I'm looking forward to redesign shatter of mirage.

[Daishi.6027]

Dune cloak change is pretty telling of the double standards. Don't get me wrong I'm glad it's going in this direction however, with the misnomer of "being utility" compared to the offense and defense aside; this change doesn't offer enough.

Infinite horizon is offensive for Condi builds, but offers very little apart from split surge on power. With the exception of interrupts on leap, and everything that scales off of that. However, without those traits it loses a lot of it's offensive potential. (also pretty sure power block is bugged.)

But this new Dune cloak could have offered real damage for power builds, opposite to having IH boost condi; except A-net is literally halfassing it.(Also we all know EM is just dead, I don't know why they think Exhaust is fair or even makes "defensive", it's like they don't know how their class functions, compared to something like thief that can get hard endurance recovery lol)

Dune Cloak: This trait has been reworked and new visual effects have been added. It now attacks at the end of Mirage Cloak rather than the beginning. Additionally, its damage has been increased by 100%, and instead of inflicting bleeding it now removes a boon from up to 5 foes on hit. The mirage gains a copy of any boon removed.

Okay so we get a 1.0 Coefficient attack on dodge that steals boons, as a GM trait. Also 180 radius, means that we're not going to be stealling to many boons unless everyone is stacked nice and tightly on eachother.

Is it fair when compared to reckless dodge, which is an adept minor, hits at a coefficent of 1.5 AND is UNBLOCKABLE and stacks might.

I don't know about you guys, But I don't think a boon strip is superior to unblockable with 50% damage + might as a GM trait.

Dune cloak needs at least +166% - 200% (1.33 - 1.5 coefficient) to be reasonable damage, OR inherent unblockable to at least be competitive.But really it should have both since it's a GM trait and not a freaking adept minor.

Or okay A-net wants it to be utility, fine, leave it as 1.0 steal 2 boons, make it unblockable. I don't see why you give an inferior adept trait as a GM to another class, especially when power mirage has no representation in PvE, and is mediocre at best in PvP.

Edit: LOL I guess I should have read the "The mirage gains a copy of any boon removed." because it doesn't even truly steal the boon, just gives you whatever duration it wants. 10/10 bias a-net.

[ZhouX.8742]

@"Daishi.6027" said:Dune cloak change is pretty telling of the double standards. Don't get me wrong I'm glad it's going in this direction however, with the misnomer of "being utility" compared to the offense and defense aside; this change doesn't offer enough.

Infinite horizon is offensive for Condi builds, but offers very little apart from split surge on power. With the exception of interrupts on leap, and everything that scales off of that. However, without those traits it loses a lot of it's offensive potential. (also pretty sure power block is bugged.)

But this new Dune cloak could have offered real damage for power builds, opposite to having IH boost condi; except A-net is literally halfassing it.(Also we all know EM is just dead, I don't know why they think Exhaust is fair or even makes "defensive", it's like they don't know how their class functions, compared to something like thief that can get hard endurance recovery lol)

Dune Cloak: This trait has been reworked and new visual effects have been added. It now attacks at the end of Mirage Cloak rather than the beginning. Additionally, its damage has been increased by 100%, and instead of inflicting bleeding it now removes a boon from up to 5 foes on hit. The mirage gains a copy of any boon removed.

Okay so we get a 1.0 Coefficient attack on dodge that steals boons, as a GM trait. Also 180 radius, means that we're not going to be stealling to many boons unless everyone is stacked nice and tightly on eachother.

Is it fair when compared to reckless dodge, which is an adept minor, hits at a coefficent of 1.5 AND is UNBLOCKABLE and stacks might.

I don't know about you guys, But I don't think a boon strip is superior to unblockable with 50% damage + might as a GM trait.

Dune cloak needs at least +166% - 200% (1.33 - 1.5 coefficient) to be reasonable damage, OR inherent unblockable to at least be competitive.But really it should have both since it's a GM trait and not a freaking adept minor.

Or okay A-net wants it to be utility, fine, leave it as 1.0 steal 2 boons, make it unblockable. I don't see why you give an inferior adept trait as a GM to another class, especially when power mirage has no representation in PvE, and is mediocre at best in PvP.

Edit: LOL I guess I should have read the "The mirage gains a copy of any boon removed." because it doesn't even truly steal the boon, just gives you whatever duration it wants. 10/10 bias a-net.

In the context of PvP:

Mesmer is a difficult class to balance, along with thief. I think those 2 coupled with ranger are the 3 hardest classes to balance in the game, but the top 2 are mesmer and thief because of their unique style over every other class. They really have no direction in a general balancing sense. I say ranger only because you can put a base ranger into a match, equip a longbow on him and people will still complain even if he doesn't have an amulet and utilities. People just hate the class which in turn makes balancing difficult on it.

Anyways,

They need to buff portal , since thief has a duo portal that also gives invis now. Honestly revert Chrono re-work, whatever idea they have for this Chrono needs to be reverted and take it back to the drawing board and look at small adjustment / increases instead of re-working an entire elite spec in the name of "tradeoffs".

Chrono got destroyed and EM needed to be nerfed, let's be real here. That trait was probably one of the most broken traits next to improvisation - which still remains yet to be nerfed actually which is surprising, and will most likely be nerfed very soon and it will kill S/D thief basically because that one trait basically carries meta thief atm.

I don't agree with how they nerfed EM though, let's keep in mind thief got that same exhaust treatment on top of a "swipe" nerf which killed DD builds entirely, atleast you can still run mirage. It's just not AS easy as it used to be, it was brain dead before.

Comparing will get you no where, thief has been nerfed and adjusted 2-fold over what mesmer has seen, but it doesn't appear like it has because it has such a unique gameplay pattern in the context of PvP and has had more build exposure than mesmer..

Besides, they both fill 2 entirely different roles and the only reason mesmer complains about thief is because Ectoplasm exists. Counters should exist in the game. It's healthy.

They should buff core mesmer and undo what they did to Chrono, buff little things ... How is it a tradeoff when you literally destroy an entire elite spec and give nothing in return? It's just classic pigeonhole balance.

Also rampage should have seen a stronger nerf, there is not a skill even on ranger that I've seen in the game that is more of an epitome of brain dead keyboard spamming carry than rampage. It's very nature is just horrible design.

[Daishi.6027]

@ZhouX.8742 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:Dune cloak change is pretty telling of the double standards. Don't get me wrong I'm glad it's going in this direction however, with the misnomer of "being utility" compared to the offense and defense aside; this change doesn't offer enough.

Infinite horizon is offensive for Condi builds, but offers very little apart from split surge on power. With the exception of interrupts on leap, and everything that scales off of that. However, without those traits it loses a lot of it's offensive potential. (also pretty sure power block is bugged.)

But this new Dune cloak could have offered real damage for power builds, opposite to having IH boost condi; except A-net is literally halfassing it.(Also we all know EM is just dead, I don't know why they think Exhaust is fair or even makes "defensive", it's like they don't know how their class functions, compared to something like thief that can get hard endurance recovery lol)

Dune Cloak

:

This trait has been reworked and new visual effects have been added. It now attacks at the end of Mirage Cloak rather than the beginning. Additionally, its damage has been increased by 100%, and instead of inflicting bleeding it now removes a boon from up to 5 foes on hit. The mirage gains a copy of any boon removed.

Okay so we get a 1.0 Coefficient attack on dodge that steals boons,

as a GM trait.

Also 180 radius, means that we're not going to be stealling to many boons unless everyone is stacked nice and tightly on eachother.

Is it fair when compared to reckless dodge, which is an

adept minor

, hits at a coefficent of

1.5 AND is UNBLOCKABLE

and stacks might.

I don't know about you guys, But I don't think a boon strip is superior to unblockable with 50% damage + might as a GM trait.

Dune cloak needs at least +166% - 200% (1.33 - 1.5 coefficient) to be reasonable damage, OR inherent unblockable to at least be competitive.But really it should have both since it's a GM trait and not a freaking adept minor.

Or okay A-net wants it to be utility, fine, leave it as 1.0 steal 2 boons, make it unblockable. I don't see why you give an inferior adept trait as a GM to another class, especially when power mirage has no representation in PvE, and is mediocre at best in PvP.

Edit: LOL I guess I should have read the "The mirage gains a copy of any boon removed." because it doesn't even truly steal the boon, just gives you whatever duration it wants. 10/10 bias a-net.

In the context of PvP:

Mesmer is a difficult class to balance, along with thief. I think those 2 coupled with ranger are the 3 hardest classes to balance in the game, but the top 2 are mesmer and thief because of their unique style over every other class. They really have no direction in a general balancing sense. I say ranger only because you can put a base ranger into a match, equip a longbow on him and people will still complain even if he doesn't have an amulet and utilities. People just hate the class which in turn makes balancing difficult on it.

Anyways,

They need to buff portal , since thief has a duo portal that also gives invis now. Honestly revert Chrono re-work, whatever idea they have for this Chrono needs to be reverted and take it back to the drawing board and look at small adjustment / increases instead of re-working an entire elite spec in the name of "tradeoffs".

Chrono got destroyed and

EM needed to be nerfed

, let's be real here. That trait was probably one of the most broken traits next to improvisation - which still remains yet to be nerfed actually which is surprising, and will most likely be nerfed very soon and it will kill S/D thief basically because that one trait basically carries meta thief atm.

I don't agree with how they nerfed EM though, let's keep in mind thief got that same exhaust treatment on top of a "swipe" nerf which killed DD builds entirely, atleast you can still run mirage. It's just not AS easy as it used to be, it was brain dead before.

Comparing will get you no where, thief has been nerfed and adjusted 2-fold over what mesmer has seen, but it doesn't appear like it has because it has such a unique gameplay pattern in the context of PvP and has had more build exposure than mesmer..

Besides, they both fill 2 entirely different roles and the only reason mesmer complains about thief is because Ectoplasm exists. Counters should exist in the game. It's healthy.

They should buff core mesmer and undo what they did to Chrono, buff little things ... How is it a tradeoff when you literally destroy an entire elite spec and give nothing in return? It's just classic pigeonhole balance.

Also rampage should have seen a stronger nerf, there is not a skill even on ranger that I've seen in the game that is more of an epitome of brain dead keyboard spamming carry than rampage. It's very nature is just horrible design.

I think we agree with where EM stands, I too believe it needed to be nerfed but the way it was didn't make any sense and just killed it. My point regarding thief was more a gripe with A-net not knowing what they are doing, by implementing nerfs with something like exhaust; when at least endurance numbers are tempered by Theif/DD's mechanics.

My bigger issue and comparison was to warrior, who is a sturdy body, does massive unblockable damage, has dominated the meta before everyone really dug into mirage hard, and historically has dictated the meta out of prowess instead of, by comparison; mirage's historic delegation to portal/moa bot. Yet A-nets response to Dune Cloak was to implement an inferior version of a warrior adept trait that doesn't even have the courtesy to be a true boon steal.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@ZhouX.8742 said:

@"Daishi.6027" said:Dune cloak change is pretty telling of the double standards. Don't get me wrong I'm glad it's going in this direction however, with the misnomer of "being utility" compared to the offense and defense aside; this change doesn't offer enough.

Infinite horizon is offensive for Condi builds, but offers very little apart from split surge on power. With the exception of interrupts on leap, and everything that scales off of that. However, without those traits it loses a lot of it's offensive potential. (also pretty sure power block is bugged.)

But this new Dune cloak could have offered real damage for power builds, opposite to having IH boost condi; except A-net is literally halfassing it.(Also we all know EM is just dead, I don't know why they think Exhaust is fair or even makes "defensive", it's like they don't know how their class functions, compared to something like thief that can get hard endurance recovery lol)

Dune Cloak

:

This trait has been reworked and new visual effects have been added. It now attacks at the end of Mirage Cloak rather than the beginning. Additionally, its damage has been increased by 100%, and instead of inflicting bleeding it now removes a boon from up to 5 foes on hit. The mirage gains a copy of any boon removed.

Okay so we get a 1.0 Coefficient attack on dodge that steals boons,

as a GM trait.

Also 180 radius, means that we're not going to be stealling to many boons unless everyone is stacked nice and tightly on eachother.

Is it fair when compared to reckless dodge, which is an

adept minor

, hits at a coefficent of

1.5 AND is UNBLOCKABLE

and stacks might.

I don't know about you guys, But I don't think a boon strip is superior to unblockable with 50% damage + might as a GM trait.

Dune cloak needs at least +166% - 200% (1.33 - 1.5 coefficient) to be reasonable damage, OR inherent unblockable to at least be competitive.But really it should have both since it's a GM trait and not a freaking adept minor.

Or okay A-net wants it to be utility, fine, leave it as 1.0 steal 2 boons, make it unblockable. I don't see why you give an inferior adept trait as a GM to another class, especially when power mirage has no representation in PvE, and is mediocre at best in PvP.

Edit: LOL I guess I should have read the "The mirage gains a copy of any boon removed." because it doesn't even truly steal the boon, just gives you whatever duration it wants. 10/10 bias a-net.

In the context of PvP:

Mesmer is a difficult class to balance, along with thief. I think those 2 coupled with ranger are the 3 hardest classes to balance in the game, but the top 2 are mesmer and thief because of their unique style over every other class. They really have no direction in a general balancing sense. I say ranger only because you can put a base ranger into a match, equip a longbow on him and people will still complain even if he doesn't have an amulet and utilities. People just hate the class which in turn makes balancing difficult on it.

Anyways,

They need to buff portal , since thief has a duo portal that also gives invis now. Honestly revert Chrono re-work, whatever idea they have for this Chrono needs to be reverted and take it back to the drawing board and look at small adjustment / increases instead of re-working an entire elite spec in the name of "tradeoffs".

Chrono got destroyed and

EM needed to be nerfed

, let's be real here. That trait was probably one of the most broken traits next to improvisation - which still remains yet to be nerfed actually which is surprising, and will most likely be nerfed very soon and it will kill S/D thief basically because that one trait basically carries meta thief atm.

I don't agree with how they nerfed EM though, let's keep in mind thief got that same exhaust treatment on top of a "swipe" nerf which killed DD builds entirely, atleast you can still run mirage. It's just not AS easy as it used to be, it was brain dead before.

Comparing will get you no where, thief has been nerfed and adjusted 2-fold over what mesmer has seen, but it doesn't appear like it has because it has such a unique gameplay pattern in the context of PvP and has had more build exposure than mesmer..

Besides, they both fill 2 entirely different roles and the only reason mesmer complains about thief is because Ectoplasm exists. Counters should exist in the game. It's healthy.

They should buff core mesmer and undo what they did to Chrono, buff little things ... How is it a tradeoff when you literally destroy an entire elite spec and give nothing in return? It's just classic pigeonhole balance.

Also rampage should have seen a stronger nerf, there is not a skill even on ranger that I've seen in the game that is more of an epitome of brain dead keyboard spamming carry than rampage. It's very nature is just horrible design.

EM wasn't nerfed, was smiter's booned.DD's removing MIC trait was arguably a buff, you now are exhausted less depending on the MIC removed, if you removed the 3 you get the same duration as before. Plus what Daishi said, dd has ways of dealing with exhaust, mirage doesn't have any (and there were so many suggestions to change EM into playable or giving ways to counter the exhaustion).Regarding counters yes they should exist, in a team based game, which this isn't even remotely. But even then ecto isn't a counter, is more of an I win button especially if you have two of them to consume.

[Daishi.6027]

So please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like only mesmer is being imposed with "trade offs".

(Which I find quite funny since Core mes is kind of a trade off all on it's own, the only reason why Chrono was so good was because it fixed the issues of a under developed class.)

[Mikkel.8427]

@"Daishi.6027" said:So please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like only mesmer is being imposed with "trade offs".

(Which I find quite funny since Core mes is kind of a trade off all on it's own, the only reason why Chrono was so good was because it fixed the issues of a under developed class.)

Want to know what's sad?After spending the last couple of days playtesting Chrono builds on and off, playing core feels REALLY good.